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The skill Gap feels so much bigger now
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BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Everyone keeps saying tutorial but what would that tutorial actually be for?
Interrupts, blocking, roll dodging?
Or is it to teach animation canceling?
If it’s to teach animation canceling then I would say don’t bother. Even in games like wow, the people who do high end content is very small, and let’s be frank here, the combat in wow is better than the animation-canceling-multibar-combat-thing we have here. (And the combat in wow is not great to begin with.)
No one is moving to eso because of the amazing combat system, in fact the combat system is probably eso’s biggest problem.
Highlighting it’s clunky nature by having a tutorial would probably drive players away more than help them.3 -
carlos424✭✭✭✭✭Everyone keeps saying tutorial but what would that tutorial actually be for?
Interrupts, blocking, roll dodging?
Or is it to teach animation canceling?
If it’s to teach animation canceling then I would say don’t bother. Even in games like wow, the people who do high end content is very small, and let’s be frank here, the combat in wow is better than the animation-canceling-multibar-combat-thing we have here. (And the combat in wow is not great to begin with.)
No one is moving to eso because of the amazing combat system, in fact the combat system is probably eso’s biggest problem.
Highlighting it’s clunky nature by having a tutorial would probably drive players away more than help them.
Animation cancelling is a very small part of the dps gap. The real problem, which often gets overlooked, is that people don’t hit skills every second (every global cooldown). If you look at the cmx info page, there is a “weaving average” line. The “total” stat, basically gives you how much time you wasted between skills throughout the parse or fight. The top dps are under 10 seconds on a dummy parse. If you do a skill even every 1.25 seconds instead of every 1 second, you will be wasting 60 seconds over a 4 min parse. Thats a good 30k dps. That’s the damage difference. It’s not that people cannot track dot timers, or have perfect light attack weaving. Most people are just not using skills quite fast enough.12 -
BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Everyone keeps saying tutorial but what would that tutorial actually be for?
Interrupts, blocking, roll dodging?
Or is it to teach animation canceling?
If it’s to teach animation canceling then I would say don’t bother. Even in games like wow, the people who do high end content is very small, and let’s be frank here, the combat in wow is better than the animation-canceling-multibar-combat-thing we have here. (And the combat in wow is not great to begin with.)
No one is moving to eso because of the amazing combat system, in fact the combat system is probably eso’s biggest problem.
Highlighting it’s clunky nature by having a tutorial would probably drive players away more than help them.
Animation cancelling is a very small part of the dps gap. The real problem, which often gets overlooked, is that people don’t hit skills every second (every global cooldown). If you look at the cmx info page, there is a “weaving average” line. The “total” stat, basically gives you how much time you wasted between skills throughout the parse or fight. The top dps are under 10 seconds on a dummy parse. If you do a skill even every 1.25 seconds instead of every 1 second, you will be wasting 60 seconds over a 4 min parse. Thats a good 30k dps. That’s the damage difference. It’s not that people cannot track dot timers, or have perfect light attack weaving. Most people are just not using skills quite fast enough.
If combat is dependent upon 60 APM, then that is the chief problem.
I like watching star craft. And one of the announcers likes to do commentary on average-lower level played games. Those people hover around 20-40 APM. Which seems about right to me. I think that is the average players output, but I know of many players where their APM will be much lower than that.0 -
PrincessOfThieves✭✭✭✭✭
✭Everyone keeps saying tutorial but what would that tutorial actually be for?
Interrupts, blocking, roll dodging?
Or is it to teach animation canceling?
If it’s to teach animation canceling then I would say don’t bother. Even in games like wow, the people who do high end content is very small, and let’s be frank here, the combat in wow is better than the animation-canceling-multibar-combat-thing we have here. (And the combat in wow is not great to begin with.)
No one is moving to eso because of the amazing combat system, in fact the combat system is probably eso’s biggest problem.
Highlighting it’s clunky nature by having a tutorial would probably drive players away more than help them.
Animation cancelling is a very small part of the dps gap. The real problem, which often gets overlooked, is that people don’t hit skills every second (every global cooldown). If you look at the cmx info page, there is a “weaving average” line. The “total” stat, basically gives you how much time you wasted between skills throughout the parse or fight. The top dps are under 10 seconds on a dummy parse. If you do a skill even every 1.25 seconds instead of every 1 second, you will be wasting 60 seconds over a 4 min parse. Thats a good 30k dps. That’s the damage difference. It’s not that people cannot track dot timers, or have perfect light attack weaving. Most people are just not using skills quite fast enough.
If combat is dependent upon 60 APM, then that is the chief problem.
I like watching star craft. And one of the announcers likes to do commentary on average-lower level played games. Those people hover around 20-40 APM. Which seems about right to me. I think that is the average players output, but I know of many players where their APM will be much lower than that.
Competitive APM in Starcraft is much higher than in ESO, though
And it's a different type of game.
