I'd kind of like to just be an "Adventurer", instead of being a SPECIFIC class with SPECIFIC spells

Ragnarok0130 · June 2022

Monte_Cristo wrote: »

Said it before, but I'd like to see the class system instead be all 18 class skill trees available to pick from, but you can only pick 3. Once you've put a point in a 3rd, you must reset you skill points to change to a different one. It'd make more variety in characters with all the possible combinations. Not everyone will just pick the 3 top trees to make the most meta build.
Plus, I want to mix DK's flames, Sorc's lightning and Ward's ice to make an elemental wizard.
Mix light and dark magic? Combine all 3 summoning trees? Daedric and undead skills? Earth and green trees for a druid? Dragon and spear skills for a holy warrior of Akatosh?

That sounds good in theory but utterly fails in execution due to this being an MMO requiring balance and not a single player game where such concepts affect no one else. In this scenario your course of action would certainly result in far less diversity as everyone would run the same exact meta skills/passives/weapons in the end game and PVP. It also makes the enemy and your teammates in PVP completely unreadable and as a result the PVP experience less rewarding and probably die completely from player frustration since you'd have no idea what your teammates or the enemy was going to hit you with or support you with. For the solo questers who log in for a week or two when a new xpack drops or those who drop in and out of the game frequently it would be wonderful, but for your dedicated players and end gamers it would completely destroy the game.

I have real world experience with this. In the Battlefield series we've had defined classes with weapon/skill/gadget restrictions for 20 years and it resulted in a paper/rock/scissors balancing concept where each class/weapon/vehicle was balanced in a game of measure/countermeasure and we all loved it. In the latest entry the devs scrapped classes and replaced them with heroes (to much community outcry) as well as eliminating weapon and gadget restrictions so everyone can use anything. Now the game is completely unreadble as you had no idea what your teammates could do or what the enemy could do, the balance went out the window, and everyone soon gravitated to the most OP hero/gadget combos and teamwork suffered because people naturally chose selfish gadgets instead of having to play a supporting role to your team to use a specific ability or weapon. The game has been a dumpster fire since then and the same would inevitably happen if this was tried in ESO.

Terin · July 2022

I dunno, it just kind of feels like there's a certain level of... inconsistency?

I mean, your class very specifically defines a certain suite of abilities you start out with. But it's also never really explained why. There doesn't appear to be any actual MEANING behind any of the classes, they're a purely mechanical construct.

And then you're got things like becoming a Werewolf or a Vampire, which seemingly come with all new playstyles and mechanics, which DO feel meaningful... yet they're not part of your class, and you can choose whether to use those skills or abandon them, based on "who you see your character as".

If I start a Warden, WHY is my character a Warden? Hell, WHAT IS a Warden anyways? What does this choice mean to my character, beyond the literal mechanics of what each button does, which can always be changed or rebalanced down the road?

Your class choice is obviously IMPORTANT, but in a lot of ways it SEEMS meaningless, because it's not exactly clear what the classes even are, or what they represent. Their themes don't seem clearly defined. There's nothing for me to grasp onto, to really IDENTIFY with. Nothing to make me think "THIS is the class I feel represents me". Or even "oh I really like this particular culture's Lore, so I'll pick the class that aligns with that culture".

That's why I circle back to the idea of being being a sort of everyman "Adventurer". Maybe you still keep classes relatively "exclusive", like Vampires and Werewolves, where you introduce say "the Brotherhood of the Dragon" were you actually learn ABOUT Dragon Knights, who they are and where their abilities come from. Maybe they're in conflict with let's say "the Order of the Light", which teaches their soldiers and clerics to become Templars.

I mean, I also recognize changes like that are really too big to make at this point. But I guess that just seems like it would feel much more organic, than this weird disjointed thing of "okay, choose a class, and here's a series of random skills you can learn for no discernible reason".

fizzylu · July 2022

Terin wrote: »

I dunno, it just kind of feels like there's a certain level of... inconsistency?

I mean, your class very specifically defines a certain suite of abilities you start out with. But it's also never really explained why. There doesn't appear to be any actual MEANING behind any of the classes, they're a purely mechanical construct.

And then you're got things like becoming a Werewolf or a Vampire, which seemingly come with all new playstyles and mechanics, which DO feel meaningful... yet they're not part of your class, and you can choose whether to use those skills or abandon them, based on "who you see your character as".

If I start a Warden, WHY is my character a Warden? Hell, WHAT IS a Warden anyways? What does this choice mean to my character, beyond the literal mechanics of what each button does, which can always be changed or rebalanced down the road?

