Scorch Change Alternative

Nser · July 2022

We were close, sooo close..
Reading the patch notes on Warden I did surprisingly see alot of last PTS feedback getting added this time around, gives me hope for real. But then I read the Scorch changes and had to come down from whatever pink cloud i was sitting on.

Taken directly from the Notes:
Scorch:
This ability and its morphs now last for 10 seconds in total, detonating once after 4 seconds and again 6 seconds after that, rather than only once every 3 seconds.
Reduced the damage by approximately 8%.
Increased the cost to 3240, up from 2430.
Subterranean Assault (morph): This morph now reduces the time it takes for each damage event to occur, causing the damage to occur after 3 seconds and 5 seconds after that.

This results in Deep fissure going off on 4s and again at 10s + major/minor pen, while subassault does 3s and again at 8s

Gave it a try but it feels awful in the flow of combat especially for vets of the class.
Since Scorch is a straight line ahead, it truely impairs how you can move without risking your shalks missing. 4s is alot of time to be tracking a target in your line of sight let alone the 6 seconds afterwards for the second shalk.

My (unfinished) solution, will update with feedback:

Scorch base morph: Change the range from 20x7 to 8 meter RADIUS, so it being around you.

Scorch base morph: goes off every 4s and 8s
Deep Fissure adds the penetration it does currently.
Sub assaullt goes off at 3s and 6s + increase damage by 8% to make up for what the base morph lost

xylena_lazarow · July 2022

I don't understand why they're unwilling to make one (or both) of these morphs into Frost damage. It would make as much sense as Magic damage, which is flavored as damaging the enemy's soul in most other parts of the game. They could flavor it as something like fossilized bugs that explode into a flash-freezing mist. If they want different elements, Bleed would make sense and fit the toolkit much better than Poison.

Mr_Stach · July 2022

Nser wrote: »

Scorch base morph: Change the range from 20x7 to 10 meter RADIUS, so it being around you.

So like a big spiky donut, got it.

I mean, I think that Scorch's AoE is pretty Iconic at this point I wouldn't mess with the Area it Covers. Although since it would be a 10m Radius functionally this would be a huge area of Shalks popping out of the grounds, it would be as large as hurricane at its largest size. Which is massive for a Burst skill that you don't need to aim.

CapnCrunchYT · July 2022

They really need to revert the deep fissure change, since this is a PVP morph (you breach is provided by the tank in pve) you need to be able to line up a burst combo (pvp is all about burst) and with the extra 1 second on the initial beetle burst it doesnt line up anymore with warden burst combos. The 2nd time beetles come out is just useless in pvp and can be removed for a cost reduction on the skill.

Nser · July 2022

Arctic being 6 meter radius basicly makes warden melee by default.
If 10 meters shalks is too large, 8 meters is deffo a sweetspot.
4s delayed burst that needs to be aimed is just horrible. If the goal is less micromanaging more user friendly, then radius over reach is the way to go

TPishek · July 2022

They could just leave it alone, it works really well how it does on live.

WrathOfInnos · July 2022

TPishek wrote: »

They could just leave it alone, it works really well how it does on live.

I agree. The new 8s timer does not well with any rotation, and both that and the 10s ruin the cadence of warden.

If they must change something, make subterranean go off at 3s and 5s (with damage reduced to balance), so that it can be easily timed with all the new DoT durations of 10, 15, 20 and 30.

Deep Fissure should stay at 3s because that is an iconic aspect of Warden DPS. It still works well with 15s and 30s rotations, and I'm hoping to see Winter's Revenge return to 12s (a multiple of 3).

Aldoss · July 2022

The only acceptable reason to force a secondary, longer delayed hit of shalks is if it the second hit does SIGNIFICANTLY more damage.

I'd accept nothing less than 33% boost to its raw damage.

If that's not allowed, then it needs to go.

I spent a good 2 hours dueling on the pts yesterday. Shalks is pathetic. It misses nearly 1/3rd of all casts and hits for less than any other delayed burst in the game.

