If most of the endgame raiders go because of update 35, Who will help the casual players do trials?

geekboy09 · July 2022

My hunch is they will nix trials altogether in the next chapter...

Treeshka · July 2022

Well if that happens new players will form new groups and progress but i doubt everyone will leave at the same time.

mavfin · July 2022

I don't think nearly as many will leave as the Chicken Littles say. Maybe people can actually make a go at trials w/o the meta team telling them every 10 seconds "You're doing it wrong!!!" even when they're making progress, just not as fast as the meta team thinks they should.

EDIT: To be clear, there's nothing wrong with experienced players helping, but the ones that just quote the latest 'GUIDE' that says " YOU MUST FOLLOW OUR RECIPE TO THE LETTER OR YOU"RE DOING IT WRONG!!!"...then I can do without those people.

shaxigamingeb17_ESO · July 2022

There won't be many left. I know I wouldn't have gone beyond pugging RNDs if it wasn't for those "toxic elitists" pushing me towards doing harder and harder content and making me realize I did in fact have the potential to do more.

It's not looking great right now. First the vCR+3 prog I signed up for disbanded once the patch notes hit. Now my dungeon group is in jeopardy because peope are tired both of the changes and people talking about the changes. Just as we were on the cusp of clearing the Scalecaller Peak trifecta. Right now it feels like soon I'll be the village idiot who got left behind when everyone else made it out. But I'm only left because I truly enjoy and love this game despite its faults. I hope we can be heard loud and clear about U35 and that I won't have to lose my friends over this since this is the one game we all play and used to enjoy doing so.

bmnoble · July 2022

What makes you think they will be more likely to do trials than they are now. Heck I know a few guild mates who refuse to set foot in group dungeons. Players currently uninterested in trials will continue to ignore them as they always have.

New players interested in doing trials will either hunt down a guild still doing them or form new PUG groups of like minded players, all these guilds doing trials didn't materialise in game overnight, they formed over years, might be some reshuffling of guilds or brand new progressive guilds starting up but people who want to will keep doing trials.

I very much doubt all the end game raiders will pack it in and leave, they will have a break and come back later on when they are ready, probably around the time update 36 drops and we will see if ZOS backflips on the changes they are planning for update 35.

kargen27 · July 2022

We've been leaving in droves since 2014. There was a mass exodus of almost a billion players shortly after One Tamriel.

Casual players now will do what many casual players have been doing for years. They will group with other casual players and decide to make it a regular thing creating a progression team that will eventually figure things out. Many will have all kinds of fun doing so.

Alchemical · July 2022

Probably the old players who have endured nerfs before and are here because they genuinely just like the vibe, which is not an insubstantial number of players. I'm not a godslayer but I can teach pugs vSS. I don't really care if they're doing 20k as long they're trying, and I've seen worse pugs down vet Yoln. If the execute on Nav simply isn't possible, then it isn't, oh well. If too much of the game is simply no longer possible after the changes by a large potion of the player base, then they'll change it again. Whatever happens, this meta will also pass.

You can panic and doomsay about it, or you can roll with it.

maxjapank · July 2022

I see so many under 800 cp players. So I suspect that if some veterans quit, then they will just be replaced.

renne · July 2022

I don't know but I'm excited to see them complain that there's no one around to help or carry them anymore.

Because we all know who we can point to as responsible.

Jordan.nick11b14_ESO · July 2022

geekboy09 wrote: »

My hunch is they will nix trials altogether in the next chapter...

No. I don't think so. If I were to make a guess, I'd say that there's going to be a happy medium between what the playerbase wants and what the developers are tryin to achieve and while things might simmer for a bit, everything will slowly cool off in the months to come.

I just hope that our team of developers are aware that many in the community aren't happy; there needs to be a prolonged, energetic, and enthusiastic effort to re-engage with and find a way to fall in love with the players who enjoy Elder Scrolls Online. I think over the years that's been lost and I hope to see ties begin to strengthen and improve.

LordDragonMara · July 2022

It's hard to replace hard working vet, who have spend years + who have put a lot of works into perfecting their rotation and performing constant LA Weaving.

You going to replace it with who exactly? The people that complain about normal stuffs being hard, because they spam LA, and don't know what rotation mean ?