Your class choice is obviously IMPORTANT, but in a lot of ways it SEEMS meaningless, because it's not exactly clear what the classes even are, or what they represent. Their themes don't seem clearly defined. There's nothing for me to grasp onto, to really IDENTIFY with. Nothing to make me think "THIS is the class I feel represents me". Or even "oh I really like this particular culture's Lore, so I'll pick the class that aligns with that culture".

That's why I circle back to the idea of being being a sort of everyman "Adventurer". Maybe you still keep classes relatively "exclusive", like Vampires and Werewolves, where you introduce say "the Brotherhood of the Dragon" were you actually learn ABOUT Dragon Knights, who they are and where their abilities come from. Maybe they're in conflict with let's say "the Order of the Light", which teaches their soldiers and clerics to become Templars.

I mean, I also recognize changes like that are really too big to make at this point. But I guess that just seems like it would feel much more organic, than this weird disjointed thing of "okay, choose a class, and here's a series of random skills you can learn for no discernible reason".

I do agree with you on some of these things. This is just a problem of ESO having weak class design. Having classes is well and good (although I do admit I was disappointed they did go with a class system), but really the issue is the classes themselves. Like seriously, I don't even have multiple characters because the only class I really can even remotely get into is sorcerer.... and even then I'm never fully content and wish I could be a REAL mage. Meanwhile in WoW I'm constantly jumping between my mage, priest, and druid just because I love them all so much and they're all so different. Then FFXIV has stuff like ninja, the most fun and interesting class I've ever seen in any MMORPG. Guild Wars 2 has amazing classes AND weapon choices that are all unique, then even specializations that change them up even more late game (GW2's elementalist/weaver is a close second to FFXIV's ninja). Comparing ESO class design to WoW, FFXIV, and Guild Wars 2 classes.... there's just a huge difference that I honestly can't even put into words.

Dark_Lord_Kuro · July 2022

Monte_Cristo wrote: »

Said it before, but I'd like to see the class system instead be all 18 class skill trees available to pick from, but you can only pick 3. Once you've put a point in a 3rd, you must reset you skill points to change to a different one. It'd make more variety in characters with all the possible combinations. Not everyone will just pick the 3 top trees to make the most meta build.
Plus, I want to mix DK's flames, Sorc's lightning and Ward's ice to make an elemental wizard.
Mix light and dark magic? Combine all 3 summoning trees? Daedric and undead skills? Earth and green trees for a druid? Dragon and spear skills for a holy warrior of Akatosh?

That would go exacly like you say it wont
Really bad idea
Instead of having at least 6 meta dps buid we will get 1 same for healer and tank
This will absolutly reduce variety

Dark_Lord_Kuro · July 2022

Vylaera wrote: »

I would like to see a return to the real Elder Scrolls format where you have 3 layers to build a class, all classes are custom classes. You would be able to respec your class at a respec shrine in your alliance capitol or major city in each chapter just like you can respec skill points and attributes now.

Specialization: Choose 1
Damage, Healer, Tank (will grant a unique bonus that either increases damage done, healing done, or healing taken, respectively)

Favored Attribute: Choose 1
Health, Magicka, Stamina (this would add a flat modifier to your attribute of choice, as well as a flat modifier to that resource's recovery, ex. +10% Max Magicka, +10% Magicka Recovery)

Major Skills: Choose 7
Path of Magic
Destruction, Restoration, Alteration, Conjuration, Light Armor
Path of Might
One Handed, Two Handed, Marksman, Block, Heavy Armor
Path of Shadow
Lockpicking, Sneak, Illusion, Shadow Magic, Medium Armor

So to recreate Sorcerer might look something like this:

Specialization: Choose 1
Damage

Favored Attribute: Choose 1
Magicka

Major Skills: Choose 7
Destruction, Restoration, Conjuration, Alteration, (+ extras you'd want) Light Armor, Sneak (as an example if you wanted to do sorc gank)

Each skill line would get 8 abilities and 8 passives rather than 5/5 like now. This is to compensate for a lot of existing things that occupy multiple skill lines across classes being merged together into standardized skills. On top of all this, world, crafting, and guild skill lines would be available for everyone regardless of class like they are now. And of course your racial skill line is included.

Desto, resto, 2h, and marksman would work almost identical to how their matching skills do now with some overlap with class skills, however, the others would be new or altered versions of class skills that exist now.

Alteration would be where you mostly source buffs for you and your group, such as Major Brutality (brutality and sorcery should be combined), as well as things like shields.

Restoration would be a merge of resto staff and templar's skills such as the spear and heals.

One handed and Shield would get split into separate skills, block would work like how it does in Oblivion and Skyrim, as would One Handed. This would be balanced around a 2h weapon being a "full" weapon, and a 1h weapon being "half" of a weapon. So you can choose either to dual wield sword/maces/axes/daggers for a full damage spec, or chose to offhand a shield for defense and tanking. Both of these skills would be active while using both a sword and a shield and you would receive the passives from both.

