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While I probably should just give up on Warden, but I can't do that just yet.

Mr_Stach
Mr_Stach
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Of course this Patch is a Wash, it's gone live, somehow they squeezed in another nerf for good measure though:

kh6smedndw4p.png

*Note as pointed out by @ESO_Nightingale , this is not an "extra nerf rather just an update to show the difference between where Winter's Revenge was in U34 and where it ended in the last week of PTS for U35. But it's still a drastically different change from last patch and very bad even with Destro Staff Equipped.

Now let's look to the future: U36, Zos this is your Redemption Arc, let's focus in on the issues:
  • Warden Class identity and Vision (or lack thereof): Warden needs to be refocused, every time there is a good change for warden, there's 5 steps back. We have this cool split focus for Magicka and Stamina for Frost and Bleed, LEAN INTO THAT. Changing Passives should benefit those aspects not make either weaker. Look at Dragonknight, they are a perfect example of Updating Class Damage Types and Class Skills to fit a vison of what a class should be.
  • Damage Types: Controversial point, Get Rid of Magic Damage, I know a lot of people don't think that Warden just doing Frost makes sense, but we can't be "Master's of Frost" with just 2 working Frost Skills now can we, all of Warden's Magic is magical constructs, all of it can be whatever the Warden needs it to be, allowing it to be frost damage opens up some great possibilities.
  • Winter's Embrace has both Skills and Passives that need to have passes, Icy Aura is USELESS, Frozen Gate should be completely Reworked (hopefully as a damage skill)
  • Green Balance Has some skills and Passives that need to be looked over as well, such as Nature's Gift proccing when you heal yourself or Reworking Bursting Vines purely as a self heal.
  • Animal Companion, In the Past we've talked about making warden less dependent on the Bear, so we've nerfed the bear and buffed Advanced species, Nerfed Advanced Species, Nerfed The Bear Again, Buffed the Bear by giving it Hemo, and Completely reworked Advanced Species and Nerfed the Bear...... Have you thought about making the other Ultimate better? like ever? Stop trying to slap around the bear for doing bear things and make the alternative options more attractive.
  • Bleed: Stamden was getting so close with the Bleed Damage, all it needs is Passive Synergy, lean into that.
  • Status Effects:Warden should be the Best at Bleed and Chilled/Brittle in the same way that DK is the best at Burning and Poisoned, their Passives should reflect that.
  • Scorch: Revert Scorch and Morphs back to U34
  • Winter's Revenge: Tying a Class Skill to a Weapon Type is a Mistake. Class Skills and Weapon Types should work Independently of each other. I'm sure Zos can think of a more interesting way of making Magicka Warden better without hurting Stamina Warden's use of Winter's Revenge. Rethink this change completely.

Other things to consider:

UI Update for Scorch and Morphs, I'm sick of people's responses of people missing with Scorch as a "L2P Issue" Scorch is the ONLY Skill shot delayed burst in the game. You need to aim it, you need to time it, lower skilled players just miss, get frustrated and leave. Basic Concepts such as Skill Zones should already be built into the game, but I think it's even more essential for Scorch, so I would suggest a simple UI update while it is "charging"
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Edited by Mr_Stach on August 22, 2022 11:38PM
Altoholic, Frost Warden Sympathizer and Main

Glacial Guardian - Main - Frost Warden Zealot
The Frost Man Cometh - PC Frost Backup
  • ESO_Nightingale
    ESO_Nightingale
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    From the wording it's not a new nerf. That's appropriately what was lost from last patch.
    PvE Frost Warden Main and teacher for ESO-U. Frost Warden PvE Build Article: https://eso-u.com/articles/nightingales_warden_dps_guide__frost_knight. Come Join the ESO Frost Discord to discuss everything frost!: https://discord.gg/5PT3rQX
  • Mr_Stach
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    From the wording it's not a new nerf. That's appropriately what was lost from last patch.

    Yeah that's probably accurate, which just shows how bad this patch is to Warden for PvE. I just don't see in what universe that these changes are good.
    Altoholic, Frost Warden Sympathizer and Main

    Glacial Guardian - Main - Frost Warden Zealot
    The Frost Man Cometh - PC Frost Backup
  • Turtle_Bot
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    While I can't comment on the changes regarding PVE, from PVP perspective, it feels really nice to play.

    It has a reliable hard CC to land burst properly, a strong burst heal that having a CC attached to, helps to get enemies off you when under pressure.

    It's burst combo lines up nicely for timing and doesn't feel all that clunky to use, yes even the second proc of shulks doesn't feel bad to line skills up with.
  • Unified_Gaming
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    Turtle_Bot wrote: »
    While I can't comment on the changes regarding PVE, from PVP perspective, it feels really nice to play.

