Simple Oakensoul fix

BlackKnight556 · August 2022

So this has already been said (repeatedly) but there is a really incredibly simple way to fix Oakensoul so that it is balanced for both PvE and PvP. Items like this need to be affected by the Battle Spirit passive. In this case, while in a PvP environment the ring would only receive the minor versions of its available buffs while in PvE the ring would receive all of the major and minor buffs as normal.

Now I personally do not consider the ring as it is on live now to be OP for PvE. In fact, it's great for increasing accessibility for new, low-skilled or disabled players. It's an excellent tool for solo players like myself that don't want to HAVE to group up every single time I try anything that isn't normal overland content.

I know that this change has been suggested so many times that people making the suggestion seem like a broken record but honestly it seems like the simplest fix that would please the most people, and besides ESO is the only MMORPG I have ever played that doesn't have it's PvP and PvE modes balanced separately so maybe it's time that ZOS gets on with implementing that.

carly · August 2022

There is but they won't do it. It wasn't just PVP players saying it was OP - it was also PVE players saying that people with mediocre skills were now able to solo dungeons with Oakensoul and they shouldn't be able to. I also saw some criticism that too many Vet players were showing up in groups with the ring as well - I expect that these are the real reasons they didn't consider that suggestion.

Marto · August 2022

BlackKnight556 wrote: »

Now I personally do not consider the ring as it is on live now to be OP for PvE.

And there's the problem with your whole suggestion and argument.

If the ring was perfectly balanced for PVE and OP in PVP, then yeah, a change like this would make sense.

But the ring was not perfectly balanced for PVE. It was overtuned and needed a nerf. Simple as that.

8.1.0 nerfed it appropriately for PVP, but nerfed it too much for PVE. ZOS listened to the feedback, and decided to buff it by giving it Slayer and Aegis.

It's still a pretty great accessibility tool. Your damage is still substantially better than a 1-bar build, and your survivability is just as good, if not better than before.

CaptainVenom · August 2022

The ring is fine for PvP. Stop asking for more nerfs for the love of God.

merpins · August 2022

Did some testing earlier now that Empower is fixed. It's fine for heavy attack builds, but only if you're a Sorc or a Warden where you lack a source of empower. Better to just do a 2-bar HA buiild if you're any other class (don't really know what Necro has access to since I do not play it). And if you're not doing a HA build, it's not work using over Sea Serpent's Coil, or just a monster helm set. Before it was a fine case of dropping some damage (usually about 20%) to do a more casual build that can still play harder content. Not the hardest content and not for score pushing, but you could use it casually. Now, unless you're a HA build, you'd be dropping ~40% damage to use this ring on a more casual build. That's not worth it, honestly. And a 40% damage drop isn't even really worth it for disabled players, either.

Toxic_Hemlock · August 2022

merpins wrote: »

Did some testing earlier now that Empower is fixed. It's fine for heavy attack builds, but only if you're a Sorc or a Warden where you lack a source of empower. Better to just do a 2-bar HA buiild if you're any other class (don't really know what Necro has access to since I do not play it). And if you're not doing a HA build, it's not work using over Sea Serpent's Coil, or just a monster helm set. Before it was a fine case of dropping some damage (usually about 20%) to do a more casual build that can still play harder content. Not the hardest content and not for score pushing, but you could use it casually. Now, unless you're a HA build, you'd be dropping ~40% damage to use this ring on a more casual build. That's not worth it, honestly. And a 40% damage drop isn't even really worth it for disabled players, either.

As a disabled player I am going back to 2 bar and wild hunt. My logic is I may as well be fast if I hit like a wet noodle anyways. The dungeon buffs are nice I guess, but as I rarely do dungeons and I won't even attempt the trials and arenas now I see no use for this ring.

They got my money for a card game and sadly that is all that counts to them I feel. I'll be cancelling my ESO+ until they get a balance team that can actually raise the floor as was intended for people like me though as there is no use paying for content that I will never be able to do.

