Hybridization: time to reconsider?

StaticWave

SPR_of_HA_community wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Hybridization isn’t the problem. It’s the catalyst. The problem has always been there.

Objectively if we look at stam and mag classes and their respective abilities, we can see 2 universal issues:

1) Magicka classes tend to hand better utility and class heals
2) Stamina classes tend to have better variety of weapons

It’s always been the case that most magicka classes have good utility and healing skills, but are limited to a few weapon combinations such as Destro/Resto. In contrast, stamina classes can have several weapon combinations such as DW/SnB and 2h/DW, but lack utility and healing skills.

Hybridization amplified the existing issues because they allow stamina classes to tap into the magicka healing power and utility whilst preserving their weapon combination variety. Similarly, magicka classes can tap into that weapon combination variety while preserving their healing and utility strengths. This creates a situation where the BiS class is one that uses a hybridization of magicka heals and weapon combinations.

How do we solve this? It’s really simple. We give stamina classes more stamina based heals and utility abilities, while also giving magicka classes more weapons to use.

I do not understand the problem and how this will help. Can you pls tell it more detailed ?

Sure!

Hybridization was supposed to open up a new playstyle, but it ended up being the BiS playstyle for many, if not all classes. The problem isn’t that hybridization limited build variety. You can still go full stamina or full magicka if you wish. You just won’t be playing the BiS build for your class, and that’s fine too if your goal is to enjoy the game casually.

But for more competitive people who want the BiS build for their class, they have no choice but to go hybrid. Why? This is because ZOS had already placed limitations for pure magicka and stamina builds.

Take a look at a pure magicka build for example. You’ll see that most of them use Destro/Resto, with magicka heals and utility skills and either a magicka class spammable or Crushing Shock from the Destro skill line. They can’t really choose other weapons because well, those weapons are stamina based and they don’t really benefit magicka that much. In contrast, a pure stamina build can use several weapon combinations such as 2H/SnB, 2h/Dw, Dw/Bow, etc. However, they don’t really have good stamina heals other than Rally and Vigor, so you would quite often see most stamina classes using 2H for Rally.

Those are the build limitations that ZOS put in place for pure magicka and stamina specs. It allowed class uniqueness, but it also forced both specs to use a certain weapon combination if they want to be BiS. With hybridization, stamina specs now have access to ALL of the good magicka heals and utility skills, and magicka specs also have access to ALL of the good stamina based weapon combinations. In essence, stamina specs don’t have to rely on Rally and Vigor anymore because there are better options. Similarly, magicka specs don’t have to run Destro/Resto anymore because there are better weapon combinations. This allows both specs to cover their weaknesses and truly reach the BiS build for their class.

And that is where the problem truly lies. ZOS had designed their game in such a way that if you wanted good heals and utility skills, you had to use magicka skills and become a magicka spec. Similarly, if you wanted to use different weapons, you had to become a stamina spec. With hybridization, you don’t have to do that. You can just keep your build, throw in a few magicka heals or switch up a weapon combination and you’re pretty much set.

If ZOS wants to truly make hybridization a third option, they would have to give stamina specs an equal amount of good stamina based heals and utility skills, and an equal amount of NEW magicka based weapons. That way, people can choose to use either stamina or magicka based heals, both of which are equally good and dependent on a player’s built path.

I hope this clears up for you!

ToRelax

StaticWave wrote: »

Hybridization isn’t the problem. It’s the catalyst. The problem has always been there.

Objectively if we look at stam and mag classes and their respective abilities, we can see 2 universal issues:

1) Magicka classes tend to hand better utility and class heals
2) Stamina classes tend to have better variety of weapons

It’s always been the case that most magicka classes have good utility and healing skills, but are limited to a few weapon combinations such as Destro/Resto. In contrast, stamina classes can have several weapon combinations such as DW/SnB and 2h/DW, but lack utility and healing skills.

