From PGE 1:
The Reachmen are a mongrel breed, even for Bretons. Descended originally from one of the earliest Atmoran tribes to settle Tamriel, their lineage now partakes of nearly every race imaginable.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Pocket_Guide_to_the_Empire,_1st_Edition/High_Rock

KingArthasMenethil wrote: »

Sjestenka wrote: »

From PGE 1:
The Reachmen are a mongrel breed, even for Bretons. Descended originally from one of the earliest Atmoran tribes to settle Tamriel, their lineage now partakes of nearly every race imaginable.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Pocket_Guide_to_the_Empire,_1st_Edition/High_Rock

PGE1 is propaganda and is pretty much retconned thus should not be listened to. And you can see the Propaganda from the "out of Atmora" stuff in that. ESO who put a focus on them puts them as entirely Nedes in the Reach who were there before the Atmorans and Dwemer were in the area.

Better lore source than picture of two in-game models anyway. Don't mind me though, im only putting links and stuff, not arguing

KingArthasMenethil wrote: »

Sjestenka wrote: »

KingArthasMenethil wrote: »

Sjestenka wrote: »

From PGE 1:
The Reachmen are a mongrel breed, even for Bretons. Descended originally from one of the earliest Atmoran tribes to settle Tamriel, their lineage now partakes of nearly every race imaginable.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Pocket_Guide_to_the_Empire,_1st_Edition/High_Rock

PGE1 is propaganda and is pretty much retconned thus should not be listened to. And you can see the Propaganda from the "out of Atmora" stuff in that. ESO who put a focus on them puts them as entirely Nedes in the Reach who were there before the Atmorans and Dwemer were in the area.

Better lore source than picture of two in-game models anyway. Don't mind me though, im only putting links and stuff, not arguing

PGE1 isn't a lore source anymore. It's outright wrong as you can see from any TES game.

Bretons and Reachmen do not see each other as the same race and other races considering Bretons and Reachmen separate

https://www.imperial-library.info/content/elder-scrolls-online-lore-answers

don't consider themselves Bretons – and the Bretons agree

https://esoitem.uesp.net/itemLink.php?&itemid=71452&level=1&quality=3

Display board mounted with 28 preserved ears from Breton, Redguard, and Reachman warriors; formerly hung on the wall.

Some Reachmen (unknown on the true amount given how vague TES is) came from the Keptu of Hammerfell. Looks like the Redguards missed a spot.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Meet_the_Character_-_Domihaus_the_Bloody-Horned

Reachmen in the Reach before the Dwemer and Atmorans are which is well before any document cases of Bretons

Long before Elves or Nords conquered the region of Karth, tribes of humans inhabited the caves of the Druadach Mountains. It was in these dark places they learned of their new purpose, and it was there they sang songs of fading dreams.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Lost_Valley_Redoubt

All in all they're from a different Nedic group from the Bretons the same way the "Imperials" are. It's most certainly not a culture group as this isn't Highland Bretons, Colovians or Nibenese as they'd never make it ingame just like those three I mentioned.

Again, not the same people, still the same race. Bretons and Reachmen share the same Nedic roots, the very links you posted support that. The Druids in High Isle describe that the early Nedic ancestors of the Bretons worshipped the constellations (like the Keptu) and did so long before the Nords and Elves arrived. So if the Keptu are the origin of both the Bretons and the Reachmen... sounds to me like they are actually very closely related. And we've known that before High Isle as well, only that it has now been made more explicit. The Wyrd covens blend over to the Reachmen witch covens seamlessly, further highlighting that there isn't actually an ethnic difference here but merely a cultural one.
If we look at "The 'Madmen' of the Reach" then you'll hear it from a Reachmen that they originally came from High Rock and that the Nords took their culture from them, which I do believe doesn't reference the 4th era state of affairs but rather the origin of the people from the Reach, which as we know hasn't been independent all the time and was switching hands between Elves, Nords, the Empire and the natives throughout history.
So as I understand it, the Keptu moved into the Reach and all of Highrock. The Elves came and took over, forcing their genes and religion on them, making hybrid Bretons through weird merethic era logic in the process, then lost the Reach to the Nords leaving behind their Breton slaves who then lost their culture yet again and adopted the belief that the world is out to get them and that it's all one big test from Lorkh. And thus the modern Reachmen are complete. Looking at it that way, it also makes perfect sense why those weak Bretons in their cities couldn't possibly be hardened Reachmen (except in those cases where they did embrace Reach traditions after being kidnapped), because they never went through what the Reachmen went through.
Here is a quote from ESO's very own "Improved Emperor's Guide to Tamriel/Northern Bangkorai and the Mountains
Orcs of the Daggerfall Covenant"

After the elimination of the Aldmeri overseers, and the first freedom of the Western Reach, the mark of the Elf was left coursing through the veins of the indigenous Reachmen.

