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They really need to add minor force to Entropy and extend skills like unstable wall and orb to 20sec
ck37090
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its like they always just focus on one aspect of the game and force (sorta) people into a particular direction...didn't they extend dot lengths...why weren't most of the skills staff users use increased?...and why not give a solid ranged option for minor force (other than using Tzogvins or a skill that like race that gives no damage component)...and obviously extending orb they would have to slow the path in 1/2 or something.
Edited by ck37090 on September 28, 2022 2:54PM 0
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BloodyStigmata✭✭✭✭✭
✭They did extend wall and orb to 20 seconds and we all hated it, remember?
Where have you been the last 3 months?Owner and proprietor of the Northern Elsweyr Guar Reserve and The Hunting Grounds Guar Reserve, Tamriel's home to all things guar.See the embedded brochures for all information regarding our reserves, as well as our collection status!7 -
ck37090✭✭✭✭BloodyStigmata wrote: »They did extend wall and orb to 20 seconds and we all hated it, remember?
Where have you been the last 3 months?
they did? i haven't been playing, just started up again...why did "we" hate it?0 -
Kisakee✭✭✭✭✭
✭BloodyStigmata wrote: »They did extend wall and orb to 20 seconds and we all hated it, remember?
Where have you been the last 3 months?
they did? i haven't been playing, just started up again...why did "we" hate it?
Because they also put the DOT on 2 seconds instead of 1 which means you simply need double the time to do the same damage but also just need to cast it half as often.Edited by Kisakee on September 28, 2022 3:10PMI'm but a sarcastic beef jerky. Irony and cynicism are my parents. You've been warned.3 -
PeacefulAnarchy✭✭✭✭✭
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They tried on U35 PTS and walked it back. People hated it because while it parses better it doesn't actually help much in content since most of the hardest fights are very mobile and DoTs that linger in a fixed space end up being largely wasted. The fights that aren't as mobile are usually older fights or filler enemies that don't take long to kill anyways.BloodyStigmata wrote: »They did extend wall and orb to 20 seconds and we all hated it, remember?
Where have you been the last 3 months?
they did? i haven't been playing, just started up again...why did "we" hate it?
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BloodyStigmata✭✭✭✭✭
✭BloodyStigmata wrote: »They did extend wall and orb to 20 seconds and we all hated it, remember?
Where have you been the last 3 months?
they did? i haven't been playing, just started up again...why did "we" hate it?
It was on the PTS with the rest of the changes a lot of us hated.
It was because they did less damage per second to account for the increased time they were active, which for abilities that are ground-casted is a bad idea. Some fights tend to be mobile, which means means an enemy is going to be moving out of your ability range a lot and you need to be recast multiple times. Make those abilities last longer and deal less DPS and, well, you get the idea.Owner and proprietor of the Northern Elsweyr Guar Reserve and The Hunting Grounds Guar Reserve, Tamriel's home to all things guar.See the embedded brochures for all information regarding our reserves, as well as our collection status!1 -
ck37090✭✭✭✭Well of course, that’s idiotic to reduce the damage, I’m talking same damage…if anything the explosion should ramp up the longer it is on target0
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Kahnak✭✭✭✭✭BloodyStigmata wrote: »They did extend wall and orb to 20 seconds and we all hated it, remember?
Where have you been the last 3 months?
they did? i haven't been playing, just started up again...why did "we" hate it?
Uh, read the patch notes and the PTS feedback. They are literally two clicks away.Tombstone Reads: "Forgot to get good"1 -
francesinhalover✭✭✭✭✭
✭Isn't Lightweight Beast Trap a decent ranged option for Minor Force?
after testing not really, the radius is only 2.5 meters so if the target slightly moves or you aim slightly away you fail to activate the skill.
I was using it close range and it kept failing. so i changed to barbed trap because it always drops in front of you.
The solution would be increasing lightweight trap radius to 5m, but z wont do it because of pvp.I am @fluffypallascat pc eu if someone wants to play together
Shadow strike is the best cp passive ever!0 -
BasP✭✭✭✭✭francesinhalover wrote: »Isn't Lightweight Beast Trap a decent ranged option for Minor Force?
after testing not really, the radius is only 2.5 meters so if the target slightly moves or you aim slightly away you fail to activate the skill.
