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If most of the endgame raiders go because of update 35, Who will help the casual players do trials?
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EdmondDontes✭✭✭✭✭
✭Prof_Bawbag wrote: »EdmondDontes wrote: »Prof_Bawbag wrote: »EdmondDontes wrote: »Prof_Bawbag wrote: »Ragnarok0130 wrote: »Prof_Bawbag wrote: »Ragnarok0130 wrote: »I see so many under 800 cp players. So I suspect that if some veterans quit, then they will just be replaced.
The issue with that is the "brain drain" where the raiding knowledge base and practical expertise to train new raiders is severely reduced so people have to learn all over again via trial and error (no pun intended). This happened with Morrowind, and took several years to recover from and the current situation looks like a repeat of Morrowind. But hey at least we can choose the Morrowind theme music on the title screen to get the full nostalgia effect.
God forbid people have to learn something on their own. How have we as humans managed to evolve in all aspects of life from the year dot.
The mechanics are static, they rarely if ever change. You're giving this game waaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much credit. As i said in the post above, there are way more complex games than ESO. In the grand scheme of things, ESO is quite easy. It doesn't need hand holding. People require hand holding because it's available to them. Folk will always take the easy option. I do too.
When this game first released, who held your hand? My hand, the other guy's hand? No one. Absolutely no one. Yet here we all are clearing static mechanics left, right and centre.
Most people have heard the saying “Only a fool learns from his own mistakes. The wise man learns from the mistakes of others.” Groups will progress far more quickly and efficiently if they have veteran people that can teach new players what to do because they themselves have been there before rather than if new players need to relearn everything from scratch through their own trial and error which typically has an attrition rate where people get burned out and leave raiding because the task seems insurmountable if the group in its entirety is new. A progression cadence where small successes are earned at regular intervals while learning not only keeps new end game players engaged and prevented from becoming discouraged, but they learn better overall because they can see why something is bad by asking someone who came before.
Beating one's head against a wall repeatedly while learning a new trial from scratch is we do that every time a new trial comes out, but that task is best done once a player has been acclimated to raiding and sees the larger picture of general raiding mechanics so they are more likely to be able to adapt on the fly. If the vast majority of end game players left ESO, raiding will take a huge hit and would essentially have to rebuild from the ground up which won't make raiding more accessible for anyone because existing groups of raiders will get more exclusive to clear new and existing content instead of opening their doors to teach new people like they are doing right now. I can't overstate the importance of having a knowledgeable veteran raid leads who can teach new players in an understanding manner as the best way to assuage new players fears about being new to raiding and "messing up" in a trial. Not knowing what to do is perhaps the single most voiced fear from casual players here on the forums when it comes to exploring trials. Overall having a healthy population of veteran raiders is better overall for that portion of the game.
I completely understand what you're trying to say, but i disagree with the sentiment behind it.
1) You're basing your entire argument around anecdotal evidence
2) Placing too much importance on a very, very small fraction of players
Point one, I haven't heard many people at all saying they're going to jack the game in. So who is right, me or you? After all, my personal experience of there being a mass exodus of vet players does not align with yours at all. With each and every major update, we get the same story spouted on here ad nauseam, without fail. Yet the game goes on, and most folk remain.
Point two, this forum is rarely if ever indicative of the player base at large. Most folk simply don't care enough. Reddit, here and other forums related to ESO are simply populated by a very small vocal minority. This gives some people the impression that they aren't expendable. They're too important to lose. Because they assume, wrongly may i add, that the game only works because some like-minded folk on here tell them so. When they hear it enough, they begin to believe the hype. According to this forum, we all do vet trials, we all do it for scores. Nope, it's only within threads like this that people actually give a damn.
You just need to look at the leaderboards in-game to see my point. It's the same people week in, week out on those leaderboards.The groups rarely change. So where are all these new players you're mentioning? I don't see them. Using your logic, and because you deem it a very significant part of the game, surely we'd be seeing new players commonly being rotated in and out of these groups? It borders on a closed community. I'm not knocking them, but you're on here arguing it's quite the opposite when anyone that can be bothered checking it out for themselves can see it's anything but what you're attempting to make it out to be. Some leaderboards aren't even full. And the ones that are, it's not uncommon to see a grp that just ran the content just because, and unwittingly ended up on that leaderboard.
Except most folks haven't remained. Most have moved on. Less than 1/4 of my friends list logs on anymore. And of those that still do log on most rarely play more than a few hours/week now. Most players that were here since the beginning have already moved on or just quit gaming until something worth playing comes along. ZOS keeps taking ESO in a direction that is company oriented, not player oriented and it's really starting to show.
Again, it's just yet more anecdotal evidence.
Not many people stick around the same game for 7 years. I've left the game umpteen times. Once for around 2 years. Nothing to do with anything other than burnout. When reaching that point, things in game do become more irritating such as crashes, DC', changes etc etc so i'm not actually rubbishing their reasons for leaving. But the underlying problem is burn out. Aye, 7 years mate, I'd expect a number of folk to have left for horizons new. I'm actually more surprised at finding people who have stuck around for that entire 7 years. It does happen, but most folk do eventually take a break or just move on.
Sometimes games evolve and they do leave some players behind, but there's enough things to be getting on with. I experienced this with Football manager. I loved that game, but it became too time-consuming once they began making tactics etc more complicated and convoluted. So i moved on.
