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THEORY CRAFTING IS DEAD (PvP).. gonna lose a lot more

Crom_CCCXVI
Crom_CCCXVI
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We could look at how group comp used to be so much more intricate, or how different sets had their own identities and things like that, how CP used to allow for endless experimenting
or why people play MMO'?. Not everyone is about being the best at combat, some of us like the puzzle of trying to counter a META, not just copying it, and I had other friends (now mostly gone) who weren't good, but because classes were so unique they could find a role like a melee healer who could handle it up front vs a ranged healer.. they used to be different..

but to make a point-
Lets just look at this
At one point I had 8 different VIABLE Mag DK's for PvP at the same time.... now I don't see a reason to play any of them.

1. I had a CC TANK. This was an important build back when group comp mattered. They could hold a breech, they could stop a charging ball group, they were viable in the role of like a Battlefield Controller. This was back when the only CC immunity came from potions. Now CC's like Talons are worthless. A group will run right passed you and players can go minutes without being stunned or even immobilized. -- BUILD DEAD. CC's DON'T WORK

2. I had an AOE DAMAGE BUILD This build could hold down an area by stacking things like Cinder Storm, Wall of Elements, on top of your Standard, with maybe Grothdarr, sets like BSW or Silks of the Sun, Succession.. or some other similar sets. If done well you could radiate 6,7k dmg per tic for anyone standing near you even if you had no single target burst. Now most DOTS's are so weak they come out to maybe 500dmg a tic if you can throw together high enough Pen and Crit.... but regardless the average player has 30k+ health and doing .500dmg a tic is worthless (and even sets that only do one thing are meaningless. What good is +300 fire damage when your base damage is 6k? it's meaningless....)
BUILD DEAD-- DAMAGE NERFED SETS AND DOTS

3. I had a SINGLE TARGET DOT BUILD. If you could 3 or 4 Dots on someone like, (I liked Ice Furnace) so Frost Reach, Structured Entropy, Soul Assault had a dot, Oblivion Set, Burning Embers.. and a Lightning Staff but if you could stack a few single target Dots on someone this was great for a run away troll type player. But now most Dots are worthless.. doing 15k damage over 10 secs comes out to about 400dmg a tic vs a guy with 35K health, lol. What is even the purpose?
BUILD DEAD-- DOT DAMAGE NERFED TO WORTHLESSNESS

4. I had a WHIP SPAM OFF BALANCE BUILD. This cool build had to rely on a Charged Lightning Staff at the time to get the Power Lash. However, this was back when you stun someone. Lightning Staff had a Stun on "reach" and Stonefist or Fossilize also had Stuns... this was cool because you could be ultra aggressive and just keep pushing getting the heal from Stonefist until you got the stun. Once the guy was stunned you could land 3 or so Whips and hopefully get a kill. Though they brought back the ability to spam whips, you can't stun anyone.. the skill has always been slow, so they can heal through or run away.
BUILD DEAD- STUNS REMOVED FROM SKILLS. TOO HIGH OF HEALTH

5. I had a MAG DK LIGHT ATTACK WEREWOLF. Before you laugh, I have some videos and he had a heck of a heal. This was back when Werewolf Groups were the rage. With the light attack sets, I could pretty much just throw light attacks at sometimes 7,8,9k dmg each. There was way more effective Werewolf builds for sure, and this may have been a bit lazy. Nonetheless it was viable
BUILD DEAD- Werewolf Mechanics Changed. NOTE: I have no problem with this, it was kind of silly.

6. I had a SORC HUNTER. Sorcs have always been good, but DK's with their wings used to be the counter. Just like Templars have always done well against DK's. By Combining wings with things like Talons, or my stuns from Fossilize, Stonefist etc.. you could often immobilize a Sorc long enough for someone else to finish them. and btw. More than once I killed myself with L.Overload or something fighting a DK. Now wings don't reflect, CC's don't work, there are no stuns and Sorcs can always get away.
BUILD DEAD- WINGS GONE, CC'S INEFFECTIVE.

