Feedback on Jakarn.

virtus753

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I think "good looking" is a cute nicknames he has for the vestige. It's his catch phrase practically and I wouldn't personally want him to stop using it

SilverBride wrote: »

I used to work with a guy who often referred to women as "babe" and "momma". His wife worked with us too and he said these things in front of her. She wasn't bothered by it and neither was anyone else because it was not meant to be flirty which was obvious by his actions, or rather his lack of actions. He just used it as a greeting such as "Hey momma how's it going?"

I perceive Jakarn's "Hey good looking" the same way.

If someone were to use these as a habitual nickname/catch phrases in real life to someone against that person’s wishes, though, that would clearly be sexual harassment. “Harmless flirting” stops being harmless when it’s unwanted. It doesn’t matter if some people do want it aimed towards them or don’t care either way - it being unwanted by any individual means it shouldn’t be addressed (especially repeatedly) towards that individual. And since there are demonstrably people who aren’t comfortable with Jakarn calling them such things (including players across the gender spectrum, as everyone has the right not to be made to feel uncomfortable like this), it is likewise harassment of those who don’t want it - and worse, in a setting where it’s impossible to say so in any effective way. I get that this is a game, where we come to have fun and where people may enjoy characters’ flirtatiousness, but it’s also where many people come to get away from such things because they can be all too common in the real world. For so long sexual harassment was something people had to deal with because it was socially acceptable or there was pressure not to say anything. In the past couple of decades there has been more of a realization that not saying no does not mean yes. All too often people are not in a position to say no. Not only does this approach to Jakarn’s character ignore “yes means yes” - it even ignores “no means no,” because there is no meaningful way to say “no” here. The fact this is a game does not mean it is ok to write a character who comes across this way, as someone to whom we literally cannot say stop or no.

The fact of the matter is that we don’t have a choice here if we want to do these later quests involving him. We either have to deal with repeated language some of us find distinctly unwanted and discomforting - and to which we are not given the option to object, not in a meaningful way - or we don’t do the quests.

Enough people have been sexually harassed and been subjected to unwanted attention like this in the real world. What is taken as harmless by one person can be harassment to another, especially when there’s no option to stop it. People who like Jakarn’s flirty nature or find it harmless certainly have the right to feel that way, but they do not and cannot invalidate the experiences and wishes of those who do not want it. An opt-in or an option to get him to stop immediately - as in starting well before the High Isle main quest but offering it frequently - would give people one of the most important things in real life and in a game (especially an RPG): (player) agency and choice.

SilverBride

If Jakarn followed up his "Hey, good looking." with physically approaching the player or suggesting they get together, then I could understand how this could be uncomfortable for some players. But he doesn't. It's just a greeting he uses with everyone and it stops at that.

deGarcia

SilverBride wrote: »

If Jakarn followed up his "Hey, good looking." with physically approaching the player or suggesting they get together, then I could understand how this could be uncomfortable for some players. But he doesn't. It's just a greeting he uses with everyone and it stops at that.

But it doesn't end on his greetings, though. Especially when it comes to Valessea. I'll quote some of this under spoiler tag.

"Valessea? Poor girl's smitten with me. She can't help it. And who am I to break her heart? So I flirt a little, just in case she's looking for an excuse to finally agree to my advances."
''Oh, wait. When you saw Valessea did she…say anything about me? You know what, tell me later. I'll see you back at the manor''
''When you see Valessea make sure to tell her I say…hey.''
And this is what she has to say about him:
''Jakarn is the kind of person who thinks everyone is enchanted by every breath he takes. And I'm sure some are. I'm just not one of them.''
''Jakarn offered to escort me to Lady Arabelle. I'll try not to turn him into a mudcrab along the way.''

Jakarn does say he can take ''no'' for an answer, but neither Valessea nor the player get the chance to say that, despite Valessea being vocal about both not being into him and being irritated with his flirting. The story just automatically thinks you agree with his constant pharases of self-praise and such. And that's just it - his very character is based on seducing women and stealing from them. Either that or he's used as a tool to explain what's currently happening in the story. He's not really getting any character development, just fan-service that should have an option ''no thank you''.

zetavivern

SilverBride wrote: »

If Jakarn followed up his "Hey, good looking." with physically approaching the player or suggesting they get together, then I could understand how this could be uncomfortable for some players. But he doesn't. It's just a greeting he uses with everyone and it stops at that.

Imagine someone you don't know and/or don't like does this to you in real life. Every time they see you. Completely ignoring your own feelings about it. I don't think you'd be okay with that, and I think you'd try to stop it before they physically approached you. If someone uses this kind of greeting to everyone it doesn't mean that it's okay, it means they're being a creep to everyone.

Now, some might say "but it's just a game". Some of us take the game seriously and really immerse in our characters, so this feels like an actual conversation with a person and not just clicking buttons to change the text on the screen. And when we're forced to put up with negative experience without any option to properly respond - it breaks the immersion hard. I hope I don't need to clarify why breaking the player's immersion in the game is bad.

