Sorry, but as I said in your other post, their changes have way more in common with a balancing pass that directly compares it to Haunting Curse than they do dots.

We're both making assumptions here because they didn't say what standard they used, but the skill clearly falls into that category rather than an aoe dot.

Again, not saying I agree with the changes or direction, but I think it'd help your argument more to focus on what's probably happening.

Anyway, fingers crossed for week 5. They said more changes to come for Sorc and Warden in the recent post, that's a good sign seeing as Arctic Blast was already brought to an amazing state. It's only up from here.

Mr_Stach wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Sorry, but as I said in your other post, their changes have way more in common with a balancing pass that directly compares it to Haunting Curse than they do dots.

We're both making assumptions here because they didn't say what standard they used, but the skill clearly falls into that category rather than an aoe dot.

Again, not saying I agree with the changes or direction, but I think it'd help your argument more to focus on what's probably happening.

Anyway, fingers crossed for week 5. They said more changes to come for Sorc and Warden in the recent post, that's a good sign seeing as Arctic Blast was already brought to an amazing state. It's only up from here.

I'm always cautious whenever Zos mentions Adjustments and Tweaks, we're getting pretty close to the wire when these launch and I really want them to be good and the Arctic Blast change IS good, which generally concerns me because it's still overloaded, a Burst Heal, Instant Stun, and a Good DoT for PvE, we'll see if it lasts, or if this is another Rubberband effect where it's going to come back to smack us in a Patch or Two.

And you're 100% right on Haunting Curse I did a bit of a comparison on how Scorch and it's morphs compare to Blastbones and Haunting Curse Respectively on a different post and it's kind of interesting:

So Balancing Shalks is weird you need to look how it compares to similar skills. Deep Fissure more or less correlates with BB sure, but Sub Assault lines up with Haunting Curse. as it currently stands on Live Servers. Now if we make both of them launch like Sub on live with a 3 & 6 second interval Deep Fissure will out damage Sub Assault just by itself due to wardens having 10% increased Magic Damage. If anything Sub Assault would need a little something to stay afloat.

To continue my mini rant, if you want to make Shalks Roughly the same damage as Haunting Curse, and make it more balanced, I would nerf it by 8% to bring it closer to the 5998 damage provided below. I also think Haunting Curse's Timing and Damage is what they based the Nerfs on for U35 Shalks on in the first place.

U33 Numbers for Comparison (Damage difference between U33 & U44 is almost nonexistent)

Blighted Blastbones 3600 (2.5 sec + leap)
Deep Fissure 3564 (3s)
Haunting Curse 5998 (2758 AoE) (first explosion 3.5s second after 8.5s)
Subterranean Assault 3240 + 3240 = 6480 (first burst 3s second at 6s)

These numbers are curtesy of Skinny Cheeks by the way, he was super cool and did some sharing.

Agreed. Arctic definitely seems overloaded at the moment. The damage is what we really wanted for the skill. But they could shift either the burst heal or the stun to another skill at a later point provided if the skill is too much.

Right but haunting implies ghost and ghosts stick to their targets. Scorch implies fire, and fire spreads, so obviously this is why scorch deals magic damage and since magic is less scary than being haunted by a ghost, it makes sense that it is both harder to use and deals less damage.

Does that not make sense to you? Are you suggesting that the "masters of ice" have a skill named "scorch" that deals frost damage?!

In all seriousness, I'm worried about them dropping new changes to our class this late. I'd ALMOST rather them not do anything and take a patch to figure out how they can realize an actual vision for warden and then balance it so it's not clearly OP like the Magdks and stamsorcs were.

I'm really worried that what they do will be:

- not what we asked for
- somehow another nerf to one of our most useful skills
- too powerful and not balanced
- continue to make no sense and ruin any sense of cohesive vision
- all of the above

There's no way we can properly test anything they dump on us on Monday before this patch goes live. I'd really rather not go from worst class to OP, see the forums flooded with complaints about us, and then we subsequently get nerfed back to here after only 1 patch.