    It has a reliable hard CC to land burst properly, a strong burst heal that having a CC attached to, helps to get enemies off you when under pressure.

    It's burst combo lines up nicely for timing and doesn't feel all that clunky to use, yes even the second proc of shulks doesn't feel bad to line skills up with.

    I have tried it myself and I have to disagree as a long term magicka warden player..

    Arctic blast is a decsnt heal now and defensive stun but it doesn't help if the target chooses to keep away or runs. You can't stun offensively as a magicka warden easily. The change to arctic blast will REALLY help stamina wardens and is a good change for them. I can however see them nerfing this skill due to stamina wardens being able to spam it and get defensive stuns and heals. It has essentially brought back the old "unkillable" stamdens of yesteryear.

    Regarding deep fissure. This change is just maddening. I don't understand why they change the cascadence of the skill and force players to wait until 9s or face a damage nerf. The bonus damage on the 2nd hit puts the damage similar to magicka blast bones but that has a 3s window like shalks. The damage being loaded to the 2nd hit really hurts burst opportunities in pvp as you need to hit the target once to get the penetration then land then 2nd hit 6s later. What happens usually is the target gets low and runs or heals and you're stuck waiting for then fissure to fire again. Simply comparing damage output to other classes, most classes have a 3s burst window up to 6s max at which point you can do 30k+ Damage (spectral bow was hitting players for 18k and concealed weapon 12k) yet magicka warden gas to wait 9s to do 20k-25k damage.

    As a long time magicka warden player, I just can't get behind these changes and feel from a pvp perspective they just don't work in a fast and dynamic combat system. I will continue to try it but I can't see me using the class beyond a week based on how much I dislike the change.
    Unified Gaming - creating a shared and Unified Gaming community.

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  • Turtle_Bot
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    Turtle_Bot wrote: »
    While I can't comment on the changes regarding PVE, from PVP perspective, it feels really nice to play.

    It has a reliable hard CC to land burst properly, a strong burst heal that having a CC attached to, helps to get enemies off you when under pressure.

    It's burst combo lines up nicely for timing and doesn't feel all that clunky to use, yes even the second proc of shulks doesn't feel bad to line skills up with.

    I have tried it myself and I have to disagree as a long term magicka warden player..

    Arctic blast is a decsnt heal now and defensive stun but it doesn't help if the target chooses to keep away or runs. You can't stun offensively as a magicka warden easily. The change to arctic blast will REALLY help stamina wardens and is a good change for them. I can however see them nerfing this skill due to stamina wardens being able to spam it and get defensive stuns and heals. It has essentially brought back the old "unkillable" stamdens of yesteryear.

    Regarding deep fissure. This change is just maddening. I don't understand why they change the cascadence of the skill and force players to wait until 9s or face a damage nerf. The bonus damage on the 2nd hit puts the damage similar to magicka blast bones but that has a 3s window like shalks. The damage being loaded to the 2nd hit really hurts burst opportunities in pvp as you need to hit the target once to get the penetration then land then 2nd hit 6s later. What happens usually is the target gets low and runs or heals and you're stuck waiting for then fissure to fire again. Simply comparing damage output to other classes, most classes have a 3s burst window up to 6s max at which point you can do 30k+ Damage (spectral bow was hitting players for 18k and concealed weapon 12k) yet magicka warden gas to wait 9s to do 20k-25k damage.

    As a long time magicka warden player, I just can't get behind these changes and feel from a pvp perspective they just don't work in a fast and dynamic combat system. I will continue to try it but I can't see me using the class beyond a week based on how much I dislike the change.

    Fair enough, I'm a magsorc main myself, but have played all classes on and off over the years every time my main got gutted (I would go stamden most of the time or magdk before the buffs) and magden actually felt good to play this time, (at least my build did). It has immobilise to help land the combo at range and plenty of burst with the combo itself, especially when shalks hit lands. Haven't tested it in CP cyro yet, but for bg's it definitely puts in work.

    The Shalks change is probably less noticeable for me since I main another class and my playstyle isn't as rigid on the 3 second window for a burst so I'm used to having to wait longer to land a combo.
  • merpins
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    With the 55% nerf, then adding 30% to the new value, it doesn't even do 60% of what it did before the nerf. In fact, it only does 58% of the damage it did before the update. Dead skill, like most skills are this patch.
  • Necrotech_Master
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    i was taking a look at my mag warden last night and was noticing the numbers on the skill were pretty low, in the 850-900 range which was about the same or only slightly more dmg than wall of elements

    however i dont know if the tooltip actually reflects the destro staff bonus

    i havent specifically made any changes to his build yet, but i know his dmg is probably going to take a hit, i never really had a "spammable" before, his rotation was actually deep fissure -> heavy attack rotation (while dots were ticking)

    with the way swarm is 20 sec now, it almost makes sense to just double cast that every time to get the 60% dmg bonus

    arctic blast the burst heal is nice and i think stronger than before, but its going to be difficult to lose that heal over time although the dmg for 20 sec will be nice so i dont feel like i need to spam it unless i needed the heal

    i havent had a chance to run him through content to see where the pain points are in the build yet though
    plays PC/NA
    handle @Necrotech_Master
    active player since april 2014
  • Mr_Stach
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    i havent had a chance to run him through content to see where the pain points are in the build yet though

