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ZOS - from a Disabled person playing normal content, where's the promised accessibility with U35?
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Nomadic_Atmoran✭✭✭✭✭
✭I seriously doubt when they spoke of accessibility they had the disabled demographic in this community in mind. Rather they meant the large portion of newish/casual players that never get to endgame because they struggle with the games learning curve or because they just dont care. Either way it was just a misdirection because they cant be honest with the playerbase that they have no other options to reel in power creep since their monetization method drives said power creep. Since they aren't going to abandon that method of driving sales these massive sweeping nerfs are going to be a regular thing going forward because its their only option.Penniless Sellsword CompanyCaptain Paramount Jorrhaq VhentKorith Eaglecry - Laerinel Rhaev - Enrerion - Caius Berilius - Seylina Ithvala - Signa Squallrider - H'Vak the GrimjawlYynril Rothvani - Tenarei Rhaev - Bathes-In-Coin - Dazsh Ro Khar - Aredyhel - Reads-To-Frogs - Azjani Ma'LesKheshna gra-Gharbuk - Gallisten Bondurant - Aban Shahid Bakr - Etain Maquier - Atsu Kalame - Faulpia Severinus9 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Then, when you introduce content and re-balance content, you aren't dealing with a wild delta between the two extremes, which in turn allows you to make content with more reasoned difficulty levels, that have better accessibility and play to the average of players in a more sustainable way.
This may sound nice on paper, but this is not what they did.
It's exactly what they did (are doing) imo.
They even told us they would be adjusting balance in the next few patches as a result of these changes this patch.
They just haven't finished. They did step one, reducing the delta. Step two, likely to come, will be content re-balancing.
Edited to add that I am not even saying this is a good approach, or even the right approach. But it seems to me that they have been pretty clear with what their approach was going to be and has been, and it is a fairly logical approach. Piecing this out over a few updates ensures that they have real, live data in hand, with the damage adjustments, to properly adjust content, or skills, to better align with their goals. They try to shotgun approach the whole thing and it likely blows up in their face even more than it has so far.
So you aren’t saying it is good, but it is logical and clear….
Anyway.
Simply this - to raise the ceiling and bring down the floor, what is the difference between highest dps players and lowest?
Answer - sets and weaving.
Brass tacks, sets and weaving.
That is the primary difference gap that anyone, anyone can see.
How to decrease the gap?
Eliminate weaving and nerf sets.
That addresses the gap directly.
If you *change* weaving, no ball of any kind is moved, because whatever gap weaving affords will exist - and in fact if it is reduced its importance does not. Only if it is removed or made useless will it address the gap, because the gap is relative and moves with the adjustment.
And so you are left with sets as the main difference in what creates the gap.
Not only were sets largely untouched but new sets were introduced, and the one set piece that did manage to close the gap was addressed poorly.
Rather than make weaving useless, which would in fact address the gap - they made empower necessary and changed it, which only moves, and does not address the gap.
Rather than address sets, which are trivial to obtain by top end players compared to beginners, they hacked at skills and abilities - which are universally used across the board, and does little to nothing to address the gap, since by definition players of all skill levels utilize them.
So I mean, honestly now, is it clear, or logical?
What they say is, and always has been.
It is what they *do* that does not.
I’m not sure why the need to equivocate or attribute positive virtues to this approach that simply do not exist. Only by calling a spade a spade do we have any hope of any kind of an actual clear and logical approach emerging.
Though the chances are precious small of that, it is true, but it does no service to the game or even to ZOS to pretend that the results of U35 are reasonable or match the intimated goals.
Accessibility? Good gracious.
This is so oversimplified and simply not correct.
Gear: We have so many easily accessible gear sets now that are within a few % of meta. If you are looking at a 130k parse on youtube and you are wondering why you are only pulling 50k, I promise gear is not the reason. (By you, I mean the proverbial you, not you specifically). We have crafted sets like Orders Wrath that are insanely strong. A lot of very strong sets can be farmed from normal dungeons. You never have to step foot in a trial to get gear within a few percent of meta.
Now of course, you do need to put thought into your gear, and certainly, the ceiling puts in more thought than the floor. That said, there is only so much ZOS can do here. Gear treadmills keep MMOs alive, they arent going anywhere. Two seconds on youtube and you can find a very easy to obtain gear setup.