Hybridization amplified the existing issues because they allow stamina classes to tap into the magicka healing power and utility whilst preserving their weapon combination variety. Similarly, magicka classes can tap into that weapon combination variety while preserving their healing and utility strengths. This creates a situation where the BiS class is one that uses a hybridization of magicka heals and weapon combinations.

How do we solve this? It’s really simple. We give stamina classes more stamina based heals and utility abilities, while also giving magicka classes more weapons to use.

If your stats affect all abilities you can access in the same way, it becomes impossible to balance abilities for both pure mag/stam and hybrid builds. If Resolving Vigor is supposed to be sufficient as a primary self heal, then hybrids stacking it with Rapid Regeneration heal too much too easily. If Deadric Curse is supposed to give a sufficient amount of delayed burst, then hybrids combining it with Crystal Weapon get way too much. Both of these combinations just had one of their skills nerfed to the point they're no longer sufficient for a primary heal or delayed damage. That is an effect of hybridization having overshot the mark, not merely demonstrating a problem which was already present.

StaticWave

ToRelax wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Hybridization isn’t the problem. It’s the catalyst. The problem has always been there.

Objectively if we look at stam and mag classes and their respective abilities, we can see 2 universal issues:

1) Magicka classes tend to hand better utility and class heals
2) Stamina classes tend to have better variety of weapons

It’s always been the case that most magicka classes have good utility and healing skills, but are limited to a few weapon combinations such as Destro/Resto. In contrast, stamina classes can have several weapon combinations such as DW/SnB and 2h/DW, but lack utility and healing skills.

Hybridization amplified the existing issues because they allow stamina classes to tap into the magicka healing power and utility whilst preserving their weapon combination variety. Similarly, magicka classes can tap into that weapon combination variety while preserving their healing and utility strengths. This creates a situation where the BiS class is one that uses a hybridization of magicka heals and weapon combinations.

How do we solve this? It’s really simple. We give stamina classes more stamina based heals and utility abilities, while also giving magicka classes more weapons to use.

If your stats affect all abilities you can access in the same way, it becomes impossible to balance abilities for both pure mag/stam and hybrid builds. If Resolving Vigor is supposed to be sufficient as a primary self heal, then hybrids stacking it with Rapid Regeneration heal too much too easily. If Deadric Curse is supposed to give a sufficient amount of delayed burst, then hybrids combining it with Crystal Weapon get way too much. Both of these combinations just had one of their skills nerfed to the point they're no longer sufficient for a primary heal or delayed damage. That is an effect of hybridization having overshot the mark, not merely demonstrating a problem which was already present.

It’s a combination of both. There simply aren’t enough good stamina heals compared to magicka heals. Although I have to say there’s such a disparity between stam and mag when it comes to efficiency. The best stamina builds are ones that uses magicka for utility/heals, and stamina for damage, and the best magicka builds are ones that only use stamina for core combat abilities.

Technically speaking, even pure stamina builds prior to hybridization weren’t truly pure stamina for that exact reason. They were already hybrid, but not to the same degree compared to post hybridization.

I_killed_Vivec

Marto wrote: »

DivineKitty wrote: »

While we're on the topic of Hybridization, I REALLY don't like that Lava Whip now cost both Stamina AND magicka, at the same time. Like, what's the point of that? Who does it appeal to? Why not just give us a full stamina version of it? It's the best DK Spammable, and now it's Split between mag and stam, for no real reason that makes any kind of logical sense. Hybridization CAN work for DK, but i'm fairly confident that this isn't what anyone had in mind.

Lava Whip is, and always has been, a brawler skill.

A skill intended for players that want to rush into the thick of things, take a lot of damage, disable enemies, and deal high bursts of direct damage. This is a sort of playstyle that encourages you to have plenty of magicka, and plenty of stamina.

This is not the playstyle identity of StamDK. They are far more about stacking DoTs, being agile and maneuvering around the enemy, and using a combination of melee and ranged attacks. A slow burn of damage.

Furthermore, the choice between molten whip and flame lash is a pretty interesting one. It'd be a shame to lose either of these unique effects just so we can have a stamina whip.

