How i lost 65k DPS and why longer DoT's are way harder to play with

DirtyDanny

I was playing a stamsorc with oakensoul before the last update.
With a very easy 8 second static rotation, i was able to hit Nazaray in vet Shipwrights for up to 74k DPS.
So i updated my game after the patch and went into one of the new dungeons with this build.
My damage was so low and we really struggled and on the last wipe i had only done 9k DPS.

The build i had the most fun playing in my years in ESO is no longer viable for any of the content in the game.

So i logged in my nightblade to try out the other new dungeon.
I liked to play my nightblade in a suboptimal, but easy to execute 12 second STATIC rotation with 2 bow proc's.
But the increased DoT duration totally messed up my timings and i found myself staring at my skillbar having to decide every second, what skill to use next.

I know there were dogs in that fight. Dogs that blew up and killed me because i didn't dodge rolled them. that's the only thing i remember.
I dont know the Boss name, what the boss looks like. I know nothing because i was too preoccupied in the execution of my new, forced upon dynamic rotation.

I did some parsing on my templar. Same problem. The 12 second static rotation changed into a fully dynamic one, with a ton of barswapping. trying to juggle in your DoT's with a PoTL every 6 seconds. this will have my eye's locked onto the skillbar guaranteed.

MOST PLAYERS THAT ARE LOOKING FOR HELP WANT A SHORT STATIC ROTATION

Just take a look at some of skinnycheeks build video's from the high isle patch.
His most replayed part of his video's is always a short static rotation that deals good damage, and not the dynamic rotation that deals the most damage.

The longer the DoT duration, the harder the static rotation

If you want to use a 20 second DoT in a static rotation. Then the rotation will never be shorter then 20 seconds. Witch is alrady much longer then ppl are comfortable with now.
But what if you want to add a skill that last for 12 seconds or 15? Will you choose to undercast or overcast some of these skill for a bunch. Or are you gonna line them up in a 60 second static rotation? And then you might want to add the 24 second lasting skill degeneration. So you make a 120 second
static rotation too line them all up. EZ

RealLoveBVB

That's a strange way to analyze your dps.
You can't go in a totally different dungeon, with totally different boss mechs and expect the same damage. You said yourself you had a hard time and you wiped a lot. Of course you don't have 74k dps then. Just go to shipwreck again and compare your numbers there. Then you will notice, that you didn't lost 65k dps, but more like 5-15k.

DirtyDanny

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

That's a strange way to analyze your dps.
You can't go in a totally different dungeon, with totally different boss mechs and expect the same damage. You said yourself you had a hard time and you wiped a lot. Of course you don't have 74k dps then. Just go to shipwreck again and compare your numbers there. Then you will notice, that you didn't lost 65k dps, but more like 5-15k.

It is, but that is not what is important about this post.

What is important is that a great part of the mid tier players who rely on static rotation to do their job as a DPS are now having a really hard time. They sacrificed some of their damage for an easier playstyle and now:

They either need to adept their rotation in to one that is much longer and thus much harder to learn.
Or they have to master to play with a completely dynamic rotation, something they tried to avoid before.

casparian

People are pointing out that this may not be an ideal way to benchmark DPS numbers, which, fair. But I take it that's not your point. You're making a point about playstyles, and what ZOS thinks is a good playstyle and what isn't.

I quit ESO PVE some time ago over the exact thing you're now experiencing: optimal rotations turn dungeons into barswap simulators, not action combat experiences. You're supposed to spend all your time and attention focusing on timers and positioning and the mechanics of your rotation. The reward for getting really, really good is that you develop enough muscle memory to go into a DOT timer trance, where you and your rotation become one, all else fading away. Just absolutely riveting, blood-pumping stuff.

It's honestly always been that way in ESO, you're just discovering it now because U35 doubled down on enforcing that that is the only way ZOS thinks you should be able to play veteran content. Which is a really odd thing for them to do, because the introduction of Oakensoul just a few months ago shows that ZOS knows people want alternative, non-timer-obsessed playstles -- they know that is a fun way to play the game and made it briefly viable only to backtrack for no discernible reason.

