Feedback on Jakarn.

zetavivern · November 2022

When the next chapter comes out, can we please not get sexually harassed by NPCs all the time? It's not funny at this point. Half of interactions with Jakarn start with him calling the player "good-looking" in smug tones and then continue to insinuate something else inappropriate. He was tolerable in ESO main quest, barely tolerable in Elsweyr, but this year he has just turned into some kind of maniac who can't keep it in his pants.

I realize that the whole year was supposed to be more adult-themed, and it's implemented well in some side quests, but Jakarn is trying way too hard with his sexual advances on the player character.

P.S. To players who like Jakarn. I don't suggest getting rid of him, I'm pointing out that NPCs could be done a bit better in that regard.
"But I like his advances" - Good for you. Not everyone does. I asked my female friends and they find it disgusting.
"But there are people like that, so it's realistic" - It's also realistic for my character to set him on fire, but somehow I don't get that option. Here's an idea: in the future devs could create characters who behave like that, but give the player an option to reject their advances instead of obediently taking it. It's called MMORPG, is it not?

spartaxoxo · November 2022

I think "good looking" is a cute nicknames he has for the vestige. It's his catch phrase practically and I wouldn't personally want him to stop using it. But I agree with you about his overall characterization in High Isle. He does come off more like a creep than a lady's man in High Isle quests. He was always a massive flirt, a thief, and a ne'er do well, but he came more as a smooth talker than a creep before. He was a bit better about fighting too.

Anyway, prior to High Isle he was a pretty popular character even among women. Lots of talk about he was one of the hotter characters. Now, they kind of messed him up. As a woman, I liked him better before. I can't recall any dialogue where you asked him to stop flirting though, and I don't think he was in Blackwood?

Tandor · November 2022

Agreed. Less Jakarn please, more Stibbons

!

zetavivern · November 2022

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I don't think he was in Blackwood?

My mistake, it was actually Elsweyr.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I can't recall any dialogue where you asked him to stop flirting though

I'm almost sure I had this dialogue, but I can't find it now... In case I'm wrong I'll edit the post to avoid confusion, thanks for pointing that out.

Treselegant · November 2022

The problem with Jakarn in High Isle is that he's been reduced to a one note 'flirty bi rogue' in a way that that's actually a bit sad. When they brought him back for Elsywer he wasn't half as obnoxious and was more three dimensional - he still wasn't a complex person but he was more of a person at least. By the time High Isle prologue rolled round he'd been reduced a flat cutout. He was this one note, flat, 'flirty' rogue, who seemed to not understand consent and had all the charm of Mr Collins from Pride and Prejudice.

He really exemplifies two big issues ESO has with it's writing at the moment: reducing popular characters to the equivalent of a Disney land park character (look it's your favourite!) and not understanding how to write flirting in a way that doesn't make your players feel uncomfortable.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I think "good looking" is a cute nicknames he has for the vestige. It's his catch phrase practically and I wouldn't personally want him to stop using it. But I agree with you about his overall characterization in High Isle. He does come off more like a creep than a lady's man in High Isle quests. He was always a massive flirt, a thief, and a ne'er do well, but he came more as a smooth talker than a creep before. He was a bit better about fighting too.

Anyway, prior to High Isle he was a pretty popular character even among women. Lots of talk about he was one of the hotter characters. Now, they kind of messed him up. As a woman, I liked him better before. I can't recall any dialogue where you asked him to stop flirting though, and I don't think he was in Blackwood?

I think Darien and Jakarn made a lot of women (and men) feel seen in the game. It wasn't much but there was this tidbit of content that was aimed at you and generally it was fine. Darien was always better done in my opinion because of the option to turn down his advances but I get why Jakarn is more in your face - his flirtatiousness was his 'angle' as a thief and a rogue. I do think the base game tried to appeal to different types of people upon launch and as a lot of games barely acknowledge women gamers or gamers who like men, it garnered a pleasant feeling a for a lot of people. I don't get that feeling in the more recent dlc, the care just isn't there.