Nothing anecdotal about it. My friends that don't log on anymore have all stated clearly why they don't play anymore, and I'm repeating the reasons right here right now.
You are basing this on your own personal experience, so yes, it's the very definition of anecdotal. I'm in numerous large guilds on both NA and EU, and i've seen a grand total of 2 people even mention they're leaving. Most of these guilds have 400+ members. I have simply never seen what you're seeing. So it depends in which circles you socialise in.
If i was in a small guild that was solely focused on dps and meta, maybe i would be agreeing with you. These sort of guilds are nothing more than your standard echo chamber. I've been in enough of them to know. When surrounded by like-minded people it's easy to think the majority think that way, but it's usually quite the opposite.
So we're clear, i am not seeing what you are seeing. If i never ventured on here, I wouldn't even know it was a major issue for some people, and i'm in some very large and active guilds on both servers.
The casual player doesn't notice how much things have changed and are continuing to change, so they don't care. That's the difference. We are all members of some large guilds. Ask the GM of those larger guilds if player retention is getting easier or harder.Edited by EdmondDontes on July 25, 2022 9:57AM2 -
Prof_Bawbag✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭EdmondDontes wrote: »Prof_Bawbag wrote: »EdmondDontes wrote: »Prof_Bawbag wrote: »EdmondDontes wrote: »Prof_Bawbag wrote: »Ragnarok0130 wrote: »Prof_Bawbag wrote: »Ragnarok0130 wrote: »I see so many under 800 cp players. So I suspect that if some veterans quit, then they will just be replaced.
The issue with that is the "brain drain" where the raiding knowledge base and practical expertise to train new raiders is severely reduced so people have to learn all over again via trial and error (no pun intended). This happened with Morrowind, and took several years to recover from and the current situation looks like a repeat of Morrowind. But hey at least we can choose the Morrowind theme music on the title screen to get the full nostalgia effect.
God forbid people have to learn something on their own. How have we as humans managed to evolve in all aspects of life from the year dot.
The mechanics are static, they rarely if ever change. You're giving this game waaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much credit. As i said in the post above, there are way more complex games than ESO. In the grand scheme of things, ESO is quite easy. It doesn't need hand holding. People require hand holding because it's available to them. Folk will always take the easy option. I do too.
When this game first released, who held your hand? My hand, the other guy's hand? No one. Absolutely no one. Yet here we all are clearing static mechanics left, right and centre.
Most people have heard the saying “Only a fool learns from his own mistakes. The wise man learns from the mistakes of others.” Groups will progress far more quickly and efficiently if they have veteran people that can teach new players what to do because they themselves have been there before rather than if new players need to relearn everything from scratch through their own trial and error which typically has an attrition rate where people get burned out and leave raiding because the task seems insurmountable if the group in its entirety is new. A progression cadence where small successes are earned at regular intervals while learning not only keeps new end game players engaged and prevented from becoming discouraged, but they learn better overall because they can see why something is bad by asking someone who came before.
Beating one's head against a wall repeatedly while learning a new trial from scratch is we do that every time a new trial comes out, but that task is best done once a player has been acclimated to raiding and sees the larger picture of general raiding mechanics so they are more likely to be able to adapt on the fly. If the vast majority of end game players left ESO, raiding will take a huge hit and would essentially have to rebuild from the ground up which won't make raiding more accessible for anyone because existing groups of raiders will get more exclusive to clear new and existing content instead of opening their doors to teach new people like they are doing right now. I can't overstate the importance of having a knowledgeable veteran raid leads who can teach new players in an understanding manner as the best way to assuage new players fears about being new to raiding and "messing up" in a trial. Not knowing what to do is perhaps the single most voiced fear from casual players here on the forums when it comes to exploring trials. Overall having a healthy population of veteran raiders is better overall for that portion of the game.
I completely understand what you're trying to say, but i disagree with the sentiment behind it.
1) You're basing your entire argument around anecdotal evidence
2) Placing too much importance on a very, very small fraction of players
Point one, I haven't heard many people at all saying they're going to jack the game in. So who is right, me or you? After all, my personal experience of there being a mass exodus of vet players does not align with yours at all. With each and every major update, we get the same story spouted on here ad nauseam, without fail. Yet the game goes on, and most folk remain.
Point two, this forum is rarely if ever indicative of the player base at large. Most folk simply don't care enough. Reddit, here and other forums related to ESO are simply populated by a very small vocal minority. This gives some people the impression that they aren't expendable. They're too important to lose. Because they assume, wrongly may i add, that the game only works because some like-minded folk on here tell them so. When they hear it enough, they begin to believe the hype. According to this forum, we all do vet trials, we all do it for scores. Nope, it's only within threads like this that people actually give a damn.
You just need to look at the leaderboards in-game to see my point. It's the same people week in, week out on those leaderboards.The groups rarely change. So where are all these new players you're mentioning? I don't see them. Using your logic, and because you deem it a very significant part of the game, surely we'd be seeing new players commonly being rotated in and out of these groups? It borders on a closed community. I'm not knocking them, but you're on here arguing it's quite the opposite when anyone that can be bothered checking it out for themselves can see it's anything but what you're attempting to make it out to be. Some leaderboards aren't even full. And the ones that are, it's not uncommon to see a grp that just ran the content just because, and unwittingly ended up on that leaderboard.