On a max spell damage and crit dmg build, 18k pen, shalks crits for ~7-8k 35% of the time when sea serpents coil is active. When it's not active, it crits for 6k. When it doesn't crit, it hits for a whopping 3.5k.

Meanwhile my target was critting me for 12k purifying lights on a similar set up and nailing me with unblockable javelin stuns. Average non crit purifying light was ~5k.

These nerfs are a joke. I'm expecting nothing short of a full about face next week. Otherwise I'll likely not be back.

ESO_Nightingale · July 2022

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

TPishek wrote: »

They could just leave it alone, it works really well how it does on live.

I agree. The new 8s timer does not well with any rotation, and both that and the 10s ruin the cadence of warden.

If they must change something, make subterranean go off at 3s and 5s (with damage reduced to balance), so that it can be easily timed with all the new DoT durations of 10, 15, 20 and 30.

Deep Fissure should stay at 3s because that is an iconic aspect of Warden DPS. It still works well with 15s and 30s rotations, and I'm hoping to see Winter's Revenge return to 12s (a multiple of 3).

I tested yesterday. Wr is 12 seconds again. Notes are messed up.

Fissure should really also just be frost damage too.

MashmalloMan · July 2022

I'll just add what I think they should do with the morphs imo:

Scorch

X Frost Damage after 3s and 6s delay, applies minor breach for 5s.
- Deals Frost Damage instead of Magic Damage.

Sub Assault

X Bleed Damage after 3s and 6s delay, applies minor breach for 5s.
- Costs stamina and now deals bleed damage. Deals 15% more damage per hit.

Deep Fissure

X Frost Damage after 3s and 6s delay, applies minor and major breach for 10s.
- Additionally applies major breach and doubles the duration of the debuffs from 5s to 10s.

These changes are with the -8% damage nerf from PTS week 1 in mind.

Mr_Stach · July 2022

MashmalloMan wrote: »

I'll just add what I think they should do with the morphs imo:

Scorch
X Frost Damage after 3s and 6s delay, applies minor breach for 5s.
Deals Frost Damage instead of Magic Damage.

Sub Assault
X Bleed Damage after 3s and 6s delay, applies minor breach for 5s.
Costs stamina and now deals bleed damage. Deals 15% more damage per hit.

Deep Fissure
X Frost Damage after 3s and 6s delay, applies minor and major breach for 10s.
Additionally applies major breach and doubles the duration of the debuffs from 5s to 10s.

These changes are with the -8% damage nerf from PTS week 1 in mind.

Honestly not bad changes, I really think that Zos needs to implement a Bleed Passive for Warden and really lean into that damage style.

Aldoss · July 2022

Warden is clearly a frost mage/bleed bruiser. Finalizing this would actually start warden on a path towards having a true vision.

Right now we're a mish-mash of after thoughts flimsily taped together, but apparently still with "too much offensive nature".

ESO_Nightingale · July 2022

Aldoss wrote: »

Warden is clearly a frost mage/bleed bruiser. Finalizing this would actually start warden on a path towards having a true vision.

Right now we're a mish-mash of after thoughts flimsily taped together, but apparently still with "too much offensive nature".

agreeeeeeeeeeeeeeeed. but i would say with mash's ideas you'd still use sub assault nearly all the time in pve. major breach is strictly worse unless in pvp. also sustain hemorrhage is huge. i'd even drop the major or minor breach gain for more sustain or some other effect that isn't strictly worse than sub's better sustain and damage in pve.

MashmalloMan · July 2022

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Aldoss wrote: »

Warden is clearly a frost mage/bleed bruiser. Finalizing this would actually start warden on a path towards having a true vision.

Right now we're a mish-mash of after thoughts flimsily taped together, but apparently still with "too much offensive nature".

agreeeeeeeeeeeeeeeed. but i would say with mash's ideas you'd still use sub assault nearly all the time in pve. major breach is strictly worse unless in pvp. also sustain hemorrhage is huge. i'd even drop the major or minor breach gain for more sustain or some other effect that isn't strictly worse than sub's better sustain and damage in pve.

