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The skill Gap feels so much bigger now
FeedbackOnly
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There's people who have adjusted to update 35 and there's those very far behind and they don't even know why.
My complaint is we should adjust people better to patches. People did dungeons they got carried in and don't understand what's going on now.
Lastly I don't see how this was supposed to increase accessibility yet. It honestly makes me not want to play with drastically weaker players because not only do they not know the mechics anymore, but they are using wrong skills.
An afterthought long ago heavy attack and light attacks were buffed to help make dungeon better for the clueless. This worked and now we feel the problem again that @ZOS_Wrobel had fixed.
Please make a better tutorial for the game. This patch has not helped improve accessibility.
My complaint is we should adjust people better to patches. People did dungeons they got carried in and don't understand what's going on now.
Lastly I don't see how this was supposed to increase accessibility yet. It honestly makes me not want to play with drastically weaker players because not only do they not know the mechics anymore, but they are using wrong skills.
An afterthought long ago heavy attack and light attacks were buffed to help make dungeon better for the clueless. This worked and now we feel the problem again that @ZOS_Wrobel had fixed.
Please make a better tutorial for the game. This patch has not helped improve accessibility.
37
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LordRukia✭✭✭✭High end players are always going to do insane damage and ZoS will continue to beat the casuals into the ground for it.
73 -
Elendir2am✭✭✭✭Any nerf of all players increase skill gap. More skilled players know game better and are able do some mitigation. Most part of game were easy for them so they can do it easyly henceforward. Only less skilled players suffer whole nerf and nerf has impact on more parts of their gamplaye.PvP - Recruit.
PvE - Dragon food
RPG - A guy who thought, that he can defeat daedric prince, yet guards still chase him off when he accidentally touches some object during daily writs.26 -
Ghaleb✭✭✭✭✭FeedbackOnly wrote: »[…]This patch has not helped improve accessibility.
A vision, roadmap or at least a Q&A on explaining these changes would have helped. I wonder if that had been asked before. I’d assume, ZOS would have delivered one for sure if somebody would have asked by now, right? Right folks? /sarcasm off
But I agree. As replied to ZOS exhaustingly after the announcement, during PTS and after go-live. Their announcement doesn’t fit to the changes applied.
I’ll repeat myself a last time to slowly disengage with the forum and the game:
[snip]
Maybe a vision, roadmap or q&a would clarify things but ZOS prefers to stay quiet which is all the answers I, and seemingly many others I read on the forums in the past weeks, need to understand what # it is.
And yeah, the tutorial needs a heavy overhaul to deserve the name.
[edited for bashing]Edited by ZOS_Icy on September 18, 2022 1:35PM30 -
Klingenlied✭✭✭✭FeedbackOnly wrote: »[…]This patch has not helped improve accessibility.
A vision, roadmap or at least a Q&A on explaining these changes would have helped. I wonder if that had been asked before. I’d assume, ZOS would have delivered one for sure if somebody would have asked by now, right? Right folks? /sarcasm off
But I agree. As replied to ZOS exhaustingly after the announcement, during PTS and after go-live. Their announcement doesn’t fit to the changes applied.
I’ll repeat myself a last time to slowly disengage with the forum and the game:
[snip]
Maybe a vision, roadmap or q&a would clarify things but ZOS prefers to stay quiet which is all the answers I, and seemingly many others I read on the forums in the past weeks, need to understand what # it is.
And yeah, the tutorial needs a heavy overhaul to deserve the name.
Pretty much this.
However, don't disregard the woes of those "high end" players. There never have been that much anyway. And those communities only work with enough people to fill those raids. Not everyone likes to regear or refarm stuff or switch the main again every few months. Anyway, worst off is mid tier I think. I mean it feels like the community now is actively dismantling itself. New players? They normally don't get a chance to do anything anymore. See a low CP in dlc vet? Kick. Want go raiding but don't have clear already? Access denied. Want kill that world boss you can't solo? Wait some extra time because there is generally less players.
Outside of premade groups, ESO seems like one of the worst toxic cesspools there is.
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on September 18, 2022 1:36PM18 -
FeedbackOnly✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Klingenlied wrote: »FeedbackOnly wrote: »[…]This patch has not helped improve accessibility.