My StamDK is a brawler, in your face, toe-to-toe, standing my ground. So a stam whip would be perfect.

The current playstyle for StamDK might now be about stacking DoTs, but that's possibly a chicken and egg thing, because we don't have a melee stam spammable...

And while the choice between molten and flame lash may be an interesting one (if it is a choice available to you), it would be a shame to take away from stam users any choice for a stam whip just because mag DKs want to choose between two.

Jman100582

ToRelax wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Hybridization isn’t the problem. It’s the catalyst. The problem has always been there.

Objectively if we look at stam and mag classes and their respective abilities, we can see 2 universal issues:

1) Magicka classes tend to hand better utility and class heals
2) Stamina classes tend to have better variety of weapons

It’s always been the case that most magicka classes have good utility and healing skills, but are limited to a few weapon combinations such as Destro/Resto. In contrast, stamina classes can have several weapon combinations such as DW/SnB and 2h/DW, but lack utility and healing skills.

Hybridization amplified the existing issues because they allow stamina classes to tap into the magicka healing power and utility whilst preserving their weapon combination variety. Similarly, magicka classes can tap into that weapon combination variety while preserving their healing and utility strengths. This creates a situation where the BiS class is one that uses a hybridization of magicka heals and weapon combinations.

How do we solve this? It’s really simple. We give stamina classes more stamina based heals and utility abilities, while also giving magicka classes more weapons to use.

If your stats affect all abilities you can access in the same way, it becomes impossible to balance abilities for both pure mag/stam and hybrid builds. If Resolving Vigor is supposed to be sufficient as a primary self heal, then hybrids stacking it with Rapid Regeneration heal too much too easily. If Deadric Curse is supposed to give a sufficient amount of delayed burst, then hybrids combining it with Crystal Weapon get way too much. Both of these combinations just had one of their skills nerfed to the point they're no longer sufficient for a primary heal or delayed damage. That is an effect of hybridization having overshot the mark, not merely demonstrating a problem which was already present.

While it’s true zos always has always had a tendency to nerf things, it doesnt mean that in class strength of stam vs mag abilities needs to be looked at. Out of 15 skills, and 30 morphs (not including ultimates) many classes have less than 5 stamina abilities total. Which is absurd.

All classes should be able to choose between an in-class mag/stam spammable, a handful of major/minor buffs, a unique group buff, as well as a mag/stam heal of some kind

From there, weapon skills should be overhauled to provide any other utilities lost. Such as other major buffs, dots/debuffs, and heals. Weapons shouldn’t be used to fill in for a lack of class defining abilities. Remember when stamsorc literally was only dizzy swing? That is unacceptable, and while it has gotten better the fact is is that many classes still rely on weapon skills because many class skills are weak and underwhelming for no real reason

Some marks have been overshot, but to try and hybridize everything will require zos to go all the way. Not leave it as this current mess, which they continue to do

Oakenaxe

I wasn't a fan of hybridization at first but now I'm enjoying the idea. They just need to continue and finish it properly.

TheGreatBlackBear

Ratzkifal wrote: »

TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

GloatingSwine wrote: »

Achieving hybridisation by scaling everything off your highest attack number increased the diversity of skills but at the same time reduced the diversity of weapons and sets because there are no longer different local optima for different resource builds.

That's going to be hard to undo, because there's always going to be a mathematical best.

This. And what's worse is that sometimes you really aren't given a choice at all. Templars get minor sorcery as a passive whether they want it or not. So what does that mean? That means it's always going to be better on a stamina Templar to have more spell damage from glyphs etc. It's the same exact thing for magicka dragonknights. And if someone doesn't like that then too bad for them, you are never going to be as good as a hybrid player if you don't pick the only right glyphs. How is that not enforcing a playstyle?

That's not enforcing a playstyle. That's min maxing. If you choose to not seek peak efficiency from not stacking the appropriate damage type that's on you damage that's on you but it doesn't preclude you from picking and using whatever sets, weapon type and armour weight you want with whatever skills you want. The system has many shortcomings buy your example isn't one of them.

