Please reconsider the phrase "power gap" and accompanying changes

p00tx · July 2022

The term "power gap" implies a couple of things: First, that dmg potential is on two distinct points on a line plot, indicating an uninhabited midpoint. This would indicate that dmg is either high (good) or low (bad), which just isn't the case. If you look at logs, you can see that dmg output in all content across the board is all over the place, with a large midpoint presence full of players who are putting out adequate amounts of dmg, but not top end numbers.

The recent (and some of the past) changes have been designed to attempt to flood that midpoint with all players from both ends of the spectrum, which seems like a logical course of action on the surface. However, content is always designed with the top end dmg in mind, so this only locks out more and more players from newer content. Letting dmg naturally progress as it always has allows more potential upward movement for ALL players, no matter where they start. Players can either choose to play intuitively and freely with the ability to perform adequately in even trifecta trial runs, or they can engage with the META and use their skills to push out higher dmg at the cost of some creativity and safety. This is more of a "play as you like" option than the current homogenization that is only getting worse with the new patch. It allows for more fluid and versatile engagement for more of the community, rather than locking them out of the top end content unless they run only META setups and comps.

Those of us already in endgame depend on new players being able to progress and move into endgame to keep our numbers up so we can continue to play the content that we all love. We need to incentivize them and make the progression more welcoming and comprehensive and inclusive, rather than reserving those spaces only for those of us who play a certain way. I understand that dmg and healing feels really high right now, but the current content you guys keep releasing necessitates both of those, so please reconsider how you structure this patch before we lose any more people. I'm a diehard player who will probably ride this game until the wheels fall off, but it's disheartening to see the community of long time players so decimated and disheartened.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Kevin

spartaxoxo · July 2022

They don't need to consider it because that's exactly what is happening. They couldn't even allow companions to have like 15k damage or whatever because then they'd out damage too many people. Even players that are like 35K are going to find themselves hardly ever missing out on being top contributers for loot and out damaging most players around them, and that's not enough damage for much of the later released vet DLC stuff to be done at a reasonable pace.

Most players are doing between like 5k to 15k damage, even getting up to 35k there's a notable drop in players that are able to hit those kind of numbers. And it only gets worse from there.

p00tx · July 2022

spartaxoxo wrote: »

They don't need to consider it because that's exactly what is happening. They couldn't even allow companions to have like 15k damage or whatever because then they'd out damage too many people. Even players that are like 35K are going to find themselves hardly ever missing out on being top contributers for loot and out damaging most players around them, and that's not enough damage for much of the later released vet DLC stuff to be done at a reasonable pace.

Most players are doing between like 5k to 15k damage, even getting up to 35k there's a notable drop in players that are able to hit those kind of numbers. And it only gets worse from there.

Those figures are based on a lot of assumptions though. I'm a healer main who does "okay-ish" dmg in content. Nothing to write home about really. I made a new character on EU, which had bottom tier gear scavenged from a few overland critters, no CP, and only one bar of a few skills unlocked. I don't even think I had an ultimate yet. I was able to do roughly 15k-20k dps in a normal dungeon. I think people are grossly underestimating the community.

Necrotech_Master · July 2022

p00tx wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

They don't need to consider it because that's exactly what is happening. They couldn't even allow companions to have like 15k damage or whatever because then they'd out damage too many people. Even players that are like 35K are going to find themselves hardly ever missing out on being top contributers for loot and out damaging most players around them, and that's not enough damage for much of the later released vet DLC stuff to be done at a reasonable pace.

Most players are doing between like 5k to 15k damage, even getting up to 35k there's a notable drop in players that are able to hit those kind of numbers. And it only gets worse from there.