I was using it close range and it kept failing. so i changed to barbed trap because it always drops in front of you.
The solution would be increasing lightweight trap radius to 5m, but z wont do it because of pvp.
Ah, that's a shame. I've only used Barbed Trap myself and didn't pay a lot of attention to the tooltip of Lightweight Beast Trap, aside from the increased range. I can definitely imagine the small radius is problematic though.0 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No, 20 second DOTS are awful. They need to revert the 20 second change on sticky DOTs from U35, not double down on it.
Outside of trials and VET DLCs, almost nothing lasts 20 seconds. The change was awful and only served to further increase the skill gap.Isn't Lightweight Beast Trap a decent ranged option for Minor Force?
It definitely is these days. I get the idea pre hybridization about putting minor force in the mages guild line, but we have bigger fish to fry these days. Putting it on entropy would be a better PVP option than lightweight trap, but channeled acceleration is better than both in PVP.Edited by Oreyn_Bearclaw on September 28, 2022 5:46PM4 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭francesinhalover wrote: »Isn't Lightweight Beast Trap a decent ranged option for Minor Force?
after testing not really, the radius is only 2.5 meters so if the target slightly moves or you aim slightly away you fail to activate the skill.
I was using it close range and it kept failing. so i changed to barbed trap because it always drops in front of you.
The solution would be increasing lightweight trap radius to 5m, but z wont do it because of pvp.
Sounds more like a targeting problem to me. On a mobile fight, both traps have the same issue which IMO is the delayed timer, not the radius. If anything, they could lower the arming time on the range, but a mobile boss causes the same issues currently with both. In PVP, I think most people are just going to run channeled acceleration for minor force.0 -
zaria✭✭✭✭✭
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So reducing the dps from the skill to the half, making it pointless to use, better to use spamable or HA.BloodyStigmata wrote: »They did extend wall and orb to 20 seconds and we all hated it, remember?
Where have you been the last 3 months?
they did? i haven't been playing, just started up again...why did "we" hate it?
Because they also put the DOT on 2 seconds instead of 1 which means you simply need double the time to do the same damage but also just need to cast it half as often.
[SNIP]
Edited by ZOS_Suserial on September 28, 2022 6:24PMGrinding just make you go in circles.
Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.0 -
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ck37090✭✭✭✭boi_anachronism_ wrote: »
well, they definitely nerfed it but definitely more so on staffs, I can still hit good numbers with 2hand/daggers, staffs are absolute junk right now in comparison...but where exactly are your numbers coming from as far as doubling it? the damage would be the exact same other than having to refresh dots at 20seconds instead of 10seconds...you think that doubles your damage?0 -
Necrotech_Master✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭boi_anachronism_ wrote: »
well, they definitely nerfed it but definitely more so on staffs, I can still hit good numbers with 2hand/daggers, staffs are absolute junk right now in comparison...but where exactly are your numbers coming from as far as doubling it? the damage would be the exact same other than having to refresh dots at 20seconds instead of 10seconds...you think that doubles your damage?
totally agree
i was not happy with the dot nerf in U35, prior to that the avg dot was 1000-1500 dmg, now the avg dot dmg is around 600-800 dmg per sec, so a 40% dmg nerf along with dealing the dmg slower (2 sec tick rates) just makes any kind of sticky dot feel ineffective and not even worth casting now
wall of elements is kind of OK for staves, but only with a maelstrom staff (this brings its per tick dmg up to about 2200 every 1 sec, from like 800 per 1 sec), and most other ground dots are still OK (volley with maelstrom bow, stampede, etc), but anything with a sticky component just feels ineffectiveplays PC/NA
handle @Necrotech_Master
active player since april 2014
i have my main house (grand topal hideaway) listed in the housing tours, it has multiple target dummies, scribing altar, and grandmaster stations (in progress being filled out), as well as almost every antiquity furnishing on display to preview them
feel free to stop by and use the facilities1 -
boi_anachronism_✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭boi_anachronism_ wrote: »
well, they definitely nerfed it but definitely more so on staffs, I can still hit good numbers with 2hand/daggers, staffs are absolute junk right now in comparison...but where exactly are your numbers coming from as far as doubling it? the damage would be the exact same other than having to refresh dots at 20seconds instead of 10seconds...you think that doubles your damage?