A vision, roadmap or at least a Q&A on explaining these changes would have helped. I wonder if that had been asked before. I’d assume, ZOS would have delivered one for sure if somebody would have asked by now, right? Right folks? /sarcasm off
But I agree. As replied to ZOS exhaustingly after the announcement, during PTS and after go-live. Their announcement doesn’t fit to the changes applied.
I’ll repeat myself a last time to slowly disengage with the forum and the game:
[snip]
Maybe a vision, roadmap or q&a would clarify things but ZOS prefers to stay quiet which is all the answers I, and seemingly many others I read on the forums in the past weeks, need to understand what # it is.
And yeah, the tutorial needs a heavy overhaul to deserve the name.
Pretty much this.
However, don't disregard the woes of those "high end" players. There never have been that much anyway. And those communities only work with enough people to fill those raids. Not everyone likes to regear or refarm stuff or switch the main again every few months. Anyway, worst off is mid tier I think. I mean it feels like the community now is actively dismantling itself. New players? They normally don't get a chance to do anything anymore. See a low CP in dlc vet? Kick. Want go raiding but don't have clear already? Access denied. Want kill that world boss you can't solo? Wait some extra time because there is generally less players.
Outside of premade groups, ESO seems like one of the worst toxic cesspools there is.
There would be more high end players if they helped adjust people better. Like they didn't think through on how common players are supposed to adapt fo litterally revamped gameplay. It's not the same game.
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on September 18, 2022 1:36PM6 -
endgamesmug✭✭✭✭My damage is all good , i just cant be bothered anymore so im farming fungal grotto 1 like everybody else 😆. Always something else to get into and do, might also be a good time to grind that 2nd account-nothing challenging in other words. Heres to u36 😀 and positive changes?2
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TaSheen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭After a few minor changes to rotation, my damage is fine. I continue to play as I always have. But since I'm one of those "filthy casuals" I don't really count of course.______________________________________________________
"But even in books, the heroes make mistakes, and there isn't always a happy ending." Mercedes Lackey, Into the West
PC NA, PC EU (non steam)- four accounts, many alts....7 -
virtus753✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭To the point about a new tutorial, I would not expect anything.
In one of the livestreams that was done closer to the debut of U35, the devs said that there were two major impediments to an expanded or new tutorial:
1) The combat taught in the tutorial needs not to change. Their point here is that a new tutorial would need to remain applicable for years to be worthwhile. They implied that combat would continue to change in a way that would render new tutorial features inaccurate or inapplicable down the line. That doesn’t address the question of things like light attack weaving and animation cancelling, which have been around a very long time and don’t seem to be going anywhere. (Their second point might address this.) But their objection here strongly suggests major combat changes are going to keep happening regularly, so they can’t teach new players what they’re just going to change in the future.
2) They do not have the time or resources for a new tutorial because they are already spending them elsewhere, such as on those combat changes that are causing the issue above.
The way they talked about all this suggested that combat system changes are prioritized more highly than helping people learn the system because they intentionally change it too often and too much for a tutorial to be worthwhile for devs or players.15 -
SaffronCitrusflower✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭U35 radically increased the skill gap. Period. The update did the exact opposite of what ZOS claims the goal was for the update.34 -
ExoY✭✭✭It should also be considered who actually reads patch notes (and understands enough of the game to grasp some of the impacts and how to adapt)
I am just guessing here, but I feel it is reasonable to assume, that many casual player dont read them at all.
Incase of U35 they just logged in after the patch and might have noticed content got harder.
They, at the most, will then watch some youtube tutorial guides for their builds, if there exist any.
I feel when doing a patch, especially one aimed to accessibility, Zos should include some sort of information ingame with comprehensive explanation on what changed.7 -
boi_anachronism_✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭To the point about a new tutorial, I would not expect anything.
In one of the livestreams that was done closer to the debut of U35, the devs said that there were two major impediments to an expanded or new tutorial:
1) The combat taught in the tutorial needs not to change. Their point here is that a new tutorial would need to remain applicable for years to be worthwhile. They implied that combat would continue to change in a way that would render new tutorial features inaccurate or inapplicable down the line. That doesn’t address the question of things like light attack weaving and animation cancelling, which have been around a very long time and don’t seem to be going anywhere. (Their second point might address this.) But their objection here strongly suggests major combat changes are going to keep happening regularly, so they can’t teach new players what they’re just going to change in the future.