Those figures are based on a lot of assumptions though. I'm a healer main who does "okay-ish" dmg in content. Nothing to write home about really. I made a new character on EU, which had bottom tier gear scavenged from a few overland critters, no CP, and only one bar of a few skills unlocked. I don't even think I had an ultimate yet. I was able to do roughly 15k-20k dps in a normal dungeon. I think people are grossly underestimating the community.

i think this, if you are properly utilizing your skills and have more of a rotation than "spam light attack" you should be able to get to 15-20k dps pretty easy

spamming a light attack should put someone at 5k dps (such as a tank doesnt have a lot of offense oriented skills)

spartaxoxo · July 2022

p00tx wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

They don't need to consider it because that's exactly what is happening. They couldn't even allow companions to have like 15k damage or whatever because then they'd out damage too many people. Even players that are like 35K are going to find themselves hardly ever missing out on being top contributers for loot and out damaging most players around them, and that's not enough damage for much of the later released vet DLC stuff to be done at a reasonable pace.

Most players are doing between like 5k to 15k damage, even getting up to 35k there's a notable drop in players that are able to hit those kind of numbers. And it only gets worse from there.

Those figures are based on a lot of assumptions though. I'm a healer main who does "okay-ish" dmg in content. Nothing to write home about really. I made a new character on EU, which had bottom tier gear scavenged from a few overland critters, no CP, and only one bar of a few skills unlocked. I don't even think I had an ultimate yet. I was able to do roughly 15k-20k dps in a normal dungeon. I think people are grossly underestimating the community.

The companion figure isn't though. They said in a stream that the reason they didn't want to give them more than their current damage is so they weren't outcompeting the average player for a slot in groups, resulting in people being kicked from groups. You probably know more about what you were doing than average players, you can't just say I had this gear set or the other (which bottom tier gear anyway?) And think it applies broadly. The developers wouldn't be taking this sort of drastic action if it wasn't for the fact that people hit these huge walls when increasing their DPS. And they talked about these walls and that the progression curve needs to become more natural as a reason for doing this.

They want the healthy spread you describe but they don't have it. This game is very floor heavy in terms of dps.

Troodon80 · July 2022

p00tx wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

They don't need to consider it because that's exactly what is happening. They couldn't even allow companions to have like 15k damage or whatever because then they'd out damage too many people. Even players that are like 35K are going to find themselves hardly ever missing out on being top contributers for loot and out damaging most players around them, and that's not enough damage for much of the later released vet DLC stuff to be done at a reasonable pace.

Most players are doing between like 5k to 15k damage, even getting up to 35k there's a notable drop in players that are able to hit those kind of numbers. And it only gets worse from there.

Those figures are based on a lot of assumptions though. I'm a healer main who does "okay-ish" dmg in content. Nothing to write home about really. I made a new character on EU, which had bottom tier gear scavenged from a few overland critters, no CP, and only one bar of a few skills unlocked. I don't even think I had an ultimate yet. I was able to do roughly 15k-20k dps in a normal dungeon. I think people are grossly underestimating the community.

Problem is, you're coming from a different region/server complete with all the knowledge you had on that other server (PC-NA). I did a similar thing when I made a fresh character on PC-NA with no CP and rubbish gear I collected along the way (not even set pieces), and I was getting over 20k DPS. But I'm making good use of my GCDs, got something of a rotation where I know what I'm doing, and getting reasonably high CPM between doing abilities and weaving.

The power gap (power share or power spectrum, if you will) is real because people are not doing that. It's not an underestimation, it's a fact. The gap would be much less if people did weave or know how to cast ground AoEs, DoTs, and use spammables. But there's typically a leap between the 5-10k DPS crowd and those doing 25k-30k+. I'm sure there are players within that gap which spreads it along a spectrum, but the only relevant things are the averages at the top and bottom.

If we were to talk about rephrasing something, I would rather ZOS talk more about CPM than their seemingly arbitrary APM. Where CPM, or casts per minute, is something that can actually be calculated and have an impact on DPS, while APM, as per ZOS's definition include any form of movement, jumping, crouching, dodging, etc. which works in other MMOs because those actions would often cancel another action such as an ability cast, but in ESO are largely meaningless. I assume they're using it here because it's what other MMOs use, it's a known term within the MMO community while CPM is less known.