SilverBride

deGarcia wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

If Jakarn followed up his "Hey, good looking." with physically approaching the player or suggesting they get together, then I could understand how this could be uncomfortable for some players. But he doesn't. It's just a greeting he uses with everyone and it stops at that.

But it doesn't end on his greetings, though. Especially when it comes to Valessea. I'll quote some of this under spoiler tag.

"Valessea? Poor girl's smitten with me. She can't help it. And who am I to break her heart? So I flirt a little, just in case she's looking for an excuse to finally agree to my advances."
''Oh, wait. When you saw Valessea did she…say anything about me? You know what, tell me later. I'll see you back at the manor''
''When you see Valessea make sure to tell her I say…hey.''
And this is what she has to say about him:
''Jakarn is the kind of person who thinks everyone is enchanted by every breath he takes. And I'm sure some are. I'm just not one of them.''
''Jakarn offered to escort me to Lady Arabelle. I'll try not to turn him into a mudcrab along the way.''

Jakarn does say he can take ''no'' for an answer, but neither Valessea nor the player get the chance to say that, despite Valessea being vocal about both not being into him and being irritated with his flirting. The story just automatically thinks you agree with his constant pharases of self-praise and such. And that's just it - his very character is based on seducing women and stealing from them. Either that or he's used as a tool to explain what's currently happening in the story. He's not really getting any character development, just fan-service that should have an option ''no thank you''.

Nothing in the "spoiler" is directed at the player. It is Jakarn speaking about another NPC.

SilverBride

zetavivern wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

If Jakarn followed up his "Hey, good looking." with physically approaching the player or suggesting they get together, then I could understand how this could be uncomfortable for some players. But he doesn't. It's just a greeting he uses with everyone and it stops at that.

Imagine someone you don't know and/or don't like does this to you in real life. Every time they see you. Completely ignoring your own feelings about it. I don't think you'd be okay with that, and I think you'd try to stop it before they physically approached you. If someone uses this kind of greeting to everyone it doesn't mean that it's okay, it means they're being a creep to everyone.

Now, some might say "but it's just a game". Some of us take the game seriously and really immerse in our characters, so this feels like an actual conversation with a person and not just clicking buttons to change the text on the screen. And when we're forced to put up with negative experience without any option to properly respond - it breaks the immersion hard. I hope I don't need to clarify why breaking the player's immersion in the game is bad.

What may happen in real life has nothing to do with this.

Jakarn never once that I have ever seen makes any advances toward the player. He merely greets them as "good looking". [snip]

[Edited for Baiting]

ArchMikem

I dunno. I personally enjoyed it. I can understand others reservations though.

deGarcia

SilverBride wrote: »

Nothing in the "spoiler" is directed at the player. It is Jakarn speaking about another NPC.

Because I specifically stated that these are some examples of his behaviour towards an NPC, who also feels irritated with his behaviour. His behaviour towards the player doesn't differ much, here's few:

''Don't worry your pretty little head over me.''
''Did you miss me, good-looking? I can't say I blame you. Most people find it hard to go long periods of time without fazing upon this impressive visage.''

Above, virtus753 made a very well-put explanation as to why and how. I want to say also that it's okay for us to ''agree to disagree'', but it feels weird when people say ''hey, thing A is uncomfortable for us - we don't ask for it to be removed as we're okay with other people finding it comfortable, but we want an option to opt-out of it'' and someone comes in saying ''it's okay for me''. [snip]

[Edited for Baiting]

Finedaible

Jakarn was more subdued in the base game zone quests, but in High Isle he just comes across as an aggressively creepy pervert who needs help. I still have no idea at all why they even brought him back for the main quest seeing as he does literally nothing at all but exist for some reason. I had half-hoped that Jakarn would have turned out to be the Ascendant Magus or some other villain feeding information to the order just because he was privy to all this sensitive information for no good reason, but whatever.

blktauna

I don't find Jakarn overly annoying but why was he even in High Isle? It should have perhaps been that Squire from the starter quest or some other mainland minor noble etc. Nothing in that quest needed for it to be particularly Jakarn. Its just lazy writing and there's been a lot of that recently.

Castagere

I think he's funny because he's not a real person.

Psiion

Greetings,

After removing and edited some posts, we would like to remind everyone to keep the Community Rules in mind. The forums are a place for every member of the ESO community to voice and share their opinions. Mocking, baiting, or otherwise provoking conflict with other members is both against the Community Rules and the spirit of the ESO Community. When participating on the forums, we ask that all members keep posts respectful.

zetavivern

Thank you for keeping the peace.

By the way, can we hope that dev team will see this? There have been some good suggestions by various people that devs might be interested to see, like something as simple as opting out of questionable interactions.

whitecrow

Jakarn never bothered me before High Isle. Now, like many others have said, he is over the top and cartoonish.