Light Attack Weaving: Simply put, Weaving is the biggest scapegoat in ESO! LA weaving last patch was maybe 15% DPS gain, and that is going from absolutely no weave whatsoever to a perfect weave. You could easily parse north of 100K without weaving at all. So again, if you are only pulling 50-60K weaving is NOT to blame.
Weaving is simply not the hardest part of rotation.
First, hands down the hardest part of the rotation for the vast majority of people is consistently casting skills on the global cooldown, in other words, the PACE of your rotation. Most of us are not human metronomes. I look at parses all the time trying to help players. Sure, sometimes I look and they have missed 30% of their LAs. And sure, if they missed 0%, their DPS would be higher, but only by a few K. You then look at their skills per second and its in the .7 range. That is the elephant in the room. Get to 1.0 and your you just gained about 35-40% damage. PACE IS EVERYTHING and nothing has changed in that department in U35.
Perfect pace with no weave out parses bad pace with a perfect weave by a mile. If only people would realize that.
The second hardest part about a high end rotation is buff DOT management or in simpler terms Prioritizing Damage per cast. That is how the best players pull elite DPS, they dont make incorrect decisions on what skill to cast next, and they do it every second on the second. I am going to go out on a limb and suggest that this actually may have become more difficult with longer DOTs in U35.
Third is probably Openings and Execute management. This really can move the needle on a parse, and it takes practice. Longer DOTs in U35 absolutely make the execute part more difficult.
Fourth is where I would put Weaving. And sure, reasonable people can quibble about the order of 2-4, and sure, there is interplay between all of them, the more you try to do, the more difficult it all becomes. Personally, I think weaving actually helps with most difficult task, pace, because your metronome is always the same button.
In any event, weaving is NOT, and has never been, the main issue.
Edited by Oreyn_Bearclaw on August 25, 2022 4:28PM10 -
boi_anachronism_✭✭✭✭✭
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exact numbers pls. If your dps droped from 70k to 47k, then it still ok. Though i suggest to test your DPS on 3 mil dummy, since now way you will get all those buffs in PUG dungeon.nokturnihs wrote: »All I see is that my DPS dropped about 33%
if your dps dropped from 10k to 7k, then i suggest to adjust your rotation - use meta spamables instead of LA and use 3 proc sets (for example: syvara scales + venom smite + skoria, so those sets will cast dots for you).
The point was that casual folks and people with disabilities should not have to chase or find meta to do content. On top of that 47k in a vet trial is garbage and seriously pushing it for vet dungeons. They won't take you. It's not feasible for anything beyond vhrc and there isn't enough damage in the upper teir to cover that missing dps anymore.0 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭boi_anachronism_ wrote: »
exact numbers pls. If your dps droped from 70k to 47k, then it still ok. Though i suggest to test your DPS on 3 mil dummy, since now way you will get all those buffs in PUG dungeon.nokturnihs wrote: »All I see is that my DPS dropped about 33%
if your dps dropped from 10k to 7k, then i suggest to adjust your rotation - use meta spamables instead of LA and use 3 proc sets (for example: syvara scales + venom smite + skoria, so those sets will cast dots for you).
The point was that casual folks and people with disabilities should not have to chase or find meta to do content. On top of that 47k in a vet trial is garbage and seriously pushing it for vet dungeons. They won't take you. It's not feasible for anything beyond vhrc and there isn't enough damage in the upper teir to cover that missing dps anymore.
You are not wrong. If you can only pull 47k on a target dummy with all the buffs in the world and nothing else going on, you have no business in vet trials other than maybe VRC and VAA. Its not that 47k cant get you through that content, its that the likelihood that you are going to pull 47k in actual content is laughable.
1. Mechanics make everything harder. 47k represents your potential. Dont get me wrong, trial dummies are extremely useful both for practice and the data, but they are not reality unless you are in a group that is highly optimized and capable of Burn Strats on almost every boss.
2. Groups that actually mimic the buffs of a trial dummy required for you to hit your potential, aint taking a 47k DPS along for the ride unless they are paying. Right or wrong, it's reality.
