Hybridization: time to reconsider?

mandricus · August 2022

Hybridization was supposed to give us a third additional choice for any class (Mag, Stam or Hybrid), not to replace the other two becoming the only viable option. Considering how things turned out, if I was Zos I would ask myself if it's not time to reconsider the change. It was supposed to open up new possibilities and to give players more choices, not to narrow them.

DivineKitty · August 2022

While we're on the topic of Hybridization, I REALLY don't like that Lava Whip now cost both Stamina AND magicka, at the same time. Like, what's the point of that? Who does it appeal to? Why not just give us a full stamina version of it? It's the best DK Spammable, and now it's Split between mag and stam, for no real reason that makes any kind of logical sense. Hybridization CAN work for DK, but i'm fairly confident that this isn't what anyone had in mind.

Zezin · August 2022

mandricus wrote: »

Hybridization was supposed to give us a third additional choice for any class (Mag, Stam or Hybrid), not to replace the other two becoming the only viable option. Considering how things turned out, if I was Zos I would ask myself if it's not time to reconsider the change. It was supposed to open up new possibilities and to give players more choices, not to narrow them.

I feel quite the contrary, never had I felt there were more options on how to build my character so many options! it's awesome, one of the few things I like about the last couple o updates.

Zezin · August 2022

now if you're asking about the meta top parsing stuff then yeah there's only one option but that has kind of always been the case with stamina builds usually having more damage due to not hitting crit cap as easily.

TheGreatBlackBear · August 2022

Skills and sets scaling off you're highest resource is a good change. Combining the weapon and spell buffs and physical and spell resist debuffs not so much. We have have entire jobs that offer nothing to the team because they have no unique debuff or buff and their damage contribution is subpar.

Jman100582 · August 2022

Main issue with hybridization is that classes weren’t properly balanced afterwards, and the fallout wasn’t properly addressed

I personally don’t mind “build variety” changing from meaning stam vs mag variants of a specific class to “class vs class” variety, but in order to do that the innate strengths and weaknesses of a class have to be evenly split between mag and stam. Take Templar, who is going to use power of the light over purifying light? Why does a major buff like brutality get stuck on a non-hybrid friendly skill like a stamina spammable instead of a universally accessible skill for the entire class? Why does the mag morph of assassins will just straight up have a higher tooltip than the stam morph? Why is the majority of in class healing across all classes locked behind magicka abilities, why aren’t there more stamina based healing abilities? Classes still have not been updated with hybridization in mind, and the latest patch continues to ignore that issue entirely as if it is resolved

Marto · August 2022

DivineKitty wrote: »

While we're on the topic of Hybridization, I REALLY don't like that Lava Whip now cost both Stamina AND magicka, at the same time. Like, what's the point of that? Who does it appeal to? Why not just give us a full stamina version of it? It's the best DK Spammable, and now it's Split between mag and stam, for no real reason that makes any kind of logical sense. Hybridization CAN work for DK, but i'm fairly confident that this isn't what anyone had in mind.

Lava Whip is, and always has been, a brawler skill.

A skill intended for players that want to rush into the thick of things, take a lot of damage, disable enemies, and deal high bursts of direct damage. This is a sort of playstyle that encourages you to have plenty of magicka, and plenty of stamina.

This is not the playstyle identity of StamDK. They are far more about stacking DoTs, being agile and maneuvering around the enemy, and using a combination of melee and ranged attacks. A slow burn of damage.

Furthermore, the choice between molten whip and flame lash is a pretty interesting one. It'd be a shame to lose either of these unique effects just so we can have a stamina whip.

Iriidius · August 2022

replace base ability lava whip with molten whip and molten whip morph with stamina whip, nobody uses lava whip except the ones who still level it, cant decide, dont have skill point or want to nerf themselve. Do we really need a bad version of a skill so the morphs are upgrades or to cost 1 skill point or why cant base ability be like a 3rd morph.