Idk, sounds like proper Bretons to me, even if you might call it propaganda as well.
There are plenty of statements in the lore that clearly say they are the same race, even if you dismiss them, but I have seen none that actually say that they aren't. Those quotes you have brought forth do not contradict them being the same race either - the strongest piece of evidence being the argument that Bretons and Reachmen do not consider themselves kin but that is merely a cultural disagreement.
Also the full quote for that is this:

While the Reachmen are mainly of Breton stock, they have their own culture and society and don't consider themselves Bretons – and the Bretons agree.

https://www.imperial-library.info/content/elder-scrolls-online-lore-answers

The best quote supporting your case is actually this one from further down on that Q&A:

Though the Reachmen are related to the Bretons, they consider themselves a separate race (and so do the Bretons).

The keyword here being "consider" because both are in mutual agreement that it's better to not recognize being related to each other as the Bretons don't want to be associated with the Reachmen barbarity and the Reachmen do not want to be associated with the soft weaklings and their fancy things.

I assume you say playable race, right?
So, I would love to play as a Dremora! I was wandering in Fargrave today and wondered how cool it would be to customize your own "devil" lmao.

id like to see the dremora

joaotextor wrote: »

I assume you say playable race, right?
So, I would love to play as a Dremora! I was wandering in Fargrave today and wondered how cool it would be to customize your own "devil" lmao.

Fester82 wrote: »

id like to see the dremora

brylars wrote: »

I think the next playable race would logically be Dremora. We are seeing more of Oblivion lately and it seems like it would be a natural transition. With Sorcs taking a big hit in the recent update, a new and fresh "magic user" to essentially replace it would be nice.

Dremora makes no sense at all to be a playable race. Why would a Dremora stop the Planemeld and protect Nirn? Why would Dremora help people in need rather than simply snapping the neck of whatever weak and foolish mortal dared to approach them? The only thing player characters have in common with Dremora is that they both respawn after being killed.
The only reason the Dremora in Fargrave are not hostile towards you is the stricture keeping them from it. At least a Maormer would have a plausible reason to save Summerset because the larger circumstances of that story would negatively impact Pyandonea just the same.
We should never sacrifice plausibility and consistency for "wish fulfillment" because that would diminish the Elder Scrolls universe as a whole and make it no better than a poorly written fanfiction on some obscure website - sure some people are gonna love that, but it would kill the greater appeal pretty quickly.
There is already enough other media with friendly demons and devils, no need to force that into the Elder Scrolls.

They could start up with mixing races. We are all adults now and know how it works.

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Even though I think the argument can be made that all player characters need to be The Vestige, all player characters need to at least be able to do a significant portion of the available quests.

I strongly disagree with this, I think having non-heros helps balance out the world. One can't really have every character do most quests in the same reality, so I think this just depends on how each individual plays.

Ratzkifal wrote: »

A dremora has no stakes in the Planemeld. A dremora might have a daedric prince who has stakes in all of it, sure, but even then I do not think they would rescue the prophet, collect shards of Aetherius for skill points, rescue Lyris and generally agree to the plans of the mortal NPCs who always think they know better than you - a dremora. This is not an issue like a Telvanni not wanting to start the Mages Guild quest or helping to free slaves. These issues would pop up in almost every single quest in this game. At the end of the day a Maormer, an Ayleid and even a Dwemer are more believable to be following a questline to altruistically help others than a Dremora would be. Of course you could roleplay to be doing the bidding of some master that isn't your player character, but that would be like picking a Necromancer and saying you are playing the Blastbones race and then only pressing that one skill - if you like that, so be it, but you have to admit that it's at least a little weird. Especially if this would become a mainstream thing, since we are talking about making Dremora a playable race for anyone and everyone.

A Dremora certainly wouldn't care for the mortal NPCs but if playing along with the quest suits them, I'm sure that they'd go along with it, only to the extent that it benefits them of course. If stopping the Planemeld is their goal, then that could very well end up with them completing the main quest. I mean look at Blackwood's main quest haha. I have the same concerns on having many previously non-playable races appear due to becoming playable but... it's pretty easy to just ignore other player character races, especially with how many people wear helmets.