Definitely not an end-all-be-all fix, but as with most suggestions I make, it was done to be as simple as possible to get things course corrected. ZOS takes too long to make big changes and minor tweaks like I suggested feel more likely to get addressed quicker.

The listed 15% on stam is not a 15% buff really, it's 5% because of the Frost passive. The change I suggest closes the gap on both morphs so it's not as polarizing for both PVE and PVP while still carving out an identity for both. 9k Penetration is too good to pass up in PVP, 1 extra cast(live) is too good to pass up in PVE - the decision is made for you.

Thats bad morph choices imo. The PTS giving -2s to Stam is even worse as it doesn't take into consideration that Mag gets +10% damage which makes it just feel like you're giving up -9k pen for nothing.

You have a good point about sustain, but in terms of damage potential - 1 morph of any skill is always going to be stronger than the other when you look at it under the scope of PVE, this is further doubled down on when dealing with major/minor buffs/debuffs like how Sub Assault beats out Deep Fissure on live despite Deep Fissure having 10% more damage and 9k more pen.

If we're thinking more complicated, like long term. They should have the same damage potential, but behave completely differently to offer more build variety than just Stam vs Mag or PVE vs PVP - like how Haunting vs Prey is. Okay example because Prey isn't really used in PVP and Haunting isn't used in PVE now that non pet sorcs are dead, but you get my drift.

MashmalloMan · July 2022

Aldoss wrote: »

Warden is clearly a frost mage/bleed bruiser. Finalizing this would actually start warden on a path towards having a true vision.

Right now we're a mish-mash of after thoughts flimsily taped together, but apparently still with "too much offensive nature".

Easy fix.

Remove +10% magic damage for +10% bleed damage.
Change class skills from poison to bleed and magic to frost.

Give them the DK treatment.. while we're at it, do a pass on Sorc, get rid of Magic damage across the board for Physical/Shock. I'm fine with 5% instead of 10%, but give Sorc a unique passive like DK's that gives them a reason to prioritize Physical and Shock damage like the Combustion passive.

Whiskey_JG · July 2022

I personally like that Shalks attack in a straight line. Tbh we already have enough AOE skills, we dont need another.

Given that damage of Sub Assault has been nerfed I propose the following:

-Give shalks longer range....if any of you have tried last boss of vDSR you will know that most of the time shalks don't hit the boss. This is true for other situations where you are out of range of the boss.

-Give shalks a mini mechanic to make it more interesting on the player. For example if you manage to reapply sub assault exactly when the 2nd cast hits the enemy, you get a damage buff OR Empower.....something on those lines.

However, overall I think wardens need an identity overhaul, stamina morphs should deal bleed damage whilst magicka morphs should deal frost damage.

Unified_Gaming · July 2022

The issue at the moment is that either morph of Scorch is basically pvp or pve (stam for pve and magic for pvp). The timer changes also make it hard for long time users to use and build around. There is also an issue that the current morphs' buffs/damage need to benefit both areas of the game in a similar way which they don't reinforcing morph for pvp or pve. Warden also has innate issues with lack of stuns/useful mechanics to stun. To address Scorch and fix some of these issues I would suggest something like this:

Scorch - Deals magic damage after 3s and 6s delay. The first hit sets targets off balance and applies Scorch's Bite for 6 secohds. If the target is hit by a scorch whilst afflicted with Scorch's Bite then the bite eplodes dealing X damage to the target and inflicting minor breach reducing their armour. This can occur every 6 seconds.

Subterranean assault - converts into a stamina ability. Deals Bleed Damage after 3s and 6s delay. The first hit now applies Scorch's Hematoma which now causes enemies hit to bleed dealing X Damage over 6 seconds. If the target is hit by a Scorch whilst afflicted with Scorch's Venom then the bleed instantly explodes doing X damage to enemies within 6m and applying major breach. This can occur every 6 seconds.