ForzaRammer · August 2022

Hybrid definitely lowed diversity, raid teams used to have dk for engulfing sorc for minor buff, sometimes you even get templar and warden dd for minors.

Now you see teams with 1 nb healer, no templar no sorc at all. What diversity?

And I don’t think hybrid lower skill gap at all, i actually think it causes a slight increase.

ToRelax · August 2022

ForzaRammer wrote: »

Hybrid definitely lowed diversity, raid teams used to have dk for engulfing sorc for minor buff, sometimes you even get templar and warden dd for minors.

Now you see teams with 1 nb healer, no templar no sorc at all. What diversity?

And I don’t think hybrid lower skill gap at all, i actually think it causes a slight increase.

I haven't seen anyone claim it decreased the skill gap, though I wasn't around when hybridization was implemented.

It absolutely increases the gap, as it gives better sustain to players able to dynamically adjust which resource they are using more of.

Tannus15 · August 2022

i really like the hybrid changes.

i hope they continue the process and finally fix enchants and pots and potentially find some way to address the "best" way to play being stacking 64 attributes into 1 stat.

it would be really nice if they did some sort of PvE balance instead of just balancing for PvP.

Ratzkifal · August 2022

A lot of the hybridization changes were good and made sense. Combining all the buffs on skills for example was a good change. A lot of item sets also make more sense to be hybrid - but not all. And hybridizing the weapon passives was also a great idea, even if it was a bit weird, but it did make playing a hybrid easier and allowed you to emulate a spellblade or battlemage with your build within the limitations of the current system.
But class skills never should have gotten hybrid scalings. Not all of them anyway. People like to point out that this opened up so many more build options, but these people don't see that they were being robbed of build options beforehand and just regain what they previously lost. Every time a skill got a new stamina morph, choice was being removed from the game. You'd always pick the skill that matches the colour of your build - blue or green. Not every skill should have a stamina morph. Not every skill should have a magicka morph either. Choices need to matter, because choices are what keep the game interesting after you played the same character for the 200th hour. Some skills should be exclusive to one spec or the other, because that increases replayability and introduces variety between the two specs of the same class. And hybrid builds should gain access to all options available to both while giving up other things in return as their opportunity cost for getting to cherry-pick skills and effect.

A lot of the hybridization changes should have been turned into slottable CPs or set effects so that anyone could decide to pick them or not. When two specs of the same class are using the exact same skills, sets and rotations and the only difference is which damage number of yours is higher despite that making zero difference gameplay-wise, then you don't have two specs - you only have one.

merpins · August 2022

DivineKitty wrote: »

While we're on the topic of Hybridization, I REALLY don't like that Lava Whip now cost both Stamina AND magicka, at the same time. Like, what's the point of that? Who does it appeal to? Why not just give us a full stamina version of it? It's the best DK Spammable, and now it's Split between mag and stam, for no real reason that makes any kind of logical sense. Hybridization CAN work for DK, but i'm fairly confident that this isn't what anyone had in mind.

It's interesting to say the least. But people have been asking for a full stam whip for years, and the fact that they release a full hybrid version felt like the devs pointing and laughing at us.

Jarl_Ironheart · August 2022

The hybridization change has allowed so many players including myself to use skills they would have never used before. Using more magicka skills when I'm playing stam and vice versa. The meta chasers will think differently because they only care about the most damage dealing skills. I'm glad they made this change. No need to change it.

SPR_of_HA_community · August 2022

We just need spell craft now, like never before.

maximusrex45 · August 2022

If you are going for meta you are always going to be shoehorned, Hybridization really doesn't change that, but it has opened up more choices for those not going meta.

I'd rather they try and improve balance between choices to make it matter even less. Same for weapon types.

ToRelax · August 2022

Jarl_Ironheart wrote: »

The hybridization change has allowed so many players including myself to use skills they would have never used before. Using more magicka skills when I'm playing stam and vice versa. The meta chasers will think differently because they only care about the most damage dealing skills. I'm glad they made this change. No need to change it.