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Also, racial passives. How exactly does it make sense that a Dremora would be balanced? It makes sense that all the other playable races are balanced, but the average dremora is in a completely different league than the average mortal. Realistically their passives would have to be insane, but we all know that isn't going to fly. So what then? Nerf Dremora? At that point, why not just ask for cosmetics, since you are never going to get "the dremora experience". You can already pretend to be a Dremora if you'd be satisfied with that - just use the polymorph.

This idea is just not practical and would ultimately only cheapen Dremora as a race.

Well honestly I'm not sure how a Maormer would be balanced either, they're both pretty strong. However, racial passives tend to just be small boosts anyway to the point that it's an argument on if they matter at all. I wouldn't expect the racial passives to be as strong as befitting the race.
I do already have a Dremora, without the polymorph actually. I'd prefer a Maormer playable race over a Dremora one, I just wanted to weigh in my opinion on your argument.

KnightsMentor wrote: »

Maybe instead of new races, how about separating the existent races into different cultures?

They kind of do now. I know the divisions are kind of blurry. Are you talking about things like making the Colovian culture and Nibenay culture more distinct from each other in Cyrodiil? More distinction between tribal cultures?

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

This idea is just not practical and would ultimately only cheapen Dremora as a race.

"Cheapen the race?" What does that say about the other races? Then what is the point of looking at other races as possibly playable? From a RPG standpoint I can see that Dremora would seem out of place as "The Vestige." Lorewise a Dremora couldn't be a "vestige" and so that part of the hero's backstory couldn't be used. Then there is the Planemeld story. Why would a Dremora help mortals except to undermine Molag Bal in favor of another Daedric Prince?

One way around this could be to create a non-Alliance option. Storywise, the Dremora and other races under this banner would have a different starting point. They could still participate in all of the events of the current plotline but not as The Vestige. Maybe with this DLC, the players would have the option to try to help the Vestige or hinder them.

Soarora wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Even though I think the argument can be made that all player characters need to be The Vestige, all player characters need to at least be able to do a significant portion of the available quests.

I strongly disagree with this, I think having non-heros helps balance out the world. One can't really have every character do most quests in the same reality, so I think this just depends on how each individual plays.

I agree that letting us play as nonheroes would be great, but that is not how ESO is written. Player characters are and seeminlgy always will be goody two-shoes, as evidenced by the Telvanni quest in Vvardenfell and even the Dark Brotherhood DLC. Zenimax is too scared to give us genuinely evil choices and so playable Dremora make absolutely no sense at all. The worst thing we have been allowed to do to this day is helping a father trap the soul of his child in a flesh atronach but that's about it.
But my main point there was that we shouldn't be adding a race just because some quests exist that would make sense for them. Most quests have to make sense for them. That "one can't really have every character do most quests in the same reality" is a strawman you set up. It's not about two different characters doing the same quest in the same reality, never was. It's also not about how each individual plays either. I don't care how individual players roleplay. I can roleplay as Batman - that's my choice - but that doesn't mean Batman should become a playable class just to cater to me. If people want to play Batman, there are Batman games out there, no need for ESO to become one. No need to force that onto others.

Soarora wrote: »

A Dremora certainly wouldn't care for the mortal NPCs but if playing along with the quest suits them, I'm sure that they'd go along with it, only to the extent that it benefits them of course. If stopping the Planemeld is their goal, then that could very well end up with them completing the main quest. I mean look at Blackwood's main quest haha. I have the same concerns on having many previously non-playable races appear due to becoming playable but... it's pretty easy to just ignore other player character races, especially with how many people wear helmets.

I like to not look at Blackwood's main quest if at all possible. Makes complete sense for a Silencer of the Dark Brotherhood to rat out their comrades to an untrustworthy stranger for no particular reason, especially if that stranger clearly doesn't care about you in return.
But on the topic of ignoring other player character races, at what point could you not ignore it anymore? Could you ignore if the hypothetical Batman class had a bat symbol appearing whenever combat starts? There is a point where it becomes impossible to ignore. The fact that they are that nonsensical playable race is already enough to rub me the wrong way. Why? I can see the appeal of wanting to play a Dremora when everyone else has to play the normal races because then you are special, but when Dremora become a mundane every day thing, especially when there will be balance threads about Dremora being under/overpowered, I feel that will take something important away from the race.
So yeah, I don't want to have to ignore what other players are doing. This is an MMO. Mod your singleplayer games to play whatever you want but don't force other players to deal with that. There are things I can accept, like Bosmer not getting any offensive boni to using bows, because that would restrict their effectiveness in other builds and force Bosmer players to pick bows. That's where I put my personal preference behind what's best for everyone else, but I draw the line at Dremora because that cannot be in everyone's interest, as it would erode the integrity of ESO's writing (or what's left of it) and ultimately would serve no other purpose that cosmetics wouldn't already.