I don't think the problem is that casual players can't hit abilities fast enough, it's that they move around too much and let their dots fall off. Without that, most people can hit decent (not top tier, but decent) numbers.0 -
BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭PrincessOfThieves wrote: »Everyone keeps saying tutorial but what would that tutorial actually be for?
Interrupts, blocking, roll dodging?
Or is it to teach animation canceling?
If it’s to teach animation canceling then I would say don’t bother. Even in games like wow, the people who do high end content is very small, and let’s be frank here, the combat in wow is better than the animation-canceling-multibar-combat-thing we have here. (And the combat in wow is not great to begin with.)
No one is moving to eso because of the amazing combat system, in fact the combat system is probably eso’s biggest problem.
Highlighting it’s clunky nature by having a tutorial would probably drive players away more than help them.
Animation cancelling is a very small part of the dps gap. The real problem, which often gets overlooked, is that people don’t hit skills every second (every global cooldown). If you look at the cmx info page, there is a “weaving average” line. The “total” stat, basically gives you how much time you wasted between skills throughout the parse or fight. The top dps are under 10 seconds on a dummy parse. If you do a skill even every 1.25 seconds instead of every 1 second, you will be wasting 60 seconds over a 4 min parse. Thats a good 30k dps. That’s the damage difference. It’s not that people cannot track dot timers, or have perfect light attack weaving. Most people are just not using skills quite fast enough.
If combat is dependent upon 60 APM, then that is the chief problem.
I like watching star craft. And one of the announcers likes to do commentary on average-lower level played games. Those people hover around 20-40 APM. Which seems about right to me. I think that is the average players output, but I know of many players where their APM will be much lower than that.
Competitive APM in Starcraft is much higher than in ESO, though And it's a different type of game.
I don't think the problem is that casual players can't hit abilities fast enough, it's that they move around too much and let their dots fall off. Without that, most people can hit decent (not top tier, but decent) numbers.
That’s true, but I think the average player is about 20-40 APM. Competitive StarCraft APM can get really crazy, into the hundreds APM, but for the average person that’s not happening.
60 APM, that’s not a combat system the average player can accommodate.1 -
disintegr8✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Outside of PVP, I think the only people who care about what damage others are (or aren't) doing, are more capable players who insist on running in random groups (PUGs).
If how others are performing affects you that much, either help them improve or find 'better' players to run with and don't run with randoms.Australian on PS4 NA server.
Everyone's entitled to an opinion.1 -
CP5✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭That mentality is why we have the current state of the dungeon finder. Experienced players, particularly tanks, who are in PUGs with dps who just don't output the damage they are capable of can turn simple dungeons into nightmares. And how do you help these players? Advice and guidance on dungeon specific fights is one thing, but things like using buffs, getting out of aoes, not attacking invulnerable targets, bashing, it's like going to a bike race and having to teach people how to ride a bike.
Back when I was regularly pugging as a tank in vet dungeons, I would run into many players who would just stand still light attacking, in hazardous aoes, or other basic tactics because all the content before those dungeons is so easy that none of the skills or habits they need are ever introduced, let alone practiced.
When I would try to help people, on rare occasions it would help, but more often than not I was either ignored or told off for trying to tell others how to play the game. Newer players simply don't have a perspective of what the game offers in terms of combat, their own capabilities in that space, or the ability to practice those skills outside of a group environment, and then they get the idea that what they're used to in overland is both what is expected of them beyond that content and anything more demanding is unfairly so, and that those trying to show them things outside what they normally use are just being toxic and demanding too much of them.6 -
PrincessOfThieves✭✭✭✭✭
✭PrincessOfThieves wrote: »Everyone keeps saying tutorial but what would that tutorial actually be for?
Interrupts, blocking, roll dodging?
Or is it to teach animation canceling?
If it’s to teach animation canceling then I would say don’t bother. Even in games like wow, the people who do high end content is very small, and let’s be frank here, the combat in wow is better than the animation-canceling-multibar-combat-thing we have here. (And the combat in wow is not great to begin with.)
No one is moving to eso because of the amazing combat system, in fact the combat system is probably eso’s biggest problem.
Highlighting it’s clunky nature by having a tutorial would probably drive players away more than help them.
Animation cancelling is a very small part of the dps gap. The real problem, which often gets overlooked, is that people don’t hit skills every second (every global cooldown). If you look at the cmx info page, there is a “weaving average” line. The “total” stat, basically gives you how much time you wasted between skills throughout the parse or fight. The top dps are under 10 seconds on a dummy parse. If you do a skill even every 1.25 seconds instead of every 1 second, you will be wasting 60 seconds over a 4 min parse. Thats a good 30k dps. That’s the damage difference. It’s not that people cannot track dot timers, or have perfect light attack weaving. Most people are just not using skills quite fast enough.
If combat is dependent upon 60 APM, then that is the chief problem.