Ashryn · November 2022

More Stibbons? Goddess NO!

BretonMage · November 2022

Thank you, zetavivern. I'd love to be able to say to him, "Have a great life, please don't speak to me ever again."

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Anyway, prior to High Isle he was a pretty popular character even among women.

To be honest, I figured him for a creep even in the main quest. I think there's a place for all types of characters, but we don't need them brought back so often.

Treselegant wrote: »

I think Darien and Jarkarn made a lot of women (and men) feel seen in the game. It wasn't much but there was this tidbit of content that was aimed at you and generally it was fine.

It's a bit sad, though, because women get objectified already. We don't need more of that to be seen.

Soarora · November 2022

Treselegant wrote: »

Darien was always better done in my opinion because of the option to turn down his advances but I get why Jarkarn is more in your face - his flirtatiousness was his 'angle' as a thief and a rogue.

Very much seconding this. I haven’t met base game Jakarn to my knowledge but his characterization this year made me hate him. Not “love to hate him” like zos mentioned on streams, I just do not like him. But I can definitely understand the idea of a flirty rogue so maybe I’ll do his base game quests and give him a chance…
I do heavily agree with Darien being good because you can reject him. He’s actually one of my favorite npcs.

TaSheen · November 2022

I've never found him bearable even. I did the Stros M'kai quest line on one character, and never again - because of Jakarn. I'm doing the High Isle quest on a new account new CP 300 character. So far he's not absolutely smarmy to her - which may be due to her never meeting him prior.

I won't be doing the High Isle quest line on my other mains though. This is why I don't want returning characters - after Eveli, and her annoying self in Blackwood, Jakarn is more than I can stomach.

Frogmother · November 2022

there should be the option to tell him something like "if you cal me once more "good looking", i will break you a few bones" .. or someting less agressive and from there on he calls us just "hey you".
So the players can decide how he talks to us.

Treselegant · November 2022

BretonMage wrote: »

Thank you, zetavivern. I'd love to be able to say to him, "Have a great life, please don't speak to me ever again."

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Anyway, prior to High Isle he was a pretty popular character even among women.

To be honest, I figured him for a creep even in the main quest. I think there's a place for all types of characters, but we don't need them brought back so often.

Treselegant wrote: »

I think Darien and Jarkarn made a lot of women (and men) feel seen in the game. It wasn't much but there was this tidbit of content that was aimed at you and generally it was fine.

It's a bit sad, though, because women get objectified already. We don't need more of that to be seen.

In the base game, I don't think it was really objectifying. Jakarn was never leering at my character's bottom like some players do. It was fairly non threatening the way it was done to start with. It's a more of a hey, we recognise that women who like men exist and may like this. Not that it was always super well done but I'd rather the game acknowledge my existence than pretend that every gamer is dude who loves 'sassy dunmer' types. There is a middle ground between Mr Collins Jakarn and having the option to flirt with male characters (or turn them down if you want).

tomofhyrule · November 2022

Tandor wrote: »

Agreed. Less Jakarn please, more Stibbons !

...yes, because having a character can be read as an abuse victim used for comedy is so much better.

I have to admit - I hate the Stibbons/Lady Laurent quests. A lot of my friends read them as having a relationship, but my first read is that she is obscenely emotionally abusive to him, and is only gets more awkward from there. And then they're used for comedy because "ha ha male abuse victim is funny." I can't imagine an equivalent Lord Stibbons/Maid Clarisse line would be anywhere near as well received.

But I know I'm in the minority seeing it that way, so I just deal with it when I see them, but I will admit that I just speed through their quests so I can get it over as soon as I can.

In terms of the characters, I think one of the issues is that most characters are being Flanderized down into one-dimensional versions of themselves. Even for as much as I hate Lady Laurent, I didn't really have a problem with her the first time we met her in Glenumbra. It was really the DLCs that turned her entire character into nothing but "hyper toxic emotional abuser of Stibbons." Jakarn pretty well went the same way where his "flirty rogue" schtick in basegame just became "obnoxious horndog" by now.