Also the lazy people quit on the first challenge they face.

Freelancer_ESO · July 2022

I think they'll have a trial in the next chapter as they've possibly already started work on it.

I think it'd be the year after that when they might not do a trial.

If the endgame raiders go it's possible the population for trials will dry up without them but, it's also possible that the number of people interested might go up if the endgame raiders leave due to player perceptions regarding endgame raiders.

iaminc · July 2022

It won’t effect anything imho , The end game raiders run with pre made groups of players as skilled as them so in all likelihood the mid and low tier won’t even notice the loss. I actually doubt the game will feel any less empty either as gotta remember most of the i’m quitting lot are just a small portion of the forum and not representative of the actual full playerbase stats.

As long as someone who has cleared most trails is willing to teach others it won’t matter.

mavfin · July 2022

maxjapank wrote: »

I see so many under 800 cp players. So I suspect that if some veterans quit, then they will just be replaced.

Most people don't realize that MMOs live on new blood all the time, as there are *always* people leaving for one reason or another. If some people quit because of U35, but they keep their steady stream of new players, then it won't bother ZOS very much.

I know people don't want to hear that, and I'm not defending or chastising ZOS, but it's how it works.

Carcamongus · July 2022

I agree that many endgamers will leave, but it'd be absurd to think the game will lose all of them. There's always newer players who want to develop their skills and it seems reasonable several groups of these will be created to venture into trials and harder dungeons. And we'll still have some of the original experienced people around to help (though I do hope situations such as the one described here https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/612486/i-am-done-helping-noobs-toxicity-is-why#latest are the exception, not the rule).

Much will depend on whether the game can remain interesting for enough people once U35 goes live and whatever the devs choose to do afterwards. A game such as ESO won't be killed by a single update, though a series of bad decisions could get that done. The uproar about U35 is so intense that I'm considering trying this PTS thing for the first time (I'm a tank and my solo heavy armor build tries to squeeze whatever damage it can without compromising survivability too much). Finally, there'll still be guilds with people who love the game and, more importantly, love their guilds enough to try to continue beating hard content.

Jamie_Aubrey · July 2022

The new players this is designed for of course

TirantLoBlanch · July 2022

It´s not only the old players going out.
This last days i´ve being testing the average quality of PUG teams in EU

The most part of the teams i joined this week end disbanded before the second boss. And ALL of them struggled to barely complete every phase in the trials.

Less Dps and less healing will wipe the most part of this people in the very first pull.

People insists in going to Vet trials not taking the effort to read a simple guide.
Sometimes the group was takin 45 minuts to complete, and they did not use that time to read a guide to at least to know what is expveted from them-

To make things better, they dont prevent the rest of the team, they supose they can be carried just doing in Rome like the Romans.
So you expect the advanced players to teach others from zero-
To be patient with people who dont take the effort to know what are supposed to bring to this trial
To struggle against the new combat system, to build and adapt correctly
And to compensate all the lose of eficacity of people who was already in suboptimal builds before the U35. and off course will not even know the changes until the patch falls into their heads.

And all this in servers working awfully since last patch... i have seen more bugs this week than past year...

You are asking for too much. being veterans and loving the game means not to be Saints...

Simply, if Zos is doing all the possible to *** everyone and get us tired of "adapt" to senseless changes every two months, there is no "Game" to love, because this game we loved is simply no more the game we ill have, and we feel not a deep preocupation about all the work we have done yet to make the game more accesible.
i cant doubt they have a good intention, they must have if they want to preserve their business.
But as Cordelia says in King Lear...
" We are not the first. Who with best meaning have incurr'd the worst. For thee, oppressed king, am I cast down"

Simply they are underestimating how tired we are of meningless changes...

Vulkunne · July 2022

geekboy09 wrote: »

My hunch is they will nix trials altogether in the next chapter...

lmao ahhhhhhhhhh yes yes. Can totally see it happening.

Vulkunne · July 2022

TirantLoBlanch wrote: »

It´s not only the old players going out.
This last days i´ve being testing the average quality of PUG teams in EU

The most part of the teams i joined this week end disbanded before the second boss. And ALL of them struggled to barely complete every phase in the trials.

Less Dps and less healing will wipe the most part of this people in the very first pull.