I like watching star craft. And one of the announcers likes to do commentary on average-lower level played games. Those people hover around 20-40 APM. Which seems about right to me. I think that is the average players output, but I know of many players where their APM will be much lower than that.
Competitive APM in Starcraft is much higher than in ESO, though And it's a different type of game.
I don't think the problem is that casual players can't hit abilities fast enough, it's that they move around too much and let their dots fall off. Without that, most people can hit decent (not top tier, but decent) numbers.
That’s true, but I think the average player is about 20-40 APM. Competitive StarCraft APM can get really crazy, into the hundreds APM, but for the average person that’s not happening.
60 APM, that’s not a combat system the average player can accommodate.
You need relatively high APM to play optimally. An average ESO player doesn't care about optimal dps, though. Non-meta builds are very popular - Xynode, Hack the Minotaur and other non-meta creators have tons of views and subscribers, and many people outright refuse to play the optimal (meta) way.
Dps only really matters in veteran content, and even then most dungeons and even hardmodes can be done with like 50% of highest possible dps. So I would not say that ESO APM requirements are that high. They are high for people who want to do trial hardmodes and especially trifectas, but those people are the most hardcore minority and usually don't have problems with that.0 -
Tsilara✭✭✭PrincessOfThieves wrote: »
You need relatively high APM to play optimally. An average ESO player doesn't care about optimal dps, though. Non-meta builds are very popular - Xynode, Hack the Minotaur and other non-meta creators have tons of views and subscribers, and many people outright refuse to play the optimal (meta) way.
Dps only really matters in veteran content, and even then most dungeons and even hardmodes can be done with like 50% of highest possible dps. So I would not say that ESO APM requirements are that high. They are high for people who want to do trial hardmodes and especially trifectas, but those people are the most hardcore minority and usually don't have problems with that.
Most people who are sticking around gave up on progression and endgame and prefer those non-optimal but fun builds that can't handle vet content without being carried by everyone else.
Aside from the u35 fertilizer, the bigger issue I have been seeing is latency and de-sync related problems that came around the time of the NA hardware changes and seem to be getting worse with every patch and major update.. Ever since then, my latency has gone up and continues to rise. My edge has changed regionally too.
I get lag when obviously crossing different boundaries on a map, say leaving a city and going out into the wild not using a door and just walking across that boundary. Random and unannounced instance shifts in the middle of an activity.
I see a significantly more de-sync deaths in random vets and even normal trials, where the player is outside of the one shot area of effect and still gets hit. I experience those nearly every time I login.
Animations that used to act as tells, such as the Troll boss in Icereach who used to knock a player into the air and lock them down requiring an interrupt... that animation no longer plays on some peoples computers, mine included. I just spam interrupts in that fight since I can't see the effect anymore. A couple of other fights no longer even show ground effects reliably, such as DC2, iirc the Mezeluth fight in CH2, fulminating void is broken and both the pull and ground effects don't always appear on screen so you think you roll to safety and you are not. There are many others.
Its almost as if they migrated to Azure for aspects of their game.
Their comment of want to look over the u35 changes is very interesting. I've seen this before out of the marketing and community groups of days past on some other great games that were destroyed by changes to core aspects which built the game and its revenue stream and fan base in the first place.
Only really one or two of those other games, ever dug themselves out of that hole and it took nearly a decade and some significant internal staffing changes and departures of the people who caused the problem in the first place.
The messaging is ironic and to my eyes "the evaluation of u35 changes" is double speak for we f'd up, they know it, and they don't know how to fix it.Edited by Tsilara on September 18, 2022 7:55AM8 -
BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭PrincessOfThieves wrote: »PrincessOfThieves wrote: »Everyone keeps saying tutorial but what would that tutorial actually be for?
Interrupts, blocking, roll dodging?
Or is it to teach animation canceling?
If it’s to teach animation canceling then I would say don’t bother. Even in games like wow, the people who do high end content is very small, and let’s be frank here, the combat in wow is better than the animation-canceling-multibar-combat-thing we have here. (And the combat in wow is not great to begin with.)
No one is moving to eso because of the amazing combat system, in fact the combat system is probably eso’s biggest problem.
Highlighting it’s clunky nature by having a tutorial would probably drive players away more than help them.
Animation cancelling is a very small part of the dps gap. The real problem, which often gets overlooked, is that people don’t hit skills every second (every global cooldown). If you look at the cmx info page, there is a “weaving average” line. The “total” stat, basically gives you how much time you wasted between skills throughout the parse or fight. The top dps are under 10 seconds on a dummy parse. If you do a skill even every 1.25 seconds instead of every 1 second, you will be wasting 60 seconds over a 4 min parse. Thats a good 30k dps. That’s the damage difference. It’s not that people cannot track dot timers, or have perfect light attack weaving. Most people are just not using skills quite fast enough.
If combat is dependent upon 60 APM, then that is the chief problem.