To keep a 20 sec timer where the damage is the same per tick as it was is doubling it. That's basic math. Now if you mean keep the same damage but increase the timer that was exactly what they tried and it was an epic failure. Same damage- 20 seconds with a 2 sec tick. For anything but mobs/bosses that stand still it nearly halved your damage output. That's exactly why they reverted it. Fights have become more mobile in every update not less. Look at the final boss in earthen root for example. Lady thorn, March of sacrifices. That's why it was reverted. So no, no one wants that.0 -
ck37090✭✭✭✭boi_anachronism_ wrote: »boi_anachronism_ wrote: »
well, they definitely nerfed it but definitely more so on staffs, I can still hit good numbers with 2hand/daggers, staffs are absolute junk right now in comparison...but where exactly are your numbers coming from as far as doubling it? the damage would be the exact same other than having to refresh dots at 20seconds instead of 10seconds...you think that doubles your damage?
To keep a 20 sec timer where the damage is the same per tick as it was is doubling it. That's basic math. Now if you mean keep the same damage but increase the timer that was exactly what they tried and it was an epic failure. Same damage- 20 seconds with a 2 sec tick. For anything but mobs/bosses that stand still it nearly halved your damage output. That's exactly why they reverted it. Fights have become more mobile in every update not less. Look at the final boss in earthen root for example. Lady thorn, March of sacrifices. That's why it was reverted. So no, no one wants that.
ok, basic math...for simplicity...if the 10secon wall or orb does 10,000 damage over ten seconds with 1k per second ticks, if they change only the timer to 20 seconds with still having 1k per second ticks, the wall or orb would then do 20,000 damage but now over 20 seconds...so you see, the damage isn't really doubled, you just dont have to cast the skill twice, 20k damage over 20 seconds isn't really doubling the damage because it takes twice as long to get there...this is not "basic math"?0 -
Necrotech_Master✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭boi_anachronism_ wrote: »boi_anachronism_ wrote: »
well, they definitely nerfed it but definitely more so on staffs, I can still hit good numbers with 2hand/daggers, staffs are absolute junk right now in comparison...but where exactly are your numbers coming from as far as doubling it? the damage would be the exact same other than having to refresh dots at 20seconds instead of 10seconds...you think that doubles your damage?
To keep a 20 sec timer where the damage is the same per tick as it was is doubling it. That's basic math. Now if you mean keep the same damage but increase the timer that was exactly what they tried and it was an epic failure. Same damage- 20 seconds with a 2 sec tick. For anything but mobs/bosses that stand still it nearly halved your damage output. That's exactly why they reverted it. Fights have become more mobile in every update not less. Look at the final boss in earthen root for example. Lady thorn, March of sacrifices. That's why it was reverted. So no, no one wants that.
i only look at the dot in terms of dps, how long it lasts is irrelevant honestly
if you increased a pre-u35 dot from 10 to 20 sec, while you are changing the total dmg per cast, you are not changing the per sec/per tick dmg (and at the same time, saving only 1 GCD on the recast)
the nerf to the dps of the dots was unnecessary, and then crippling sticky dots with a 2 sec tick rate makes them feel even less effectiveplays PC/NA
handle @Necrotech_Master
active player since april 2014
i have my main house (grand topal hideaway) listed in the housing tours, it has multiple target dummies, scribing altar, and grandmaster stations (in progress being filled out), as well as almost every antiquity furnishing on display to preview them
feel free to stop by and use the facilities1 -
boi_anachronism_✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭boi_anachronism_ wrote: »boi_anachronism_ wrote: »
well, they definitely nerfed it but definitely more so on staffs, I can still hit good numbers with 2hand/daggers, staffs are absolute junk right now in comparison...but where exactly are your numbers coming from as far as doubling it? the damage would be the exact same other than having to refresh dots at 20seconds instead of 10seconds...you think that doubles your damage?