Conjuration would be a merge of the Daedric Summoning skill line from Sorcerer and the Necromancer skill lines to do with raising dead. Soul magic would also be merged in.

Illusion and Shadow Magic would basically be the Nightblade Skills split into two categories. Shadow Magic would be the assassination and siphoning skills, illusion would be the shadow skill line plus some new stuff brought back from prior ES games like fear and rally.

etc.

I would very much like to see ESO do something like this but I know it will never happen.

So eso isnt a real elder scroll, got it!
Better be playing skyrim in that case!
I personnaly hope they never destroy eso combat
To make it like other thes game...having a character that can learn every sigle skill is just bad

DorianDragonRaze · July 2022

I love the idea, sounds sooo immersive. And it will not work here sadly, but! there is something like you describe out there already:

Join Psijics and learn their skills regardless your race and class
Join Mages Guild and learn their skills regardless your race and class
Join Fighters Guild and learn their skills regardless your race and class
Join Undaunted Guild and learn their skills regardless your race and class
Vampire skills or Werewolf skills
Six weapon skill lines and 3 armor active skills regardless your race and class
wear any armor regardless your race and class
Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood skills passives

That is like a few dozens of skills to combine as you please.

Dracan_Fontom · July 2022

DorianDragonRaze wrote: »

I love the idea, sounds sooo immersive. And it will not work here sadly, but! there is something like you describe out there already:
Join Psijics and learn their skills regardless your race and class

Join Mages Guild and learn their skills regardless your race and class

Join Fighters Guild and learn their skills regardless your race and class

Join Undaunted Guild and learn their skills regardless your race and class

Vampire skills or Werewolf skills

Six weapon skill lines and 3 armor active skills regardless your race and class

wear any armor regardless your race and class

Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood skills passives

That is like a few dozens of skills to combine as you please.

That would be accurate if builds and recommendations didn't all utilitized the same abilities. A magic dps would be poor if they did not include Wall of Elements. Same thing could be said for stamina dps and caltrops/volley. All skills and abilities should be able to supplement each other instead of having clear winners. Not to mention the many many skills which are not good. When was the last time someone used Mend Wound from the Psijic Skill line or Trapping Webs from Undaunted? I sure haven't seen them at all.

Terin · August 2022

Eh, honestly I feel like I just kinda find myself in the same conundrum every time I try playing ESO again, which is "is this THE RIGHT character for me? is this the one I REALLY want to invest all my time and energy into?"

The classes just all seem so... vague. There's not enough lore to any of them to really sink my teeth into, yet the Warden, for example... like, what is a Warden? Why do they have such a strange combination of abilities? What's the story, or even their "class fantasy"?

Aardappelboom · August 2022

I agree with the sentiment, I wouldn't mind either and would love to just experiment with all the skill lines, even if this is a "mmorpg" it would probably be a frature that would stand out a bit among the standard mmorpg's out there and it would fit better with their mantra of "play how you want" and the idea of making ESO a traditional never ending adventure ES game.

People are very much against this but it's not like the classes are very unique or different from each other, while I also think it's too late to shake things up, you never know what ZOS is going to do.

I'd even go as far as mentioning, if they'd ever do it, the near future would be the time to do it. The recent hybridization and update 35, which nerfs things down and has some weird changes that bring class and weapon skills very close to one another (flurry vs jabs) don't make that much sense on their own so I at least hope they are working toward something here.

I just want to mention to anyone saying no outright: there won't be one meta build, there will always be roles and skills that work with each other and there will be some options that work more or less equally good. I've played ESO long enough to know that even the best PVP builds are only good because they click with the players. I would really like to see this happen on a test server, just to find out what people come up with.

Jazraena · August 2022

Further, outside the top end of the content (whose requirements are another issue altogether, as presently demonstrated by U35) you already have quite a bit more build flexibility for most of the content than people admit in here - and that's despite abilities being occasionally very poorly balanced right now.

danno8 · August 2022

Ff14 has class quests right out of the gate that gives you an explanation of what your class (called job in that game) does, what their purpose and ideology is. As you go along the class quests you learn critical skills and grow your character. There is a whole story behind your class. This works because FF14 is rather restrictive in its leveling process.

I think that is sorely missing in the classes in this game. Why am I a Templar? How did I learn this stuff and why do I just learn random skill as I am fighting things?

Because they have made One Tamriel how it is and they want you to be able to do anything in any order I think the ship has sailed on having any true character flavor in game. It all has to be imaginary RP.

Dawnblade · August 2022

fizzylu wrote: »

Terin wrote: »

I dunno, it just kind of feels like there's a certain level of... inconsistency?