(Deep fissure)
Frozen Fissure - converts this to a Frost Damage ability. Deals Frost Damage after 3s and 6s. The first hit now applies Scorch's Freeze which slowlys freezes the target snaring them by 10% every second up to 30% for 6 seconds. If the target is hit by a Scorch whilst afflicted with Scorch's Freeze then the freeze intensifies, dealing X damage to the target, applying major breach and stunning them for 3 seconds. If the target can't be stunned then they are afflicted with major breach and take X% increased damage. This can occur every 6 seconds.

I'd then suggest lowering the initial hits of Scorch to maybe a spamable damage and loading the burst/bonus damage into the scorch's Bite effects effect echoing similar burst skills like power of the light and spectral bow which take 5-6 seconds to charge. This would reward landing consecutive hits to trigger the effect/s and also makes the double cast worth while.

The hope is that both apply similar debuffs but the stamina morph is more dot and aoe focused (good for dps and trash in pve or aoe dumping in pvp) and the magicka morph has more crowd control and benefits from warden bonus damage (good for tanks in pve and wardens in pvp who want a more reliable stun.) All morphs also beenfit from off balance allowing for a pseudo stun regardless of choice helping alleviate Warden's lack of offensive stuns.

Thoughts are welcome!

Mr_Stach · July 2022

Unified_Gaming wrote: »

The issue at the moment is that either morph of Scorch is basically pvp or pve (stam for pve and magic for pvp). The timer changes also make it hard for long time users to use and build around. There is also an issue that the current morphs' buffs/damage need to benefit both areas of the game in a similar way which they don't reinforcing morph for pvp or pve. Warden also has innate issues with lack of stuns/useful mechanics to stun. To address Scorch and fix some of these issues I would suggest something like this:

Scorch - Deals magic damage after 3s and 6s delay. The first hit sets targets off balance and applies Scorch's Bite for 6 secohds. If the target is hit by a scorch whilst afflicted with Scorch's Bite then the bite eplodes dealing X damage to the target and inflicting minor breach reducing their armour. This can occur every 6 seconds.

Subterranean assault - converts into a stamina ability. Deals Bleed Damage after 3s and 6s delay. The first hit now applies Scorch's Venom which now causes enemies hit to bleed dealing X Damage over 6 seconds. If the target is hit by a Scorch whilst afflicted with Scorch's Venom then the bleed instantly explodes doing X damage to enemies within 6m and applying major breach. This can occur every 6 seconds.

(Deep fissure)
Frozen Fissure - converts this to a Frost Damage ability. Deals Frost Damage after 3s and 6s. The first hit now applies Scorch's Freeze which slowlys freezes the target snaring them by 10% every second up to 30% for 6 seconds. If the target is hit by a Scorch whilst afflicted with Scorch's Freeze then the freeze intensifies, dealing X damage to the target, applying major breach and stunning them for 3 seconds. If the target can't be stunned then they are afflicted with major breach and take X% increased damage. This can occur every 6 seconds.

I'd then suggest lowering the initial hits of Scorch to maybe a spamable damage and loading the burst/bonus damage into the scorch's Bite effects effect echoing similar burst skills like power of the light and spectral bow which take 5-6 seconds to charge. This would reward landing consecutive hits to trigger the effect/s and also makes the double cast worth while.

The hope is that both apply similar debuffs but the stamina morph is more dot and aoe focused (good for dps and trash in pve or aoe dumping in pvp) and the magicka morph has more crowd control and benefits from warden bonus damage (good for tanks in pve and wardens in pvp who want a more reliable stun.) All morphs also beenfit from off balance allowing for a pseudo stun regardless of choice helping alleviate Warden's lack of offensive stuns.

Thoughts are welcome!

Interesting things here, going to get technical for a second on terms, if we are switching to Bleed Damage, I would avoid using terms that people will associate with Poison, such as "Venom", I would probably use Blood related things such as Hematoma, an injury that causes blood to collect and pool under the skin (this is what a regular old bruise is, nothing crazy). This Idea could be stretched that the Scorch is injecting the Target with Infected Blood on Hit, which bursts on the second.

I also like the multi purpose, Bleed is AoE, Frost is Stun Focused, but requires that second hit.

Some fun Ideas, hitting the second frost for the stun might be frustrating for some, but definitely doable.