SeaUnicorn · July 2022

It is also not a Power Gap, its Experience Gap. Everyone has access to the same classes and content, knowledge is what separates top 5% and the rest of the community.
There is a top 1% of course that has excellent human abilities (reaction time, ability to learn and adapt extremely fast and so on). And let that top 1% do what they do - ultimate hyper optimal raiding, they are there to be an aspiration for the rest of us. Reward them for being world 1st, reward them for being world best and reward them well! Some lame twitter post where you don't even get their account names right it not the way... They are an aspiration for the rest of us and are a free marketing for ZOS. Reward them for sharing knowledge and strats with the rest of the community! They find ways to play this game that even creators did not think of, this should be celebrated, not bashed with comments like "obscene amount of damage, circumvent GCD, exploit game mechanics".
What ZOS needs to focus on is closure of knowledge gap between inexperienced players and top 5%. You can get to top 5% without any kind of special abilities, you don't need to be young, you don't need to have Schumacher reaction times. All you need is knowledge and reps.
When they do instead is trying to nerf to 1% without understanding that every attempt to do so results in 5% nerf to top 1% and 30% nerf to the rest. And this mentality needs to stop.

xylena_lazarow · July 2022

When will there be consideration for the power gap between randoms and organized comp groups? PvE and PvP.

p00tx · July 2022

SeaUnicorn wrote: »

It is also not a Power Gap, its Experience Gap. Everyone has access to the same classes and content, knowledge is what separates top 5% and the rest of the community.
There is a top 1% of course that has excellent human abilities (reaction time, ability to learn and adapt extremely fast and so on). And let that top 1% do what they do - ultimate hyper optimal raiding, they are there to be an aspiration for the rest of us. Reward them for being world 1st, reward them for being world best and reward them well! Some lame twitter post where you don't even get their account names right it not the way... They are an aspiration for the rest of us and are a free marketing for ZOS. Reward them for sharing knowledge and strats with the rest of the community! They find ways to play this game that even creators did not think of, this should be celebrated, not bashed with comments like "obscene amount of damage, circumvent GCD, exploit game mechanics".
What ZOS needs to focus on is closure of knowledge gap between inexperienced players and top 5%. You can get to top 5% without any kind of special abilities, you don't need to be young, you don't need to have Schumacher reaction times. All you need is knowledge and reps.
When they do instead is trying to nerf to 1% without understanding that every attempt to do so results in 5% nerf to top 1% and 30% nerf to the rest. And this mentality needs to stop.

Freaking A-MEN! Very well said.

Troodon80 · July 2022

SeaUnicorn wrote: »

It is also not a Power Gap, its Experience Gap.

That's just semantics, though. The two are not mutually exclusive. There is a power gap because of an experience gap, but that doesn't mean the power gap, spectrum, or spread isn't there. I agree with the bulk of your post, but "The Gap" (whichever one you wish to refer to) exists and it exists for a multitude of reasons.

Ragnarok0130 · August 2022

Troodon80 wrote: »

SeaUnicorn wrote: »

It is also not a Power Gap, its Experience Gap.

That's just semantics, though. The two are not mutually exclusive. There is a power gap because of an experience gap, but that doesn't mean the power gap, spectrum, or spread isn't there. I agree with the bulk of your post, but "The Gap" (whichever one you wish to refer to) exists and it exists for a multitude of reasons.

True the gap does have a myriad of reasons for existing, but one of the biggest reasons is that ZoS can't patch in knowledge or expertise, one can only get to the next level through study and practice so trying to address it in any way that isn't teaching the floor about the game systems that they weren't introduced to in the first place will fail. This is especially true for update 35. The gap is also there due to how much effort one wishes to put in to improve as many are just happy to log in, explore, and quest overland.

Being that Knowledge/experience=Power in ESO, if ZoS is really serious about accessibility they need to create an in depth combat/class/gear tutorial that actually teaches lower level players how to play and gear for their desired role including unintended game systems such as LA weaving. It would be helpful if ZoS had dummies out in the world for them to practice on too since most players probably don't have trial dummies in their homes if they're not running group content regularly. Of course the potential outcome is that the knowledge won't be utilized because that segment of the player base is happy to play the way they want with their non-meta builds, and since Overland isn't challenging them there's really no need for them to change unless they desire to run group content but it would help new players who do want to progress and "git gud".