I would like the characters to keep some nuance. I does make things more interesting.

zetavivern · November 2022

tomofhyrule wrote: »

I have to admit - I hate the Stibbons/Lady Laurent quests. A lot of my friends read them as having a relationship, but my first read is that she is obscenely emotionally abusive to him, and is only gets more awkward from there. And then they're used for comedy because "ha ha male abuse victim is funny." I can't imagine an equivalent Lord Stibbons/Maid Clarisse line would be anywhere near as well received.

You have a point here, though, to be fair, in one of those quests (in Orsinium, I think) it is shown that she actually cares and worries for him when he's in actual danger, and she only returns to her dismissive/abusive state once he's relatively safe. I think it can be loosely characterized as a love/hate relationship (though definitely an abusive one).

BretonMage · November 2022

Treselegant wrote: »

BretonMage wrote: »

Thank you, zetavivern. I'd love to be able to say to him, "Have a great life, please don't speak to me ever again."

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Anyway, prior to High Isle he was a pretty popular character even among women.

To be honest, I figured him for a creep even in the main quest. I think there's a place for all types of characters, but we don't need them brought back so often.

Treselegant wrote: »

I think Darien and Jarkarn made a lot of women (and men) feel seen in the game. It wasn't much but there was this tidbit of content that was aimed at you and generally it was fine.

It's a bit sad, though, because women get objectified already. We don't need more of that to be seen.

In the base game, I don't think it was really objectifying. Jakarn was never leering at my character's bottom like some players do. It was fairly non threatening the way it was done to start with. It's a more of a hey, we recognise that women who like men exist and may like this. Not that it was always super well done but I'd rather the game acknowledge my existence than pretend that every gamer is dude who loves 'sassy dunmer' types. There is a middle ground between Mr Collins Jarkarn and having the option to flirt with male characters (or turn them down if you want).

Oh, I didn't mean he was doing the objectifying (in the base game at least). It's just that women already get that kind of attention, sometimes unwanted. So I don't think it's really needed, and it may even be unwelcome to some.

I wouldn't mind the opportunity to start a romance, though, but as the competent/heroic vestige you are, not just someone in a skirt.

AcadianPaladin · November 2022

There is a long list of characters in the base game that I either enjoyed or didn't mind. Every Single Time one of them has reappeared in a dlc, I have disliked them. From being so relieved to finish the dragons to be rid of Sai Sahan to being saddened how Eveli went from a neat character to an irritating hand-holder whose only purpose seemed to be to review what task in the questline was next. Jakarn is a fine example as he grew from mildly irritating to quite annoying. The list of casualties included Lyranth, Lyris, Verandis, Raz, on and on.

TLDR: Please don't recycle characters. There is enough time between content releases to create new ones. Further, recycling characters into new content 'breaks' the 'start anywhere you want' concept since you don't have the background on them that can only be gleaned by playing in order of release.

NotaDaedraWorshipper · November 2022

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Agreed. Less Jakarn please, more Stibbons !

...yes, because having a character can be read as an abuse victim used for comedy is so much better.

I have to admit - I hate the Stibbons/Lady Laurent quests. A lot of my friends read them as having a relationship, but my first read is that she is obscenely emotionally abusive to him, and is only gets more awkward from there. And then they're used for comedy because "ha ha male abuse victim is funny." I can't imagine an equivalent Lord Stibbons/Maid Clarisse line would be anywhere near as well received.

But I know I'm in the minority seeing it that way, so I just deal with it when I see them, but I will admit that I just speed through their quests so I can get it over as soon as I can.

In terms of the characters, I think one of the issues is that most characters are being Flanderized down into one-dimensional versions of themselves. Even for as much as I hate Lady Laurent, I didn't really have a problem with her the first time we met her in Glenumbra. It was really the DLCs that turned her entire character into nothing but "hyper toxic emotional abuser of Stibbons." Jakarn pretty well went the same way where his "flirty rogue" schtick in basegame just became "obnoxious horndog" by now.

