They really need to add minor force to Entropy and extend skills like unstable wall and orb to 20sec

boi_anachronism_

It's in the patch note

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

And the additional space/time for another full spammable or other damage skill in place on where you would normally refresh that wall... This isn't a vacuum. There were other considerations. This is precisely why they did a 2 sec tic because now you have an additional "free" damage ability without sacrificing any uptime from wall. They had skills that worked that way already. They nerfed them or the changed it to tic every 2 seconds.

if we are talking a 10 vs 20 sec cast difference, i dont know if 1 extra spammable cast would make that much difference

over 20 sec, with 10 sec dot, you have 20 GCD, 2 casts are used for the DOT, and the other 18 casts are spammable

over 20 sec with 20 sec dot, you have same number of GCD, 1 cast is used for the dot, and 19 spammable casts

assuming the dot does the same amount of dmg for each dot (1000 dmg per sec), that would do 20k dmg over 20 sec

assuming the spammable does say 6000 dmg per cast, in scenario 1 with 10 sec dot that is 108k dmg, the 2nd scenario would bring that to 114k dmg, so that is a difference of 5400 dps in scenario 1 to 5700 dps in scenario 2

so your overall dmg difference there is like 300 dps which is basically nothing, if you mix in other dots into that, your losing more spammable GCDs for dot casting GCDs

the problem as you mentioned with the nerfed ground dots is that enemies move around and they need to be recast more often than their full duration, so thats where the dps of the dot comes into play, the heavily nerfed dots are so weak its a waste of GCD to even recast if the boss moves or has immunity phases (not to mention you might only get 30-50% of the actual max dmg), it only makes sense for parse dummy bosses that dont move around, dont have invuln phases, or dont purge effects

It does. Example. I get somewhere around 9k a hit with concealed and around 75k+ with impale at 25%. Every rotation. That is actually massive. Same with templar and anyone running an execute. I'm going to say it again. This is specifically why they did a 2 second tic. They wanted to keep damage the same by slowing damage per tic but allowing you to make up for lost damage by casting more spammables. Hence the reason they did that. What you suggest would have created further power creep which is the polar opposite of what they trying to do.

1 extra cast of a spammable during execute would add more dmg, because most all dmg (especially execute specific skills) are heavily dmg inflated to begin with, but i dont really consider that a "standard" case when roughly 3/4 of the entire fight is not spamming your execute (in the NB case with impale)

outside of execute, even with a 9k spammable, 1 extra cast in a 20 sec time period is not adding that much dps, thats basically adding the equivalent of 1 U35 nerfed dot

i feel the reason they did the tick rate change was to reduce server calculations, changing the tick rate has absolutely nothing to do with the actual dps of the dot, if the dot dmg from pre-U35 was not nerfed and they just changed the tick rate, i dont know if would have even noticed honestly, but combination of nerfing the dmg by almost 50% along with the tick rate change just makes the dots feel insanely weak to the point of not even bothering with them, especially with all the timers that dont even line up well anymore

and again, this is also assuming the dot will always do 100% of its duration to the target during a rotation, outside of a dummy parse or dummy boss, its much more likely you will lose dot effectiveness if they have any kind of teleport that purges effects or invuln phases (example laser boss in frostvault)

in the frostvault case, a maelstrom staff boosted wall of elements will do drastically more dmg than any sticky dot in the fight because its doing almost 4x dmg per sec of a sticky dot

1) they take all classes into account when making these changes including templar and nb who would gain a massive amount of dps from that.

2) they listed this as a reason in the patch notes.

Necrotech_Master

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

It's in the patch note

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

And the additional space/time for another full spammable or other damage skill in place on where you would normally refresh that wall... This isn't a vacuum. There were other considerations. This is precisely why they did a 2 sec tic because now you have an additional "free" damage ability without sacrificing any uptime from wall. They had skills that worked that way already. They nerfed them or the changed it to tic every 2 seconds.