Mr_Stach wrote: »

Aldoss wrote: »

Right but haunting implies ghost and ghosts stick to their targets. Scorch implies fire, and fire spreads, so obviously this is why scorch deals magic damage and since magic is less scary than being haunted by a ghost, it makes sense that it is both harder to use and deals less damage.

Does that not make sense to you? Are you suggesting that the "masters of ice" have a skill named "scorch" that deals frost damage?!

In all seriousness, I'm worried about them dropping new changes to our class this late. I'd ALMOST rather them not do anything and take a patch to figure out how they can realize an actual vision for warden and then balance it so it's not clearly OP like the Magdks and stamsorcs were.

I'm really worried that what they do will be:

- not what we asked for
- somehow another nerf to one of our most useful skills
- too powerful and not balanced
- continue to make no sense and ruin any sense of cohesive vision
- all of the above

There's no way we can properly test anything they dump on us on Monday before this patch goes live. I'd really rather not go from worst class to OP, see the forums flooded with complaints about us, and then we subsequently get nerfed back to here after only 1 patch.

That was so much mental gymnastics, I thought I was reading a Dev Comment on Warden Skills being reworked again.

Icy Aura has been reworked. It now turns every warden skill into a 6 second delayed cast. Given how much offensive nature this gives the class, warden has had its damage and healing output nerfed by 33%.

MentalxHammer wrote: »

In week 1 of the PTS scorch had its duration and damage nerfed to operate more like a damage over time ability. In week 3 of the PTS, AOE or non “sticky” dots were improved to lessen their duration and increase their damage over time. However, scorch is still being balanced in line with the intentions of the week 1 changes. Scorch should not receive a damage nerf or an increase in duration by the logic implemented in week 3 for AOE dots.

Honestly, they should just revert the changes to scorch. Warden is finally looking like it might be in a decent spot, but will be extremely ineffective with their hallmark damage skill seeing such a clunky nerf.

I actually hate Scorch as a skill despite Warden being my main. That being said, having a skill that require aiming and within a certain range work with such a long wind up is not a good idea. If that’s the direction, then they should “cut the umbilical cord” to use a metaphor and have it be a true ranged AoE. Better yet, rework it so it isn’t as clunky to use. Failing that, just revert changes.

Here is one idea:

Deep Fissure:

Target an area where after 2 seconds 3 Shalks burst out of the ground in a circle dealing X Frost Damage to all enemies hit. The Shalks remain for a further 3 seconds snaring enemies in the area by 30% before shattering and dealing a further X Frost Damage to all nearby enemies.

Sub Assault:

After, 2 seconds 3 Shalks burst out of the ground dealing X Bleed Damage to all enemies hit. The Shalks remain for a further 4 seconds and release a shockwave every 2 seconds that summons jagged spikes from the ground around them that deals a further X Bleed Damage to all enemies hit.

With this you now have a ranged one and one that keep its closer range. Also, you have changed Shalks to Frost which is what most Warden players want. I don’t want this, but if most players ask for this change then ZoS should do it.

As for Breach, I would recommend sticking it on another ability such as Flies baseline. Or perhaps a rework of Frozen Device. Chilled status actually benefits Stamden’s too but they aren’t really incentivised to slot one as of now.

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

MentalxHammer wrote: »

In week 1 of the PTS scorch had its duration and damage nerfed to operate more like a damage over time ability. In week 3 of the PTS, AOE or non “sticky” dots were improved to lessen their duration and increase their damage over time. However, scorch is still being balanced in line with the intentions of the week 1 changes. Scorch should not receive a damage nerf or an increase in duration by the logic implemented in week 3 for AOE dots.

Honestly, they should just revert the changes to scorch. Warden is finally looking like it might be in a decent spot, but will be extremely ineffective with their hallmark damage skill seeing such a clunky nerf.

I actually hate Scorch as a skill despite Warden being my main. That being said, having a skill that require aiming and within a certain range work with such a long wind up is not a good idea. If that’s the direction, then they should “cut the umbilical cord” to use a metaphor and have it be a true ranged AoE. Better yet, rework it so it isn’t as clunky to use. Failing that, just revert changes.

honestly i think how it currently works is fine, however, i don't think it should be the only legit way to play warden dps either. i think one of the morphs of scorch should have a different playstyle.