I like watching star craft. And one of the announcers likes to do commentary on average-lower level played games. Those people hover around 20-40 APM. Which seems about right to me. I think that is the average players output, but I know of many players where their APM will be much lower than that.
Competitive APM in Starcraft is much higher than in ESO, though And it's a different type of game.
I don't think the problem is that casual players can't hit abilities fast enough, it's that they move around too much and let their dots fall off. Without that, most people can hit decent (not top tier, but decent) numbers.
That’s true, but I think the average player is about 20-40 APM. Competitive StarCraft APM can get really crazy, into the hundreds APM, but for the average person that’s not happening.
60 APM, that’s not a combat system the average player can accommodate.
You need relatively high APM to play optimally. An average ESO player doesn't care about optimal dps, though. Non-meta builds are very popular - Xynode, Hack the Minotaur and other non-meta creators have tons of views and subscribers, and many people outright refuse to play the optimal (meta) way.
Dps only really matters in veteran content, and even then most dungeons and even hardmodes can be done with like 50% of highest possible dps. So I would not say that ESO APM requirements are that high. They are high for people who want to do trial hardmodes and especially trifectas, but those people are the most hardcore minority and usually don't have problems with that.
Well we are talking about skill gaps here and I was responding to someone who said:
(Bold for emphasis.)Everyone keeps saying tutorial but what would that tutorial actually be for?
Interrupts, blocking, roll dodging?
Or is it to teach animation canceling?
If it’s to teach animation canceling then I would say don’t bother. Even in games like wow, the people who do high end content is very small, and let’s be frank here, the combat in wow is better than the animation-canceling-multibar-combat-thing we have here. (And the combat in wow is not great to begin with.)
No one is moving to eso because of the amazing combat system, in fact the combat system is probably eso’s biggest problem.
Highlighting it’s clunky nature by having a tutorial would probably drive players away more than help them.
Animation cancelling is a very small part of the dps gap. The real problem, which often gets overlooked, is that people don’t hit skills every second (every global cooldown). If you look at the cmx info page, there is a “weaving average” line. The “total” stat, basically gives you how much time you wasted between skills throughout the parse or fight. The top dps are under 10 seconds on a dummy parse. If you do a skill even every 1.25 seconds instead of every 1 second, you will be wasting 60 seconds over a 4 min parse. Thats a good 30k dps. That’s the damage difference. It’s not that people cannot track dot timers, or have perfect light attack weaving. Most people are just not using skills quite fast enough.
I was simply pointing out that the average person can’t really do that (60 APM).
Your saying that high APM is only important to play optimally. So I feel I am caught between you two.
Either high APM is important or it’s not, I can’t say (it probably is?). I am just saying high APM is not what the average player can do.
0 -
carlos424✭✭✭✭✭Everyone keeps saying tutorial but what would that tutorial actually be for?
Interrupts, blocking, roll dodging?
Or is it to teach animation canceling?
If it’s to teach animation canceling then I would say don’t bother. Even in games like wow, the people who do high end content is very small, and let’s be frank here, the combat in wow is better than the animation-canceling-multibar-combat-thing we have here. (And the combat in wow is not great to begin with.)
No one is moving to eso because of the amazing combat system, in fact the combat system is probably eso’s biggest problem.
Highlighting it’s clunky nature by having a tutorial would probably drive players away more than help them.
Animation cancelling is a very small part of the dps gap. The real problem, which often gets overlooked, is that people don’t hit skills every second (every global cooldown). If you look at the cmx info page, there is a “weaving average” line. The “total” stat, basically gives you how much time you wasted between skills throughout the parse or fight. The top dps are under 10 seconds on a dummy parse. If you do a skill even every 1.25 seconds instead of every 1 second, you will be wasting 60 seconds over a 4 min parse. Thats a good 30k dps. That’s the damage difference. It’s not that people cannot track dot timers, or have perfect light attack weaving. Most people are just not using skills quite fast enough.
If combat is dependent upon 60 APM, then that is the chief problem.
I like watching star craft. And one of the announcers likes to do commentary on average-lower level played games. Those people hover around 20-40 APM. Which seems about right to me. I think that is the average players output, but I know of many players where their APM will be much lower than that.
One one thousand, skill, two one thousand, skill, doesn’t seem that fast to me, but maybe it is for some people. I think people get stuck watching the animations and wait for them to completely end, before recasting, which is too late. I have actually seen people go too fast and get frustrated that skills are not going off. It’s all about getting the timing down.2 -
CompM4s✭✭✭✭✭There is nothing ZOS can do about people not understanding to stay out of red circles.4 -
haelgaan✭✭✭✭✭to the comments above talking about 20-40 APM, and 60 APM...
a properly weaved DPS is around 120 actions per minute (one LA and also one skill per tick), not 60.