2) They do not have the time or resources for a new tutorial because they are already spending them elsewhere, such as on those combat changes that are causing the issue above.
The way they talked about all this suggested that combat system changes are prioritized more highly than helping people learn the system because they intentionally change it too often and too much for a tutorial to be worthwhile for devs or players.
Ok so you don't even need an in game tutorial. Other mmos have literally created videos that are posted to their official site that go into great detail about things like more advanced mechanics and combat. No programming required. Additionally they could do something as simple as a readable link under the help menu in game with a list of buffs explain 5 piece sets, how to turn on your skill bar displays ect. Again, no programming just a basic text doc. Even that would be an incredibly helpful resource.2 -
Four_Fingers✭✭✭✭✭
✭If even ZOS realizes changes are made too often for a tutorial that right there should be a red flag to slow down.30 -
FeedbackOnly✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭SizanLopkniht wrote: »U35 radically increased the skill gap. Period. The update did the exact opposite of what ZOS claims the goal was for the update.
Yep and people don't understand they got weaker. It's frustrating playing with people who don't understand things have changed4 -
FeedbackOnly✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Four_Fingers wrote: »If even ZOS realizes changes are made too often for a tutorial that right there should be a red flag to slow down.
How about a video explaining changes put on launcher.1 -
FeedbackOnly✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭After a few minor changes to rotation, my damage is fine. I continue to play as I always have. But since I'm one of those "filthy casuals" I don't really count of course.
The problem isnt about pointing fingures at casual players but saying hey would got to change things now.It should also be considered who actually reads patch notes (and understands enough of the game to grasp some of the impacts and how to adapt)
I am just guessing here, but I feel it is reasonable to assume, that many casual player dont read them at all.
Incase of U35 they just logged in after the patch and might have noticed content got harder.
They, at the most, will then watch some youtube tutorial guides for their builds, if there exist any.
I feel when doing a patch, especially one aimed to accessibility, Zos should include some sort of information ingame with comprehensive explanation on what changed.
Yes it's about awareness. They should let people know things are very much different now.Edited by FeedbackOnly on September 15, 2022 8:03PM1 -
Chiaroscuro✭✭✭To the point about a new tutorial, I would not expect anything.
In one of the livestreams that was done closer to the debut of U35, the devs said that there were two major impediments to an expanded or new tutorial:
1) The combat taught in the tutorial needs not to change. Their point here is that a new tutorial would need to remain applicable for years to be worthwhile. They implied that combat would continue to change in a way that would render new tutorial features inaccurate or inapplicable down the line. That doesn’t address the question of things like light attack weaving and animation cancelling, which have been around a very long time and don’t seem to be going anywhere. (Their second point might address this.) But their objection here strongly suggests major combat changes are going to keep happening regularly, so they can’t teach new players what they’re just going to change in the future.
2) They do not have the time or resources for a new tutorial because they are already spending them elsewhere, such as on those combat changes that are causing the issue above.
The way they talked about all this suggested that combat system changes are prioritized more highly than helping people learn the system because they intentionally change it too often and too much for a tutorial to be worthwhile for devs or players.
ಠಿ_ಠಿ
Wow. This is illuminating.
Not in a good way, but it sure makes a lot clear.9 -
BahometZ✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Yeah, a tutorial is a non-starter in every way.
Anyone who pays close attention to the game will adapt, others might be able to learn from them, and the rest can just spend their crowns on cosmetics and dance in Riften I guess.Pact Magplar - Max CP (NA XB)1 -
FeedbackOnly✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Yeah, a tutorial is a non-starter in every way.
Anyone who pays close attention to the game will adapt, others might be able to learn from them, and the rest can just spend their crowns on cosmetics and dance in Riften I guess.
Thing is youh can be a group who doesn't pay attention. Like not everyone knows to read the patch notes0 -
Ishtarknows✭✭✭✭✭
✭Having spent a fair bit of time in Icereach recently filling out my stickerbook it's become slap-in-the-face obvious that the tutorial needs more than what it shows now.
In every run at least one of the DDs had no clue what red lines emanating from an enemy meant, and they happily stood next to and heavy attacked said enemy, ignorant to the fact that:
a) the health bar was gold and the enemy took no damage and
b) the reason they were dying was because they had not interrupted the enemy they were looking at (doing the "interrupt me" animation).