It has allowed you to use a lot of skills which you could have used perfectly fine with less all encompassing hybridization of scaling. But it went further, to the point where players are being punished for not using them.

SPR_of_HA_community · August 2022

maximusrex45 wrote: »

If you are going for meta you are always going to be shoehorned, Hybridization really doesn't change that, but it has opened up more choices for those not going meta.

I'd rather they try and improve balance between choices to make it matter even less. Same for weapon types.

To be possible play with a lot of different sets, not only META, they need to upgrade old sets to better numbers compared to current meta sets and do not nerf old sets and skills. Than we will not only have META - but a lot of different good builds we can chouse from.

GloatingSwine · August 2022

Achieving hybridisation by scaling everything off your highest attack number increased the diversity of skills but at the same time reduced the diversity of weapons and sets because there are no longer different local optima for different resource builds.

That's going to be hard to undo, because there's always going to be a mathematical best.

CaptainVenom · August 2022

mandricus wrote: »

Hybridization was supposed to give us a third additional choice for any class (Mag, Stam or Hybrid)

It gives us a third option, actually. Pure builds still work, but the thing is: sometimes some skill morphs that change its resource/damage type are simply better than others, such as Blighted Blastbones over Stalking Blastbones. ZOS should address this issue by making every choice truly interesting and viable for different situations, but the problem isn't hydridization per se.

Ratzkifal · August 2022

GloatingSwine wrote: »

Achieving hybridisation by scaling everything off your highest attack number increased the diversity of skills but at the same time reduced the diversity of weapons and sets because there are no longer different local optima for different resource builds.

That's going to be hard to undo, because there's always going to be a mathematical best.

This. And what's worse is that sometimes you really aren't given a choice at all. Templars get minor sorcery as a passive whether they want it or not. So what does that mean? That means it's always going to be better on a stamina Templar to have more spell damage from glyphs etc. It's the same exact thing for magicka dragonknights. And if someone doesn't like that then too bad for them, you are never going to be as good as a hybrid player if you don't pick the only right glyphs. How is that not enforcing a playstyle?

SPR_of_HA_community · August 2022

DivineKitty wrote: »

While we're on the topic of Hybridization, I REALLY don't like that Lava Whip now cost both Stamina AND magicka, at the same time. Like, what's the point of that? Who does it appeal to? Why not just give us a full stamina version of it? It's the best DK Spammable, and now it's Split between mag and stam, for no real reason that makes any kind of logical sense. Hybridization CAN work for DK, but i'm fairly confident that this isn't what anyone had in mind.

Skills are limited. Why not to give players spell craft for class abilitys for start to have option to chose will it be mana/stamina/both type ability and what type of damage it will do.

This system can be upgrade in some thing really good in future.

Because may be some one would like - lightning whip

TheGreatBlackBear · August 2022

Ratzkifal wrote: »

GloatingSwine wrote: »

Achieving hybridisation by scaling everything off your highest attack number increased the diversity of skills but at the same time reduced the diversity of weapons and sets because there are no longer different local optima for different resource builds.

That's going to be hard to undo, because there's always going to be a mathematical best.

This. And what's worse is that sometimes you really aren't given a choice at all. Templars get minor sorcery as a passive whether they want it or not. So what does that mean? That means it's always going to be better on a stamina Templar to have more spell damage from glyphs etc. It's the same exact thing for magicka dragonknights. And if someone doesn't like that then too bad for them, you are never going to be as good as a hybrid player if you don't pick the only right glyphs. How is that not enforcing a playstyle?

That's not enforcing a playstyle. That's min maxing. If you choose to not seek peak efficiency from not stacking the appropriate damage type that's on you damage that's on you but it doesn't preclude you from picking and using whatever sets, weapon type and armour weight you want with whatever skills you want. The system has many shortcomings buy your example isn't one of them.

flizomica · August 2022

I really hope there are some finishing touches to hybridization with U36, as it feels like an unfinished mess right now. Personally, I absolutely hate that optimized DPS across different classes and specs are all using basically the same gear and an extremely similar suite of skills.