Except most folks haven't remained. Most have moved on. Less than 1/4 of my friends list logs on anymore. And of those that still do log on most rarely play more than a few hours/week now. Most players that were here since the beginning have already moved on or just quit gaming until something worth playing comes along. ZOS keeps taking ESO in a direction that is company oriented, not player oriented and it's really starting to show.
Again, it's just yet more anecdotal evidence.
Not many people stick around the same game for 7 years. I've left the game umpteen times. Once for around 2 years. Nothing to do with anything other than burnout. When reaching that point, things in game do become more irritating such as crashes, DC', changes etc etc so i'm not actually rubbishing their reasons for leaving. But the underlying problem is burn out. Aye, 7 years mate, I'd expect a number of folk to have left for horizons new. I'm actually more surprised at finding people who have stuck around for that entire 7 years. It does happen, but most folk do eventually take a break or just move on.
Sometimes games evolve and they do leave some players behind, but there's enough things to be getting on with. I experienced this with Football manager. I loved that game, but it became too time-consuming once they began making tactics etc more complicated and convoluted. So i moved on.
Nothing anecdotal about it. My friends that don't log on anymore have all stated clearly why they don't play anymore, and I'm repeating the reasons right here right now.
You are basing this on your own personal experience, so yes, it's the very definition of anecdotal. I'm in numerous large guilds on both NA and EU, and i've seen a grand total of 2 people even mention they're leaving. Most of these guilds have 400+ members. I have simply never seen what you're seeing. So it depends in which circles you socialise in.
If i was in a small guild that was solely focused on dps and meta, maybe i would be agreeing with you. These sort of guilds are nothing more than your standard echo chamber. I've been in enough of them to know. When surrounded by like-minded people it's easy to think the majority think that way, but it's usually quite the opposite.
So we're clear, i am not seeing what you are seeing. If i never ventured on here, I wouldn't even know it was a major issue for some people, and i'm in some very large and active guilds on both servers.
The casual player doesn't notice how much things have changed and are continuing to change, so they don't care. That's the difference. We are all members of some large guilds.
We're starting to come together on our pov's. Casual players by and large make up the number of players in game. They're also the people who probably collectively sink the most money into the game, and those who ZoS probably do have to keep happy. They will have the numbers at hand in which to make these decisions.
What i do think needs to change if these changes go through, a fundamental shift in some of those end game mechanics. I mean, it makes little or no sense to hobble those guys you socialise with, but still throw ridiculous dps checks their way.Edited by Prof_Bawbag on July 25, 2022 10:06AM3 -
WinterHeart626✭✭✭✭Let them quit for a couple of months, there are other games out there worth trying.
There are plenty of guides on youtube if you want to learn how to do a boss, like the one below.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ItA98BthuU
I am a new player and I don't need someone else to carry me through raids or trials how are called in this game.
If I ain't good enough or don't know the mechanics I shouldn't be able to clear out the content.
The thing is, how do you think those guides make it there in the first place. All those guides are painstakingly created by players who’ve gone through trial and error to figure out those mechanics, posted the results up as a guide, thus, makes it easier for others to clear the content so long as they are aware of how to do the mechanics after watching.
There’s no such thing as “ain’t good enough” only “room to improve”, as for mechanics, with those videos on you tube, posted by clear teams and content streamers, they’re Essentially the “primas guide to eso” (anyone who’s old enough will remember those guides), following the mechs is only 1/4 of the battle, you still have to have a team that knows the basic mechs as well, otherwise, it falls apart.
If you’ve run Asylum Sanctorum, then you will find a variety of mechanics that can be a pain, however it’s entirely plausible for a raid group to consist of 7-8 people and clear that trial lead by a raid leader who knows the mechs, while the other 6-7 players know nothing other than “whack things and heals”. provided the raid leader knows what to look for and makes the call-outs.6 -
Hortator Indoril Nerevar✭✭✭✭✭
✭I avoid helping people. I've had enough people bite my head off for offering simple little tips...
Not worth it anymore... Gl.
Edited by Hortator Indoril Nerevar on July 25, 2022 11:48AM2 -
TirantLoBlanch✭✭✭Let them quit for a couple of months, there are other games out there worth trying.
There are plenty of guides on youtube if you want to learn how to do a boss, like the one below.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ItA98BthuU
I am a new player and I don't need someone else to carry me through raids or trials how are called in this game.
If I ain't good enough or don't know the mechanics I shouldn't be able to clear out the content.
Nice, And now tell me how this videos, all builded about a different sysrem of combat will help you to complete a trial, if your dps and your healing is simply not enough to survive, the duration of the fight makes an error more than 10 times probable than in the video, and the less obvious dps checks in the game smash your team in the face.
So you are saying you could figure by yourself the mechaniscs of the tombs in Lokkestiz just by trial and error, because you dont need no one to explain how they work...
So you are saying that you dont need dudes theorycrafting and teaching raids, because there are dudes theorycrafting and teaching raids... (And fatally onsolete soon)
Man, you made my day...9 -
wolfie1.0.✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Change.
Change never change.
The only thing that is permanent is change.
I mean death comes to mind....
Oh and that sometimes people never change.
Or ideas people have never change...
I mean how many topics do we have on the forums here that keep being recycled every few weeks or months?3 -
Dragkiris✭✭✭I don't think nearly as many will leave as the Chicken Littles say. Maybe people can actually make a go at trials w/o the meta team telling them every 10 seconds "You're doing it wrong!!!" even when they're making progress, just not as fast as the meta team thinks they should.