(yeah, i get your point that you were just talking about skills, but if you're talking about player habits in general look at the whole number)
hmm and that's not even counting bar swaps, so >120...
if "average" (apparently, the non-sweaty variety) players muster around 20-40 APM, then that indeed would be a huge contributor to the gap.
what i wonder is what ZOS will do 'raise the floor'
Will they do something to lower the APM needed to get higher DPS, while also not enabling high APM players to get even higher DPS?
Edited by haelgaan on September 18, 2022 3:05PM3 -
Arthtur✭✭✭✭✭
✭There is already a way to lower needed APM. Oakensoul and heavy attack builds. Using 1 bar HA build needs only 60 APM or in other words 2 actions every 2s (HA has a channel time of 1.8s). Its sounds a lot but in reality u can just hold attack button all the time and just press a skill every 2s (u dont have to time it, even if u use it during a channel of HA it will cast the skill at the end of it). In the end u need 30 APM. Thats over 4 times less than LA weaving and a lot easier in sustain, proper rotation etc. And thats a number that everyone should be able to get.
HA got some buffs (empower) and it should be good enough for most content.
About APM for LA weaving, u cant reduce it without killing fast combat that many players like. And if ZOS would want to do it i would be first one to leave. I wouldnt even comment on it.
So instead of trying to make LA weaving easier, its better to make HA builds better.4 -
wolfie1.0.✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭The problem is really that much of what there is to learn about eso combat was and has been up to the playerbase to learn and communicate to each other.
It doesn't help that there is such a difficulty gap between normal and vet dungeons. The skill gap is not just between players. It's in the game itself.
For example: compare the difference between normal FG1 and the vet HM for the latest dlcs. The skill gap is massive. It goes from the ability to clear with no mechanics, little need for a tank/healer or even another player up to a very very punishing dungeon where you need to learn and adapt to mechanics as well as have some group coordination to clear.
Such is a good example of what the problem is and also highlights how the playerbase differs. Making FG1 normals harder won't change the skill gap. Finding a way to teach, encourage, and providing incentives to transition from fg1 normals to harder content IS what will reduce the gap.4 -
PrincessOfThieves✭✭✭✭✭
✭PrincessOfThieves wrote: »PrincessOfThieves wrote: »Everyone keeps saying tutorial but what would that tutorial actually be for?
Interrupts, blocking, roll dodging?
Or is it to teach animation canceling?
If it’s to teach animation canceling then I would say don’t bother. Even in games like wow, the people who do high end content is very small, and let’s be frank here, the combat in wow is better than the animation-canceling-multibar-combat-thing we have here. (And the combat in wow is not great to begin with.)
No one is moving to eso because of the amazing combat system, in fact the combat system is probably eso’s biggest problem.
Highlighting it’s clunky nature by having a tutorial would probably drive players away more than help them.
Animation cancelling is a very small part of the dps gap. The real problem, which often gets overlooked, is that people don’t hit skills every second (every global cooldown). If you look at the cmx info page, there is a “weaving average” line. The “total” stat, basically gives you how much time you wasted between skills throughout the parse or fight. The top dps are under 10 seconds on a dummy parse. If you do a skill even every 1.25 seconds instead of every 1 second, you will be wasting 60 seconds over a 4 min parse. Thats a good 30k dps. That’s the damage difference. It’s not that people cannot track dot timers, or have perfect light attack weaving. Most people are just not using skills quite fast enough.
If combat is dependent upon 60 APM, then that is the chief problem.
I like watching star craft. And one of the announcers likes to do commentary on average-lower level played games. Those people hover around 20-40 APM. Which seems about right to me. I think that is the average players output, but I know of many players where their APM will be much lower than that.
Competitive APM in Starcraft is much higher than in ESO, though And it's a different type of game.
I don't think the problem is that casual players can't hit abilities fast enough, it's that they move around too much and let their dots fall off. Without that, most people can hit decent (not top tier, but decent) numbers.
That’s true, but I think the average player is about 20-40 APM. Competitive StarCraft APM can get really crazy, into the hundreds APM, but for the average person that’s not happening.
60 APM, that’s not a combat system the average player can accommodate.
You need relatively high APM to play optimally. An average ESO player doesn't care about optimal dps, though. Non-meta builds are very popular - Xynode, Hack the Minotaur and other non-meta creators have tons of views and subscribers, and many people outright refuse to play the optimal (meta) way.
Dps only really matters in veteran content, and even then most dungeons and even hardmodes can be done with like 50% of highest possible dps. So I would not say that ESO APM requirements are that high. They are high for people who want to do trial hardmodes and especially trifectas, but those people are the most hardcore minority and usually don't have problems with that.
Well we are talking about skill gaps here and I was responding to someone who said:
(Bold for emphasis.)Everyone keeps saying tutorial but what would that tutorial actually be for?
Interrupts, blocking, roll dodging?
Or is it to teach animation canceling?
If it’s to teach animation canceling then I would say don’t bother. Even in games like wow, the people who do high end content is very small, and let’s be frank here, the combat in wow is better than the animation-canceling-multibar-combat-thing we have here. (And the combat in wow is not great to begin with.)