7. I had a DRAGON LEAP VD EXECUTION BUILD.. I guess you could still run this, but healths are so much higher now. We have added about 10k to health so best of luck

8. I had a HEAVY ATTACK STAFF BUILD. This was a long time favorite. A heavy Attack from a DK was slow, clunky, it took time to crank it up, and it would miss.. but if you hit it could do some great damage, especially with an Inferno. I would go with Inferno on one side and lightning on the other. Elegant with it's +20% was the early set, then Knight Slayers was good, at one point Sheild Breaker was cool, Maelstrom Staff (I farmed hours for btw) Spider Cult, even Torugs, Hearland Conquerer and recently Thunder Caller as well as Saergents, Undaunted Infiltrator/Unweaver...etc. I was never good at cancellation and quick combo's so this would be my answer..--- Now all those sets are stupid and Molten Armaments has no value. I don't want Recovery, I don't want to hit a guy with 19 light attacks and get an extra 200dmg or some other nonsense that never works in PvP...
BUILD DEAD-- MOLTEN ARMAMENTS GONE.ALL SETS WORTHLESS NOW

AGAIN, ALL THESE EXISTED AT THE SAME TIME

So now where are we?
With the exception of Corrosive Armor, the only thing DK's are good for is running around in mobs, doing 4k dmg a skill and not dying as easily. All played close to the same way. -- I'll play a Sorc for Damage now, the only reason I'd been hanging onto a DK was Molten Armaments... and now I'm just looking at 68 pieces of Worthless Gold Gear.

Everyone thinks they want perfect balance.. until its too late and you just end up with boring mediocrity. Read thru my old posts over the past 5 years, I was right.
  • rbfrgsp
    rbfrgsp
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    DKs have been overtuned for about 20 of the last 24 months in cyro.

    Every other class has had to sit through months of irrelevance within that time. I'd attribute this to simply being your turn, but DKs are still performing well this patch so I don't know what to say.
  • SPR_of_HA_community
    SPR_of_HA_community
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    If you play not like main stream - main stream nerf your builds, even if it was in game from game start or more than 6+ years.

    Checked on HA builds. If main stream can not win because not enough skill -> nerf better players builds.
    (We already take not the best old sets -> look what it becomes now)

    The main idea looks like:
    If nerf other players builds they get tired to change builds one day and walk away.

    Nothing really special. Standart casual tacticks. And TESO is casual game - it is not cybersport - devs say it themselves don't they ?

    If game and its balance change for specific popular players, that get stream drops on their channel to make more players look them - it looks some how strange for you ? )

    If it would not change or has some reasonable balance on changes - ok.

    Just look on example of 2 sets:
    1 set remove buffs, another remove debuffs and heal. Both sets were really OP, that one that removes debuffs and heal looks like even more OP. One was nerfed, other was not ! Just based on some players wishes. You will not really get balance - so you will have option take main stream or do not play.
    If you play own build - you will be one of the best in main stream, but will you get any pleasure to play it ?)

    But I think it was clearly seen how popular blogers opinion affects the game.

    The same time - just ordinary players can not get answer about a bug for more than a month:

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/616320/zos-u35-question-about-ha-builds-problems

    We are ignored like we do not exist.

    They just "do not see us".

    I hope you understand everything about balance here now ;)
    Edited by SPR_of_HA_community on September 2, 2022 8:57AM
  • mandricus
    mandricus
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    Playing this game since 2015. I've 12 fully leveled characters (a Mag and a Stam version on every class), all maxed out, all with gold gear. I tried them all, had a ton fun with all. Every class and spec used to be unique and fun, had its pro and its con, you could build them in many different ways and be deadly effective with every class and every spec. Now, for starters, I'm not sure there is still a real distinction between, e.g. a Mag Sorc and a Stam Sorc. With the hybridization changes It's just..... Sorc. We had 12 specs, now we have just 6 classes. Moreover, patch after patch, nerf after nerf, every class had to lose the things that made them unique, distinctive and, most importantly, fun to play. DK wing's ability to reflect projectiles? Gone. Nightblade Insta-incap with no cast time? Gone. Sorc's overload 3rd skill bar? Gone. The list could goes on for every class. Nowadays, even Templar's jabs are, in fact, gone (what a shame)! I had, not so long ago, 12 very unique, fun and different characters. Now, sadly, they all look and feel more or less the same.
    Edited by mandricus on September 2, 2022 8:49AM
  • ToRelax
    ToRelax
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    Read thru my old posts over the past 5 years, I was right.