EDIT: To be clear, there's nothing wrong with experienced players helping, but the ones that just quote the latest 'GUIDE' that says " YOU MUST FOLLOW OUR RECIPE TO THE LETTER OR YOU"RE DOING IT WRONG!!!"...then I can do without those people.
thats crap and you know it.4 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭EdmondDontes wrote: »Prof_Bawbag wrote: »Ragnarok0130 wrote: »Prof_Bawbag wrote: »Ragnarok0130 wrote: »I see so many under 800 cp players. So I suspect that if some veterans quit, then they will just be replaced.
The issue with that is the "brain drain" where the raiding knowledge base and practical expertise to train new raiders is severely reduced so people have to learn all over again via trial and error (no pun intended). This happened with Morrowind, and took several years to recover from and the current situation looks like a repeat of Morrowind. But hey at least we can choose the Morrowind theme music on the title screen to get the full nostalgia effect.
God forbid people have to learn something on their own. How have we as humans managed to evolve in all aspects of life from the year dot.
The mechanics are static, they rarely if ever change. You're giving this game waaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much credit. As i said in the post above, there are way more complex games than ESO. In the grand scheme of things, ESO is quite easy. It doesn't need hand holding. People require hand holding because it's available to them. Folk will always take the easy option. I do too.
When this game first released, who held your hand? My hand, the other guy's hand? No one. Absolutely no one. Yet here we all are clearing static mechanics left, right and centre.
Most people have heard the saying “Only a fool learns from his own mistakes. The wise man learns from the mistakes of others.” Groups will progress far more quickly and efficiently if they have veteran people that can teach new players what to do because they themselves have been there before rather than if new players need to relearn everything from scratch through their own trial and error which typically has an attrition rate where people get burned out and leave raiding because the task seems insurmountable if the group in its entirety is new. A progression cadence where small successes are earned at regular intervals while learning not only keeps new end game players engaged and prevented from becoming discouraged, but they learn better overall because they can see why something is bad by asking someone who came before.
Beating one's head against a wall repeatedly while learning a new trial from scratch is we do that every time a new trial comes out, but that task is best done once a player has been acclimated to raiding and sees the larger picture of general raiding mechanics so they are more likely to be able to adapt on the fly. If the vast majority of end game players left ESO, raiding will take a huge hit and would essentially have to rebuild from the ground up which won't make raiding more accessible for anyone because existing groups of raiders will get more exclusive to clear new and existing content instead of opening their doors to teach new people like they are doing right now. I can't overstate the importance of having a knowledgeable veteran raid leads who can teach new players in an understanding manner as the best way to assuage new players fears about being new to raiding and "messing up" in a trial. Not knowing what to do is perhaps the single most voiced fear from casual players here on the forums when it comes to exploring trials. Overall having a healthy population of veteran raiders is better overall for that portion of the game.
I completely understand what you're trying to say, but i disagree with the sentiment behind it.
1) You're basing your entire argument around anecdotal evidence
2) Placing too much importance on a very, very small fraction of players
Point one, I haven't heard many people at all saying they're going to jack the game in. So who is right, me or you? After all, my personal experience of there being a mass exodus of vet players does not align with yours at all. With each and every major update, we get the same story spouted on here ad nauseam, without fail. Yet the game goes on, and most folk remain.
Point two, this forum is rarely if ever indicative of the player base at large. Most folk simply don't care enough. Reddit, here and other forums related to ESO are simply populated by a very small vocal minority. This gives some people the impression that they aren't expendable. They're too important to lose. Because they assume, wrongly may i add, that the game only works because some like-minded folk on here tell them so. When they hear it enough, they begin to believe the hype. According to this forum, we all do vet trials, we all do it for scores. Nope, it's only within threads like this that people actually give a damn.
You just need to look at the leaderboards in-game to see my point. It's the same people week in, week out on those leaderboards.The groups rarely change. So where are all these new players you're mentioning? I don't see them. Using your logic, and because you deem it a very significant part of the game, surely we'd be seeing new players commonly being rotated in and out of these groups? It borders on a closed community. I'm not knocking them, but you're on here arguing it's quite the opposite when anyone that can be bothered checking it out for themselves can see it's anything but what you're attempting to make it out to be. Some leaderboards aren't even full. And the ones that are, it's not uncommon to see a grp that just ran the content just because, and unwittingly ended up on that leaderboard.
Except most folks haven't remained. Most have moved on. Less than 1/4 of my friends list logs on anymore. And of those that still do log on most rarely play more than a few hours/week now. Most players that were here since the beginning have already moved on or just quit gaming until something worth playing comes along. ZOS keeps taking ESO in a direction that is company oriented, not player oriented and it's really starting to show.
The steam numbers show that most have stayed. But that they did lose a lot of players between the last expansion and now. Some of that is due to Covid, some of it due to unpopular decisions driving people out such as AWA. Since Steam is PC thing, I'd assume some of it is PvPers leaving for New World.Edited by spartaxoxo on July 25, 2022 5:27PM1 -
K9002✭✭✭✭✭
Wait until U35 goes live. The guildies I spoke with are mostly not aware of what's in the patch notes, they have only read the U35 combat preview or got fragmentary information by hearsay. And those are people who do veteran trials and are members of various prog groups. The full impact will be felt a month from now.spartaxoxo wrote: »The steam numbers show that most have stayed. But that they did lose a lot of players between the last expansion and now. Some of that is due to Covid, some of it due to unpopular decisions driving people out such as AWA. Since Steam is PC thing, I'd assume some of it is PvPers leaving for New World.4 -
geekboy09✭✭✭✭The thing with casual players very very few of them join in any events of any type. They hardly chat in guild chat or interact with the guild's discord. One might ask why they even join guilds in the first place.4 -
EdmondDontes✭✭✭✭✭
✭spartaxoxo wrote: »EdmondDontes wrote: »Prof_Bawbag wrote: »Ragnarok0130 wrote: »Prof_Bawbag wrote: »Ragnarok0130 wrote: »I see so many under 800 cp players. So I suspect that if some veterans quit, then they will just be replaced.