No one is moving to eso because of the amazing combat system, in fact the combat system is probably eso’s biggest problem.
Highlighting it’s clunky nature by having a tutorial would probably drive players away more than help them.
Animation cancelling is a very small part of the dps gap. The real problem, which often gets overlooked, is that people don’t hit skills every second (every global cooldown). If you look at the cmx info page, there is a “weaving average” line. The “total” stat, basically gives you how much time you wasted between skills throughout the parse or fight. The top dps are under 10 seconds on a dummy parse. If you do a skill even every 1.25 seconds instead of every 1 second, you will be wasting 60 seconds over a 4 min parse. Thats a good 30k dps. That’s the damage difference. It’s not that people cannot track dot timers, or have perfect light attack weaving. Most people are just not using skills quite fast enough.
I was simply pointing out that the average person can’t really do that (60 APM).
Your saying that high APM is only important to play optimally. So I feel I am caught between you two.
Either high APM is important or it’s not, I can’t say (it probably is?). I am just saying high APM is not what the average player can do.
It's true that U35 increased the skill gap. But 60 APM is very much doable for an average person, I'm a casual player and I have around that. I don't have superhuman reflexes, I actually have a mild disability which makes it harder for me. But unlike Starcraft, ESO rotations do not require quick decision making, it's just a pattern you can learn.3 -
guarstompemoji✭✭✭✭
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EU_rpgIU1vA
Dotz discusses this issue, and its solutions, eloquently. He brings up many points that have been expressed over and over again in the forums, but brings them together in a cohesive way.2 -
deleted221205-002626✭✭✭✭✭IMO theres two major problems.
1. Many cant do mechs, dodge or block etc
2. Many dont use ALL skills, abilities and passives available to them so theyre healing/dps drops way off to new player level.
Its important to build to your interests but also to your character strengths! Like if your a templar make sure your hitting that dawns wrath ability every 20secs for illuminate(minor sorcery for group). Templar are capable of alot of "off balance" as well so make sure you utilizing that in CP and sets/abilties for additional damage.. etc etc
I see people not doing this and just light attacking like they're half asleep wearing non-complimentary gear which is why they hurt so bad! Everything you need to know is in your abilities and passives if you read them!Edited by deleted221205-002626 on September 19, 2022 9:48AM7 -
BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭guarstompemoji wrote: »https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EU_rpgIU1vA
Dotz discusses this issue, and its solutions, eloquently. He brings up many points that have been expressed over and over again in the forums, but brings them together in a cohesive way.
One of them is to increase overland difficulty. Which is just a punishment to people who are not part of this problem.4 -
CP5✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭To be frank, "increasing overland difficulty" by undoing the changes ZOS did ages ago when they made tank mobs more damaging/less durable and damage dealing mobs less damaging/more durable would actually help, since if enemies are able to be different enough for those differences to actually be noticed, it'd add some texture to the overland and give some meaningful differences in how people approach encounters. Difficulty through every encounter not being exactly the same, not by making the mobs themselves more challenging or demanding.2 -
deleted221205-002626✭✭✭✭✭To be frank, "increasing overland difficulty" by undoing the changes ZOS did ages ago when they made tank mobs more damaging/less durable and damage dealing mobs less damaging/more durable would actually help, since if enemies are able to be different enough for those differences to actually be noticed, it'd add some texture to the overland and give some meaningful differences in how people approach encounters. Difficulty through every encounter not being exactly the same, not by making the mobs themselves more challenging or demanding.
I agree with this.. in 2014 things were much more balanced and overland content was actually challenging but maybe too challenging and was difficult to solo as tank or heals. Now its the reverse and overland is far too easy and vet or hardmode content is still incredibly challenging creating a huge gap and not preparing new players well for more advanced content!4 -
BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭To be frank, "increasing overland difficulty" by undoing the changes ZOS did ages ago when they made tank mobs more damaging/less durable and damage dealing mobs less damaging/more durable would actually help, since if enemies are able to be different enough for those differences to actually be noticed, it'd add some texture to the overland and give some meaningful differences in how people approach encounters. Difficulty through every encounter not being exactly the same, not by making the mobs themselves more challenging or demanding.
I agree with this.. in 2014 things were much more balanced and overland content was actually challenging but maybe too challenging and was difficult to solo as tank or heals. Now its the reverse and overland is far too easy and vet or hardmode content is still incredibly challenging creating a huge gap and not preparing new players well for more advanced content!
The problem is that you are punishing people like this:Kiralyn2000 wrote: »Captain_Devildog wrote: »BUT HOLD YOUR HORSES!!!
Litterally every person i met in this game, doesn't matter if they are new or doing questing all day. Or they are casual or whatever.. Litterally all of them did veteran and pvp maybe hm sometimes even when they did questing all day they still played all the other aspects of the game.