Vahndamme · August 2022

People gave up on Oakensoul, many posts were made. All ignored. Just like the rest. So we'll just let this one run out. If I'm around next chapter, I won't buy it till it's either sick discount or whatever. Not gonna bother anymore tbh. False promises.

Vahndamme · August 2022

carly wrote: »

There is but they won't do it. It wasn't just PVP players saying it was OP - it was also PVE players saying that people with mediocre skills were now able to solo dungeons with Oakensoul and they shouldn't be able to. I also saw some criticism that too many Vet players were showing up in groups with the ring as well - I expect that these are the real reasons they didn't consider that suggestion.

Legit I cannot imagine any vet trial people that run Oakensoul. It's just so much weaker than 2bars..

BlackKnight556 · August 2022

Marto wrote: »

BlackKnight556 wrote: »

Now I personally do not consider the ring as it is on live now to be OP for PvE.

And there's the problem with your whole suggestion and argument.

If the ring was perfectly balanced for PVE and OP in PVP, then yeah, a change like this would make sense.

But the ring was not perfectly balanced for PVE. It was overtuned and needed a nerf. Simple as that.

8.1.0 nerfed it appropriately for PVP, but nerfed it too much for PVE. ZOS listened to the feedback, and decided to buff it by giving it Slayer and Aegis.

It's still a pretty great accessibility tool. Your damage is still substantially better than a 1-bar build, and your survivability is just as good, if not better than before.

Slayer and Aegis are all well and fine for Dungeons and Trials but utterly useless for any other content. These buffs are too situational whereas the previous buffs worked in ANY content. The Ring was already balanced for PvE by locking you into one bar and one weapon. It didn't need more balancing for PvE content. Why care if mediocre players can solo dungeons, most main game dungeons have been soloable for years now, and mediocre players aren't going to be soloing DLC dungeons, ring or not.

I can understand the backlash against the current stats of the ring in PvP but in PvE, an environment where none of this hurts YOU, who cares?

merpins · August 2022

We say "battle spirit" and ZoS says "never heard of it." They don't respond to people asking about battle spirit, if they did they would have addressed it by now with the sheer number of people calling for it for this ring alone, let alone EVERYTHING ELSE people wish they'd use it for.

On a side note, I was able to make a half decent oakensoul build on the PTS by doing something kinda weird. It's not great, but it does about the same amount of damage my old stam sorc oakensoul did. Not saying it justifies the nerf to Oaken, but if you're looking for a new oaken build that's probably just as good as old builds on live, this is probably the one you're looking for.

So Imperial Sorcerer. This is a stam sorc hybrid build that's a bit weird. It did ~92k on the trial dummy, which is about 80k when adjusted to the trial dummy buff. It did about 51k dps on the 3 mil dummy.

Gear: 5 pieces Pillars of Nirn (daggers, head, top, bottom), 5 piece Order's Wrath (ring + neck, the light belt, glove, shoes), 1 Slimecraw (light shoulder), Oakensoul

Bar: Crystal Frags, Daedric Prey, Bound Armaments, Clannifer, Tormentor, and Atronach.

Here's the kinda weird thing about it; Since you have Bound Armaments, you're going to want to pump Stamina. But all your skills sans 1 are magicka, including your spammable (in this case it's frags). So with that in mind, you're going to want your Order's Wrath to be light armor, 3 small pieces (I did belt shoe glove) and a light slimecraw (shoulder). Enchant all your armor with stam, and your jewelry with physical harm and bloodthirsty. Go daggers, the normal setup of charged + nirnhoned with a fire and a poison enchant. You'll need Magicka pots here, but tripots are best.

And the other weird one; your food. You need max Stamina, but magicka recovery. It's too bad there's no max health max stam magicka recovery food that I could find, but there's blue max stam and magic recovery. Use Candied Jester Coins.

Oh, and I used the Thief Mundus.

With this loadout, your damage is stamina and weapon damage based, but you still benefit from minor prophecy on most of your skills. You need to weave decently otherwise you will run out of resources (you're spamming magicka abilities with ~12k max magicka here). I only had close calls when the dummy was above 50% health, since you keep up Tormentor's extra damage and that makes it pretty close to running out of resources. I was down to 5% at one point, but it goes back up quickly so I didn't run out. If they ever release a Magicka light version of Coral Riptide, that would be better than Order's wrath, I believe.