I would like the characters to keep some nuance. I does make things more interesting.

Very much agreed on all of it. I hate double standards with a passion when it comes to abuse, and the "relationship" between Lady Laurent and Stibbons is not funny.

And as with all returning characters and even newly made ones it is turning worse with every new DLC and how one dimensional all characters are becoming. They are all walking caricatures of what they were at this point or some stereotype/trope. Character growth? What's that, let's remove it.

The writing in general doesn't help either, with how we now must have this side-kick character with us who is constantly holding our hand and repeat everything that is being said and is happening, despite us being right there, with a little quirky line thrown in to show their so called personality. No one talks the way they write dialogue lately! It's not a character, a person there helping you, it's more a walking, talking notepad.

I'm one who liked Jakarn at least a little. Having a bi male character is nice, even if the flirt-with-everything-scoundrel stereotype is a bit tiring. But he wasn't that bad until like with every other character lately they become a single trait ZOS deem to be the main on which makes them fun and popular to most players. It's as if we say we like potatoes with meatballs, gravy and sallad, and they proceed to only give us meatballs and nothing else every day. Or maybe more accurate, we say we like cake and they give us just flour, and maybe eggs.

Additionally, if a character is flirty we should have the option to turn it down/ask them to stop. Preferably politely if there's only one option for that. I remember a rather interesting character on the Gold Coast who made quite the innuendos and references to himself, but the only dialogue option we had about that was to do nothing or intimidate him which did not make me feel comfortable at all. Even my characters who disliked it would first ask him somewhat nicely to stop. Not threaten the man.

Fenris_Arainai · November 2022

That kind of attention from an NPC should always be opt-in. A dialogue option to reply/react in favour, otherwise NPC should be more neutral.

Jaimeh · November 2022

I've only started High Isle, but I didn't like Jakarn since Stros M'Kai, I find him really sleezy and aggravating. This type of aggressive flirting is not unique to him; other characters also lay it on thick sometimes, even the otherwise beloved Naryu/Darien (at least you had the option to turn their advances down at some point in the dialogues iirc), but I think Jakarn is extra sleazy. The thing is, the game features characters with all sorts of behaviours, and while it makes sense for 'bad NPCs' like daedra for example, to say something really nasty (and they do have a lot of random hair-rising quotes, which is fitting), I think it also makes sense that some supporting characters aren't perfect either, and they might have unpleasant sides to their personality. Just how some bad characters have redeeming features, or have been reformed, and so on. The game deals with a lot of problematic themes, I think Jakarn's personality fits into that, though probably unintentionally, since the writers just assume he's popular (I also think he suffers from the general poor writing we've had of late), and although it gives me the creeps, I see it as part of the array of personalities found in the game, and thankfully we have different supporting companions each year, so a better one might come along in the next story.

TaSheen · November 2022

jle30303 wrote: »

[snip]

Well, not so far. At least they haven't acknowledged mine as coming from an actual woman. Which I am.

[edited to remove quote]

Faulgor · November 2022

Honestly, I thought Lady Arabelle was much worse in this regard. I at least liked Jakarn's banter with other NPCs, especially Valessea who took none of his nonsense.

Tandor wrote: »

Agreed. Less Jakarn please, more Stibbons !

You mean the person that was actually sexually assaulted for comedic effect? If anything, he should only come back for us to find out he kicked "Lady" Laurent in the backside.

NotaDaedraWorshipper · November 2022

jle30303 wrote: »

[snip]

TaSheen wrote: »

jle30303 wrote: »

[snip]

Well, not so far. At least they haven't acknowledged mine as coming from an actual woman. Which I am.

There are plenty of women who have said to like him.