    I did. [snip] Looks like this time you're sad about heavy attacks buff stacking being removed.

    [edited for baiting]
    Edited by ZOS_Icy on September 2, 2022 12:31PM
    DAGON - ALTADOON - CHIM - GHARTOK
    The Covenant is broken. The Enemy has won...

    Elo'dryel - Sorc - AR 50 - Hopesfire - EP EU
  • SPR_of_HA_community
    SPR_of_HA_community
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    ToRelax wrote: »
    Read thru my old posts over the past 5 years, I was right.

    I did. [snip] Looks like this time you're sad about heavy attacks buff stacking being removed.

    Not only that - it now have only PVE sets and skills.

    And more important - new bug. The change that was not even exist in patch notes as example.

    We can not get any comments about this for already a long time.

    [edited to remove quote]
    Edited by ZOS_Icy on September 2, 2022 12:31PM
  • Aardappelboom
    Aardappelboom
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    4. I had a WHIP SPAM OFF BALANCE BUILD. This cool build had to rely on a Charged Lightning Staff at the time to get the Power Lash. However, this was back when you stun someone. Lightning Staff had a Stun on "reach" and Stonefist or Fossilize also had Stuns... this was cool because you could be ultra aggressive and just keep pushing getting the heal from Stonefist until you got the stun. Once the guy was stunned you could land 3 or so Whips and hopefully get a kill. Though they brought back the ability to spam whips, you can't stun anyone.. the skill has always been slow, so they can heal through or run away.
    BUILD DEAD- STUNS REMOVED FROM SKILLS. TOO HIGH OF HEALTH

    This still works you know, I use this on a DK, paired with dizzying swing, lots of damage and healing and a lot of fun to play, it's actually one of the best builds I've had in ages.

    On to the rest of your post: I think it's a bit exaggerated. I almost only play PVP and I love it, I can't get enough of it, it's great. Yes tanky players are a frustrating and people die less quick than they used to but there's still variety and skill. I for one don't mind the influx of an OP item, I love to find out what works against it (which is theory crafting tbh) and, I'll be honest, now and again it's fun to use an OP item and see what it's all about.

    The only thing I do agree on is DOTS, they are really weak in PVP but on the other hand, making them too strong will be frustrating as well. I would have loved to play a pure DOT build but it never really worked all that well, burst is definitely king in PVP, it would have been nice if a full DOT build would at least stand a chance.
  • kurbbie_s
    kurbbie_s
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    4. I had a WHIP SPAM OFF BALANCE BUILD. This cool build had to rely on a Charged Lightning Staff at the time to get the Power Lash. However, this was back when you stun someone. Lightning Staff had a Stun on "reach" and Stonefist or Fossilize also had Stuns... this was cool because you could be ultra aggressive and just keep pushing getting the heal from Stonefist until you got the stun. Once the guy was stunned you could land 3 or so Whips and hopefully get a kill. Though they brought back the ability to spam whips, you can't stun anyone.. the skill has always been slow, so they can heal through or run away.
    BUILD DEAD- STUNS REMOVED FROM SKILLS. TOO HIGH OF HEALTH

    This still works you know, I use this on a DK, paired with dizzying swing, lots of damage and healing and a lot of fun to play, it's actually one of the best builds I've had in ages.

    On to the rest of your post: I think it's a bit exaggerated. I almost only play PVP and I love it, I can't get enough of it, it's great. Yes tanky players are a frustrating and people die less quick than they used to but there's still variety and skill. I for one don't mind the influx of an OP item, I love to find out what works against it (which is theory crafting tbh) and, I'll be honest, now and again it's fun to use an OP item and see what it's all about.