The issue with that is the "brain drain" where the raiding knowledge base and practical expertise to train new raiders is severely reduced so people have to learn all over again via trial and error (no pun intended). This happened with Morrowind, and took several years to recover from and the current situation looks like a repeat of Morrowind. But hey at least we can choose the Morrowind theme music on the title screen to get the full nostalgia effect.
God forbid people have to learn something on their own. How have we as humans managed to evolve in all aspects of life from the year dot.
The mechanics are static, they rarely if ever change. You're giving this game waaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much credit. As i said in the post above, there are way more complex games than ESO. In the grand scheme of things, ESO is quite easy. It doesn't need hand holding. People require hand holding because it's available to them. Folk will always take the easy option. I do too.
When this game first released, who held your hand? My hand, the other guy's hand? No one. Absolutely no one. Yet here we all are clearing static mechanics left, right and centre.
Most people have heard the saying “Only a fool learns from his own mistakes. The wise man learns from the mistakes of others.” Groups will progress far more quickly and efficiently if they have veteran people that can teach new players what to do because they themselves have been there before rather than if new players need to relearn everything from scratch through their own trial and error which typically has an attrition rate where people get burned out and leave raiding because the task seems insurmountable if the group in its entirety is new. A progression cadence where small successes are earned at regular intervals while learning not only keeps new end game players engaged and prevented from becoming discouraged, but they learn better overall because they can see why something is bad by asking someone who came before.
Beating one's head against a wall repeatedly while learning a new trial from scratch is we do that every time a new trial comes out, but that task is best done once a player has been acclimated to raiding and sees the larger picture of general raiding mechanics so they are more likely to be able to adapt on the fly. If the vast majority of end game players left ESO, raiding will take a huge hit and would essentially have to rebuild from the ground up which won't make raiding more accessible for anyone because existing groups of raiders will get more exclusive to clear new and existing content instead of opening their doors to teach new people like they are doing right now. I can't overstate the importance of having a knowledgeable veteran raid leads who can teach new players in an understanding manner as the best way to assuage new players fears about being new to raiding and "messing up" in a trial. Not knowing what to do is perhaps the single most voiced fear from casual players here on the forums when it comes to exploring trials. Overall having a healthy population of veteran raiders is better overall for that portion of the game.
I completely understand what you're trying to say, but i disagree with the sentiment behind it.
1) You're basing your entire argument around anecdotal evidence
2) Placing too much importance on a very, very small fraction of players
Point one, I haven't heard many people at all saying they're going to jack the game in. So who is right, me or you? After all, my personal experience of there being a mass exodus of vet players does not align with yours at all. With each and every major update, we get the same story spouted on here ad nauseam, without fail. Yet the game goes on, and most folk remain.
Point two, this forum is rarely if ever indicative of the player base at large. Most folk simply don't care enough. Reddit, here and other forums related to ESO are simply populated by a very small vocal minority. This gives some people the impression that they aren't expendable. They're too important to lose. Because they assume, wrongly may i add, that the game only works because some like-minded folk on here tell them so. When they hear it enough, they begin to believe the hype. According to this forum, we all do vet trials, we all do it for scores. Nope, it's only within threads like this that people actually give a damn.
You just need to look at the leaderboards in-game to see my point. It's the same people week in, week out on those leaderboards.The groups rarely change. So where are all these new players you're mentioning? I don't see them. Using your logic, and because you deem it a very significant part of the game, surely we'd be seeing new players commonly being rotated in and out of these groups? It borders on a closed community. I'm not knocking them, but you're on here arguing it's quite the opposite when anyone that can be bothered checking it out for themselves can see it's anything but what you're attempting to make it out to be. Some leaderboards aren't even full. And the ones that are, it's not uncommon to see a grp that just ran the content just because, and unwittingly ended up on that leaderboard.
Except most folks haven't remained. Most have moved on. Less than 1/4 of my friends list logs on anymore. And of those that still do log on most rarely play more than a few hours/week now. Most players that were here since the beginning have already moved on or just quit gaming until something worth playing comes along. ZOS keeps taking ESO in a direction that is company oriented, not player oriented and it's really starting to show.
The steam numbers show that most have stayed. But that they did lose a lot of players between the last expansion and now. Some of that is due to Covid, some of it due to unpopular decisions driving people out such as AWA. Since Steam is PC thing, I'd assume some of it is PvPers leaving for New World.
I don't know anyone who plays ESO through steam...or understand why anyone would. It's just a third party app that can cause issues. I also don't know any PvP players who have left for New World. They've just left. I mostly PvP and in the last two years I've gone from having 50 friends that log on daily or nearly daily to less than 5. ZOS has pretty much already killed PvP, and I think U35, in combo with U33, is going to do something similar to PvE. ....but time will tell.2 -
AngelicaDLynn✭✭✭Aetherderius wrote: »I'm pretty sure zos can see completions, at the very least in the frequency of new 'finish Trial on normal' achievements. And I'm sure they'll get /bug reports and posts on the forums talking about how too hard the New Trial is.