Been playing since 2016. I've never done a trial, I've never had a character step a single foot in Cyro or IC, I've run less than 10 dungeons in normal mode, and never done anything vet. Never joined a guild or sold anything to another player or used a target dummy. I quest, zone, craft, house, thief, gather, explore, do holidays that aren't PvP or dungeon. I've got 8 characters.
People like this, I feel, are the majority of the players. And making overland more difficult, is just making their lives more difficult in a long shot attempt to help bolster a section of the game that is in the vast minority.
Most players do slightly more damage than their companions, while some players are doing 25x that damage. That is far too wide a gap. The top end needs to be pushed down, and the dps requirements of the difficult content needs to come down as well.
Leave players who are not part of this problem out of it.5 -
deleted221205-002626✭✭✭✭✭
People like this, I feel, are the majority of the players. And making overland more difficult, is just making their lives more difficult in a long shot attempt to help bolster a section of the game that is in the vast minority.
Most players do slightly more damage than their companions, while some players are doing 25x that damage. That is far too wide a gap. The top end needs to be pushed down, and the dps requirements of the difficult content needs to come down as well.
Leave players who are not part of this problem out of it.
That sounds great and wonderful except how do you expect that to happen? The reason some players have high dps is they have complimentary gear and actually push buttons! THATS THE SECRET WEAPON!! Those 2 things are all thats needed to do well in ESO! Understand your character and participate!Edited by deleted221205-002626 on September 19, 2022 11:35AM6 -
BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
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People like this, I feel, are the majority of the players. And making overland more difficult, is just making their lives more difficult in a long shot attempt to help bolster a section of the game that is in the vast minority.
Most players do slightly more damage than their companions, while some players are doing 25x that damage. That is far too wide a gap. The top end needs to be pushed down, and the dps requirements of the difficult content needs to come down as well.
Leave players who are not part of this problem out of it.
That sounds great and wonderful except how do you expect that to happen? The reason some players have high dps is they have complimentary gear and actually push buttons! THATS THE SECRET WEAPON!! Those 2 things are all thats needed to do well in ESO! Understand your character and participate!
Are you talking about players who do vet content? Because most players do not want to do vet content, most players don’t want to even do normal dungeons.
They are not bothering you. No need to punish the people who just do overland.1 -
deleted221205-002626✭✭✭✭✭
People like this, I feel, are the majority of the players. And making overland more difficult, is just making their lives more difficult in a long shot attempt to help bolster a section of the game that is in the vast minority.
Most players do slightly more damage than their companions, while some players are doing 25x that damage. That is far too wide a gap. The top end needs to be pushed down, and the dps requirements of the difficult content needs to come down as well.
Leave players who are not part of this problem out of it.
That sounds great and wonderful except how do you expect that to happen? The reason some players have high dps is they have complimentary gear and actually push buttons! THATS THE SECRET WEAPON!! Those 2 things are all thats needed to do well in ESO! Understand your character and participate!
Are you talking about players who do vet content? Because most players do not want to do vet content, most players don’t want to even do normal dungeons.
They are not bothering you. No need to punish the people who just do overland.
Define punish? Balancing challenge/reward I dont see as punishing. The easier something is the more worthless it is and the rewards that come from it. Your saying you'd prefer overland content to be much easier because you feel its a waste and JUST WANT THE LOOT? or what? Or you find overland content actually challenging now?0 -
BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
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People like this, I feel, are the majority of the players. And making overland more difficult, is just making their lives more difficult in a long shot attempt to help bolster a section of the game that is in the vast minority.
Most players do slightly more damage than their companions, while some players are doing 25x that damage. That is far too wide a gap. The top end needs to be pushed down, and the dps requirements of the difficult content needs to come down as well.
Leave players who are not part of this problem out of it.
That sounds great and wonderful except how do you expect that to happen? The reason some players have high dps is they have complimentary gear and actually push buttons! THATS THE SECRET WEAPON!! Those 2 things are all thats needed to do well in ESO! Understand your character and participate!
Are you talking about players who do vet content? Because most players do not want to do vet content, most players don’t want to even do normal dungeons.
They are not bothering you. No need to punish the people who just do overland.
Define punish? Balancing challenge/reward I dont see as punishing. The easier something is the more worthless it is and the rewards that come from it. Your saying you'd prefer overland content to be much easier because you feel its a waste and JUST WANT THE LOOT? or what? Or you find overland content actually challenging now?
You are targeting the wrong set of people.
Maybe there needs to be an intermediate dungeon range between normal and vet, or the difficulty of normal needs to be raised slightly. But people who stay in overland content are not the ones making your dungeon run go slower.
They are not involved with the vet content issue. They don’t want to be involved with the vet content issue. Leave them out of it.4 -
deleted221205-002626✭✭✭✭✭
People like this, I feel, are the majority of the players. And making overland more difficult, is just making their lives more difficult in a long shot attempt to help bolster a section of the game that is in the vast minority.