[edited by ZOS to remove quote] [Edited further by me to remove a part which was aimed at the removed quote which was not edited away]

I_killed_Vivec · November 2022

Jaimeh wrote: »

I've only started High Isle, but I didn't like Jakarn since Stros M'Kai, I find him really sleezy and aggravating. This type of aggressive flirting is not unique to him; other characters also lay it on thick sometimes, even the otherwise beloved Naryu/Darien (at least you had the option to turn their advances down at some point in the dialogues iirc), but I think Jakarn is extra sleazy. The thing is, the game features characters with all sorts of behaviours, and while it makes sense for 'bad NPCs' like daedra for example, to say something really nasty (and they do have a lot of random hair-rising quotes, which is fitting), I think it also makes sense that some supporting characters aren't perfect either, and they might have unpleasant sides to their personality. Just how some bad characters have redeeming features, or have been reformed, and so on. The game deals with a lot of problematic themes, I think Jakarn's personality fits into that, though probably unintentionally, since the writers just assume he's popular (I also think he suffers from the general poor writing we've had of late), and although it gives me the creeps, I see it as part of the array of personalities found in the game, and thankfully we have different supporting companions each year, so a better one might come along in the next story.

Unfortunately I think this is the problem. Characters are being reduced in dimension each time we see them. It's almost as if the writers think "Let's use Jakarn for this... now what do we know about him?" and all they came up with is "flirt". Yes he's a flirt, a rogue, a thief, a bit oo a bit ah, but for the purposes of the story his main characteristic is flirt. So instead of us having to work out the implications of working with (and maybe being friends with) a morally dubious character for the greater good, all we are left with is the annoying flirt.

zetavivern · November 2022

NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »

There are plenty of women who have said to like him. And how is he misogynist?

The problem here is not that he flirts with your character. The problem is that he keeps flirting. And keeps flirting. And again, and again, and you can't stop it, can't tell him to stop, can't punch him. You either obediently take it or turn around and leave without completing the chapter's main quest.The game just assumes that you're okay with everything he says.

I had a similar problem with Thieves Guild. At some point Velsa decides to just verbally abuse my character for several quests in a row (to sum it up - suggesting that Vestige is a complete idiot in quite a few ways). The only available responce? Just swallow it and be her puppet. At this point I just said "nope" and abandoned the whole questline for a year or so. Because I am not Stibbons.

It's not cool to give the player negative experience unless you also give some good ways to respond and turn it into positive experience.

[edit to remove typos]

NotaDaedraWorshipper · November 2022

zetavivern wrote: »

NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »

There are plenty of women who have said to like him. And how is he misogynist?

The problem here is not that he flirts with your character. The problem is that he keeps flirting. And keeps flirting. And again, and again, and you can't stop it, can't tell him to stop, can't punch him. You either obediently take it or turn around and leave without completing the chapter's main quest.The game just assumes that you're okay with everything he says.

I had a simlar problem with Thieves Guild. At some point Velsa decides to just verbally abuse my character for several quests in a row (to sum it up - suggesting that Vestige is a complete idiot in quite a few ways). The only available responce? Just swallow it and be her puppet. At this point I just said "nope" and abandoned the whole questline for a year or so. Because I am not Stibbons.

It's not cool to give the player negative experience unless you also give some good ways to respond and turn it into positive experience.

As with other flirty npc, there should be an option to tell them to stop/say you're not interested, for those who don't want to be hit on. Which we have had in the past, and I pointed out in my comment from earlier.

Being lacking in dialogue options for roleplaying is an issue in general for ESO, especially in later dlcs (We are forced to be a senile moron), and not exclusive to Jakarn.

spartaxoxo · November 2022

Lady Laurent and Stibbons are heavily hinted to be sneaking around in a romantic relationship, and actually care for each other deeply. The whole ordering around thing is just their thing they are into or perhaps the way they act to try and keep things appropriate between them to their stations (she's a noble lady and he's a manservant). They don't ever elaborate what it is, but it is strongly hinted that it's not what it looks like at first glance. The two of them would prefer you think it's a pushy and abusive noble and her faithful, put upon manservant. But, it's not the case when it's just the two of them. They're putting on some sort of act.