The current tutorial shows light and heavy attacking, dodging and blocking. Nothing about bashing to interrupt or more importantly, using skills alongside said LA or HA. It's not fit for purpose.
The skill gap is far bigger than merely DPS. It's a knowledge gap.13 -
IZZEFlameLash✭✭✭✭✭
✭FeedbackOnly wrote: »There's people who have adjusted to update 35 and there's those very far behind and they don't even know why.
My complaint is we should adjust people better to patches. People did dungeons they got carried in and don't understand what's going on now.
Lastly I don't see how this was supposed to increase accessibility yet. It honestly makes me not want to play with drastically weaker players because not only do they not know the mechics anymore, but they are using wrong skills.
An afterthought long ago heavy attack and light attacks were buffed to help make dungeon better for the clueless. This worked and now we feel the problem again that @ZOS_Wrobel had fixed.
Please make a better tutorial for the game. This patch has not helped improve accessibility.
Exactly how I feel about weaker players this patch. The amount of players that are oblivious to interrupt, other general game/boss mechanics are now more detrimental to mid-tier players' gameplay experience like myself. There's only so much I can do to cover those players with my in-content/imperfect rotation 45-60k dps.
It gets worse when there are fake tanks/healers, things get a lot worse than before because they obviously aren't what roles they assigned themselves, and they don't output good dps as well. So, naturally, I get boss aggro on me 90% of the times and when I die because I am not a tank (or from group members NOT interrupting interruptable one shot mechanics), group dies with me. Guess what happens to my willingness to play? It drops significantly. Wish there were better tutorials for lower end players instead of dropping dps globally to harm accessibility for players in low/mid tiers like me.Imperials, the one and true masters of all mortal races of Tamriel10 -
CP5✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Ishtarknows wrote: »Having spent a fair bit of time in Icereach recently filling out my stickerbook it's become slap-in-the-face obvious that the tutorial needs more than what it shows now.
In every run at least one of the DDs had no clue what red lines emanating from an enemy meant, and they happily stood next to and heavy attacked said enemy, ignorant to the fact that:
a) the health bar was gold and the enemy took no damage and
b) the reason they were dying was because they had not interrupted the enemy they were looking at (doing the "interrupt me" animation).
The current tutorial shows light and heavy attacking, dodging and blocking. Nothing about bashing to interrupt or more importantly, using skills alongside said LA or HA. It's not fit for purpose.
The skill gap is far bigger than merely DPS. It's a knowledge gap.
The Elsweyr tutorial did teach those things, so I would be surprised if the current one doesn't, but the issue is after the game freezes time and covers the screen in the blue overlay asking players to input the keys needed to do those things, that's it. There isn't any part in the tutorial where those tools are needed, and after it, you can forget they're a thing for hundreds of hours until happening into a fight where they're required. New players will forget things if they never have to use them.5 -
Varana✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭That's another thing about the tutorial:
It needs to have specific parts accessible at any time.
Teaching players about interrupting at the start of the game is fine. But after that, they will really need that knowledge only much later in the game. (Sure, interrupting is helpful all the time. But you can manage overland and quest stuff without it most of the time.) Edit: I'm also pretty sure the current tutorial teaches you about red and yellow lines.
That is even more pronounced with advanced stuff like weaving. You don't need to know about weaving until you start doing more advanced group content. (It's a good idea to tell players how it works early on. But they can get by without it.) And it's precisely at that point that having a tutorial explaining the concept would be helpful.
But that doesn't work with their current tutorial style of infodumping everything, once, and then cutting off the tutorial area from the game.
So for an actually useful tutorial, they would need to revamp the whole idea of how to do tutorials, completely. A better way of doing it is the ***... eh, Volendrung tutorial in Cyrodiil. You can do that tutorial as often as you like, at any time, and it teaches you a very specific skill set that you might want to revisit now and then. (Because the chance of you actually getting the *** is kinda low.)Edited by Varana on September 17, 2022 11:36AM3 -
AcadianPaladin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Depending on character, my dps went from 25k down to about 16k. Note that I parse on actual but easy world bosses, not target dummies. Since I consider myself closer to the floor than the ceiling, I'd agree that U35 lowered the floor. I wouldn't know anything about the ceiling.