if we are talking a 10 vs 20 sec cast difference, i dont know if 1 extra spammable cast would make that much difference

over 20 sec, with 10 sec dot, you have 20 GCD, 2 casts are used for the DOT, and the other 18 casts are spammable

over 20 sec with 20 sec dot, you have same number of GCD, 1 cast is used for the dot, and 19 spammable casts

assuming the dot does the same amount of dmg for each dot (1000 dmg per sec), that would do 20k dmg over 20 sec

assuming the spammable does say 6000 dmg per cast, in scenario 1 with 10 sec dot that is 108k dmg, the 2nd scenario would bring that to 114k dmg, so that is a difference of 5400 dps in scenario 1 to 5700 dps in scenario 2

so your overall dmg difference there is like 300 dps which is basically nothing, if you mix in other dots into that, your losing more spammable GCDs for dot casting GCDs

the problem as you mentioned with the nerfed ground dots is that enemies move around and they need to be recast more often than their full duration, so thats where the dps of the dot comes into play, the heavily nerfed dots are so weak its a waste of GCD to even recast if the boss moves or has immunity phases (not to mention you might only get 30-50% of the actual max dmg), it only makes sense for parse dummy bosses that dont move around, dont have invuln phases, or dont purge effects

It does. Example. I get somewhere around 9k a hit with concealed and around 75k+ with impale at 25%. Every rotation. That is actually massive. Same with templar and anyone running an execute. I'm going to say it again. This is specifically why they did a 2 second tic. They wanted to keep damage the same by slowing damage per tic but allowing you to make up for lost damage by casting more spammables. Hence the reason they did that. What you suggest would have created further power creep which is the polar opposite of what they trying to do.

1 extra cast of a spammable during execute would add more dmg, because most all dmg (especially execute specific skills) are heavily dmg inflated to begin with, but i dont really consider that a "standard" case when roughly 3/4 of the entire fight is not spamming your execute (in the NB case with impale)

outside of execute, even with a 9k spammable, 1 extra cast in a 20 sec time period is not adding that much dps, thats basically adding the equivalent of 1 U35 nerfed dot

i feel the reason they did the tick rate change was to reduce server calculations, changing the tick rate has absolutely nothing to do with the actual dps of the dot, if the dot dmg from pre-U35 was not nerfed and they just changed the tick rate, i dont know if would have even noticed honestly, but combination of nerfing the dmg by almost 50% along with the tick rate change just makes the dots feel insanely weak to the point of not even bothering with them, especially with all the timers that dont even line up well anymore

and again, this is also assuming the dot will always do 100% of its duration to the target during a rotation, outside of a dummy parse or dummy boss, its much more likely you will lose dot effectiveness if they have any kind of teleport that purges effects or invuln phases (example laser boss in frostvault)

in the frostvault case, a maelstrom staff boosted wall of elements will do drastically more dmg than any sticky dot in the fight because its doing almost 4x dmg per sec of a sticky dot

1) they take all classes into account when making these changes including templar and nb who would gain a massive amount of dps from that.

2) they listed this as a reason in the patch notes.

the problem then is they are treating all classes equally, my mag dk who is DoT heavy most certainly lost a good amount of dps because of these dot nerfs (no build changes and im probably down 5-6k dps, especially considering DK does not have any class built in executes too)

this character is still good, but the dot nerfs have hurt this build quite a lot, and it makes it even worse when facing opponents with invulnerability phases or purges

if you are not looking at execute phase, sure, NB probably did gain a little bit of dmg, but NB have never been dot heavy builds

nerfing dots and buffing spammables does not affect all classes equally

boi_anachronism_

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

It's in the patch note

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

And the additional space/time for another full spammable or other damage skill in place on where you would normally refresh that wall... This isn't a vacuum. There were other considerations. This is precisely why they did a 2 sec tic because now you have an additional "free" damage ability without sacrificing any uptime from wall. They had skills that worked that way already. They nerfed them or the changed it to tic every 2 seconds.

if we are talking a 10 vs 20 sec cast difference, i dont know if 1 extra spammable cast would make that much difference

over 20 sec, with 10 sec dot, you have 20 GCD, 2 casts are used for the DOT, and the other 18 casts are spammable

over 20 sec with 20 sec dot, you have same number of GCD, 1 cast is used for the dot, and 19 spammable casts

assuming the dot does the same amount of dmg for each dot (1000 dmg per sec), that would do 20k dmg over 20 sec

assuming the spammable does say 6000 dmg per cast, in scenario 1 with 10 sec dot that is 108k dmg, the 2nd scenario would bring that to 114k dmg, so that is a difference of 5400 dps in scenario 1 to 5700 dps in scenario 2

so your overall dmg difference there is like 300 dps which is basically nothing, if you mix in other dots into that, your losing more spammable GCDs for dot casting GCDs

the problem as you mentioned with the nerfed ground dots is that enemies move around and they need to be recast more often than their full duration, so thats where the dps of the dot comes into play, the heavily nerfed dots are so weak its a waste of GCD to even recast if the boss moves or has immunity phases (not to mention you might only get 30-50% of the actual max dmg), it only makes sense for parse dummy bosses that dont move around, dont have invuln phases, or dont purge effects