People insists in going to Vet trials not taking the effort to read a simple guide.
Sometimes the group was takin 45 minuts to complete, and they did not use that time to read a guide to at least to know what is expveted from them-

To make things better, they dont prevent the rest of the team, they supose they can be carried just doing in Rome like the Romans.
So you expect the advanced players to teach others from zero-
To be patient with people who dont take the effort to know what are supposed to bring to this trial
To struggle against the new combat system, to build and adapt correctly
And to compensate all the lose of eficacity of people who was already in suboptimal builds before the U35. and off course will not even know the changes until the patch falls into their heads.

And all this in servers working awfully since last patch... i have seen more bugs this week than past year...

You are asking for too much. being veterans and loving the game means not to be Saints...

Simply, if Zos is doing all the possible to *** everyone and get us tired of "adapt" to senseless changes every two months, there is no "Game" to love, because this game we loved is simply no more the game we ill have, and we feel not a deep preocupation about all the work we have done yet to make the game more accesible.
i cant doubt they have a good intention, they must have if they want to preserve their business.
But as Cordelia says in King Lear...
" We are not the first. Who with best meaning have incurr'd the worst. For thee, oppressed king, am I cast down"

Simply they are underestimating how tired we are of meningless changes...

Yeppers. I believe it. The Discipline is gone, everyone is their own superhero now with their coveted Mythic Items and no one wants to work together anymore because all the lines have been removed. The group experience has been neutralized, the expectation of quality and commitment that used to be the basic requirement for joining a group has been replaced by everyone tripping over themselves to be the best instead of working together as a Team.

It is the literal difference in history between Celtic Soldiers striving to demonstrate what they can do fighting on their own and a Professional Roman Army working together as one unit.

Stay tuned. More to come

WinterHeart626 · July 2022

EnerG wrote: »

[snip]

You do know that the meta chasers generally don’t PUG craglorn, they already have their teams set up and sorted for progressions and trifectas.
Also, without the meta chasers who go clearing things on day one of release, you wouldn’t have the guides on all the trials readily available with a simple google search. Plus not all of them are toxic, in fact the guild I’m in has 80k+ parsers who are more than willing to explain rotations, skill set ups, synergies, gear load outs as well as modify a rotation for a player who’s struggling with harder rotations. That’s before going into trials, and veteran dungeons.
Did you know sunspire has portal mechanics on normal? I didn’t, until it was pointed out to me by a progression player. Good fun and a great way to learn the mechanics.

Oh, by the way, I’m sitting at 37k on the dummy, hardly end game raider material for trifectas. I avoid PUG trials like the plague due to the horror stories I hear about what goes on in there. Players stacking on healers during AoE phases, DDS taunting bosses and then crying the tank can’t do the job, it’s all there.

With the update 35, you might be happy with what’s going to happen. I see three months of effort and time that I’ve put into the game to get my dps to an acceptable level so I can play in harder content wasted.

[edited to remove quote]

maxjapank · July 2022

mavfin wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

I see so many under 800 cp players. So I suspect that if some veterans quit, then they will just be replaced.

Most people don't realize that MMOs live on new blood all the time, as there are *always* people leaving for one reason or another. If some people quit because of U35, but they keep their steady stream of new players, then it won't bother ZOS very much.

I know people don't want to hear that, and I'm not defending or chastising ZOS, but it's how it works.

Very true. I used to be an avid raider in WoW back in the day. One of the top Oceanic guilds, too. Left that. Came here. Been here for a long time now. It's natural for those to come and go. And just like RL, take sports for example, new blood replaces old. But I do hope some of the old blood stays around.

Nomadic_Atmoran · July 2022

New players will eventually rise to replace those that leave. But it will be a serious brain drain that will result in lessons already learned needing to be re-learned by the collective playerbase. Im also certain that not all endgamers are leaving so there will still be some level of retained knowledge. Right now its more of a question of how many are going to leave and that will dictate how sparse that knowledge retention will be.

