Why do you hate NB tanks?

Iron_Blurr · July 2022

Why do you insist on nerfing one of the worst tank classes? Why can every other class have a burst heal but NB tank gets a weak HoT that seems to get weaker and weaker every patch.

Let's do some math.. You're in pvp as a NB. You have 25k health.
You take damage and now you are at half health which is 12.5k
Your dark cloak heals for 14% of what you're missing. So your first tick heals for 1,750 right? WRONG! You have battle spirit active so it's half that.
Here's your biggest tick of 875 health. And as soon as it ticks once your health moves up so it heals for less and less. How much lower can it even get?? It's already under 1k healing per second.
Let's say you are at 75% of your health.
That's 18,750 health. You are missing 6,250.
So what's 14% of 6,250? Well that's 875 health. But wait cut that in half for battle spirit. Yay that's a fat 437.5 health per second and it gets weaker every second!

Let's say you are a tank with 45k health. You take a big hit from a trial boss and you are now at half health. You are missing 22.5k health. What is 14% of that? 3,150 health. But the heal gets weaker and weaker the higher your health gets.
At that rate of 3k healing per second (which is more than it would be since the heal gets weaker and weaker every second) it would take you approximately 8 seconds to heal back up to full health. 22.5/3=7.5 and it's actually longer than that since the heal gets weaker over time and you continue to take damage from the boss you are trying to tank.
It will take forever to heal up enough to survive another big hit. If you get back to back heavy attacks you will die before to you can even heal yourself back up to full.

What's the tooltip on DK green dragon blood or coagulating blood when you are at half health as a tank with 45k max health? Is it 3k?? Oh and they get major mending on a shield. Wow imagine having a shield as a tank. Wonder what that's like since NB tank only gets bone shield or defensive stance.

Compare that 3k healing to any other classes tank heal and you will see how terrible it is.

Not to mention NB tank has the worst ultimate in the game as their defensive ult.
Bolstering darkness gives you 10% damage mitigation for 200 ulti cost.
DK magma shell gives you 97% damage mitigation for 200 ult.

HOW IS THIS FAIR OR BALANCED?!

Goldtistic · July 2022

Simple: go invis and confuse the boss.
[snip]

[edited for bashing]

ccfeeling · July 2022

Healing is major issue , beside self healing , there is other problem happen .

When we low on health and boss heavy attack is coming , as we can't burst health back quickly , we have to roll , roll more when we are in harder contents , stam cost increase too much .

NB tank healing is in very bad situation right now seriously .

DK , Sorc , Warden has great burst healing
Templar , strong steady ground healing
Necro , strong shield like spirit up to 30k damage
NB suppose to has great healing over time , reasonable amount a tick , that's NB tank healing mechanics .

PTS week 3
Dark Cloak (morph): This morph now heals for 11-14% of your missing health, down from 17-20%
Keep in mind that while this number may seem high, as the ability and other sources heal you it naturally diminishes in power, making it much better to use when you are below 50% Health.

Dev , that's your supporting information ?
How many healing skill should a PVE NB tank slot ? Let me tell you Dev , only Dark Cloak , when you slot more than one healing , it means that you have one lesser utility skill .

If NB tank has to rely healing from a healer , no one will do really hard content / HM run with NB tank

Please dig the game deeper before you apply the patch , you cannot change the class cored mechanics suddenly in a patch .

Dagobertfuk · August 2022

Im talking from pvp perspective, with halfed heal.

Dark Cloak how it is on actual PTS will be a Skill nobody will use ever again. A nerf for no *** reason. Like it was stronger than other Heals. Vigor was way stronger. And since vigor gets major resolve its even less worth it, to even think about using it as a Nightblade.

My Nightblade in Cyrodiil on live servers with 40k HP gets 2,6k hps with dark cloak. After the first Dark Cloak Nerf in pts week one or two, i had to be 50% Player HP to get the heal value from live servers. Right now on pts after the second nerf, i have to be at 10% player HP to get almost old value of 2520 hps. I did the math with the pts maximum of 14%. Even Vampire Drain, a skill nobody with more than 2 braincells is using in PvP to heal up, heals more than actual PTS Dark Cloak.

Any reason why anyone should use PTS Dark Cloak instead of another healing ability other than for style? I can't think of any. Mainly because every other healing ability heals me more by a frightening margin, no matter how much HP I have, except at 10% where Dark Cloak get it old healing value.
Image when i dont have 40k HP. Hard to imagine but it gets even worse rofl.

But a skill that only really works, when i am already with both legs in the grave, in execute range and eating 400% extra dmg from enemy execute's, is a total abilityslot waste.