It does. Example. I get somewhere around 9k a hit with concealed and around 75k+ with impale at 25%. Every rotation. That is actually massive. Same with templar and anyone running an execute. I'm going to say it again. This is specifically why they did a 2 second tic. They wanted to keep damage the same by slowing damage per tic but allowing you to make up for lost damage by casting more spammables. Hence the reason they did that. What you suggest would have created further power creep which is the polar opposite of what they trying to do.

1 extra cast of a spammable during execute would add more dmg, because most all dmg (especially execute specific skills) are heavily dmg inflated to begin with, but i dont really consider that a "standard" case when roughly 3/4 of the entire fight is not spamming your execute (in the NB case with impale)

outside of execute, even with a 9k spammable, 1 extra cast in a 20 sec time period is not adding that much dps, thats basically adding the equivalent of 1 U35 nerfed dot

i feel the reason they did the tick rate change was to reduce server calculations, changing the tick rate has absolutely nothing to do with the actual dps of the dot, if the dot dmg from pre-U35 was not nerfed and they just changed the tick rate, i dont know if would have even noticed honestly, but combination of nerfing the dmg by almost 50% along with the tick rate change just makes the dots feel insanely weak to the point of not even bothering with them, especially with all the timers that dont even line up well anymore

and again, this is also assuming the dot will always do 100% of its duration to the target during a rotation, outside of a dummy parse or dummy boss, its much more likely you will lose dot effectiveness if they have any kind of teleport that purges effects or invuln phases (example laser boss in frostvault)

in the frostvault case, a maelstrom staff boosted wall of elements will do drastically more dmg than any sticky dot in the fight because its doing almost 4x dmg per sec of a sticky dot

1) they take all classes into account when making these changes including templar and nb who would gain a massive amount of dps from that.

2) they listed this as a reason in the patch notes.

the problem then is they are treating all classes equally, my mag dk who is DoT heavy most certainly lost a good amount of dps because of these dot nerfs (no build changes and im probably down 5-6k dps, especially considering DK does not have any class built in executes too)

this character is still good, but the dot nerfs have hurt this build quite a lot, and it makes it even worse when facing opponents with invulnerability phases or purges

if you are not looking at execute phase, sure, NB probably did gain a little bit of dmg, but NB have never been dot heavy builds

nerfing dots and buffing spammables does not affect all classes equally

That's correct but while some classes may benefit more they would all still benefit from increased damage and therefore counterproductive for their agenda. I mean I hear you. Some classes obviously are hit harder by this and it sucks but like everything else zos balances based on what is possible not the median and that is just a fact. Is I the right thing to do? No but it's the unfortunate reality and trying to balance open skill lines for each class is not feasible for calculation and coding reasons.

Necrotech_Master

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

It's in the patch note

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

And the additional space/time for another full spammable or other damage skill in place on where you would normally refresh that wall... This isn't a vacuum. There were other considerations. This is precisely why they did a 2 sec tic because now you have an additional "free" damage ability without sacrificing any uptime from wall. They had skills that worked that way already. They nerfed them or the changed it to tic every 2 seconds.

if we are talking a 10 vs 20 sec cast difference, i dont know if 1 extra spammable cast would make that much difference

over 20 sec, with 10 sec dot, you have 20 GCD, 2 casts are used for the DOT, and the other 18 casts are spammable

over 20 sec with 20 sec dot, you have same number of GCD, 1 cast is used for the dot, and 19 spammable casts

assuming the dot does the same amount of dmg for each dot (1000 dmg per sec), that would do 20k dmg over 20 sec

assuming the spammable does say 6000 dmg per cast, in scenario 1 with 10 sec dot that is 108k dmg, the 2nd scenario would bring that to 114k dmg, so that is a difference of 5400 dps in scenario 1 to 5700 dps in scenario 2

so your overall dmg difference there is like 300 dps which is basically nothing, if you mix in other dots into that, your losing more spammable GCDs for dot casting GCDs

the problem as you mentioned with the nerfed ground dots is that enemies move around and they need to be recast more often than their full duration, so thats where the dps of the dot comes into play, the heavily nerfed dots are so weak its a waste of GCD to even recast if the boss moves or has immunity phases (not to mention you might only get 30-50% of the actual max dmg), it only makes sense for parse dummy bosses that dont move around, dont have invuln phases, or dont purge effects