I actually wouldn’t really know what to do with one of the morphs for a different play style. I don’t like Scorch itself but I like the idea of frozen spikes rising up and then exploding, having them as ice bugs is basically the same thing outside of aesthetics. I suppose the Frost Shalks could have a bunch of icicles on their bodies or something. Maybe instead of the Shalks exploding they could ‘shoot’ their icicles on their backs in an AoE before burrowing away. Although, maybe that should be the Bleed one, and the Frost one could summon icicles in an AoE.

Right now, this ability is offering too much offensive nature for the Warden, allowing them to line up their burst perfectly with Scorch to remove counter play. By increasing the stack count required, there should be less of a guarantee with this combination and require more reactive play from the caster, while the increased duration of tracking helps also reduce the ease of counter play by backing off for 1 second from the Warden to completely avoid the stun.

Unless ZOS has reversed themselves, they don't want Scorch to line up nicely with the stun. Which might suggest that the price for the earlier stun is longer Scorch timing.

chessalavakia_ESO wrote: »

Right now, this ability is offering too much offensive nature for the Warden, allowing them to line up their burst perfectly with Scorch to remove counter play. By increasing the stack count required, there should be less of a guarantee with this combination and require more reactive play from the caster, while the increased duration of tracking helps also reduce the ease of counter play by backing off for 1 second from the Warden to completely avoid the stun.

Unless ZOS has reversed themselves, they don't want Scorch to line up nicely with the stun. Which might suggest that the price for the earlier stun is longer Scorch timing.

if they think that is bad then they really didn't look at dk's burst lol.

prof_doom wrote: »

seventyfive wrote: »

On the Live server, Subterranean Assault does a 3240 x 2 = 6480 base damage over 6 seconds.

Dawnbreaker of Smiting does 3600 + 4314 = 7914 base damage over 6 seconds.

A cheap stamina ability with a base cost of 2066 does (6480 / 7914 = ) approximately 82% of the damage of an ultimate that is widely popular in pvp - over the same duration.

Is is absolutely overloaded on the live server, especially since the first hit is delayed 3 seconds instead of instant, and delayed damage is king in pvp.

1. Subterranean Assault only does 6480 damage if both rounds hit, which isn't a guarantee. Dawnbreaker is going to do the full damage to anyone that was in the cone.
2. Dawnbreaker of smiting also stuns.
3. As far as I know, even with Shalks, nobody thinks Warden is a top tier PVP class, so clearly it's not that big of a deal.

Let's not forget about the passives. Dawnbreaker has a great stun, and will let you confirm kills. Slotting it increases the damage of all your skills. Also it does 20% against vampires and WWs.

People use Dawnbreaker because of all of its utility and the passives that increases its damage.

Slayer: Increases your Weapon and Spell Damage by 3% for each Fighters Guild ability slotted.

Skilled Hunter: Your Fighters Guild abilities deal an additional 10% damage. This bonus doubles against player Vampires and Werewolves.

On the other hand. Shalks is very easy to predict and Dodge or Block. Also lower skilled players tend to miss with it anyways.

seventyfive wrote: »

On the Live server, Subterranean Assault does a 3240 x 2 = 6480 base damage over 6 seconds.

Dawnbreaker of Smiting does 3600 + 4314 = 7914 base damage over 6 seconds.

A cheap stamina ability with a base cost of 2066 does (6480 / 7914 = ) approximately 82% of the damage of an ultimate that is widely popular in pvp - over the same duration.

Is is absolutely overloaded on the live server, especially since the first hit is delayed 3 seconds instead of instant, and delayed damage is king in pvp.

Scorch is telegraphed and can easily be dodged, blocked, or simply evaded with good positioning. It is far from over performing. Compare this ability to blastbones, blastbones has the exact same base damage as dawnbreaker of smiting and can’t be countered just by sidestepping or moving to your opponents flank. It’s universally known that Warden is underperforming, if anything scorch needs to have its damage increased to be in line with blastbones.

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

I am scared of what might happen to this class and ability as well come Monday.

Ideally, they will just revert all of the changes and call it a day but we all know that things seldom work out that nicely.

all we can do is wait.