TaSheen

Well, my girl I just finished High Isle's MQ on only got one "good looking" from him, so I consider that a minor win. Trying to kill the Magus with 999+ ping and wimp-noodle Emeric - not so much. Took me 6 tries *sigh*.

Carcamongus

I got the impression Jakarn would call a rock "good looking".

His infatuation with Valessea was rather pathetic and comedic, but the latter only because she didn't appear distressed when turning him down. That's not to say someone else might not find his behavior disturbing. I wasn't bothered by my interactions with him, though I do admit he could have been more than a Tamrielic Pepe le Peu comic relief. An option to ask him to tone down the flirting would have been nice: I wouldn't have used it, but many with different views would have welcomed it.

As for Stibbons and Clarisse, while it appears to be an abusive relationship on the surface, I too believe there's more about those two than meets the eye. For one, they clearly care about each other. More importantly, Stibbons seems to like what he's doing.

DP99

Fenris_Arainai wrote: »

That kind of attention from an NPC should always be opt-in. A dialogue option to reply/react in favour, otherwise NPC should be more neutral.

I agree. My character is female, so I thought that it was alright that this NPC thought that she was cute, even if it was a bit overdone. Now if I was playing on a male character, I'd probably not enjoy it as much, and I'd like to have an option to have the dialog stop. Either way, the option to choose would be best, imo.

NotaDaedraWorshipper

DP99 wrote: »

Fenris_Arainai wrote: »

That kind of attention from an NPC should always be opt-in. A dialogue option to reply/react in favour, otherwise NPC should be more neutral.

I agree. My character is female, so I thought that it was alright that this NPC thought that she was cute, even if it was a bit overdone. Now if I was playing on a male character, I'd probably not enjoy it as much, and I'd like to have an option to have the dialog stop. Either way, the option to choose would be best, imo.

...why is it fine when the character is female but not when they are male?

Thorntongue

I think it's funny as I make my toons as ugly as possible. After they get a "hey good looking" they seem to have more DPS and move a little faster. Working as intended?

SammyKhajit

Carcamongus wrote: »

I got the impression Jakarn would call a rock "good looking".

As for Stibbons and Clarisse, while it appears to be an abusive relationship on the surface, I too believe there's more about those two than meets the eye. For one, they clearly care about each other. More importantly, Stibbons seems to like what he's doing.

Stibbons is not quite Stibbons. This one seems to recall a quest where he got possessed or something.

Thorntongue wrote: »

I think it's funny as I make my toons as ugly as possible. After they get a "hey good looking" they seem to have more DPS and move a little faster. Working as intended?

Lol. This one must try his old and grumpy wood elf on Jakarn

In all seriousness though, it’d be good if ZOS can take in the constructive feedbacks re Jakarn.

TaSheen

NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »

DP99 wrote: »

Fenris_Arainai wrote: »

That kind of attention from an NPC should always be opt-in. A dialogue option to reply/react in favour, otherwise NPC should be more neutral.

I agree. My character is female, so I thought that it was alright that this NPC thought that she was cute, even if it was a bit overdone. Now if I was playing on a male character, I'd probably not enjoy it as much, and I'd like to have an option to have the dialog stop. Either way, the option to choose would be best, imo.

...why is it fine when the character is female but not when they are male?

Some people (not specifying the person you quoted, just saying) aren't really comfortable with bi people even in a game.

Hurbster

SilverBride wrote: »

If Jakarn followed up his "Hey, good looking." with physically approaching the player or suggesting they get together, then I could understand how this could be uncomfortable for some players. But he doesn't. It's just a greeting he uses with everyone and it stops at that.

Now apply the same logic to Mirri...

NotaDaedraWorshipper

TaSheen wrote: »

NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »

DP99 wrote: »

Fenris_Arainai wrote: »

That kind of attention from an NPC should always be opt-in. A dialogue option to reply/react in favour, otherwise NPC should be more neutral.

I agree. My character is female, so I thought that it was alright that this NPC thought that she was cute, even if it was a bit overdone. Now if I was playing on a male character, I'd probably not enjoy it as much, and I'd like to have an option to have the dialog stop. Either way, the option to choose would be best, imo.

...why is it fine when the character is female but not when they are male?

Some people (not specifying the person you quoted, just saying) aren't really comfortable with bi people even in a game.

We are just characters or people like everyone else.

SammyKhajit

This one has noticed that in High Isle and Firesong, there were a few instances where the stories or characters are unnecessarily sexualised. This one is thinking of the side quest where you need to retrieve an artefact for a guild that you belong to. That was really awkward.

In the past, people have made comparisons about Jakarn to Darien, but whereas Darien you have the option to pursue a romantic dialogue with him (or not), with Jakarn it’s just non-stop without an option to end the behaviours and comments. Very odd that at this day and age we have such story writing.

Psiion

Greetings all,

As this thread has quickly derailed once again into off-topic and inappropriate discussion, we have gone ahead and closed it down. Per the first of the Forum's Community Rules:

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