It was stated that the entire community is having a "knee-jerk reaction" and is "scared of change", so the community's concerns were dismissed as of now. We will see what happens in the coming weeks of testing, but as of now ZOS does not seem to be listening. Hopefully I am wrong.

Some members of the community are putting out great information and showing that the changes are not great, so ZOS should take some time and read everything.

Well, would you not say that there are 25 times more casual players than elite players anyway?

Hurbster wrote: »

Well, would you not say that there are 25 times more casual players than elite players anyway?

To answer the question you asked, yes. Though to be honest, depending on the definition of casual, that number is probably much higher than 25:1.

To dig a bit deeper, the vast majority of casual players play the game for a bit here or there, enjoying the questing and exploration, maybe running a random normal occasionally then logging off and being done. Not here, not on reddit not thinking about the game at all so have no opportunity or desire to be toxic about anything.

Once you slice that chuck off of the casual player base I think the numbers do become much closer, and from here my point still stands. There seems to be a rather large group of people who are happy to see their own game experience get worse but are happy because it is ruining someone else's game too (or potentially more). While for the most part end game players aren't really thinking about the casual players, unless they are interacting with them for a specific reason, and if that interaction is negative it's usually because of the specific interaction not because of how the player enjoys playing the game.

I can only speak for myself, but I have seen a bunch of other people share similar thoughts here and on other platforms. For the record I think I am a mid-tier, maybe high end of mid-tier, PvE end game player. I have can hit 100k on a perfect parse; I have completed vKA HM, the first 2 SS Dragons on HM, Oax on HM but I haven't pushed any of those further and I have known for a while that vet DLC trifectas are not a reasonable goal for me.

I am not quitting because of any specific thing that was introduced last week. I agree with a lot of the mission statements that came with the 8.1.0 notes.

I am quitting because I will not spend any more time, money or energy on a game where a main part of the dev team appears to have no clue what they are doing, both short term and long term. I am not, and have never been, a software developer but I cannot imagine how anyone, much less a team of people, can think what was proposed on the 11th was a good idea much less would actually solve the problems they think need solved. It hurts the wrong people, it makes the game significantly less fun and continues a run of insane up-and-down back-and-forth yo-yo dev decisions on combat over the last handful of years. I don't know (and don't care at this point) if it was the same combat team but I will never forget a series of "balance" patches from a few years ago where they buffed MagDK with a dev comment that MagDK had historically underperformed. 3 months later, in the very next "balance" patch they nerfed MagDK so hard that they were worse than they ever were when they were "historically underperforming". To be clear I have played MagDK enough to have 1 at max level but have less than 30 hours on the character, so this is not me being mad at them nerfing my favorite toon.

I have no idea how an 8 year old game can be making 40%+ adjustments to core skills that have been in the game since launch. How can anyone support a game that is so direction-less and vision-less that core skills that have been in the game for 8 years can be in a state that they need buffed or nerfed by 40%? How can I trust a game where the senior creative leadership team is not only out of touch with their player base, but openly and publicly antagonistic towards them?

The numbers and classes and specific details of this PTS patch are irrelevant, except that they show that the senior creative leadership and the combat team are not up to the job of running and maintaining a game I want to play and support.

Sergykid wrote: »

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

p00tx wrote: »

We're usually going for the speed run, which is often 30 minutes or less, so it's not really toxic or elitist to ask the the run come in under 30 minutes, which is a prerequisite to get the trifecta achievement. Don't blame us (or call us names, not helpful at all), blame the people who made the content what it is and gave us the speed run achievement option.

I think some people are forgetting that this game is supposed to be played how you want. It means that people like you should be able to do what they want without being accused of gatekeeping.
It's really disturbing how this whole debacle turned into a crusade against "elitists", people like Nefas and Skinny Cheeks are getting a lot of hate, apparently.

nobody accuses others of gatekeeping, everyone plays how they want.
but if you look for people for a trifecta, and that trifecta can be completed by someone with 80-90k dps, you don't take him because he's too low dps for your preferences, then go and complain that there's nobody to do a trifecta with, then this is when you can be accused of gatekeeping.