That's not on me if ZOS keeps changing the available damage types. It is my expectation that when I want to build a magicka dragonknight that spell damage and max magicka are the stats I should invest in. You can call it unreasonable to have that kind of expectation but I think that is the fundamental problem with hybridization - it kills identity as it forces you to give up on these things if you want to keep up with others.
Think about it. Did stamina sorcerers who didn't abuse their broken set+skill interactions get spared from the nerfs in Update 35? No. The balancing will always be focusing on what is theoretically possible and that means you do not always have the luxury of picking the skills you want if you still want to be able to compete.
Minmaxing and roleplaying a build used to be very much in line with each other for the majority of this game's lifetime (that's called delivering on "skill fantasy"), but now that's not the case anymore. Now my stamina templar has to use spell damage glyphs or face being 10% weaker than everyone else in PvP.
You might not care but I am being forced to make a choice with no good outcomes. Either I am not having fun because my build will always be worse than my opponents' or I am not having fun because I do not get to play what I want to play even though it has always been possible before. And hybridization is to blame for the current state of things.
So either ZOS replaces magicka and stamina with "energy" and spell and weapon damage with just damage or hybridization needs to be undone and reimplemented as an optional build choice with appropriate opportunity costs attached to it to keep it fair.

But ZOS didn't introduce a new damage type. They just made possible for more specs to achieve a theoretical max. Before the hybridisation changes Illuminate was useless to stam builds as most stam skills didn't scale off spell damage. Now that you the luxury of taking advantage of your class passive if you so choose and not doing so if you don't want to it's a problem?

If you value your roleplay so much to pick a class that has less self synergy or affinity with a certain playstyle then you made a choice. If you value your skill fantasy to the point that you decide to eschew the benefits of most of your skills benefiting from your class' self buff to spell damage then you made a choice.

Ratzkifal

TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

GloatingSwine wrote: »

Achieving hybridisation by scaling everything off your highest attack number increased the diversity of skills but at the same time reduced the diversity of weapons and sets because there are no longer different local optima for different resource builds.

That's going to be hard to undo, because there's always going to be a mathematical best.

This. And what's worse is that sometimes you really aren't given a choice at all. Templars get minor sorcery as a passive whether they want it or not. So what does that mean? That means it's always going to be better on a stamina Templar to have more spell damage from glyphs etc. It's the same exact thing for magicka dragonknights. And if someone doesn't like that then too bad for them, you are never going to be as good as a hybrid player if you don't pick the only right glyphs. How is that not enforcing a playstyle?

That's not enforcing a playstyle. That's min maxing. If you choose to not seek peak efficiency from not stacking the appropriate damage type that's on you damage that's on you but it doesn't preclude you from picking and using whatever sets, weapon type and armour weight you want with whatever skills you want. The system has many shortcomings buy your example isn't one of them.

That's not on me if ZOS keeps changing the available damage types. It is my expectation that when I want to build a magicka dragonknight that spell damage and max magicka are the stats I should invest in. You can call it unreasonable to have that kind of expectation but I think that is the fundamental problem with hybridization - it kills identity as it forces you to give up on these things if you want to keep up with others.
Think about it. Did stamina sorcerers who didn't abuse their broken set+skill interactions get spared from the nerfs in Update 35? No. The balancing will always be focusing on what is theoretically possible and that means you do not always have the luxury of picking the skills you want if you still want to be able to compete.
Minmaxing and roleplaying a build used to be very much in line with each other for the majority of this game's lifetime (that's called delivering on "skill fantasy"), but now that's not the case anymore. Now my stamina templar has to use spell damage glyphs or face being 10% weaker than everyone else in PvP.
You might not care but I am being forced to make a choice with no good outcomes. Either I am not having fun because my build will always be worse than my opponents' or I am not having fun because I do not get to play what I want to play even though it has always been possible before. And hybridization is to blame for the current state of things.
So either ZOS replaces magicka and stamina with "energy" and spell and weapon damage with just damage or hybridization needs to be undone and reimplemented as an optional build choice with appropriate opportunity costs attached to it to keep it fair.