Great job, ZOS. Subverting expectations with the best of them.

barney2525

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

That's a strange way to analyze your dps.
You can't go in a totally different dungeon, with totally different boss mechs and expect the same damage. You said yourself you had a hard time and you wiped a lot. Of course you don't have 74k dps then. Just go to shipwreck again and compare your numbers there. Then you will notice, that you didn't lost 65k dps, but more like 5-15k.

Yeah.

What possible value is there in 'testing' against different sources? You need to use the Same dungeon for all your tests in order to get an accurate understanding of the results.

DirtyDanny

barney2525 wrote: »

Yeah.

What possible value is there in 'testing' against different sources? You need to use the Same dungeon for all your tests in order to get an accurate understanding of the results.

Does it matter?
One day my build is working in all of the veteran dungeons, the next day it is not.
Does it change the fact that the majority of the people who went to skinny cheecks youtube looking for help on how to improve in the game, got their prefered playstyle made much harder to execute in update 35???

stevenyaub16_ESO

It's funny now that I've done some content. This change was suppose to bring up the floor. But these dot changes only benefit trial running when you can make use of 20 sec duration dots. Where for the casual and 4 man content it's useless more often than not.

These long dot times only effect things like in trials. where for casual and less hardcore players who do dungeons etc these long dots are useless more often than not.

Troodon80

DirtyDanny wrote: »

Does it matter?
One day my build is working in all of the veteran dungeons, the next day it is not.
Does it change the fact that the majority of the people who went to skinny cheecks youtube looking for help on how to improve in the game, got their prefered playstyle made much harder to execute in update 35???

It does. Applying two completely different circumstances isn't really indicitive of anything. If I'm in a group as a DD and the tank isn't applying X or Y buff/debuff then my DPS goes down. How much total DPS you're going to do also relies on the other people in your group (i.e. what their DPS is as well, this is simple mathematics of damage per second unless you're soloing the dungeon), and if people are dead/dying and you need to kite stuff or revive players, then it's only natural that your DPS takes a hit. It's why people have been saying the trial dummy is unreliaible for DPS comparisons post and pre-Update 35 due to the changes that were made.

The only real way you can do that is to compare what you got on Live in the past patch on a 3m or 6m dummy versus what you get now on Live post Update 35. 74k to 9k is quite baffling. I've not used Oakensoul much, but from what I've seen of my tests, it's around 25-35% decrease. You might want to change just one ability to make it line up. You can probably do a static rotation with 3 bow procs now if you wanted to (depending on the abilities you want to use, obviously).

Elsonso

DirtyDanny wrote: »

barney2525 wrote: »

Yeah.

What possible value is there in 'testing' against different sources? You need to use the Same dungeon for all your tests in order to get an accurate understanding of the results.

Does it matter?
One day my build is working in all of the veteran dungeons, the next day it is not.
Does it change the fact that the majority of the people who went to skinny cheecks youtube looking for help on how to improve in the game, got their prefered playstyle made much harder to execute in update 35???

Nope, does not matter. As you said, that is not what is important about this post.

I am going to extend what Nefas said and tell people not to adjust builds or play styles based on Update 35. The dissatisfied should wait for Update 36 to hit PTS and see if ZOS had an "ah-ha" moment and fixed things. Otherwise, there is always Update 37 next year, if ZOS fails to satisfy.

jaws343

Troodon80 wrote: »

DirtyDanny wrote: »

Does it matter?
One day my build is working in all of the veteran dungeons, the next day it is not.
Does it change the fact that the majority of the people who went to skinny cheecks youtube looking for help on how to improve in the game, got their prefered playstyle made much harder to execute in update 35???

It does. Applying two completely different circumstances isn't really indicitive of anything. If I'm in a group as a DD and the tank isn't applying X or Y buff/debuff then my DPS goes down. How much total DPS you're going to do also relies on the other people in your group (i.e. what their DPS is as well, this is simple mathematics of damage per second unless you're soloing the dungeon), and if people are dead/dying and you need to kite stuff or revive players, then it's only natural that your DPS takes a hit. It's why people have been saying the trial dummy is unreliaible for DPS comparisons post and pre-Update 35 due to the changes that were made.