I mean, your class very specifically defines a certain suite of abilities you start out with. But it's also never really explained why. There doesn't appear to be any actual MEANING behind any of the classes, they're a purely mechanical construct.

And then you're got things like becoming a Werewolf or a Vampire, which seemingly come with all new playstyles and mechanics, which DO feel meaningful... yet they're not part of your class, and you can choose whether to use those skills or abandon them, based on "who you see your character as".

If I start a Warden, WHY is my character a Warden? Hell, WHAT IS a Warden anyways? What does this choice mean to my character, beyond the literal mechanics of what each button does, which can always be changed or rebalanced down the road?

Your class choice is obviously IMPORTANT, but in a lot of ways it SEEMS meaningless, because it's not exactly clear what the classes even are, or what they represent. Their themes don't seem clearly defined. There's nothing for me to grasp onto, to really IDENTIFY with. Nothing to make me think "THIS is the class I feel represents me". Or even "oh I really like this particular culture's Lore, so I'll pick the class that aligns with that culture".

That's why I circle back to the idea of being being a sort of everyman "Adventurer". Maybe you still keep classes relatively "exclusive", like Vampires and Werewolves, where you introduce say "the Brotherhood of the Dragon" were you actually learn ABOUT Dragon Knights, who they are and where their abilities come from. Maybe they're in conflict with let's say "the Order of the Light", which teaches their soldiers and clerics to become Templars.

I mean, I also recognize changes like that are really too big to make at this point. But I guess that just seems like it would feel much more organic, than this weird disjointed thing of "okay, choose a class, and here's a series of random skills you can learn for no discernible reason".

I do agree with you on some of these things. This is just a problem of ESO having weak class design. Having classes is well and good (although I do admit I was disappointed they did go with a class system), but really the issue is the classes themselves. Like seriously, I don't even have multiple characters because the only class I really can even remotely get into is sorcerer.... and even then I'm never fully content and wish I could be a REAL mage. Meanwhile in WoW I'm constantly jumping between my mage, priest, and druid just because I love them all so much and they're all so different. Then FFXIV has stuff like ninja, the most fun and interesting class I've ever seen in any MMORPG. Guild Wars 2 has amazing classes AND weapon choices that are all unique, then even specializations that change them up even more late game (GW2's elementalist/weaver is a close second to FFXIV's ninja). Comparing ESO class design to WoW, FFXIV, and Guild Wars 2 classes.... there's just a huge difference that I honestly can't even put into words.

ESO's classes being the way they are is the result of a compromise between having classes in the traditional MMO sense both for identity and balance, and not restricting abilities and roles by class to be more single-player RPG style and allow players to 'play their own way'.

In WoW, your mage can't wield a pair of swords, wear heavy armor, and be a healer; in FFXIV your ninja can't use light armor, magika and tank with a staff.

In ESO, all that is possible - you can be a medium armor caster Nord healer stacking stamina using a sword and shield, even if your 'performance' sucks and no group wants you to join them.

That compromise comes with some advantages in not being locked into specific roles or play-styles, but makes balance for group content a nightmare as well as leads to stuff like the stupid easy overland and normal content as it has to be tuned to allow that medium armor Nord healer with sword and board to succeed.

Jazraena · August 2022

Dawnblade wrote: »

fizzylu wrote: »

Terin wrote: »

I dunno, it just kind of feels like there's a certain level of... inconsistency?

I mean, your class very specifically defines a certain suite of abilities you start out with. But it's also never really explained why. There doesn't appear to be any actual MEANING behind any of the classes, they're a purely mechanical construct.

And then you're got things like becoming a Werewolf or a Vampire, which seemingly come with all new playstyles and mechanics, which DO feel meaningful... yet they're not part of your class, and you can choose whether to use those skills or abandon them, based on "who you see your character as".

If I start a Warden, WHY is my character a Warden? Hell, WHAT IS a Warden anyways? What does this choice mean to my character, beyond the literal mechanics of what each button does, which can always be changed or rebalanced down the road?

Your class choice is obviously IMPORTANT, but in a lot of ways it SEEMS meaningless, because it's not exactly clear what the classes even are, or what they represent. Their themes don't seem clearly defined. There's nothing for me to grasp onto, to really IDENTIFY with. Nothing to make me think "THIS is the class I feel represents me". Or even "oh I really like this particular culture's Lore, so I'll pick the class that aligns with that culture".

That's why I circle back to the idea of being being a sort of everyman "Adventurer". Maybe you still keep classes relatively "exclusive", like Vampires and Werewolves, where you introduce say "the Brotherhood of the Dragon" were you actually learn ABOUT Dragon Knights, who they are and where their abilities come from. Maybe they're in conflict with let's say "the Order of the Light", which teaches their soldiers and clerics to become Templars.