I still think that ZOS is missing the mark by trying to close the gap between the ceiling and the floor. Rather than focus on the player, focus on the content. Give us Story Mode, Normal, Medium, Vet, and Vet HM, and most of this problem solves itself.Edited by Oreyn_Bearclaw on August 25, 2022 5:01PM2 -
Jaraal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Nomadic_Atmoran wrote: »I seriously doubt when they spoke of accessibility they had the disabled demographic in this community in mind. Rather they meant the large portion of newish/casual players that never get to endgame because they struggle with the games learning curve or because they just dont care. Either way it was just a misdirection because they cant be honest with the playerbase that they have no other options to reel in power creep since their monetization method drives said power creep. Since they aren't going to abandon that method of driving sales these massive sweeping nerfs are going to be a regular thing going forward because its their only option.
You say "never get to endgame," but the fact that is overlooked in the U35 road map explanation is that a lot of the players don't even want to endgame. But ZOS makes it seem like everybody wants to, and they need to make it "accessible." And they appear to think that making DOTs last twice as long (when most stuff dies in half the time of the new DOT length) and holding down one button rather than light attack weaving is going to make them trial competent.
The fact of the matter is, many players will never be end game competent, and many of them don't want to be. And cutting player overall effectiveness by 20 to 40% is not going to change that, nor make end gaming more accessible.
Edited by Jaraal on August 25, 2022 5:04PM8 -
Ashryn✭✭✭✭✭Yesterday, playing the new update, I experienced a re-awakening of my Fibro that shot pain up my hand and arm. Previously this only happens when I have a boss fight that goes on for longer then usual, but this was during ordinary jaunts about Tamriel. Thank you Zos for the new 'accessibility' that you were supposed to be interested in delivering! NOT!12 -
Gnesnig✭✭✭
well, they extended dots for 20 seconds, so players don't need to recast them that much, which leads to a reduction in the requirements for APM.FluffyBird wrote: »What they say doesn't add up with what they do
Of course, that's complete bull if timers don't line up. By itself it sounds as good as ice cream, but ice cream and mustard is a different thing entirely. There's a recent thread about timers in this forum that illustrates the issue. Secondly, if you don't increase the damage and/or lower the health pool by half, the average amount of presses per mob stays roughly the same, no?
But it takes a longer time before you can rest, which will affect people with diseases that affect sustainibility rather then frequency of movements.4 -
nokturnihs✭✭✭✭Nomadic_Atmoran wrote: »I seriously doubt when they spoke of accessibility they had the disabled demographic in this community in mind. Rather they meant the large portion of newish/casual players that never get to endgame because they struggle with the games learning curve or because they just dont care. Either way it was just a misdirection because they cant be honest with the playerbase that they have no other options to reel in power creep since their monetization method drives said power creep. Since they aren't going to abandon that method of driving sales these massive sweeping nerfs are going to be a regular thing going forward because its their only option.
You say "never get to endgame," but the fact that is overlooked in the U35 road map explanation is that a lot of the players don't even want to endgame. But ZOS makes it seem like everybody wants to, and they need to make it "accessible." And they appear to think that making DOTs last twice as long (when most stuff dies in half the time of the new DOT length) and holding down one button rather than light attack weaving is going to make them trial competent.
The fact of the matter is, many players will never be end game competent, and many of them don't want to be. And cutting player overall effectiveness by 20 to 40% is not going to change that, nor make end gaming more accessible.
OP here just wanted to say while I might wanna try someday a normal trial and have done maelstrom arena before U35 and the miserable worthless experience of the solo arena in the reach (v. Hollows) - no I don't care for most of the endgame because I'm not gonna be much good there and while the sets are nice a carry isn't probably what I'm looking for.
I'm hesitant to post the stuff below because frankly there's a lot of harsh criticism in forums in general and i don't like talking about my disability because frankly it's depressing and getting told you're just bad at it or to quit isn't helpful but does make mental health a lot harder to stay healthy. I know I'm super far from meta and there's a reason - I'm not playing ESO to compete but to enjoy content casually. I don't PvP and I don't do vet content because I don't care I'm not the best or a warrior god or whatever... It's basically a question of can i enjoy most the content I can, does it help my body get it's crap together and is it fun for me to play.
So... With that said here's some details. I'll try and keep as much "whining" as I can out of the details but some information will sound that way and may be that way. I'm super depressed about these changes in U35. I just started getting a bunch of friends playing together from all over NA and we were having fun. Most were newish players and that's more my speed anyway. Less pressure to perform...