They should really merge weapon/spell damage and crit, as well as penetration. There are no gameplay differences when it comes to maxing one stat over the other, and it's not at all intuitive. I think the only thing I can do differently when it comes to builds is change my jewelry enchants to weapon or spell damage, depending on what my class specific buff (e.g. minor brutality) might be.

It's been suggested before, but making one "damage" jewelry glyph and one "penetration" glyph would be perfect, especially for players doing solo content or for those that can't count on full support armor debuffs.

I'm personally fine with still having resource pools split and scale as they are currently, as that does actually affect gameplay (e.g. stamina for dodge rolling, generally which damage types you use skill-wise).

I also would really like to see class-specific buffs and balance changes that would help a "pure" damage type build - instead of the weird hybrid-y stuff - perform competitively.

SPR_of_HA_community · August 2022

flizomica wrote: »

I really hope there are some finishing touches to hybridization with U36, as it feels like an unfinished mess right now. Personally, I absolutely hate that optimized DPS across different classes and specs are all using basically the same gear and an extremely similar suite of skills.

They should really merge weapon/spell damage and crit, as well as penetration. There are no gameplay differences when it comes to maxing one stat over the other, and it's not at all intuitive. I think the only thing I can do differently when it comes to builds is change my jewelry enchants to weapon or spell damage, depending on what my class specific buff (e.g. minor brutality) might be.

It's been suggested before, but making one "damage" jewelry glyph and one "penetration" glyph would be perfect, especially for players doing solo content or for those that can't count on full support armor debuffs.

I'm personally fine with still having resource pools split and scale as they are currently, as that does actually affect gameplay (e.g. stamina for dodge rolling, generally which damage types you use skill-wise).

I also would really like to see class-specific buffs and balance changes that would help a "pure" damage type build - instead of the weird hybrid-y stuff - perform competitively.

In current form we do not really need SPD or WPD it can be only one attack stat like Power.

Old sets are underperforming. If all sets would be upgraded to the level of current meta sets we can chouse different sets.

Now we see different picture - when not the best old not OP sets get nerfs and META sets are the same as before.

I do not say that we need nerf sets, I say that old sets have bad numbers and need some upgrade. Or at least stop nerfs dirrect and not dirrect nerfs to them. With not dirrect nerfs such sets need to get the same % better numbers as not direct nerfs made to them.

Ragnarok0130 · August 2022

SPR_of_HA_community wrote: »

We just need spell craft now, like never before.

Spellcrafting will never happen. This is an MMO and not single player game like Oblivion with goals of balance (even if the devs frequently fail in that goal) and spell crafting would be an unbalanceable nightmare for the dev team adding many more permutations of skill combinations to try to balance with the base game skills.

Your spell crafting would just end up at the same exact point that we are now with hybridization, there would simply be a new META and people would complain that they have to use "X" build to be competitive. Let's have the devs finish hybridization and fix Update 35 first and foremost.

SPR_of_HA_community · August 2022

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

SPR_of_HA_community wrote: »

We just need spell craft now, like never before.

Spellcrafting will never happen. This is an MMO and not single player game like Oblivion with goals of balance (even if the devs frequently fail in that goal) and spell crafting would be an unbalanceable nightmare for the dev team adding many more permutations of skill combinations to try to balance with the base game skills.

Your spell crafting would just end up at the same exact point that we are now with hybridization, there would simply be a new META and people would complain that they have to use "X" build to be competitive. Let's have the devs finish hybridization and fix Update 35 first and foremost.

For the start it can only change cost of skill from mana to stamina.

We see this updates that skill becomes mana+stamina, it was mana skill before.

I think, that people need to have option to adjust their builds like they want it to work. Not based on some META perspective.

It is a good way to fix current problems because, as example, skill Moltan Whip already become half mana/half stamina and is not considered as mana skill by some sets.