I mean, I also recognize changes like that are really too big to make at this point. But I guess that just seems like it would feel much more organic, than this weird disjointed thing of "okay, choose a class, and here's a series of random skills you can learn for no discernible reason".

I do agree with you on some of these things. This is just a problem of ESO having weak class design. Having classes is well and good (although I do admit I was disappointed they did go with a class system), but really the issue is the classes themselves. Like seriously, I don't even have multiple characters because the only class I really can even remotely get into is sorcerer.... and even then I'm never fully content and wish I could be a REAL mage. Meanwhile in WoW I'm constantly jumping between my mage, priest, and druid just because I love them all so much and they're all so different. Then FFXIV has stuff like ninja, the most fun and interesting class I've ever seen in any MMORPG. Guild Wars 2 has amazing classes AND weapon choices that are all unique, then even specializations that change them up even more late game (GW2's elementalist/weaver is a close second to FFXIV's ninja). Comparing ESO class design to WoW, FFXIV, and Guild Wars 2 classes.... there's just a huge difference that I honestly can't even put into words.

ESO's classes being the way they are is the result of a compromise between having classes in the traditional MMO sense both for identity and balance, and not restricting abilities and roles by class to be more single-player RPG style and allow players to 'play their own way'.

In WoW, your mage can't wield a pair of swords, wear heavy armor, and be a healer; in FFXIV your ninja can't use light armor, magika and tank with a staff.

In ESO, all that is possible - you can be a medium armor caster Nord healer stacking stamina using a sword and shield, even if your 'performance' sucks and no group wants you to join them.

That compromise comes with some advantages in not being locked into specific roles or play-styles, but makes balance for group content a nightmare as well as leads to stuff like the stupid easy overland and normal content as it has to be tuned to allow that medium armor Nord healer with sword and board to succeed.

You could easily do with even more freedom than ESO has. There is no inherent problem with that approach.

The inherent problem with ESO classes is just that the classes are random and that they have no clear place in TES lore. Nobody starts a TES game or even fantasy game in general and then wants to play Mushroom-Cliffracer-Bear-Frostspike guy.

They want to play a warrior, a fire mage, a paladin, an archer, a druid, a summoner, and so on. Sometimes, ESO classes work as a toolbox to get there, but typically, you just get to decide whether you abandon that concept for the often random and far more niche ESO idea, or you operate with a subpar solution to stay true to your concept.

Bouldercleave · August 2022

Terin wrote: »

So like the High Isle stuff; imagine if journeying there, maybe some of the Bretons there could share with you some new form of magic they'd been developing. Or let's say we ever see the "Snow Elves", they could bring with them a new skill line to learn.

I dunno. Just something to think about.

You mean like the "Psijic Order" Skill line from Summerset

Or the Thieves Guild skill line

Or the Dark Brotherhood skill line

Or the Fighters Guild skill line

Or the Mages Guild skill line

Or the Undaunted skill line

Or the Werewolf / Vampire skill lines

Or the PvP skill lines

You are asking for things that we already have

Supreme_Atromancer · August 2022

Jazraena wrote: »

The inherent problem with ESO classes is just that the classes are random and that they have no clear place in TES lore. Nobody starts a TES game or even fantasy game in general and then wants to play Mushroom-Cliffracer-Bear-Frostspike guy.

They want to play a warrior, a fire mage, a paladin, an archer, a druid, a summoner, and so on. Sometimes, ESO classes work as a toolbox to get there, but typically, you just get to decide whether you abandon that concept for the often random and far more niche ESO idea, or you operate with a subpar solution to stay true to your concept.

Perfectly captured how I feel about it, too.

Dawnblade wrote: »

ESO's classes being the way they are is the result of a compromise between having classes in the traditional MMO sense both for identity and balance, and not restricting abilities and roles by class to be more single-player RPG style and allow players to 'play their own way'.

In WoW, your mage can't wield a pair of swords, wear heavy armor, and be a healer; in FFXIV your ninja can't use light armor, magika and tank with a staff.

In ESO, all that is possible - you can be a medium armor caster Nord healer stacking stamina using a sword and shield, even if your 'performance' sucks and no group wants you to join them.

That compromise comes with some advantages in not being locked into specific roles or play-styles, but makes balance for group content a nightmare as well as leads to stuff like the stupid easy overland and normal content as it has to be tuned to allow that medium armor Nord healer with sword and board to succeed.

Yeah, ya gotta ask what the value of all the choice in the world is. When the vast majority of what *is* possible is practically useless, your scheme of choices doesn't match the game environment you've created because all your rationale and careful decisions about how you will tackle the challenges in this world have absolutely no currency because DPS is the only thing that matters.