In Coldharbor, we get to see how she reacts we see her real concern for Stibbons when she's not as confident that she'll be able to get him out of trouble. He says she's going to punish him for leaving her all alone, because he can't just leave her all alone like that. And in High Isle, we get to see his genuine concern for her and his take on their relationship. His jealous of the sea captain that posseses her, talks about her perfect features, and offers you a whole year salary to free her. But, takes offense if you ask if they're in a relationship.

deGarcia · November 2022

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

Jakarn is a fine example as he grew from mildly irritating to quite annoying. The list of casualties included Lyranth, Lyris, Verandis, Raz, on and on.

This. Thank you.

I'm sure that bringing up all the Morrowind-CC-Summerset arc is old by now, but that was the best example of reocurring character appearence - in case of Naryu, who's used as a foreshadowing ever since the Dark Brotherhood DLC. We also have good quests for Ashur and Razum-Dar in Elsweyr, too, at least at the top of my head. But Jakarn's dialogues only made me do one thing in both the Q1 dungeons and Chapter - skip and run. And then he was completely absent in Q4 - not a bad thing for me personally, but it was a little weird.
All of these characters (especially Valsirenn in Blackwood, smh) lose all their original character the moment they're put into a new DLC. I'm not sure why and I won't speculate, but maybe instead of adding another Rigurt and Stibbons quest we could have the screen time for other characters and their development? They're all kind of.. stagnating, nothing really is moving forward and many parts of the game feel like a filler-in episode. So it's best to either properly focus on new characters or come back to the idea of story arcs of older characters.

And also the way Verandis was zip-tied to the whole story of Greymoor, ''resurrecting'' several times in a row. Why? The urge to keep one character alive made several ''this doesn't make sense'' holes.

I appreciate the work behind the scenes for this game, Casca and Za'ji are definetely an example of a good part about this year's story, but many other things are not.

upd: Not a reocurring character, but wanted to note that Captain Siravaen is the best part of Firesong, and a good example of what new characters should be like. A maormer who actually knows word ''maormer'', has her principles and remembers who Orgnum is, unlike all the other ''evil because evil sea elves''.

SammyKhajit · November 2022

At Stros M’Kai, Jakarn wasn’t as bad with the flirting, and also, it was amusing to see all the people infatuated with him, only to have them turn the tables on him when we get to Betnikh. In that regard, there was a check and balance.

In High Isle, the writers very disappointedly decide to make Jakarn an obnoxious creep with his relentless pursuit of Valessea. If she had turned him into a spider or some such in retribution, that would’ve been fine poetic justice. But instead, the writing team seems to think it’s ok for Jakarn to get away with harassment.

This one doesn’t mind being called good looking. It’s a statement of the fact

spartaxoxo · November 2022

tomofhyrule wrote: »

In terms of the characters, I think one of the issues is that most characters are being Flanderized down into one-dimensional versions of themselves.

I think so too. I think they looked at the old quests and thought, "people liked this character a lot because he was flirty and there was a lot of angry women. So, let's dial this up to 11."

∆
But, what they failed to realize is that Jakarn was not an over the top flirt. He could go 5 seconds without flirting or extolling the virtues of his own beauty. And the women in the story were irritated with him, but NOT because he was sexually harassing them. They were mad because he was a thief who was using his pretty face to swindle them, and he was so good at it they were worried other ladies would fall for it, just as they had.

Jakarn wasn't a loser creep. He was the male version of a seductress. That's why I think so many women (and male attracted LGBT+ people) responded so positively to him the first time. It was nice to see that kind of character targeted towards us for a change. Hot dude, smooth, but utterly bad for you. Captain Kaleen can barely hide her contempt for him in Year of the Bretons content (should see how she talks about him in the dlc dungeons) but she actually respected his skill in Stros M'kai. Because it was just part of his thieving and scheming, not his only personality trait 24/7.