Most players do slightly more damage than their companions, while some players are doing 25x that damage. That is far too wide a gap. The top end needs to be pushed down, and the dps requirements of the difficult content needs to come down as well.
Leave players who are not part of this problem out of it.
That sounds great and wonderful except how do you expect that to happen? The reason some players have high dps is they have complimentary gear and actually push buttons! THATS THE SECRET WEAPON!! Those 2 things are all thats needed to do well in ESO! Understand your character and participate!
Are you talking about players who do vet content? Because most players do not want to do vet content, most players don’t want to even do normal dungeons.
They are not bothering you. No need to punish the people who just do overland.
Define punish? Balancing challenge/reward I dont see as punishing. The easier something is the more worthless it is and the rewards that come from it. Your saying you'd prefer overland content to be much easier because you feel its a waste and JUST WANT THE LOOT? or what? Or you find overland content actually challenging now?
You are targeting the wrong set of people.
Maybe there needs to be an intermediate dungeon range between normal and vet, or the difficulty of normal needs to be raised slightly. But people who stay in overland content are not the ones making your dungeon run go slower.
They are not involved with the vet content issue. They don’t want to be involved with the vet content issue. Leave them out of it.
??? IM not sure who your talking about but to me it sounds very much like the people that aren't or can't do vet content that complain about its difficulty. The ones that can do vet content aren't the ones on the forums complaining about its difficulty0 -
stevenyaub16_ESO✭✭✭✭It's more like 120APM to DPS because you light attack before each skill + barswaps.
Agree that having a tutorial that teaches you to do this and push you to weave faster would turn away the majority of new players.
It's a completely unique system that no gamer outside of ESO has ever had to do.
Is it bad? Matter of taste. I find it satisfying. But at the same time, I think it's a god awful way to play a game.0 -
BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
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People like this, I feel, are the majority of the players. And making overland more difficult, is just making their lives more difficult in a long shot attempt to help bolster a section of the game that is in the vast minority.
Most players do slightly more damage than their companions, while some players are doing 25x that damage. That is far too wide a gap. The top end needs to be pushed down, and the dps requirements of the difficult content needs to come down as well.
Leave players who are not part of this problem out of it.
That sounds great and wonderful except how do you expect that to happen? The reason some players have high dps is they have complimentary gear and actually push buttons! THATS THE SECRET WEAPON!! Those 2 things are all thats needed to do well in ESO! Understand your character and participate!
Are you talking about players who do vet content? Because most players do not want to do vet content, most players don’t want to even do normal dungeons.
They are not bothering you. No need to punish the people who just do overland.
Define punish? Balancing challenge/reward I dont see as punishing. The easier something is the more worthless it is and the rewards that come from it. Your saying you'd prefer overland content to be much easier because you feel its a waste and JUST WANT THE LOOT? or what? Or you find overland content actually challenging now?
You are targeting the wrong set of people.
Maybe there needs to be an intermediate dungeon range between normal and vet, or the difficulty of normal needs to be raised slightly. But people who stay in overland content are not the ones making your dungeon run go slower.
They are not involved with the vet content issue. They don’t want to be involved with the vet content issue. Leave them out of it.
??? IM not sure who your talking about but to me it sounds very much like the people that aren't or can't do vet content that complain about its difficulty. The ones that can do vet content aren't the ones on the forums complaining about its difficulty
If the amount of people completing vet content was sufficiently strong, we would not be having this conversation because zos would not have an issue.
The problem comes down to money and budgets. If the cost of production of new vet content is out pacing its participation rate, then questions get asked about why they are producing that content. And those concerns are probably coming from the budget people, not the forums.
Zos is trying to increase the accessibility of vet content. Notice they are not trying to increase the participation rate of normal content. That’s significant.
The transition from overland to normal they are alright with. It’s the transition from normal to vet they are targeting.
Overland difficulty is fine for normal dungeons. It’s getting people from normal to vet. That is who you should targeting with your suggestions.3 -
CP5✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I would disagree about overland being fine for normal dungeons, since it is easy to overlook mechanics in normal dungeons that newer players haven't had much exposure to in overland, and that overland is the largest piece of content in the game that the core potential of the combat system should be seen there. This way people can get a better idea of what ESO combat actually looks like, as many people leave with a poor first impression, as well as providing a place for them to practice things outside of group content, but since no enemies use any tactics that really encourage anything beyond light attacking they instead encourage bad habits.
Trolls used to act as soft dps checks, wasting a large amount of their own time on easy to avoid aoe attacks while having large health pools and strong passive health regen. Something like this provides a chance for people to organically learn if they still have room to grow in a particular area, like using multiple damage over time abilities, but with encounters being so similar and demanding so little of players to clear, they never encounter adversity until they're surrounded by strangers in content they're unprepared for. Then that leads to a lot of the conflict that is then shared that drives a wedge between different groups that really shouldn't be there.4