Then maybe they'll do a Trial restructure and make them all a wee bit easier so the people who actually enjoy the game enough to stick around through a small combat change can complete them.
Or by the q4 update, there's some spring-back from the change and a middle ground is achieved. But hey. If EVERY endgamer is going to leave, i guess negotiations at a later date are off the table.
The thing is if they (devs) are already saying they may have to nerf content after these DPS changes then why do the nerfs period? Quite honestly I do not trust them to get the nerfs right or the content afterwards. Sorry but when they have to make changes every three months it shows they have no clue what they are doing. Imagine your boss coming to you every couple of months and changing how you should do your job because it would be "more efficient". People would think they were, well not very bright or good at their jobs.2 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭EdmondDontes wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »EdmondDontes wrote: »Prof_Bawbag wrote: »Ragnarok0130 wrote: »Prof_Bawbag wrote: »Ragnarok0130 wrote: »I see so many under 800 cp players. So I suspect that if some veterans quit, then they will just be replaced.
The issue with that is the "brain drain" where the raiding knowledge base and practical expertise to train new raiders is severely reduced so people have to learn all over again via trial and error (no pun intended). This happened with Morrowind, and took several years to recover from and the current situation looks like a repeat of Morrowind. But hey at least we can choose the Morrowind theme music on the title screen to get the full nostalgia effect.
God forbid people have to learn something on their own. How have we as humans managed to evolve in all aspects of life from the year dot.
The mechanics are static, they rarely if ever change. You're giving this game waaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much credit. As i said in the post above, there are way more complex games than ESO. In the grand scheme of things, ESO is quite easy. It doesn't need hand holding. People require hand holding because it's available to them. Folk will always take the easy option. I do too.
When this game first released, who held your hand? My hand, the other guy's hand? No one. Absolutely no one. Yet here we all are clearing static mechanics left, right and centre.
Most people have heard the saying “Only a fool learns from his own mistakes. The wise man learns from the mistakes of others.” Groups will progress far more quickly and efficiently if they have veteran people that can teach new players what to do because they themselves have been there before rather than if new players need to relearn everything from scratch through their own trial and error which typically has an attrition rate where people get burned out and leave raiding because the task seems insurmountable if the group in its entirety is new. A progression cadence where small successes are earned at regular intervals while learning not only keeps new end game players engaged and prevented from becoming discouraged, but they learn better overall because they can see why something is bad by asking someone who came before.
Beating one's head against a wall repeatedly while learning a new trial from scratch is we do that every time a new trial comes out, but that task is best done once a player has been acclimated to raiding and sees the larger picture of general raiding mechanics so they are more likely to be able to adapt on the fly. If the vast majority of end game players left ESO, raiding will take a huge hit and would essentially have to rebuild from the ground up which won't make raiding more accessible for anyone because existing groups of raiders will get more exclusive to clear new and existing content instead of opening their doors to teach new people like they are doing right now. I can't overstate the importance of having a knowledgeable veteran raid leads who can teach new players in an understanding manner as the best way to assuage new players fears about being new to raiding and "messing up" in a trial. Not knowing what to do is perhaps the single most voiced fear from casual players here on the forums when it comes to exploring trials. Overall having a healthy population of veteran raiders is better overall for that portion of the game.
I completely understand what you're trying to say, but i disagree with the sentiment behind it.
1) You're basing your entire argument around anecdotal evidence
2) Placing too much importance on a very, very small fraction of players
Point one, I haven't heard many people at all saying they're going to jack the game in. So who is right, me or you? After all, my personal experience of there being a mass exodus of vet players does not align with yours at all. With each and every major update, we get the same story spouted on here ad nauseam, without fail. Yet the game goes on, and most folk remain.
Point two, this forum is rarely if ever indicative of the player base at large. Most folk simply don't care enough. Reddit, here and other forums related to ESO are simply populated by a very small vocal minority. This gives some people the impression that they aren't expendable. They're too important to lose. Because they assume, wrongly may i add, that the game only works because some like-minded folk on here tell them so. When they hear it enough, they begin to believe the hype. According to this forum, we all do vet trials, we all do it for scores. Nope, it's only within threads like this that people actually give a damn.
You just need to look at the leaderboards in-game to see my point. It's the same people week in, week out on those leaderboards.The groups rarely change. So where are all these new players you're mentioning? I don't see them. Using your logic, and because you deem it a very significant part of the game, surely we'd be seeing new players commonly being rotated in and out of these groups? It borders on a closed community. I'm not knocking them, but you're on here arguing it's quite the opposite when anyone that can be bothered checking it out for themselves can see it's anything but what you're attempting to make it out to be. Some leaderboards aren't even full. And the ones that are, it's not uncommon to see a grp that just ran the content just because, and unwittingly ended up on that leaderboard.
Except most folks haven't remained. Most have moved on. Less than 1/4 of my friends list logs on anymore. And of those that still do log on most rarely play more than a few hours/week now. Most players that were here since the beginning have already moved on or just quit gaming until something worth playing comes along. ZOS keeps taking ESO in a direction that is company oriented, not player oriented and it's really starting to show.