    This entire Patch is a Pain Point

    Altoholic, Frost Warden Sympathizer and Main

    Glacial Guardian - Main - Frost Warden Zealot
    The Frost Man Cometh - PC Frost Backup
  • Necrotech_Master
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    Mr_Stach wrote: »

    i havent had a chance to run him through content to see where the pain points are in the build yet though

    This entire Patch is a Pain Point

    well on my stamplar i was kind of worried what his dps would be like with all the laundry list of nerfs lol

    even after running a vet trial, his dmg was virtually unchanged from pre patch to post patch and the only change i did on the build was i dropped empowering sweep ultimate to dawnbreaker of smiting (still using biting jabs as his main spammable) (same trial pre and post patch, vDSR not HM, and with the same group)

    so until i run the mag warden character in some actual content i dont know how much i would need to change the character (if i want to bother at all)
    plays PC/NA
    handle @Necrotech_Master
    active player since april 2014
  • Nathyiel
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    The DOT nerf is global to all DOT and hut all class. But add all other Warden change, it's maddening.

    For Scorch, Adding a 9s Cooldown with immediate damage would be exactly the same and it would feel 1000x better to use. And the cooldown shouldn't be more than 3s or 4s with a single hit.

    As a Magden, the change to Winter's Revenge is OK at best. But Wall of Element is still equivalent or better without Crushing Wall staff.

    The only good change is Dive and the combo with Wall of Element with Shock staff if amazing

    My actual MagDen setup :
    • Removed Scorch completely, I use Element Drain for Major Breach.
    • Wall of Element with a Shock staff.

    I want to test to change Crushing Wall for Destructive Impact. I don't have the staff. But adding 600 spell damage over the 400 from Dive might help.
    But Destructive Touch seem buggy as hell. I don't know what the difference between no morph and Destructive Reach morph. And Destructive Clench isn't an option in PvE with a Frost Staff (but it's Shock Staff so no problem).


  • ESO_Nightingale
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    Nathyiel wrote: »
    The DOT nerf is global to all DOT and hut all class. But add all other Warden change, it's maddening.

    For Scorch, Adding a 9s Cooldown with immediate damage would be exactly the same and it would feel 1000x better to use. And the cooldown shouldn't be more than 3s or 4s with a single hit.

    As a Magden, the change to Winter's Revenge is OK at best. But Wall of Element is still equivalent or better without Crushing Wall staff.

    The only good change is Dive and the combo with Wall of Element with Shock staff if amazing

    My actual MagDen setup :
    • Removed Scorch completely, I use Element Drain for Major Breach.
    • Wall of Element with a Shock staff.

    I want to test to change Crushing Wall for Destructive Impact. I don't have the staff. But adding 600 spell damage over the 400 from Dive might help.
    But Destructive Touch seem buggy as hell. I don't know what the difference between no morph and Destructive Reach morph. And Destructive Clench isn't an option in PvE with a Frost Staff (but it's Shock Staff so no problem).


    the blast change is fairly good. but it really doesn't need to stun, heal and damage. it should probably drop the heal in order to get a green balance burst heal buffed.
    PvE Frost Warden Main and teacher for ESO-U. Frost Warden PvE Build Article: https://eso-u.com/articles/nightingales_warden_dps_guide__frost_knight. Come Join the ESO Frost Discord to discuss everything frost!: https://discord.gg/5PT3rQX
  • Nathyiel
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    the blast change is fairly good. but it really doesn't need to stun, heal and damage. it should probably drop the heal in order to get a green balance burst heal buffed.[/quote]

    I use it offensively with Ice Heart set. For the damage morph, the heal should be changed for damage.
  • Turtle_Bot
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    I think I figured out why I wasn't as affected by the timing changes to DF when I jumped onto my warden for this patch.

    As a sorc main, I'm used to haunting curse, which has a delay time of 3.5 seconds for the first instance of damage followed by 8.5 additional seconds delay for the second instance of damage for a total duration of 12 seconds for that skills burst. Combine this with its main damage being single target instead of AoE, it can be purged which means it deals no damage as it doesn't proc if purged, has no bonus damage on the second hit and also provides no additional effects like breach upon dealing damage to a target, DF actually feels busted to use in comparison, even with the fact that it doesn't stick to its target making it difficult to land.
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