When zos worked on dark cloak their minds were elsewhere.

edward_frigidhands · August 2022

With

Iron_Blurr wrote: »

Why do you insist on nerfing one of the worst tank classes? Why can every other class have a burst heal but NB tank gets a weak HoT that seems to get weaker and weaker every patch.

Let's do some math.. You're in pvp as a NB. You have 25k health.
You take damage and now you are at half health which is 12.5k
Your dark cloak heals for 14% of what you're missing. So your first tick heals for 1,750 right? WRONG! You have battle spirit active so it's half that.
Here's your biggest tick of 875 health. And as soon as it ticks once your health moves up so it heals for less and less. How much lower can it even get?? It's already under 1k healing per second.
Let's say you are at 75% of your health.
That's 18,750 health. You are missing 6,250.
So what's 14% of 6,250? Well that's 875 health. But wait cut that in half for battle spirit. Yay that's a fat 437.5 health per second and it gets weaker every second!

Let's say you are a tank with 45k health. You take a big hit from a trial boss and you are now at half health. You are missing 22.5k health. What is 14% of that? 3,150 health. But the heal gets weaker and weaker the higher your health gets.
At that rate of 3k healing per second (which is more than it would be since the heal gets weaker and weaker every second) it would take you approximately 8 seconds to heal back up to full health. 22.5/3=7.5 and it's actually longer than that since the heal gets weaker over time and you continue to take damage from the boss you are trying to tank.
It will take forever to heal up enough to survive another big hit. If you get back to back heavy attacks you will die before to you can even heal yourself back up to full.

What's the tooltip on DK green dragon blood or coagulating blood when you are at half health as a tank with 45k max health? Is it 3k?? Oh and they get major mending on a shield. Wow imagine having a shield as a tank. Wonder what that's like since NB tank only gets bone shield or defensive stance.

Compare that 3k healing to any other classes tank heal and you will see how terrible it is.

Not to mention NB tank has the worst ultimate in the game as their defensive ult.
Bolstering darkness gives you 10% damage mitigation for 200 ulti cost.
DK magma shell gives you 97% damage mitigation for 200 ult.

HOW IS THIS FAIR OR BALANCED?!

The healing from Green Dragon Blood is also enhanced drastically by the many passive healing buffs Dragon Knights have as part of their toolkit.

- Burning Heart passive 12% healing enhanced

- Major Mending from Fragmented Shield for 6.7 seconds which enhances healing done by 16%.

- Minor Vitality granted by Green Dragon Blood itself which grants an 8% boost to healing for 20 seconds, causing a second Green Dragon Blood cast to be affected by it.

This provides the Dragon Knight with a 36% boost to their heal, making it heal for almost 45% of missing health per cast compared to the current iteration of Dark Cloak which will heal for 11% - 15% of missing health per second. This puts the Dragon Knight heal and their tanking ability in a class of it's own, unreachable by what other classes could possibly provide.

edward_frigidhands · August 2022

ccfeeling wrote: »

PTS week 3
Dark Cloak (morph): This morph now heals for 11-14% of your missing health, down from 17-20%
Keep in mind that while this number may seem high, as the ability and other sources heal you it naturally diminishes in power, making it much better to use when you are below 50% Health.

I am not sure I understand what is being said towards the end here.

Are they saying to only use it when you're low? What about the minor protection buff it provides?

Also are they saying we need to rely on heals from other sources? Is that other heals we slot or healers healing us?

Also how is the number high in any capacity? These numbers are drastically lower from the live version, is the live version overpowered now according to them? I don't see how compared to the self heals non-Nightblade tanks are able to exhibit and they are not getting adjusted at all.

I feel like there are so many unanswered questions and no obvious plans to answer or address them.

There has been a total lack of communication regarding so many changes for Update 35.

MashmalloMan · August 2022

Easy fix, just dodge roll.. duh.

Blur:

This ability and its morphs now reduce the cost of your next Roll Dodge by 10% whenever you take direct damage, stacking up to a maximum of 100%, with a half second cooldown between each stack.
Reduced the duration of this ability and its morphs to 20 seconds, down from 26.

In all seriousness, really like the Blur change. This sort of out of box thinking should be applied to more class skills.

For Dark Cloak they can easily just give it a minimum amount to heal that increases the lower your health is. Best of both worlds for live and pts.

Aka, 9.2% on live changed to 7%, but heals up to 100% more based on missing health.

90% health = 7.7%
75% health = 8.75%
50% health = 10.5%
25% health = 12.25%

Same thesholds with PTS 14%:

90% health = 1.4%
75% health = 3.5%
50% health = 7%
25% health = 10.5%

Could even try front loading it more by doing something like... heal for 9%, but up to 33% more below 50% health.