To keep a 20 sec timer where the damage is the same per tick as it was is doubling it. That's basic math. Now if you mean keep the same damage but increase the timer that was exactly what they tried and it was an epic failure. Same damage- 20 seconds with a 2 sec tick. For anything but mobs/bosses that stand still it nearly halved your damage output. That's exactly why they reverted it. Fights have become more mobile in every update not less. Look at the final boss in earthen root for example. Lady thorn, March of sacrifices. That's why it was reverted. So no, no one wants that.
ok, basic math...for simplicity...if the 10secon wall or orb does 10,000 damage over ten seconds with 1k per second ticks, if they change only the timer to 20 seconds with still having 1k per second ticks, the wall or orb would then do 20,000 damage but now over 20 seconds...so you see, the damage isn't really doubled, you just dont have to cast the skill twice, 20k damage over 20 seconds isn't really doubling the damage because it takes twice as long to get there...this is not "basic math"?
Back to what I said- it's doubling the damage output of the skill for the same resource cost and cast time. It would be broken beyond belief, especially with passive interactions.This is exactly what they wanted to get away from according to the devs. Specifically. Notice that they did not have damage once per tic with sticky dots when they changed them to 20 secs? That's the reason. They wanted to keep skill damage the same or lower overall while altering timers. The goal was nerf. That would be a massive buff.Edited by boi_anachronism_ on September 28, 2022 9:38PM1 -
boi_anachronism_✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I don't know how you don't get that adding 10k damage for the same resource cost isn't a massive buff... What.0 -
ck37090✭✭✭✭boi_anachronism_ wrote: »I don't know how you don't get that adding 10k damage for the same resource cost isn't a massive buff... What.
no, they could even increase the cost of the skill...the issue is the timer...skill "cost" doesn't mean much of anything especially with all the hybridinization...the "dps" increase is negligible...the only thing that matters is "dps" damage per second...adding 10k damage and doubling the duration gives the exact same dps...you get no additional dps from it, you merely don't have to cast it as much and yes that does save some resources, but that is of no consequence at all
...it would increase dps because you could spend more time on your front bar but since they nerfed it so much from the last patches, staffs need a boost right now, staffs are terrible compared to 2 hand/daggers, they should be lower but the gap in dps along with a 2 hand backbar you have all 20 second timers using melee weapons, they need to be inline with each otherEdited by ck37090 on September 28, 2022 9:50PM0 -
boi_anachronism_✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭And the additional space/time for another full spammable or other damage skill in place on where you would normally refresh that wall... This isn't a vacuum. There were other considerations. This is precisely why they did a 2 sec tic because now you have an additional "free" damage ability without sacrificing any uptime from wall. They had skills that worked that way already. They nerfed them or the changed it to tic every 2 seconds.0 -
Necrotech_Master✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭boi_anachronism_ wrote: »And the additional space/time for another full spammable or other damage skill in place on where you would normally refresh that wall... This isn't a vacuum. There were other considerations. This is precisely why they did a 2 sec tic because now you have an additional "free" damage ability without sacrificing any uptime from wall. They had skills that worked that way already. They nerfed them or the changed it to tic every 2 seconds.