The only real way you can do that is to compare what you got on Live in the past patch on a 3m or 6m dummy versus what you get now on Live post Update 35. 74k to 9k is quite baffling. I've not used Oakensoul much, but from what I've seen of my tests, it's around 25-35% decrease. You might want to change just one ability to make it line up. You can probably do a static rotation with 3 bow procs now if you wanted to (depending on the abilities you want to use, obviously).

To add to this, the mechanics of the fight make a huge difference too. There are plenty of fights where you can just stand there solo and parse on the dungeon boss and your DPS is going to be drastically different than a fight like Engine Guardian where you cannot do that and have mechanics to worry about.

You absolutely cannot compare two different performances on two different bosses.

VadimAleks

Because this is not a 2 times increased DoT time. This is a 2x DoT damage nerf!
The developers are lying about taking care of the players, who will "make it easier to maintain DoTs". For this to be true, there was no need to increase the time between ticks by 2 times, and even more so, it was not necessary to nerf the damage ticks. But the developers did it. This is a damage nerf disguised as "caring for players".

Oreyn_Bearclaw

I 100% agree that this was NOT the way to go. Not only does it make short rotations harder to use, it also makes execute more difficult from a decision making process as it is more crucial that the player make correct decisions as to which dots to reapply and which to let fall off as a boss is close to death.

I was excited at first when I heard they were standardizing DOT duration, but as is typical, ZOS took things way too far. What we need are shorter DOTS that are either all equal in length or all divisible by a fixed integer.

If some more impactful skills were all say 5 seconds (things like curse, POTL, Talons, 5 stacks of merciless, Scorch, Blastbones, etc), most DOTs were 10 seconds, and perhaps a handful of buffs/DOTs were say 20 seconds (might replace a spammable every other rotation). It would be very easy to build static rotations that are short and simple, but still have a little flavor. (6 12 and 24 would also work well IMO, maybe better because it would leave room for a 3 second skill like blastbones).

What we have now are basically, 3, 5, 6, 9,10, 12, 15, 20, 25, 33, 60 second abilities, and sure I am missing some in there. Good luck with a simple static rotation.

Edit: more I think about it, more 3 seconds makes sense as a common denominator. Make all abilities either 3, 6, 12, 24, or 48. 3 can be a handful of powerful skills like blastbones. 6 can be what I call cornerstone abilities, Scorch, POTL, Curse, etc. 12 can be the vast majority of ground based and single target DOTs. 24 could be a handful of class abilities, major/minor buffs, etc. 48 could be anything that ZOS feels needs to be really long to be worth the cast, or maybe things you might otherwise get from a potion or slottable.

The last static rotation I mastered was a 30 second static rotation on my necro. It was actually made up of 2 alternating 15 second rotations, each 15 second rotation was really 5 separate 3 second blast bone rotations. I can pull it off. Not to brag, but most cannot. Yes it was static, yes it pulled very high DPS (120k+ on a dummy), but simple it was not. And even that rotation had holes in it. Some things where over cast, others were under cast.

ZOS needs to simplify, not lengthen rotations if they want to meaningfully close the skill gap.

Specifically to the OP: I am on your side but the title is wildly misleading and makes it hard to not attack your position. Comparing a trial boss to some chance encounter in a 4 man dungeon where you don't even know the mechanics is meaningless from a raw number standpoint. Not even sure its Apples to Oranges. It's like comparing Apples to a Volkswagen. LOL

dmnqwk

My Stamden currently has...

9 second deep fissure
10 second cutting dive (during execute)
15 second stampede
12 second, then 22 second, then 32 second carve
20 second fetcherflies and barbed trap
25 second bull netch
60 second lotus blossom

So... out of my 2 bars, 1 is a passive leaving 9 abilities.
Of those 9... i have 7 different timers.
Of those 7 timers... only 10, 20 and 60 seconds share multiples.