Soarora wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Also, racial passives. How exactly does it make sense that a Dremora would be balanced? It makes sense that all the other playable races are balanced, but the average dremora is in a completely different league than the average mortal. Realistically their passives would have to be insane, but we all know that isn't going to fly. So what then? Nerf Dremora? At that point, why not just ask for cosmetics, since you are never going to get "the dremora experience". You can already pretend to be a Dremora if you'd be satisfied with that - just use the polymorph.

This idea is just not practical and would ultimately only cheapen Dremora as a race.

Well honestly I'm not sure how a Maormer would be balanced either, they're both pretty strong. However, racial passives tend to just be small boosts anyway to the point that it's an argument on if they matter at all. I wouldn't expect the racial passives to be as strong as befitting the race.
I do already have a Dremora, without the polymorph actually. I'd prefer a Maormer playable race over a Dremora one, I just wanted to weigh in my opinion on your argument.

Maormer are by no means comparable to Dremora in terms of power. Maormer are just regular people. King Orgnum isn't, but we are talking about the average Maormer here and not the sorcerer king himself. But that leaves the question, why would you not expect the Dremora racial passives to be as strong as befitting the race? At that point you should really just pick any race you like and then put on that Dremora polymorph or whatever cosmetics you are using to make one - then close your eyes and there you have your nerfed Dremora racials.
Racial passives serve the point of letting players experience what it's like to be a member of that race in Tamriel. That's why Argonians had a minus to Personality (charisma) in previous games, which represented the discrimination they face and how it's hard for others to read their expressions. In ESO they mainly affect combat and drawbacks are completely absent but even then they have found ways to let the identity of each race shine through - for some more than for others. The Dremora identity is pretty much impossible to capture while staying balanced, because power is their identity.
This would be my best attempt at capturing the imposing strength of the Dremora and staying true to their lore, but needless to say this is ridiculously overpowered and exactly what I would, or rather, what we should expect of them.

• Flavor Passive: You do not consume soul gems upon reviving. Crafting and refining armor and weapons consumes 10% less materials. You count as a daedra for the purpose of fighter's guild skills and prismatic damage.
• Daedric Might - Increase weapon and spell damage by 500
• Otherworldly Constitution - Increase max health, max stamina and max magicka by 4000.
• Deadlands-hardened - Increases disease, fire, shock and poison resistance by 2315.

Anything less would be a disappointment and so I'd rather not have them be playable at all, not even mentioning the mess this race creates for the writing of the game. It's just not worth it when the alternative is adding noncontroversial cosmetics that don't need any justification whatsoever.

KnightsMentor wrote: »

Maybe instead of new races, how about separating the existent races into different cultures?

Culture just needs to be its own thing separate from race really at the very least for roleplaying/definging a race better then trying to put a race that represents all their cultures like Dunmer with Great House Dunmer and Ashlanders, Bretons and Highland Bretons, Imperials with the mythical "Colovians" and "Nibenese", Reachmen and etc

@brylars

Yes. We have Ashlanders, Reachmen and so on. Just to mix it up a bit, make roleplaying a bit more rewarding. Could also let them add some variety to the racial passives. Like I want a more stamina focused Breton, so maybe Reachman could add some stamina based passives.

Sjestenka wrote: »

From PGE 1:
The Reachmen are a mongrel breed, even for Bretons. Descended originally from one of the earliest Atmoran tribes to settle Tamriel, their lineage now partakes of nearly every race imaginable.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Pocket_Guide_to_the_Empire,_1st_Edition/High_Rock

I wish they hadnt effectively retconned PGE1 from the lore. Sure it was propaganda, but it was still intended to be at least a semi-true interpretation of the world. The fact that even imperials dont seem to know anything about their own province will always be especially hilarious.

Back on topic: Reachmen WERE originally considered bretons, but this was back when bretons included tons of cultural and ethnic variety. Now bretons are pretty much homogenous, with druids and reachmen being weird outliers. I'm not sure what Reachmen are meant to be in the current lore. It definitely doesn't seem like they're considered bretons in the current lore, but I may be wrong.

Maormer.