Riptide · July 2022

Hah, these folks talking about wanting to do 5k dps in vet trials and good riddance vibe, so what will happen is this:

1. A big chunk, but certainly nothing like all are going to leave/hiatus once the update hits - at this point regardless.
2. There will be 2-3 weeks of mess
3. Over time new, positive in the face of anything people step up
4. They will be joined by and sometimes be the stubborn 5k dps types
5. Soup sandwiches will occur
6. About a third of those folks will become harsher about zos than any of the Cassandras ever were, this time about the content
7. The most vacuous of those will wander off 3-4 weeks later
8. A long, slow rebuilding process of the raiding community will then begin as signs of light in U36 notes show
9. 6 months go by
10. Cycle repeats

AinSoph · July 2022

It's very simple, no one. If you think this global dps nerf will actually increase your chances of getting in a trial, you are very mistaken. The only thing that'll help is the outside resources and decent build websites that the group won't even read up on anyways so unless they decide to do actual research, they'll most likely brute force it for 2+ hours and call it a win for some reason.

spartaxoxo · July 2022

The same people who were teaching them before, none of them. Endgame raiders were mostly new, lower-end elites, not casuals. Someone doing 75k damage isn't casual. The whole reason they are doing this is because casuals weren't able to get invites to content. It's not going to help and only exacerbate the issue. But that was the design intention.

kieso · July 2022

One can only hope they nix trials. 👍

Nestor · July 2022

Every Patch, there is this "mass exodus" of players. Every patch, there are people doing Trials and Dungeons.

Every Patch there are Nerfs to some skills, every patch, DPS goes up eventually.

Every Patch, there are buffs or new items that increase DPS. These are Nerfed eventually, or not.

The only logical conclusion, is, things change, the game goes on.

FantasticFreddie · July 2022

Things don't stay the same tho. Fewer and fewer people are staying at the top. The numbers of characters that have completed the hardest content last patch compared to the one before...... it's sad

We said AWA would cause a lot of people to step away from the game, and it would impact the people with the highest playtime the most. Zos either didn't listen, or didn't care, pushed it through anyways, and it was felt. I don't even want to sit down and try and count the people that left my own circle of the game, but it was a lot. Easily more than 10. Possibly more than 20.
The mass exodus of my friends meant I played less. I am no longer chasing trifectas. I am no longer raiding 4 hours a night several days a week. I have a couple of groups progging hardmodes, with limited success. A least 2 of those are likely to disband next patch if the dps drops, leaving me with one, single trial team that meets once a week.

I haven't bought any crowns since AWA, because I am simply playing the game less and don't care as much.
When I am only logging in for a few hours a week, I will care less. And if that last group dies, there will be weeks where I simply don't log in at all.... I'll eventually cancel my subscription, because why pay if I am only playing occasionally, and then, eventually, it will be so much effort to get a viable toon together when I log in after a couple of months, I simply won't bother.

The game does not die from people loudly slamming doors and shouting their departure from the nearest rooftop, it dies one bored and frustrated player at a time, over months.

Celephantsylvius_Bornasfinmo · July 2022

I roamed around the end game community for years and had quite a bit of fun on PC EU, but to be honest I didn't enjoy it in the last few years due to the technical setting and some human interactions too.

During the pandemic I had a go at some raid groups thinking I would check out some of the latest raids:

I tried some 'upcoming groups' and got this sort of vibe (Just your average progression group/nothing special):
- Don't talk (at all)
- Don't give tips
- Many inside jokes you have to just bare with (hey that's life)
- Bad attitude/grumpy members who never seem to be spoken to and block others from joining (antisocial/frustrated)

I used to put a lot of effort into making all players feel welcome to my own past guild structures and also trying to pinpoint their strengths and weaknesses in a polite/respectful setting. I haven't found an equivalent since I stopped. It may sound 'biased and narcissistic', but it's hard to find an 'in between' in this game (focused/friendly) and it's been like that for a long time.

I don't think raiding is in a great place a the moment (opinion)

Ragnarok0130 · July 2022

maxjapank wrote: »

I see so many under 800 cp players. So I suspect that if some veterans quit, then they will just be replaced.

The issue with that is the "brain drain" where the raiding knowledge base and practical expertise to train new raiders is severely reduced so people have to learn all over again via trial and error (no pun intended). This happened with Morrowind, and took several years to recover from and the current situation looks like a repeat of Morrowind. But hey at least we can choose the Morrowind theme music on the title screen to get the full nostalgia effect.

jtm1018 · July 2022

Change.

Change never change.

The only thing that is permanent is change.