The steam numbers show that most have stayed. But that they did lose a lot of players between the last expansion and now. Some of that is due to Covid, some of it due to unpopular decisions driving people out such as AWA. Since Steam is PC thing, I'd assume some of it is PvPers leaving for New World.
I don't know anyone who plays ESO through steam...or understand why anyone would. It's just a third party app that can cause issues. I also don't know any PvP players who have left for New World. They've just left. I mostly PvP and in the last two years I've gone from having 50 friends that log on daily or nearly daily to less than 5. ZOS has pretty much already killed PvP, and I think U35, in combo with U33, is going to do something similar to PvE. ....but time will tell.
Steam is just a PC launcher, so there's no reason to think it's playerbase is acting significantly differently than other PC users. You might not know anyone who went to New World, but there was a ton of people who posted they were leaving for pvp explicitly here. And there was a dip around that time too. Presumably some came back here and others stayed in NW. The devs even addressed the matter.Edited by spartaxoxo on July 25, 2022 6:35PM0 -
Cryptor✭✭✭I am yet to find a hardcore end game raider who goes out of their way to walk people through thingsCasually Xbox Guild: Discord Server - Recruiting Thread - Guild Website - My information: Instagram - Twitch Stream - Youtube Channel - Discord Server - Xbox GT: OGCryptor - Mastodon Profile1 -
WinterHeart626✭✭✭✭I am yet to find a hardcore end game raider who goes out of their way to walk people through things
I’ve found a fair few in the guild I joined in. Been a blast. Even have some end gamers who do things for FUN (ergo, 7 man Asylum Sanctorum, one tank, 1 healer, me on hybrid dps front/ heals back cracking 60K impales during executes and 4 others on dps). It was a good time. Many a teabagging for dying in stupid was had from all sides (this is the kind of thing we do, and it’s in good fun, never done to people who don’t know us), same guy dragged us through hard modes in vet dungeons with no heals or tanks too. Also good fun, try not to die, teabags can and do happen.
So yes, there are some out there.
I suggest putting up a post in an ESO FB group for the system and server you play on. Guilds can be fun (there are guilds that are unfun, I won’t deny this).0 -
BretonMage✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The thing with casual players very very few of them join in any events of any type. They hardly chat in guild chat or interact with the guild's discord. One might ask why they even join guilds in the first place.
People who don't chat much may choose to listen instead. Nothing wrong with that.2 -
Sync01✭✭✭✭I don't understand how some people think that players have stayed through years of changes, but are suddenly terrified of change. Every patch there are changes, and every patch we adapt.
If the changes go through the way they are now, trials will be out of reach for a lot of players because while the dps and hps goes down the requirements for trials remain the same. I don't think a lot of players realise just how high the dps requirements are for the latest trials.0 -
Lumsdenml✭✭✭✭✭
✭Raiders belong in WOW and Las Vegas.
But seriously, people will adapt just like the last end of the world event when Morrowind launched.In game ID: @KnightOfTacoma
Main: Black Knight of Tacoma - EP Lvl 50/CP 2160 Nightblade NA PC - Grand Master Crafter, adventurer and part time ganker. Rank 35 - Palatine Grade 1
PVP Main:Knight of Tacoma - EP Lvl 50 Templar NA PC - Rank 29 - Brigadier Grade 1 - Ravenwatch veteran. Blood for the Pact!
Guild: The Disenfranchised - ZZ!Other alts:
Blood Scion of Tacoma - EP Lvl 50 Nightblade NA PC
Duke of Tacoma - EP Lvl 50 Dragonknight NA PC
Yama Of Tacoma - EP Lvl 50 Necromancer NA PC
Count Of Tacoma - EP Lvl 50 Necromancer NA PC
Seigneur of Tacoma - EP Lvl 28 Arcanist NA PC
Grand Vizier of Tacoma - EP Lvl 19 Arcanist NA PC - Icereach
Baron of Tacoma- EP Lvl 50 Warden NA PC -
Ali'i nui of Tacoma- EP Lvl 17 Sorcerer NA PC -
Angus of Tacoma- EP Lvl 47 Sorcerer NA PC - Former EmperorObituary:
RIP Priest of Tacoma - EP Lvl 22 Dragon Knight NA PC Kyne - Lost in the Garden of Shadows.
RIP.Viscount of Tacoma - EP Lvl 18 Dragon Knight NA PC Kyne - Lost in the war.
RIP. Squire of Tacoma - EP Lvl 50 Templar NA PC - Died of Knahaten Flu.
RIP Reaper of Tacoma - EP Lvl 50 Templar NA PC - Died of Consumption.
RIP Sovereign of Tacoma - EP Lvl 32 NightBlade NA PC Kyne - Lost at The Battle of Brindle, December 13, 2018.
RIP Dauphin of Tacoma - EP Lvl 50 Templar NA PC Kyne - Overdosed on Skooma.
RIP Wraith of Tacoma - EP Lvl 10 Dragon Knight NA PC - Eaten by a dragon.
RIP Red Knight of Tacoma - EP Lvl 50 Templar NA PC - Died at the Battle of Chalmen, March 18th, 2021.
RIP Maharajah of Tacoma - EP Lvl 50 Templar NA PC - Lost in a sandstorm.
RIP Vampire Of Tacoma - EP Lvl 50 Sorcerer NA PC - Fell asleep in the sun. RIP3 -
Riptide✭✭✭✭✭
✭The thing is, how do you think those guides make it there in the first place. All those guides are painstakingly created by players who’ve gone through trial and error to figure out those mechanics, posted the results up as a guide, thus, makes it easier for others to clear the content so long as they are aware of how to do the mechanics after watching.