    The only thing I do agree on is DOTS, they are really weak in PVP but on the other hand, making them too strong will be frustrating as well. I would have loved to play a pure DOT build but it never really worked all that well, burst is definitely king in PVP, it would have been nice if a full DOT build would at least stand a chance.

    of course one of the top class players says "im fine so nothings wrong" there is something wrong when only 1 class has every utility and better than any other class.
  • DigiAngel
    DigiAngel
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    Haha...I finally decon'd all my MagDK's pvp gear just last night. The ability to complete in any pvp was pitiful...so it will stick with it's initial role: pve rando dungeon tank.
  • martinhpb16_ESO
    martinhpb16_ESO
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    I've pretty much only played Stamblade and just one toon in pvp since launch!

    Guess that makes me a noob lol

    back in the day I had different builds on an addon I would flip between, depending on my opponent or mood.

    It was great fun. I had choices between skills e.g. NB fear was really good and fun.

    It was always rock, scissor, paper - interesting, surprising and fun

    I hardly even slot any NB skills now apart from cloak and a couple just for the passives.

    Now I try out a few builds with every meta change, most are useless, until I can fine tune the best and keep it 3 months until the next change.

    I'm relying more on streamers because theory crafting is a drudge now.

    The pool of OP build and class gets smaller with every combat sledge hammer.

    Homogenisation is not good for the soul
    At least the spelling is difficult for you.
    Hew's Bane*
  • CaperGuy
    CaperGuy
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    I play in no-cp and while No Proc was a fun difference for awhile, there aren’t a whole lot of off-meta build options that work and population is pretty decimated, it’s essentially just guild vs guild. I used to have a blast with trying strange set combinations before No-Proc and while I don’t particularly want to see Plaguebreak/Dark Convergence spam in Ravenwatch I’d accept it at this point if it would bring back my ability to make eclectic builds.
    Characters:

    Trivalaur - Breton Templar(Healer)
  • Aardappelboom
    Aardappelboom
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    kurbbie_s wrote: »

    4. I had a WHIP SPAM OFF BALANCE BUILD. This cool build had to rely on a Charged Lightning Staff at the time to get the Power Lash. However, this was back when you stun someone. Lightning Staff had a Stun on "reach" and Stonefist or Fossilize also had Stuns... this was cool because you could be ultra aggressive and just keep pushing getting the heal from Stonefist until you got the stun. Once the guy was stunned you could land 3 or so Whips and hopefully get a kill. Though they brought back the ability to spam whips, you can't stun anyone.. the skill has always been slow, so they can heal through or run away.
    BUILD DEAD- STUNS REMOVED FROM SKILLS. TOO HIGH OF HEALTH

    This still works you know, I use this on a DK, paired with dizzying swing, lots of damage and healing and a lot of fun to play, it's actually one of the best builds I've had in ages.

    On to the rest of your post: I think it's a bit exaggerated. I almost only play PVP and I love it, I can't get enough of it, it's great. Yes tanky players are a frustrating and people die less quick than they used to but there's still variety and skill. I for one don't mind the influx of an OP item, I love to find out what works against it (which is theory crafting tbh) and, I'll be honest, now and again it's fun to use an OP item and see what it's all about.

    The only thing I do agree on is DOTS, they are really weak in PVP but on the other hand, making them too strong will be frustrating as well. I would have loved to play a pure DOT build but it never really worked all that well, burst is definitely king in PVP, it would have been nice if a full DOT build would at least stand a chance.

    of course one of the top class players says "im fine so nothings wrong" there is something wrong when only 1 class has every utility and better than any other class.

    That's not what I said, the topic is about DK playstyles and one of the playstyles OP defined as useless is actually not useless, that's what I called out.
  • Rohamad_Ali
    Rohamad_Ali
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    Your sentiment is understood. Sometimes when devs move goal posts too far they create a worse game not better. Wishing for better news in the future. Hopefully with a update this bad the next can only be better?
  • SPR_of_HA_community
    SPR_of_HA_community
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    Your sentiment is understood. Sometimes when devs move goal posts too far they create a worse game not better. Wishing for better news in the future. Hopefully with a update this bad the next can only be better?

    With 3 years of same bad updates for HA players, we are not sure.

    May be it will be even worse 😂

    Why it have to be better ? )
    Edited by SPR_of_HA_community on September 5, 2022 8:16AM
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