So I have to time 9, 12/22/32, 15, 25 alongside the 10/20/60 timer! (I don't particularly hate having to do it, I just don't get where they actually improved things. Although not having 12 second winter's respite because it's rubbish for me has helped)

Oreyn_Bearclaw

dmnqwk wrote: »

My Stamden currently has...

9 second deep fissure
10 second cutting dive (during execute)
15 second stampede
12 second, then 22 second, then 32 second carve
20 second fetcherflies and barbed trap
25 second bull netch
60 second lotus blossom

So... out of my 2 bars, 1 is a passive leaving 9 abilities.
Of those 9... i have 7 different timers.
Of those 7 timers... only 10, 20 and 60 seconds share multiples.

So I have to time 9, 12/22/32, 15, 25 alongside the 10/20/60 timer! (I don't particularly hate having to do it, I just don't get where they actually improved things. Although not having 12 second winter's respite because it's rubbish for me has helped)

Exactly my point. I added some of those times to my post. This IS the problem. 10 Second single target DOTs were NOT the problem. LOL

francesinhalover

i love the longer dots, hope they get a small dmg boost though.

rotations are so nice now

Naftal

I wonder what skills you've been using in your 8 sec stamsorc and 12 second nightblade rotations if they are now 20 sec or more?

merpins

stevenyaub16_ESO wrote: »

It's funny now that I've done some content. This change was suppose to bring up the floor. But these dot changes only benefit trial running when you can make use of 20 sec duration dots. Where for the casual and 4 man content it's useless more often than not.

These long dot times only effect things like in trials. where for casual and less hardcore players who do dungeons etc these long dots are useless more often than not.

It benefits no one, actually. ZoS confused the idea of damage per cast with damage per second. Your DPS just goes down by using the longer dots, so unless the dot has an added effect that makes it essential to your build, you're better of swapping to something else most of the time.

No one is looking at damage per cast except ZoS. The players are looking at what's optimal, and what's optimal is Damage Per Second.

Nomadic_Atmoran

My Dark Elf Magden is my hardest hitter and Im expecting to have to shelf her come Sept 6th because shes a DOT/AOE Queen.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

merpins wrote: »

stevenyaub16_ESO wrote: »

It's funny now that I've done some content. This change was suppose to bring up the floor. But these dot changes only benefit trial running when you can make use of 20 sec duration dots. Where for the casual and 4 man content it's useless more often than not.

These long dot times only effect things like in trials. where for casual and less hardcore players who do dungeons etc these long dots are useless more often than not.

It benefits no one, actually. ZoS confused the idea of damage per cast with damage per second. Your DPS just goes down by using the longer dots, so unless the dot has an added effect that makes it essential to your build, you're better of swapping to something else most of the time.

No one is looking at damage per cast except ZoS. The players are looking at what's optimal, and what's optimal is Damage Per Second.

I actually dont believe that part is true. It is exactly what people are and should be looking at. In a perfectly dynamic rotation, each second you are making the decision, what is my best cast for the next global cooldown. In other words, which cast will give me the most damage. Are my DOTs ticking? Cast a spammable. Are two coming off cooldown at the same time? Which one is more damage per cast, get that one up first. Is the boss going to be alive for the duration of the DOT I want to cast, or will my spam or execute be the better per cast option. Prioritizing damage per cast is precisely what results in the most Damage Per Second.

I certainly realize that not every player thinks that way, but that guy on youtube whose build you just copied sure did.

Now as I hinted at earlier, longer DOTs dont simplify that process, they complicate it.

ForzaRammer

Before we make suggestions, are we even certain zos want to lower the skill gap?

FlopsyPrince

I don't care if I have the optimum DPS build. I just want to have simple fun. It sounds like the patch may have hindered that and it sucks if so.

Elsonso

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

I don't care if I have the optimum DPS build. I just want to have simple fun. It sounds like the patch may have hindered that and it sucks if so.

I have never cared about DPS numbers. My philosophy is that if the monster dies before I do, I have enough DPS. That said, even with enough DPS to kill monsters, if the combat does not feel fun, or feels strained, what's the point? I have decided that this is not the update for players to adapt. It is the update to sit on the sidelines and wait for ZOS to adapt.