But ZOS didn't introduce a new damage type. They just made possible for more specs to achieve a theoretical max. Before the hybridisation changes Illuminate was useless to stam builds as most stam skills didn't scale off spell damage. Now that you the luxury of taking advantage of your class passive if you so choose and not doing so if you don't want to it's a problem?

If you value your roleplay so much to pick a class that has less self synergy or affinity with a certain playstyle then you made a choice. If you value your skill fantasy to the point that you decide to eschew the benefits of most of your skills benefiting from your class' self buff to spell damage then you made a choice.

Ah yes, if you consider only picking the best from each spec a possibility to achieve a theoretical max for "more specs" rather than cutting the number of specs in half, then yes, it did achieve just that. Before the hybridisation changes stamplars were balanced around not having access to Illuminate. With Illuminate being available to everyone you force people in competitive environments to now also take advantage of it or fall behind. If that is not enforcing a playstyle I don't know what is. It's a prime example of powercreep as well. I just want my stamplar to be stamina only and there is nothing wrong with that. If I cannot be competitive being stamina/weapon damage only on a stamplar then that is a flaw in the system. Call that flaw in the system "progress" if you like, but I do not like it and want it gone

If you value your roleplay so much play a hybrid without hybridization changes. That argument swings both ways. The desire to play hybrid and be viable is not more valuable than my desire to play just one spec. Especially if we could have 3 specs if hybrid was given as a separate 3rd option instead.
I did not make a choice if ZOS chose to change balance and powercrept a perfectly valid playstyle, enforcing a new one that gets to cherrypick from both stamina and magicka skills, leaving everyone else behind.

Marto

StaticWave wrote: »

Hybridization isn’t the problem. It’s the catalyst. The problem has always been there.

Objectively if we look at stam and mag classes and their respective abilities, we can see 2 universal issues:

1) Magicka classes tend to hand better utility and class heals
2) Stamina classes tend to have better variety of weapons

It’s always been the case that most magicka classes have good utility and healing skills, but are limited to a few weapon combinations such as Destro/Resto. In contrast, stamina classes can have several weapon combinations such as DW/SnB and 2h/DW, but lack utility and healing skills.

Hybridization amplified the existing issues because they allow stamina classes to tap into the magicka healing power and utility whilst preserving their weapon combination variety. Similarly, magicka classes can tap into that weapon combination variety while preserving their healing and utility strengths. This creates a situation where the BiS class is one that uses a hybridization of magicka heals and weapon combinations.

How do we solve this? It’s really simple. We give stamina classes more stamina based heals and utility abilities, while also giving magicka classes more weapons to use.

On the other hand... Is this really such a bad thing?

Everyone has magicka, everyone has stamina. Regardless of your build. It always felt pretty unintuitive to have half of the possible builds entirely ignore one of your main resources.

Many of the most interesting class skills in the game offer utility. Having these skills slotted means you have more tools at your disposal, and more ways to interact with the game, in general. Why should half the builds in the game be forced to ignore all these interesting options?

Maybe we should stop thinking of builds of being either "mag" or "stam". And we should top looking at magicka or stamina as damage stats, and instead look at them as resources that you are supposed to spend, not ignore.

Amottica

This ship sailed and it’s not going to be reverted.

While I have no issue with hybrid builds I think the changes makes this year for hybrids is bad for the game. The complex combat system seems to be a challenge to balance as it is and increasing that chalky doesn’t make sense.

However, devs of any game tend to avoid reverting major changes they make, at least in an obvious manner.

What is needed is a vision for combat in ESO. One that guilds the combat team with changes they make. I think that would be good for the game.

StaticWave

Marto wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Hybridization isn’t the problem. It’s the catalyst. The problem has always been there.