If the objective was to raise the floor, it has failed.PC NA(no Steam), PvE, mostly solo20 -
FeedbackOnly✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭AcadianPaladin wrote: »Depending on character, my dps went from 25k down to about 16k. Note that I parse on actual but easy world bosses, not target dummies. Since I consider myself closer to the floor than the ceiling, I'd agree that U35 lowered the floor. I wouldn't know anything about the ceiling.
If the objective was to raise the floor, it has failed.
That's just unfortunate because content was designed around 25k DPS too2 -
FeedbackOnly✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭That's another thing about the tutorial:
It needs to have specific parts accessible at any time.
Teaching players about interrupting at the start of the game is fine. But after that, they will really need that knowledge only much later in the game. (Sure, interrupting is helpful all the time. But you can manage overland and quest stuff without it most of the time.) Edit: I'm also pretty sure the current tutorial teaches you about red and yellow lines.
That is even more pronounced with advanced stuff like weaving. You don't need to know about weaving until you start doing more advanced group content. (It's a good idea to tell players how it works early on. But they can get by without it.) And it's precisely at that point that having a tutorial explaining the concept would be helpful.
But that doesn't work with their current tutorial style of infodumping everything, once, and then cutting off the tutorial area from the game.
So for an actually useful tutorial, they would need to revamp the whole idea of how to do tutorials, completely. A better way of doing it is the ***... eh, Volendrung tutorial in Cyrodiil. You can do that tutorial as often as you like, at any time, and it teaches you a very specific skill set that you might want to revisit now and then. (Because the chance of you actually getting the *** is kinda low.)
Okay maybe a dungeon tutorial0 -
guarstompemoji✭✭✭✭To the point about a new tutorial, I would not expect anything.
In one of the livestreams that was done closer to the debut of U35, the devs said that there were two major impediments to an expanded or new tutorial:
1) The combat taught in the tutorial needs not to change. Their point here is that a new tutorial would need to remain applicable for years to be worthwhile. They implied that combat would continue to change in a way that would render new tutorial features inaccurate or inapplicable down the line. That doesn’t address the question of things like light attack weaving and animation cancelling, which have been around a very long time and don’t seem to be going anywhere. (Their second point might address this.) But their objection here strongly suggests major combat changes are going to keep happening regularly, so they can’t teach new players what they’re just going to change in the future.
2) They do not have the time or resources for a new tutorial because they are already spending them elsewhere, such as on those combat changes that are causing the issue above.
The way they talked about all this suggested that combat system changes are prioritized more highly than helping people learn the system because they intentionally change it too often and too much for a tutorial to be worthwhile for devs or players.
This was the "caught in the woods for the trees" thinking that was the financial downfall of a few companies, and impactful towards others.
I don't even recall his name, now, but there was a guy who discovered how to visually represent technical manuals for...it was IBM? Compaq? back in the day, and it was so successful and turned their business around that they paid him to fly to places such as, say, Australia to teach what he was doing.1 -
guarstompemoji✭✭✭✭FeedbackOnly wrote: »[
There would be more high end players if they helped adjust people better. Like they didn't think through on how common players are supposed to adapt fo litterally revamped gameplay. It's not the same game.
This is something that's bothered me. For example, in discords I'm in, I can see:
o Multiple YT and Twitch videos featuring how-tos and tutorials
o "Trials 101" and "Trials Training" channels
o Project Vitality
o ...and so on.
On the other hand, I also see:
o The lack of a tutorial inside the game
And:
o The number of endgame players is small, and much smaller even now after the last patch; depending on them to continue to reinvent tutorials and spend all of their time in outreach, is not sustainable. It's also:
o A means of exploiting free labor by ZoS, by their refusal to devote resources to this crucial element of the game, and instead saying, "Oh, our players will do it for us."
And:
o The lack of an ingame tutorial that teaches longstanding elements such as "recasting skills when they time out" or "light attack weaving is an advanced technique that helps in harder aspects of the game" makes these elements feel illegitimate. This means that...
o One group of players is encouraged to see another group's playstyle as illegitimate
o This does nothing to help reconcile the different groups; it only increases a social gap
tl;dr There are resources. ZoS needs to pick up its tutorial and teach-through-UI game. Elements need addressed to encourage a better environment.9