As for him chasing a girl who rejected him. The difference between Crafty Lerissa and Valessea that feels so different is that Lerissa makes it clear she's into it. She's not rejecting him because she doesn't like his advances, on the contrary she actually admits to encouraging them and finding them fun, and even considers settling down with him someday. She's doing so because she's not ready settle down just yet, and she knows he's not either. When they both get tired of adventuring, she thinks they may even end up settling down together and in the meantime he's a handsome face that might be fun to hookup with if they happen to be in the same port.

Valessea on the other hand thinks he's a pompous jerk who's to in love with himself to understand that someone else might not be. She's annoyed by him.

Jakarn's behavior is much more fun when the characters he's flirting with are flirting back. Their consent is the key to his whole "loving the chase" persona being fun, not creepy. Similarly, a reason that Darrien flirting with the player works so much better is the opportunity to pass. It's consent and respecting boundaries that changes the entire tone.

zetavivern · November 2022

Here's another idea both on character growth and on introducing new characters instead of re-using the old ones. How about weaving companions into their chapter's main quest? It could be done in two ways:
1) you could meet someone and take them as a companion, and then find out they play a major role in main events, making it so that it's your actions that put them into that important position;
2) OR you could meet them through main quest and only at some point in the plot they would decide to accompany you, like it's done in most single-player games.
The first would make the player feel like they're actually influencing other people's lives, while the second would give more room for character growth. And both would give more immersion than the current system that simply ignores the companions' presence most of the time.

NotaDaedraWorshipper · November 2022

spartaxoxo wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

In terms of the characters, I think one of the issues is that most characters are being Flanderized down into one-dimensional versions of themselves.

I think so too. I think they looked at the old quests and thought, "people liked this character a lot because he was flirty and there was a lot of angry women. So, let's dial this up to 11."
∆
But, what they failed to realize is that Jakarn was not an over the top flirt. He could go 5 seconds without flirting or extolling the virtues of his own beauty. And the women in the story were irritated with him, but NOT because he was sexually harassing them. They were mad because he was a thief who was using his pretty face to swindle them, and he was so good at it they were worried other ladies would fall for it, just as they had.

Jakarn wasn't a loser creep. He was the male version of a seductress. That's why I think so many women (and male attracted LGBT+ people) responded so positively to him the first time. It was nice to see that kind of character targeted towards us for a change. Hot dude, smooth, but utterly bad for you. Captain Kaleen can barely hide her contempt for him in Year of the Bretons content (should see how she talks about him in the dlc dungeons) but she actually respected his skill in Stros M'kai. Because it was just part of his thieving and scheming, not his only personality trait 24/7.

As for him chasing a girl who rejected him. The difference between Crafty Lerissa and Valessea that feels so different is that Lerissa makes it clear she's into it. She's not rejecting him because she doesn't like his advances, on the contrary she actually admits to encouraging them and finding them fun, and even considers settling down with him someday. She's doing so because she's not ready settle down just yet, and she knows he's not either. When they both get tired of adventuring, she thinks they may even end up settling down together and in the meantime he's a handsome face that might be fun to hookup with if they happen to be in the same port.

Valessea on the other hand thinks he's a pompous jerk who's to in love with himself to understand that someone else might not be. She's annoyed by him.

Jakarn's behavior is much more fun when the characters he's flirting with are flirting back. Their consent is the key to his whole "loving the chase" persona being fun, not creepy. Similarly, a reason that Darrien flirting with the player works so much better is the opportunity to pass. It's consent and respecting boundaries that changes the entire tone.

Agreed, and said better than I would've been able too.

SilverBride · November 2022

I used to work with a guy who often referred to women as "babe" and "momma". His wife worked with us too and he said these things in front of her. She wasn't bothered by it and neither was anyone else because it was not meant to be flirty which was obvious by his actions, or rather his lack of actions. He just used it as a greeting such as "Hey momma how's it going?"

I perceive Jakarn's "Hey good looking" the same way.