if we are talking a 10 vs 20 sec cast difference, i dont know if 1 extra spammable cast would make that much difference
over 20 sec, with 10 sec dot, you have 20 GCD, 2 casts are used for the DOT, and the other 18 casts are spammable
over 20 sec with 20 sec dot, you have same number of GCD, 1 cast is used for the dot, and 19 spammable casts
assuming the dot does the same amount of dmg for each dot (1000 dmg per sec), that would do 20k dmg over 20 sec
assuming the spammable does say 6000 dmg per cast, in scenario 1 with 10 sec dot that is 108k dmg, the 2nd scenario would bring that to 114k dmg, so that is a difference of 5400 dps in scenario 1 to 5700 dps in scenario 2
so your overall dmg difference there is like 300 dps which is basically nothing, if you mix in other dots into that, your losing more spammable GCDs for dot casting GCDs
the problem as you mentioned with the nerfed ground dots is that enemies move around and they need to be recast more often than their full duration, so thats where the dps of the dot comes into play, the heavily nerfed dots are so weak its a waste of GCD to even recast if the boss moves or has immunity phases (not to mention you might only get 30-50% of the actual max dmg), it only makes sense for parse dummy bosses that dont move around, dont have invuln phases, or dont purge effectsplays PC/NA
handle @Necrotech_Master
active player since april 2014
i have my main house (grand topal hideaway) listed in the housing tours, it has multiple target dummies, scribing altar, and grandmaster stations (in progress being filled out), as well as almost every antiquity furnishing on display to preview them
feel free to stop by and use the facilities0 -
boi_anachronism_✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Necrotech_Master wrote: »boi_anachronism_ wrote: »And the additional space/time for another full spammable or other damage skill in place on where you would normally refresh that wall... This isn't a vacuum. There were other considerations. This is precisely why they did a 2 sec tic because now you have an additional "free" damage ability without sacrificing any uptime from wall. They had skills that worked that way already. They nerfed them or the changed it to tic every 2 seconds.
if we are talking a 10 vs 20 sec cast difference, i dont know if 1 extra spammable cast would make that much difference
over 20 sec, with 10 sec dot, you have 20 GCD, 2 casts are used for the DOT, and the other 18 casts are spammable
over 20 sec with 20 sec dot, you have same number of GCD, 1 cast is used for the dot, and 19 spammable casts
assuming the dot does the same amount of dmg for each dot (1000 dmg per sec), that would do 20k dmg over 20 sec
assuming the spammable does say 6000 dmg per cast, in scenario 1 with 10 sec dot that is 108k dmg, the 2nd scenario would bring that to 114k dmg, so that is a difference of 5400 dps in scenario 1 to 5700 dps in scenario 2
so your overall dmg difference there is like 300 dps which is basically nothing, if you mix in other dots into that, your losing more spammable GCDs for dot casting GCDs
the problem as you mentioned with the nerfed ground dots is that enemies move around and they need to be recast more often than their full duration, so thats where the dps of the dot comes into play, the heavily nerfed dots are so weak its a waste of GCD to even recast if the boss moves or has immunity phases (not to mention you might only get 30-50% of the actual max dmg), it only makes sense for parse dummy bosses that dont move around, dont have invuln phases, or dont purge effects
It does. Example. I get somewhere around 9k a hit with concealed and around 75k+ with impale at 25%. Every rotation. That is actually massive. Same with templar and anyone running an execute. I'm going to say it again. This is specifically why they did a 2 second tic. They wanted to keep damage the same by slowing damage per tic but allowing you to make up for lost damage by casting more spammables. Hence the reason they did that. What you suggest would have created further power creep which is the polar opposite of what they trying to do.Edited by boi_anachronism_ on September 29, 2022 3:24AM0 -
Jammy420✭✭✭✭✭
✭Extending the timers any more would make you just spam one skill for 15 seconds while you wait for timers to reset. PLease no.1 -
Arthtur✭✭✭✭✭
✭About the DoTs... Overall damage per cast was higher but damage per second was lower.
U34 DoTs were at around 1.5 strength of spammable and lasted 10s.
U35 changed DoTs to 2.0 strength of spammable over 20s.
They reverted changes to ground aoes but nerfed those to 1.4 i think.
Players were against it because:
- There are fights where long DoTs are useless. Dummy was the only place where those long DoTs were showing full power.
- It destoryed DoTs builds. There were builds without spammable. Longer DoTs were making this no longer possible.
- Boring rotations. In some cases u was spamming your spammable for 15s.
- After they reverted only ground DoTs, timers become a mess. Gap between dynamic and static rotations become even bigger.
- 2s ticks were creating problems with enchants, as they werent procing on cd.
And there were probably more.
Anyway, increasing durations with the same dps would increase overall damage a lot. If i remember my math it would be around 25% - 30% buff. Highest parses in U34 were around 140k so they would jump to around 170k. So, that would be a pretty big increase.