At least some problems can go away and we will have option to have good skills like it was before some update in resource as it was, not some mana skill suddenly becoming stamina or half mana/half stamina.

We already tired that game change each update. If they just can add options and let alone people who do not want any changes to their builds and skills we would be happy with that. I do not see a reason to players who already use not OP old sets and skills to adapt each update like we use some super meta new overperforming gear.

Ratzkifal · August 2022

TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

GloatingSwine wrote: »

Achieving hybridisation by scaling everything off your highest attack number increased the diversity of skills but at the same time reduced the diversity of weapons and sets because there are no longer different local optima for different resource builds.

That's going to be hard to undo, because there's always going to be a mathematical best.

This. And what's worse is that sometimes you really aren't given a choice at all. Templars get minor sorcery as a passive whether they want it or not. So what does that mean? That means it's always going to be better on a stamina Templar to have more spell damage from glyphs etc. It's the same exact thing for magicka dragonknights. And if someone doesn't like that then too bad for them, you are never going to be as good as a hybrid player if you don't pick the only right glyphs. How is that not enforcing a playstyle?

That's not enforcing a playstyle. That's min maxing. If you choose to not seek peak efficiency from not stacking the appropriate damage type that's on you damage that's on you but it doesn't preclude you from picking and using whatever sets, weapon type and armour weight you want with whatever skills you want. The system has many shortcomings buy your example isn't one of them.

That's not on me if ZOS keeps changing the available damage types. It is my expectation that when I want to build a magicka dragonknight that spell damage and max magicka are the stats I should invest in. You can call it unreasonable to have that kind of expectation but I think that is the fundamental problem with hybridization - it kills identity as it forces you to give up on these things if you want to keep up with others.
Think about it. Did stamina sorcerers who didn't abuse their broken set+skill interactions get spared from the nerfs in Update 35? No. The balancing will always be focusing on what is theoretically possible and that means you do not always have the luxury of picking the skills you want if you still want to be able to compete.
Minmaxing and roleplaying a build used to be very much in line with each other for the majority of this game's lifetime (that's called delivering on "skill fantasy"), but now that's not the case anymore. Now my stamina templar has to use spell damage glyphs or face being 10% weaker than everyone else in PvP.
You might not care but I am being forced to make a choice with no good outcomes. Either I am not having fun because my build will always be worse than my opponents' or I am not having fun because I do not get to play what I want to play even though it has always been possible before. And hybridization is to blame for the current state of things.
So either ZOS replaces magicka and stamina with "energy" and spell and weapon damage with just damage or hybridization needs to be undone and reimplemented as an optional build choice with appropriate opportunity costs attached to it to keep it fair.

SPR_of_HA_community · August 2022

Ratzkifal wrote: »

TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

GloatingSwine wrote: »

Achieving hybridisation by scaling everything off your highest attack number increased the diversity of skills but at the same time reduced the diversity of weapons and sets because there are no longer different local optima for different resource builds.

That's going to be hard to undo, because there's always going to be a mathematical best.

This. And what's worse is that sometimes you really aren't given a choice at all. Templars get minor sorcery as a passive whether they want it or not. So what does that mean? That means it's always going to be better on a stamina Templar to have more spell damage from glyphs etc. It's the same exact thing for magicka dragonknights. And if someone doesn't like that then too bad for them, you are never going to be as good as a hybrid player if you don't pick the only right glyphs. How is that not enforcing a playstyle?

That's not enforcing a playstyle. That's min maxing. If you choose to not seek peak efficiency from not stacking the appropriate damage type that's on you damage that's on you but it doesn't preclude you from picking and using whatever sets, weapon type and armour weight you want with whatever skills you want. The system has many shortcomings buy your example isn't one of them.