IZZEFlameLash · August 2022

Vahndamme wrote: »

carly wrote: »

There is but they won't do it. It wasn't just PVP players saying it was OP - it was also PVE players saying that people with mediocre skills were now able to solo dungeons with Oakensoul and they shouldn't be able to. I also saw some criticism that too many Vet players were showing up in groups with the ring as well - I expect that these are the real reasons they didn't consider that suggestion.

Legit I cannot imagine any vet trial people that run Oakensoul. It's just so much weaker than 2bars..

Because having 2 bars = more skill slots while groups are providing the same buffs on cd virtually, why would they want to gimp themselves via 1 bar build? Those that say 1 bars are used to breeze through trials probably watched intense gear swap/pre-buffed footages. Nearly all 110-130k parses are done with 2 bar set ups or a setup that uses pretty strong skills that pulls the weight on a class's dps already.

DairyCat · August 2022

Vahndamme wrote: »

carly wrote: »

There is but they won't do it. It wasn't just PVP players saying it was OP - it was also PVE players saying that people with mediocre skills were now able to solo dungeons with Oakensoul and they shouldn't be able to. I also saw some criticism that too many Vet players were showing up in groups with the ring as well - I expect that these are the real reasons they didn't consider that suggestion.

Legit I cannot imagine any vet trial people that run Oakensoul. It's just so much weaker than 2bars..

Nah some people did do it. You can easily get 100+ DPS on some builds with Oakensoul which is enough for pretty much all content. It's not optimal but if you want to be lazy or can't be bothered recasting buffs it was okay.

DairyCat · August 2022

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

merpins wrote: »

Did some testing earlier now that Empower is fixed. It's fine for heavy attack builds, but only if you're a Sorc or a Warden where you lack a source of empower. Better to just do a 2-bar HA buiild if you're any other class (don't really know what Necro has access to since I do not play it). And if you're not doing a HA build, it's not work using over Sea Serpent's Coil, or just a monster helm set. Before it was a fine case of dropping some damage (usually about 20%) to do a more casual build that can still play harder content. Not the hardest content and not for score pushing, but you could use it casually. Now, unless you're a HA build, you'd be dropping ~40% damage to use this ring on a more casual build. That's not worth it, honestly. And a 40% damage drop isn't even really worth it for disabled players, either.

As a disabled player I am going back to 2 bar and wild hunt. My logic is I may as well be fast if I hit like a wet noodle anyways. The dungeon buffs are nice I guess, but as I rarely do dungeons and I won't even attempt the trials and arenas now I see no use for this ring.

They got my money for a card game and sadly that is all that counts to them I feel. I'll be cancelling my ESO+ until they get a balance team that can actually raise the floor as was intended for people like me though as there is no use paying for content that I will never be able to do.

If you rarely do dungeons then are you saying you only do overland content? You can finish that content just heavy attack with white gear...

Destyran · August 2022

When wearing in pvp your crit resist is 0

Toxic_Hemlock · August 2022

DairyCat wrote: »

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

merpins wrote: »

Did some testing earlier now that Empower is fixed. It's fine for heavy attack builds, but only if you're a Sorc or a Warden where you lack a source of empower. Better to just do a 2-bar HA buiild if you're any other class (don't really know what Necro has access to since I do not play it). And if you're not doing a HA build, it's not work using over Sea Serpent's Coil, or just a monster helm set. Before it was a fine case of dropping some damage (usually about 20%) to do a more casual build that can still play harder content. Not the hardest content and not for score pushing, but you could use it casually. Now, unless you're a HA build, you'd be dropping ~40% damage to use this ring on a more casual build. That's not worth it, honestly. And a 40% damage drop isn't even really worth it for disabled players, either.

As a disabled player I am going back to 2 bar and wild hunt. My logic is I may as well be fast if I hit like a wet noodle anyways. The dungeon buffs are nice I guess, but as I rarely do dungeons and I won't even attempt the trials and arenas now I see no use for this ring.