I also think that your Nord stam healer illustrates that debasing the fundamental meaning of stamina so that you can use it to spray golden rain over your allies and it literally heals them all, or generate personalised hurricanes with- what? - the power of your physical capacity for endurance? - works if you only care about mechanics, and couldn't give a rat's about what any of it is supposed to mean.

I understand why they did it- with limited time and resources its probably extraordinarily hard to balance for diversity.

But the M.O. of making it fit mechanically, and then awkwardly tacking on some out-of-touch half-baked justification at best was never going to feel authentic or satisfying. The mythology, or Elder Scrolls spirit, or whatever you want to call it feels undervalued, disposable, and hardly a consideration by zos. There's "very little lore about the classes, or what they're meant to mean" because they don't make a lot of sense. What *could* you write to justify the class package that fires birds at your enemies, mushrooms at your friends all while a jellyfish bobbles merrily behind you pissing blue whatever at the back of your head? As little as possible, don't think! Get on your spreadsheet and play the mechanics for Goodness Sake!

They don't feel organic, they feel like mechanical impositions on the world.

Not to be too negative. I'd love for them to show me different.

Bouldercleave · August 2022

The truth is that you can pick ANY race / class

Pick ANY 5 skills and an ultimate

Equip them with ANY type of weapon and gear

And complete 90% + of the game's content.

It's that other 10% or so (and PvP of course) that require more specificity in skills, classes, and gear.

I feel that the game is very much in line with the play as you want, but that doesn't mean that you can also be good at EVERYTHING. The more you make every class/race/skill/gear combo viable for everything, the more watered down and generic it becomes.

Supreme_Atromancer · August 2022

Bouldercleave wrote: »

The truth is that you can pick ANY race / class

Pick ANY 5 skills and an ultimate

Equip them with ANY type of weapon and gear

And complete 90% + of the game's content.

It's that other 10% or so (and PvP of course) that require more specificity in skills, classes, and gear.

So in both situations your choices are irrelevant, then. In 90% of content it doesn't matter what you do. And in the other 10%, it doesn't matter what you want, you should go with whatever suite of skills happens to arbitrarily give the highest dps this patch.

Neither of those situations are ideal.

Bouldercleave · August 2022

Supreme_Atromancer wrote: »

Bouldercleave wrote: »

The truth is that you can pick ANY race / class

Pick ANY 5 skills and an ultimate

Equip them with ANY type of weapon and gear

And complete 90% + of the game's content.

It's that other 10% or so (and PvP of course) that require more specificity in skills, classes, and gear.

So in both situations your choices are irrelevant, then. In 90% of content it doesn't matter what you do. And in the other 10%, it doesn't matter what you want, you should go with whatever suite of skills happens to arbitrarily give the highest dps this patch.

Neither of those situations are ideal.

Maybe not ideal, but it does cover almost all of the player base.

drsalvation · August 2022

Lysette wrote: »

That are nice and immersive ideas, but it won't fit in in ESO. There have been suggestion to free skill lines from classes, but that might just kill any diversity in the game - because people will flock to a combination of skill lines in this case, which work the best. I am not that fond of classes as well or the very limited use of active skills with just those 2 skill bars, but at least there is some variety in character builds.

It can always be fixed with champion class points. Like CP but for classes, all class skills would be nerfed to the ground, and by investing CCP you can improve the performance of class specific skills. So you can still resurrect skeletons and summon dremora, but only one of those skills will actually be effective if you invested in necro CCP or sorc CCP.

fizzylu · August 2022

Dawnblade wrote: »

fizzylu wrote: »

Terin wrote: »

I dunno, it just kind of feels like there's a certain level of... inconsistency?

I mean, your class very specifically defines a certain suite of abilities you start out with. But it's also never really explained why. There doesn't appear to be any actual MEANING behind any of the classes, they're a purely mechanical construct.

And then you're got things like becoming a Werewolf or a Vampire, which seemingly come with all new playstyles and mechanics, which DO feel meaningful... yet they're not part of your class, and you can choose whether to use those skills or abandon them, based on "who you see your character as".

If I start a Warden, WHY is my character a Warden? Hell, WHAT IS a Warden anyways? What does this choice mean to my character, beyond the literal mechanics of what each button does, which can always be changed or rebalanced down the road?

Your class choice is obviously IMPORTANT, but in a lot of ways it SEEMS meaningless, because it's not exactly clear what the classes even are, or what they represent. Their themes don't seem clearly defined. There's nothing for me to grasp onto, to really IDENTIFY with. Nothing to make me think "THIS is the class I feel represents me". Or even "oh I really like this particular culture's Lore, so I'll pick the class that aligns with that culture".