Point being, numerous ways to do it, it just needs a minimum value so it's actually useful above 50% to some degree.

emilyhyoyeon · August 2022

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Easy fix, just dodge roll.. duh.

Blur:
This ability and its morphs now reduce the cost of your next Roll Dodge by 10% whenever you take direct damage, stacking up to a maximum of 100%, with a half second cooldown between each stack.

Reduced the duration of this ability and its morphs to 20 seconds, down from 26.

Now I'm wondering if they nerfed Cloak so that NB tank has to play around the dodge roll Blur mechanic when low to heal up or something LOL

MashmalloMan · August 2022

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Easy fix, just dodge roll.. duh.

Blur:
This ability and its morphs now reduce the cost of your next Roll Dodge by 10% whenever you take direct damage, stacking up to a maximum of 100%, with a half second cooldown between each stack.

Reduced the duration of this ability and its morphs to 20 seconds, down from 26.

Now I'm wondering if they nerfed Cloak so that NB tank has to play around the dodge roll Blur mechanic when low to heal up or something LOL

Bringing back the oldschool evasion mechanics that made OG NB Tanks fun lol.

Foxtrot39 · August 2022

Problem is if you ever gonna do vCR you gonna need to dodge roll 5-6 time in a row to avoid the bleed DoTs so blur dodge roll bonus is gonna be a moot point

Lykeion · August 2022

MashmalloMan wrote: »

For Dark Cloak they can easily just give it a minimum amount to heal that increases the lower your health is. Best of both worlds for live and pts.

Aka, 9.2% on live changed to 7%, but heals up to 100% more based on missing health.

A good idea, much better than the PTS version imo. But what worries me is whether dev is just trying to nerf the cloak rather than adjust it, even though no one asked them to do so

ccfeeling · August 2022

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Easy fix, just dodge roll.. duh.

Blur:
This ability and its morphs now reduce the cost of your next Roll Dodge by 10% whenever you take direct damage, stacking up to a maximum of 100%, with a half second cooldown between each stack.

Reduced the duration of this ability and its morphs to 20 seconds, down from 26.

In all seriousness, really like the Blur change. This sort of out of box thinking should be applied to more class skills.

For Dark Cloak they can easily just give it a minimum amount to heal that increases the lower your health is. Best of both worlds for live and pts.

Aka, 9.2% on live changed to 7%, but heals up to 100% more based on missing health.

90% health = 7.7%
75% health = 8.75%
50% health = 10.5%
25% health = 12.25%

Same thesholds with PTS 14%:

90% health = 1.4%
75% health = 3.5%
50% health = 7%
25% health = 10.5%

Could even try front loading it more by doing something like... heal for 9%, but up to 33% more below 50% health.

Point being, numerous ways to do it, it just needs a minimum value so it's actually useful above 50% to some degree.

New Blur not attractive absolutely , you have to slot one more skill to support your survivability , we just need one respectable healing skill .

New Blur maybe cool in PVP , not gonna work in PVE .

If dev want NB healing play different , please read below

Dark Cloak (morph): This morph now heals for 11-14% of your missing health, down from 17-20%
Update to
Dark Cloak (morph): This morph now heals for 47-50% of your missing health, up from 11-14%

Regain hp from 50% to 75% in 1 sec , back to full hp in 2 ~ 3 sec , you wanna put NB always in danger , better reward , logic !

Dagobertfuk · August 2022

Dark Cloak nerf makes it totally useless in PvP. With all that crosshealing going on and hybridscaling everyone is anyway running around with high weapon/spellpower. Those stats even make U35 Vigor stronger than U34 Dark Cloak.

Altrough Vigor will heal for a lot more and grant more uptime on Major Resolve than Dark Cloak with the NB passive Shadowbarrier does with full heavy armor setup.

Full heavy armor NB Major Resolve 16s vs vigor's 20s per cast and more healing than pre PTS Dark Cloak.

MashmalloMan · August 2022

@ccfeeling @Foxtrot39

I'm surprised I have to say this, but I was being sarcastic. There was a time where you could passively dodge attacks by using Major Evasion which made NB tanks unique. Pressing the dodge roll key is not remotely close to the same thing and I would never expect NB Tanks to bank on that.

Still a cool skill change to Blur.

Foxtrot39 · August 2022

Roll dodging is something I do quite often as tank, why block an attack that would deal 10k if I can negate it entirely by dodging?

Also aware old major evasion was about RNG to fully evading an attack without input

p4l4mu7 · August 2022

Foxtrot39 wrote: »

Roll dodging is something I do quite often as tank, why block an attack that would deal 10k if I can negate it entirely by dodging?

Also aware old major evasion was about RNG to fully evading an attack without input

Teach me how are you dodging damage over time