That's not on me if ZOS keeps changing the available damage types. It is my expectation that when I want to build a magicka dragonknight that spell damage and max magicka are the stats I should invest in. You can call it unreasonable to have that kind of expectation but I think that is the fundamental problem with hybridization - it kills identity as it forces you to give up on these things if you want to keep up with others.
Think about it. Did stamina sorcerers who didn't abuse their broken set+skill interactions get spared from the nerfs in Update 35? No. The balancing will always be focusing on what is theoretically possible and that means you do not always have the luxury of picking the skills you want if you still want to be able to compete.
Minmaxing and roleplaying a build used to be very much in line with each other for the majority of this game's lifetime (that's called delivering on "skill fantasy"), but now that's not the case anymore. Now my stamina templar has to use spell damage glyphs or face being 10% weaker than everyone else in PvP.
You might not care but I am being forced to make a choice with no good outcomes. Either I am not having fun because my build will always be worse than my opponents' or I am not having fun because I do not get to play what I want to play even though it has always been possible before. And hybridization is to blame for the current state of things.
So either ZOS replaces magicka and stamina with "energy" and spell and weapon damage with just damage or hybridization needs to be undone and reimplemented as an optional build choice with appropriate opportunity costs attached to it to keep it fair.

Agree. With hybridization we do not even need now 2 stats like WPD and SPD. It can be just Attack Power. So we will not have problems with class buffs. It is OK for me if 2 class have same buffs, it is ok if same glyphs can be made by 2 different recipe.

It is even better than some one, who do not play your class will make suggestion and you get some think you even do not need on your character. It is OK if it is like it is now even if some one else have the same.

If player can choose for all his skills - what kind of ability it would be: mana or stamina - we can get options to use any skills on any build. Not only be hybrids.

Stamina and Mana are 2 different resources, one is needed for breake free and dodge. Other is not, only with some special weapons. So such change can hit tanks. A lot of players like mana characters more, because they can have reserved stamina for dodge and block in different situations, but their mana skills are a little more in cost.
If ZOS will do one resource - we just all become stamina )

StaticWave · August 2022

Hybridization isn’t the problem. It’s the catalyst. The problem has always been there.

Objectively if we look at stam and mag classes and their respective abilities, we can see 2 universal issues:

1) Magicka classes tend to hand better utility and class heals
2) Stamina classes tend to have better variety of weapons

It’s always been the case that most magicka classes have good utility and healing skills, but are limited to a few weapon combinations such as Destro/Resto. In contrast, stamina classes can have several weapon combinations such as DW/SnB and 2h/DW, but lack utility and healing skills.

Hybridization amplified the existing issues because they allow stamina classes to tap into the magicka healing power and utility whilst preserving their weapon combination variety. Similarly, magicka classes can tap into that weapon combination variety while preserving their healing and utility strengths. This creates a situation where the BiS class is one that uses a hybridization of magicka heals and weapon combinations.

How do we solve this? It’s really simple. We give stamina classes more stamina based heals and utility abilities, while also giving magicka classes more weapons to use.

SPR_of_HA_community · August 2022

StaticWave wrote: »

Hybridization isn’t the problem. It’s the catalyst. The problem has always been there.

Objectively if we look at stam and mag classes and their respective abilities, we can see 2 universal issues:

1) Magicka classes tend to hand better utility and class heals
2) Stamina classes tend to have better variety of weapons

It’s always been the case that most magicka classes have good utility and healing skills, but are limited to a few weapon combinations such as Destro/Resto. In contrast, stamina classes can have several weapon combinations such as DW/SnB and 2h/DW, but lack utility and healing skills.

Hybridization amplified the existing issues because they allow stamina classes to tap into the magicka healing power and utility whilst preserving their weapon combination variety. Similarly, magicka classes can tap into that weapon combination variety while preserving their healing and utility strengths. This creates a situation where the BiS class is one that uses a hybridization of magicka heals and weapon combinations.

How do we solve this? It’s really simple. We give stamina classes more stamina based heals and utility abilities, while also giving magicka classes more weapons to use.

I do not understand the problem and how this will help. Can you pls tell it more detailed ?