That's why I circle back to the idea of being being a sort of everyman "Adventurer". Maybe you still keep classes relatively "exclusive", like Vampires and Werewolves, where you introduce say "the Brotherhood of the Dragon" were you actually learn ABOUT Dragon Knights, who they are and where their abilities come from. Maybe they're in conflict with let's say "the Order of the Light", which teaches their soldiers and clerics to become Templars.

I mean, I also recognize changes like that are really too big to make at this point. But I guess that just seems like it would feel much more organic, than this weird disjointed thing of "okay, choose a class, and here's a series of random skills you can learn for no discernible reason".

I do agree with you on some of these things. This is just a problem of ESO having weak class design. Having classes is well and good (although I do admit I was disappointed they did go with a class system), but really the issue is the classes themselves. Like seriously, I don't even have multiple characters because the only class I really can even remotely get into is sorcerer.... and even then I'm never fully content and wish I could be a REAL mage. Meanwhile in WoW I'm constantly jumping between my mage, priest, and druid just because I love them all so much and they're all so different. Then FFXIV has stuff like ninja, the most fun and interesting class I've ever seen in any MMORPG. Guild Wars 2 has amazing classes AND weapon choices that are all unique, then even specializations that change them up even more late game (GW2's elementalist/weaver is a close second to FFXIV's ninja). Comparing ESO class design to WoW, FFXIV, and Guild Wars 2 classes.... there's just a huge difference that I honestly can't even put into words.

ESO's classes being the way they are is the result of a compromise between having classes in the traditional MMO sense both for identity and balance, and not restricting abilities and roles by class to be more single-player RPG style and allow players to 'play their own way'.

In WoW, your mage can't wield a pair of swords, wear heavy armor, and be a healer; in FFXIV your ninja can't use light armor, magika and tank with a staff.

In ESO, all that is possible - you can be a medium armor caster Nord healer stacking stamina using a sword and shield, even if your 'performance' sucks and no group wants you to join them.

That compromise comes with some advantages in not being locked into specific roles or play-styles, but makes balance for group content a nightmare as well as leads to stuff like the stupid easy overland and normal content as it has to be tuned to allow that medium armor Nord healer with sword and board to succeed.

That's my point though... is that freedom, with a class based system, actually good game design....? At this point, I don't think it is. Look at games like Albion Online. It has an armor and weapon system remotely similar to ESO's, minus the classes and over all it is better balanced and actually gives that so called "freedom" ESO intended better. Then Guild Wars 2 is the middle ground; it has the class system, with some restrictions to abilities and armors, but gives weapon choices and specializations that can change up your playstyle. Both are better balanced and have better class building than ESO. And never did I think I would mention this game.... BUT haha New World is actually what I imagined ESO combat would be like when it was first announced.... ESO's class and "build freedom" is somehow weaker than all of these games and leaves so much to be desired. That shows more and more as they release MORE AND MORE armor sets with overpowered proc abilities and their push to make class abilities close to useless (RIP jabs.)

Rowjoh · August 2022

The more you play and dive deep into the game the more you'll find that most aspects of it work and synergise extremely well.

The inevitable frustrations of a game this size are actually few and far between (perhaps PVP being the exception but they're making progress on that) and are completely forgivable, and a very small price to pay, for a game of this scope and scale!

Wanting to change or add bedrock core mechanics of a AAA title that's been around and evolved exponentially for 8 years just to suit your particular taste in gameplay is as wildly unrealistic as wildly unrealistic gets, and you'd be happier playing another game thats better suited to your expectations and needs.

Terin · September 2022

True, I think you're right that it's fairly unrealistic to think they would make such dramatic changes at this point. Although I supposed in fairness, SWTOR has ESSENTIALLY allowed players to play as "two classes" per character (it's honestly a complete mess, though; you can literally be a Trooper that uses the Force and Lightsabers now).

I think I see it as kind of a shame, because I always *think* about playing ESO. It seems like it has a really impressive world, and it seems like it would be fun just to be kind of a random globetrotter.

But the Classes feel... sort of like "the worst of both worlds". They lack the identity of playing a specific archetype, but also don't let you "build your own character" quite either. Or at least, the CORE class choice seems that way; it does sound like the skills you acquire LATER are more like a traditional Elder Scrolls game. Which... I guess just circles back to wonder if doing something similar with the core classes could be done?

Like learning each class's skill-trees from a particular "Guild", even if those skills are mutually-exclusive. So maybe the Templars won't accept you until you have official left the Dragon Knights, which involves a ritual that renders you unable to call upon those powers any longer, something like that?

But then again, who knows. If they ever create another class, maybe it'll be something that appeals more to me? Some kind of Hircine-themed Hunter might be sort of cool, or a Treasure Hunter perhaps. Or a Sorcerer that deals specifically in Flame, Frost, and Shock specs.