They got my money for a card game and sadly that is all that counts to them I feel. I'll be cancelling my ESO+ until they get a balance team that can actually raise the floor as was intended for people like me though as there is no use paying for content that I will never be able to do.

If you rarely do dungeons then are you saying you only do overland content? You can finish that content just heavy attack with white gear...

NO...

YOU can do that content with only the for mentioned equipment. I however cannot unless the creatures I am fighting dies of a heart attack from laughing at my "skills".

Let me put this as simple as possible, don't judge others, it belittles the fact that you too will age and lose your edge eventually. When that happens let us hope someone doesn't tell you just how easy some things should be!

BlackKnight556 · August 2022

I mean, basic overland quest enemies and overland mobs are fairly easy but I imagine that Delves, and Public Dungeons could be hard for disabled players and World Bosses are already a challenge to solo anyway.

DrSlaughtr · August 2022

I see the Battle Spirit argument made constantly, and not just for Oakensoul. Every time a set is adjusted (good or bad), PvErs say make a condition in BS.

If in prime time GH there are 450 players on and 50 are running oak, that is 50 server checks the game has to make every second.

Now let's say they do that. Now you have all the other times people have made this argument for other sets AND skills coming back up. Are they supposed to load the server with those calculations, too?

It's just not feasible. They're doing everything they can to reduce server load to help performance. The more conditions they add to BS, the more calculations have to be made for everyone logged into the zone.

Vahndamme · August 2022

DairyCat wrote: »

Vahndamme wrote: »

carly wrote: »

There is but they won't do it. It wasn't just PVP players saying it was OP - it was also PVE players saying that people with mediocre skills were now able to solo dungeons with Oakensoul and they shouldn't be able to. I also saw some criticism that too many Vet players were showing up in groups with the ring as well - I expect that these are the real reasons they didn't consider that suggestion.

Legit I cannot imagine any vet trial people that run Oakensoul. It's just so much weaker than 2bars..

Nah some people did do it. You can easily get 100+ DPS on some builds with Oakensoul which is enough for pretty much all content. It's not optimal but if you want to be lazy or can't be bothered recasting buffs it was okay.

Yes it is possible but does that mean the rings NEEDS to be nerfed at all? Like "some" people used it and it wasn't high end or trumping all other builds. Better even, it is by definition worse than 2bars on the high end. So in my eyes it doesn't need a nerf apart from PvP.

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Vahndamme wrote: »

carly wrote: »

There is but they won't do it. It wasn't just PVP players saying it was OP - it was also PVE players saying that people with mediocre skills were now able to solo dungeons with Oakensoul and they shouldn't be able to. I also saw some criticism that too many Vet players were showing up in groups with the ring as well - I expect that these are the real reasons they didn't consider that suggestion.

Legit I cannot imagine any vet trial people that run Oakensoul. It's just so much weaker than 2bars..

Because having 2 bars = more skill slots while groups are providing the same buffs on cd virtually, why would they want to gimp themselves via 1 bar build? Those that say 1 bars are used to breeze through trials probably watched intense gear swap/pre-buffed footages. Nearly all 110-130k parses are done with 2 bar set ups or a setup that uses pretty strong skills that pulls the weight on a class's dps already.

Not sure if you understood what I said? Cuz you're just saying the exact same thing I said. They said Oakensoul was way too strong cuz it made people breeze through all vet hm's and stuff.. but legit nobody in high end groups would run it because 2bars is just so much better.

merpins · August 2022

Did some more testing with Empower fixed. Used a bow to simulate only fully charged heavy attacks getting the buff; it's back to being pretty garbage again. It's... fine. But the top end you're gonna get with that kind of build isn't very high. You'll deal a bit more damage with a lightning staff, but it won't be a significant increase. HA builds will work fine, but one-bar HA builds won't be worth it, even with this ring. So the ring will probably see a sharp drop off of use come monday.

Holycannoli · August 2022

I'm still going to use it because I really hate bar swapping. Even without Oakensoul I didn't do it lol.