Hehe not to mention that at least in the progs I’ve been involved in watching guides is the bare minimum, still either need either an experienced raid lead or else tremendous group patience. And if the update goes through as is there will be more than usual wipes which lead to folks looking at builds and such to optimize, and we all know those one or two folks who are allergic to meta - and they aren’t going to like the rise in frequency of being asked to tweak to output the damage to close the gap. And the raid leads aren’t going to like asking, or the drama from meta allergic folks.
So if it does go live, and it draws out in that state its raid leads who are going to certainly entrench and/or hiatus. It is draining leading people into brick walls, and tolerance for stubborn folks unwilling to optimize in the face of a bear market damage situation will lower noticeably.
But I mean, hey, they gots dem guides, they’ll be good
Esse quam videri.1 -
SerafinaWaterstar✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I am no longer raiding 4 hours a night several days a week.
See, that is one of the things about raiding that puts people off - the ridiculous time commitments. Most people cannot sign up for such schedules. (Turned down a group that wanted you free both Sat & Sun mornings - my family would have sold the playstation)
I lead a relaxed prog group for my social guild on PS. We meet once a week, have a 2hr max time slot, and a friendly attitude. We are not doing much at the moment due to holidays & MYM but will start again in a few weeks.
And we shall wait & see how the update finally affects things. And see how to adapt.3 -
AvalonRanger✭✭✭✭✭
✭Is end-game contents of ESO really fun?
As one of Elder Scrolls fan, I've never feel like that.
Most of people just do it for resource farming, right? Not for enjoying.
As far as ZOS keeps concentrating Elder Scrolls solo story contents,
then I don't care U35 anymore.
Edited by AvalonRanger on July 26, 2022 9:00AMMy playing time Mon-Friday UTC13:00-16:00 [PC-NA] CP over2000 now.
I'm Tank and Healer main player.2 -
BXR_Lonestar✭✭✭✭✭
✭This is going to be an unpopular post probably, but I don't think most endgamers are going to leave. I'm sure some will, but there are just as many endgamers who are frustrated at the state of the game (and combat system) and are open to seeing changes in this department of the game, especially if it forces Zos to come back and rebalance some encounters that are so overtuned and ridiculous in the first place (Looking at you - wave 2 of Vet Black Rose Prison). This is basically a soft reset for power creep purposes and if the changes are steps towards a combat system that doesn't over-emphasize DPS, having high APM, etc. to have good damage output, then I think there are a lot more players who will be open to the change, even if it goes through some rough patches at first.
What I hear when I see a lot of endgame players say they're going to quit is "Vet trials may no longer be an exclusive club, so I quit." If a new combat system puts us all on a more even playing field, though, I'm all for it, and I think the game will be in a better position overall after weathering the changes than it is in right now (at least IMO).6 -
Elendir2am✭✭✭✭AvalonRanger wrote: »Is end-game contents of ESO really fun?
As one of Elder Scrolls fan, I've never feel like that.
Most of people just do it for resource farming, right? Not for enjoying.
As far as ZOS keeps concentrating Elder Scrolls solo story contents,
then I don't care U35 anymore.
I playing all part of ESO for fun only. Trials HM isn't exception. My progress guild is groups of friend who spend some evenings hunting some achievements.
Several different reason for enjoyment are there, but without getting some new achievements from time to time, it lack of purpose. We never were too serious about improvement, but we grow and were able do harder and harder content.
It is question, how it will work after U35.BXR_Lonestar wrote: »What I hear when I see a lot of endgame players say they're going to quit is "Vet trials may no longer be an exclusive club, so I quit." If a new combat system puts us all on a more even playing field, though, I'm all for it, and I think the game will be in a better position overall after weathering the changes than it is in right now (at least IMO).
Your comment is in direct contradiction with U35. End game PvE will become more exclusive, than before.PvP - Recruit.
PvE - Dragon food
RPG - A guy who thought, that he can defeat daedric prince, yet guards still chase him off when he accidentally touches some object during daily writs.3 -
Anhedonie✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Casual players will have to do with just normal trials.
Besides, I have a feeling ZOS is gonna stop adding trials during summer DLCs.Profanity filter is a crime against the freedom of speech. Also gags.0 -
francesinhalover✭✭✭✭✭
✭maybe ppl that don't ask for 20-40 mill goldI am @fluffypallascat pc eu if someone wants to play together
Shadow strike is the best cp passive ever!0 -
Suddwrath✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭BXR_Lonestar wrote: »What I hear when I see a lot of endgame players say they're going to quit is "Vet trials may no longer be an exclusive club, so I quit." If a new combat system puts us all on a more even playing field, though, I'm all for it, and I think the game will be in a better position overall after weathering the changes than it is in right now (at least IMO).
This update is going to make vet trials even less accessible for casual players.2 -
alanmatillab16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭If most of the endgame raiders go because of update 35, Who will help the casual players do trials?
How do you think those endgame raiders started? how do you think the first trials were done? Every end game raider can quit the game today and never log back on, U35 could get released and all that would happen is trials and raids would not be completed for a while until a new batch of raiders came through.
To be frank, players need to get over themselves and stop thinking the game ends without them. There is NO one group in this game that cannot and will not be replaced by new players.6