So as far as DPS numbers went, before I'd get 20-35k sustained DPS according to CMX on my stamina sorc using venomous smite, maelstrom 2h and rushing agony. The burst DPS when occult overload fired was crazy in the 110k for big groups. Now it's a lot lower. About 12k-25k over long boss fights and the pops off occult overload are much lower at 70ish k although that's obviously dependent on how many mobs proc it. The TTK is higher across the board so occult overload suffers a little there too...
Now about the skills I'm running on that toon. Carve, camo hunter, stampede, hurricane, critical surge, flawless dawnbreaker.
I realize merciless charge, maelstrom 2h and hurricane got hit HARD with nerfs.
About weaving and my playstyle...
I don't weave well.
I would hit critical surge and hurricane when I needed to but usually not always johnny on the spot because even with a gamepad those buttons are harder to hit. I would usually hit stampede to pop in on them, then spam carve, pushing hurricane when I could and critical surge. Would use flawless dawnbreaker but that's a pain in the behind for me to hit reliably or on a schedule because getting both buttons pressed at the same time is meh sometimes. My body is notorious for misbehaving. Anyway... So weaving... I would try and throw in a LA when I could but certainly not once a second. Same with HA although i understand that's like 2sec. Didn't need to worry about HA so often due to champion points in stamina on kill and recovery. The TTK was lower and I could get by not needing much there unless i was sprinting A LOT between fights in normal dungeons or whatever. Now that the TTK is higher I have more sustain issues and mainly my hand starts cramping/spazzin out because I'm hitting too many buttons too quickly or trying to anyway. Big problem with boss fights before even more now.
Content:
I don't do vet anything without my friends in discord. And then only as needed.
I play ESO because my disorder causes me pain 24/7 365 and meds don't help it because it's probably a brain issue. The official/half-baked diagnosis is fibromyalgia. It's maybe more than that or a bad case. Dunno. Playing games helps me distract my mind and that lets me relax a little and get a hold of the pain. With the lower time to kill, my hands start hurting much more quickly and I'm afforded a lot less of a chance to get them to settle down. Especially in pub groups because of speedsters and folks who won't slow down for nothing.
I have something similar for nightblade and Necro although the stamina sorc was by and large much better. Have Oaken soul on the NB and am trying out some of the suggestions above (thank you by the way those of you offering some suggestions!)
Anyway, hope that helps and addresses the requests for details and maybe something useful?
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nokturnihs✭✭✭✭
You're right it accessibility mode does... Almost nothing. Especially if you use a gamepad, which is a must for most games I play anymore except some games like path of exiles where I can setup characters that I can just hold down the right mouse button and go...The funniest thing about this the "accessibility" is that option in settings that straight-up has the option to turn accessibility on or off without telling you what it actually does so naturally I tried to turn it on and the only noticeable thing was that it turned my UI into console UI. There's probably more things it does but using accessibility as as a "reason" for essentially reverting the progress of people who actually wanted to put in even some effort of doing the game's hardest content is just a straight up lie and it worked as people would rather believe the company's words rather than the actual in-game testing of loyal fans. At this point, does this game need to be an MMO?
I already use the controller UI and have to run mods to make it somewhat useable. Been using Better UI that I have to troubleshoot and fix errors for since it's been abandoned. Thank goodness mods are written in lua and I have some familiarity or I'd have stopped playing this game a long time ago. You keyboard/mouse guys have such a nice inventory UI and the default gamepad one is just bad...0 -
Einar_Hrafnarsson✭✭✭✭✭We told them on the PTS Forum, content creators told them on several platforms, we told them on the regular forum.
People provided massive Feedback, with numbers, graphs and whatnotall. Everybody saw it is going to be a disaster.
Sadly it feels like ZoS sees us as an enemy of some kind they have to fight. It really feels like it. Should it not be Players + Devs and not Devs versus Players?Edited by Einar_Hrafnarsson on August 26, 2022 11:41PM5 -
MidniteOwl1913✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Einar_Hrafnarsson wrote: »We told them on PTS Forum, content creators told them on several platforms, we told them on the regular forum.
People provided massive Feedback, with numbers, graphs and whatnotall. Everybody saw it is going to be a disaster.
Sadly it feels like ZoS sees us as an enemy of some kind they have to fight. It really feels like it. Should it not be Players + Devs and not Devs versus Players?
Yes, sadly, it does feel that the devs declared war on the end gamers and the rest of us are just collateral damage. I still don't understand the why of it.
PS5/NA6