Objectively if we look at stam and mag classes and their respective abilities, we can see 2 universal issues:

1) Magicka classes tend to hand better utility and class heals
2) Stamina classes tend to have better variety of weapons

It’s always been the case that most magicka classes have good utility and healing skills, but are limited to a few weapon combinations such as Destro/Resto. In contrast, stamina classes can have several weapon combinations such as DW/SnB and 2h/DW, but lack utility and healing skills.

Hybridization amplified the existing issues because they allow stamina classes to tap into the magicka healing power and utility whilst preserving their weapon combination variety. Similarly, magicka classes can tap into that weapon combination variety while preserving their healing and utility strengths. This creates a situation where the BiS class is one that uses a hybridization of magicka heals and weapon combinations.

How do we solve this? It’s really simple. We give stamina classes more stamina based heals and utility abilities, while also giving magicka classes more weapons to use.

On the other hand... Is this really such a bad thing?

Everyone has magicka, everyone has stamina. Regardless of your build. It always felt pretty unintuitive to have half of the possible builds entirely ignore one of your main resources.

Many of the most interesting class skills in the game offer utility. Having these skills slotted means you have more tools at your disposal, and more ways to interact with the game, in general. Why should half the builds in the game be forced to ignore all these interesting options?

Maybe we should stop thinking of builds of being either "mag" or "stam". And we should top looking at magicka or stamina as damage stats, and instead look at them as resources that you are supposed to spend, not ignore.

Yes, it is a really bad thing.

I would love to not ignore the other main resource. But the fact of the matter is stamina has always been the only spec that truly utilized both resources up until full hybridization. Magicka never needed to slot a stamina skill because well, they weren’t good. You wanted Minor Force? There’s Race Against Time for that, which is a magicka skill, so you don’t really need Beast Trap. You wanted a burst heal? Many classes had class burst heals that costed magicka and scaled with magicka/spell damage.

So magicka specs did not need to use any stamina skills because they simply didn’t need to. Do you notice how the moment hybridization went live, the BiS builds for stamplar had HoTD slotted instead of Rally, or the BiS builds for stamcro had Resistant Flesh instead of Rally?

All hybridization did was put a nail in the coffin for pure stamina builds. It wasn’t the same for some pure magicka builds though. You could still run a pure magDK, magplar, or magcro builds and be able to compete with hybrid builds.

Kingsindarkness

I might be taking this way off the track here but, personally I always thought subclasses would give the classes more depth.


.........but it would probably throw a wrench into everything and cause more problems, I'm really not much of a theory crafter.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

I certainly dont like where its at currently. It has actually become overly complicated in the effort to make more things viable.

Even stupid things like a "magic" character needing to swap jewelry glyphs to weapon damage because a DK might be giving minor brutality just shows how absurd it has gotten. We are to the point now where the distinction between spell and weapon damage is essentially meaningless, but be sure you dont get it wrong. I cant imagine trying to figure this mess out as a new player.

I am to the point where short of resetting the clock a lot, the only real way forward that I see is to remove max resources from the damage equation. Remove the distinction between spell and weapon damage, just call it damage, same with spell and weapon crit.

Tooltips would scale off of your Damage stat and Crit chance, Penetration and your Crit damage modifer (thankfully two these are already a single stat) would affect the actual damage on target.

Have some things cost magic and some cost stamina if you want (perhaps most damage skills cost magic, but certain utility skills cost stamina), or honestly, just make skills cost magic and make block dodge, and break free cost stamina.

You don't raise the floor by increasing complexity.

KingExecration

Much as I think the hybridization is some of worst things ever done it is long term for Zos. It means if everyone has to use even less skills for viability then their work is cut in half. Instead of buffing or nerfing mag and stam they now get to be lazy and just nerf the best of “that class”

When it was mentioned, tested, and talked about, it was evident to me it would just be cookie cut skills instead of more versatility.

At least when it was mag and stam one variant of a class could’ve been decent or good. Now it’s just that class is off radar for a patch or two lmao