Edit - TypoEdited by Arthtur on September 29, 2022 2:07PM0 -
Amottica✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Extending the duration of a DoT that is not placed directly on a target makes it less useful since it is already not worth using a DoT if at least half the duration is not doing damage.
Zenimax recently tested extending the duration of DoTs like WoE and we balked at it for this very reason. Orbs would be a worse candidate to extend since the orb will just move further out of the area.
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Necrotech_Master✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭boi_anachronism_ wrote: »Necrotech_Master wrote: »boi_anachronism_ wrote: »And the additional space/time for another full spammable or other damage skill in place on where you would normally refresh that wall... This isn't a vacuum. There were other considerations. This is precisely why they did a 2 sec tic because now you have an additional "free" damage ability without sacrificing any uptime from wall. They had skills that worked that way already. They nerfed them or the changed it to tic every 2 seconds.
if we are talking a 10 vs 20 sec cast difference, i dont know if 1 extra spammable cast would make that much difference
over 20 sec, with 10 sec dot, you have 20 GCD, 2 casts are used for the DOT, and the other 18 casts are spammable
over 20 sec with 20 sec dot, you have same number of GCD, 1 cast is used for the dot, and 19 spammable casts
assuming the dot does the same amount of dmg for each dot (1000 dmg per sec), that would do 20k dmg over 20 sec
assuming the spammable does say 6000 dmg per cast, in scenario 1 with 10 sec dot that is 108k dmg, the 2nd scenario would bring that to 114k dmg, so that is a difference of 5400 dps in scenario 1 to 5700 dps in scenario 2
so your overall dmg difference there is like 300 dps which is basically nothing, if you mix in other dots into that, your losing more spammable GCDs for dot casting GCDs
the problem as you mentioned with the nerfed ground dots is that enemies move around and they need to be recast more often than their full duration, so thats where the dps of the dot comes into play, the heavily nerfed dots are so weak its a waste of GCD to even recast if the boss moves or has immunity phases (not to mention you might only get 30-50% of the actual max dmg), it only makes sense for parse dummy bosses that dont move around, dont have invuln phases, or dont purge effects
It does. Example. I get somewhere around 9k a hit with concealed and around 75k+ with impale at 25%. Every rotation. That is actually massive. Same with templar and anyone running an execute. I'm going to say it again. This is specifically why they did a 2 second tic. They wanted to keep damage the same by slowing damage per tic but allowing you to make up for lost damage by casting more spammables. Hence the reason they did that. What you suggest would have created further power creep which is the polar opposite of what they trying to do.
1 extra cast of a spammable during execute would add more dmg, because most all dmg (especially execute specific skills) are heavily dmg inflated to begin with, but i dont really consider that a "standard" case when roughly 3/4 of the entire fight is not spamming your execute (in the NB case with impale)
outside of execute, even with a 9k spammable, 1 extra cast in a 20 sec time period is not adding that much dps, thats basically adding the equivalent of 1 U35 nerfed dot
i feel the reason they did the tick rate change was to reduce server calculations, changing the tick rate has absolutely nothing to do with the actual dps of the dot, if the dot dmg from pre-U35 was not nerfed and they just changed the tick rate, i dont know if would have even noticed honestly, but combination of nerfing the dmg by almost 50% along with the tick rate change just makes the dots feel insanely weak to the point of not even bothering with them, especially with all the timers that dont even line up well anymore
and again, this is also assuming the dot will always do 100% of its duration to the target during a rotation, outside of a dummy parse or dummy boss, its much more likely you will lose dot effectiveness if they have any kind of teleport that purges effects or invuln phases (example laser boss in frostvault)
in the frostvault case, a maelstrom staff boosted wall of elements will do drastically more dmg than any sticky dot in the fight because its doing almost 4x dmg per sec of a sticky dotplays PC/NA
handle @Necrotech_Master
active player since april 2014
i have my main house (grand topal hideaway) listed in the housing tours, it has multiple target dummies, scribing altar, and grandmaster stations (in progress being filled out), as well as almost every antiquity furnishing on display to preview them
feel free to stop by and use the facilities0