Carcamongus · September 2022

I agree the game should add some background to the classes, even if just a handful of lorebooks. Aside from that, there's already plenty of freedom to play as you want. The armory system expanded that, as it allows the same toon to be tank, healer and DPS, PvE and PvP, solo and group content, etc.

Memory_In_Motion · September 2022

pretty sure that was an option in tes 4 and earlier

Jaimeh · September 2022

Terin wrote: »

I really see no downside to this. But it not only gives you ABSOLUTE flexibility of playing your class, but also presumably makes it easier for the devs to consider ADDING additional new powers. For example, perhaps the Bretons have cultivated their own, slightly unique way of wielding magic. Perhaps the Nords of Skyrim are willing to teach you to use the Voice of Dovahkiin, or even a particular brand of ice magic.

Isn't this contradictory to what you outlined? If Bretons, Nords, etc., had specific powers unlocked wouldn't that again put you in a specific box, ie., what you don't want? Also, I think you can play your character how you described, because joining guilds does unlock new skills, so you can choose to use these instead of your class skills for a more immersive 'unlocking abilities as I adventure' feeling. Same with weapons: you can only unlock their skill lines by equipping them and using them, so you could use skills from weapons you found while playing, and so on. It's not exactly the same thing with what you have in mind, but you can definitely RP your character like that.

Personally, I like the fact that classes have a unique style, because I'm fond of having multiple characters, so I can play each one with their own style, and I also prefer races not to be restrictive with their passives, so I can choose whichever I like most visually without it being too detrimental for my playstyle.

Hurbster · September 2022

danno8 wrote: »

Ff14 has class quests right out of the gate that gives you an explanation of what your class (called job in that game) does, what their purpose and ideology is. As you go along the class quests you learn critical skills and grow your character. There is a whole story behind your class. This works because FF14 is rather restrictive in its leveling process.

I think that is sorely missing in the classes in this game. Why am I a Templar? How did I learn this stuff and why do I just learn random skill as I am fighting things?

Because they have made One Tamriel how it is and they want you to be able to do anything in any order I think the ship has sailed on having any true character flavor in game. It all has to be imaginary RP.

Oh yes, and I have not come across one that's not interesting yet. Of course, in FF14 they are classed as jobs and one character can do all of them. You don't need alts at all. I fancied switching from my White Mage to a tank class, so I just switched to a Gladiator, which evolves into a Paladin. It was as easy as switching the weapon in my main hand.

And back on topic, I do see where the OP is coming from (I certainly don't get the unneeded sarcasm from certain posters in answering), although using the Elder Scrolls method of character creation just would not work in a MMO, I believe.

Purely from a balancing situation it would be a bit of a 'mare (and we have all had enough of balancing attempts for a while...), and everyone would tend to graduate to the 'optimal' build anyway, apart from the roleplayers, which I laud the OP for wanting to try.

I always go for a custom class in Oblivion myself.

rbfrgsp · September 2022

Fighters guild + Undaunted + weapon skill lines = 'generic' adventurer, I think.

Amottica · September 2022

Like or dislike the class system, it will not be going away. The difference between ESO and other TES games is this game is designed to be an MMORPG, and class systems are part of such designs in any game worthy of being played.

Shadesofkin · September 2022

Skyrim was the only game that truly did that from jump street...frankly it was a bad choice in my opinion...but im a tad bit of a Grognard about the way Skyrim was built vs previous ES games.

fizzylu · September 2022

Amottica wrote: »

Like or dislike the class system, it will not be going away. The difference between ESO and other TES games is this game is designed to be an MMORPG, and class systems are part of such designs in any game worthy of being played.

That is definitely just your opinion haha my most played games right now are ones that have no classes; Albion Online, New World, and RuneScape xD I actually think classes are kind of outdated for MMOs at this point, especially if the game doesn't even have a good class system to begin with *cough* ESO *cough*. Like call me crazy, but I don't think anyone is playing ESO because of the classes. I've never met anyone that said "oh yeah man, (insert any class) in ESO are the coolest thing ever". Not even the most hardcore, will die on this hill, ESO player I know haha this friend of mine actually prefers FFXIV's classes; specifically red mage, dragoon, and astrologian. These are all very unique classes that aren't only different compared to other MMOs classes, but are even entirely different experiences within the game itself.
I will always be one to say that ESO is severely held back by it's class system and should have never implemented one to begin with. The way the game functions doesn't allow for interesting and diverse play between them like in games like WoW, FFXIV, and GW2. Like seriously, you can't even be a proper spellcaster in ESO.... and I actually think this is the only MMO I can say that about.
And I don't really think it's too late to do something like removing classes. I definitely don't see it happening though, but that's only because I don't believe Zenimax would ever put that type of effort in and properly overhaul their combat system.... which is actually quite needed and I think many would agree at this point.