It does. Example. I get somewhere around 9k a hit with concealed and around 75k+ with impale at 25%. Every rotation. That is actually massive. Same with templar and anyone running an execute. I'm going to say it again. This is specifically why they did a 2 second tic. They wanted to keep damage the same by slowing damage per tic but allowing you to make up for lost damage by casting more spammables. Hence the reason they did that. What you suggest would have created further power creep which is the polar opposite of what they trying to do.

1 extra cast of a spammable during execute would add more dmg, because most all dmg (especially execute specific skills) are heavily dmg inflated to begin with, but i dont really consider that a "standard" case when roughly 3/4 of the entire fight is not spamming your execute (in the NB case with impale)

outside of execute, even with a 9k spammable, 1 extra cast in a 20 sec time period is not adding that much dps, thats basically adding the equivalent of 1 U35 nerfed dot

i feel the reason they did the tick rate change was to reduce server calculations, changing the tick rate has absolutely nothing to do with the actual dps of the dot, if the dot dmg from pre-U35 was not nerfed and they just changed the tick rate, i dont know if would have even noticed honestly, but combination of nerfing the dmg by almost 50% along with the tick rate change just makes the dots feel insanely weak to the point of not even bothering with them, especially with all the timers that dont even line up well anymore

and again, this is also assuming the dot will always do 100% of its duration to the target during a rotation, outside of a dummy parse or dummy boss, its much more likely you will lose dot effectiveness if they have any kind of teleport that purges effects or invuln phases (example laser boss in frostvault)

in the frostvault case, a maelstrom staff boosted wall of elements will do drastically more dmg than any sticky dot in the fight because its doing almost 4x dmg per sec of a sticky dot

1) they take all classes into account when making these changes including templar and nb who would gain a massive amount of dps from that.

2) they listed this as a reason in the patch notes.

the problem then is they are treating all classes equally, my mag dk who is DoT heavy most certainly lost a good amount of dps because of these dot nerfs (no build changes and im probably down 5-6k dps, especially considering DK does not have any class built in executes too)

this character is still good, but the dot nerfs have hurt this build quite a lot, and it makes it even worse when facing opponents with invulnerability phases or purges

if you are not looking at execute phase, sure, NB probably did gain a little bit of dmg, but NB have never been dot heavy builds

nerfing dots and buffing spammables does not affect all classes equally

That's correct but while some classes may benefit more they would all still benefit from increased damage and therefore counterproductive for their agenda. I mean I hear you. Some classes obviously are hit harder by this and it sucks but like everything else zos balances based on what is possible not the median and that is just a fact. Is I the right thing to do? No but it's the unfortunate reality and trying to balance open skill lines for each class is not feasible for calculation and coding reasons.

for the longest period of time they have tried to keep dots to about 1000-1500 dps, and the U35 changes basically reduced dots down to 600-800 dps, which is almost 50% of what it was before

duration changes i can work with, tick rates i can work with, but the dps of the dot getting straight nerfed on top of the other 2 just made them awful

in your scenario you mentioned your impale would do 75k in execute, in the current system, why even bother wasting a GCD casting a dot that is only adding say 800 dps that (talking a value like before crits/other buffs come into play)

during some parse testing on my stamplar, i have poison injection on my back bar, this skill barely even registered dmg compared to most other things, even during execute the max dmg per tick it would do was like 11.5k (on the buffed trial dummy), this was entirely being eclipsed by every proc DoT i was wearing (stormfist 3 small ticks, perfected whorl, and pillar of nirn)

pillar of nirn for example, was already a 2 sec tick rate, i had never noticed that because its dps is decent, even if it does miss occasionally

but even just a comparison of the tooltip:

30k dmg over 10 sec, while all of your casted sticky dots are like 12000 over 20 sec, thats half the dmg, over double the duration of a proc

im not saying the proc should be nerfed too, but there is a discrepency here, honestly if the proc dots were nerfed too then DoT builds would absolutely be dead in the water and there would be no point to run them