Um... Yes, you are accusing them of gatekeeping.
Which trifectas are we talking about? There are some hardmodes that can be done with lower dps, but the strategies you have to use are different and can't be used for trifectas.
Even in old trials such as Cloudrest it's very difficult to do it with this kind of dps. I know that because I've tried progging it with a social guild, all dds had around 60-80k. Portal dds would often fail portals (not killing crystals fast enough) and creepers were alive for too long. Not to mention that 80k on a dummy usually translated to 20k in the actual fight. So I don't think you can get this trifecta with 80-90k. Maybe it's technically possible, but it would take literal months of practice until everyone can do the mechanics perfectly, and that is not a very fun experience.
You will probably say that it was beaten in Summerset patch with similar dps, but those who could do it were insanely skilled players. Average players simply don't have this kind of team synergy and situational awareness.
Raid leaders often set high requirements for hms/trifectas because they don't want to spend months wiping on the same boss. As someone who's tried progging with low/no requirement teams, I tend to agree. It's just not a great experience for everyone involved.

there's a difference between what i wrote, i don't accuse of gatekeeping. I said that those people that do it, are those that say they don't have who to run with, but refuse to take anything lower than optimal even though it would suffice for that content, just because he can't do without cheesing mechanics with high dps. I already explained some things in post #20 in this thread. Godslayer able people are not lying around waiting for someone to search for them. You need to find those people with potential for it and run with them, but this kind of people are gatekeeped by those people that refuse to take them because they are not GS able since the start.

Isn't the whole idea of trifecta to do something perfectly? You can do trials and even hardmodes without fully optimizing your build and gameplay, but it's weird to expect trifecta teams to accept people who can do bare minimum. Yes, raiders recruit and train newer players. But trifecta progression groups aren't training grounds for new players, even with really good and experienced players it takes weeks.
I'm also really unsure if it's even possible to do Godslayer with 80-90k. It was done in Elsweyr patch with a lot of stamcros, and the timing was really tight. You'd probably need stronger dds to be able to consistently kill the eternal servant, that's for sure. I haven't done Godslayer prog, but my friends did, and it's really demanding.

and for your Cloudrest example, i think that is the most forgiving trial for low dps. I have almost 90k on a dummy using falsegod and i can safely do GH, i once did +3 with personal no death, i safely can do a +1 solo portal but for +2/+3 i didn't get the chance to see how well i would do, and guess what nobody wants to take a 90k dd in a GH attempt even though in actual content i do almost as and sometimes more than those with over 100k parses. This trial is more about prioritizing focus and moving around than bursting down everything.

That is why I brought this up.
I also have personal nodeath in some hms, and I don't think it always means you're eligible for trifecta teams. It's easier to survive with slower strategies (for example, sending 2 dds into portal), and they won't necessarily want to use them.
Also if you can do 90k in old gear, you could just farm new equipment and break 100k. With that and hm logs, you're very likely to be invited. Or you can start your own group with low requirements (though like I said, it's probably gonna be painful with all dds doing 80-90k).

also trifectas are more about just high numbers, it's between bosses traveling, trash packs stacking, etc. During a boss fight, how fast you complete mechanics rather than how fast you kill ads. I didn't do hardmode for dreadsail or rockgrove, if those have much harder checks then it's on ZOS part. I don't say to waste time with people that are too far from achieving those, but to actually try and gather those people that have the potential to do it. A prog now is about getting ready people to complete rather than finding ready people to complete.

Trifectas are all that+ high numbers. Strategies evolve and improve based on player's power.

Casdha wrote: »

Just to show I did what I said I would do and give my personal results.

I did a quick run through Fungal Grotto 1 and it was about what I expected which is not much difference at all and about what I said except I was a little off on multiple targets. I would hit 80k+ on the trash crab adds in the middle and the end so a little higher than the 70k I stated (for some reason I was thinking Brawler maxed on 6 targets but it must be a couple more). I still got around 90% of health on shields for max targets as well so no change for me.

Now try it on vet.

maxjapank wrote: »

I watched the video. I support players who help others and those who try to tackle end game challenges. But I don’t support “carries.” Carries are not really about helping players get better. It’s just making gold off of others who cannot do content for titles and skins. Sure, I reckon there is a market for this. But a discord or group leaving over this becoming more difficult is okay in my eyes.

I also think his “toxic casuals” remark was way out of line. There are toxic players spread throughout the entire player base from casuals to elites. It was ver telling watching his chat complain about toxic casuals, and yet being completely clueless at how the words they were using were toxic, too. Players need to quit this in game fighting.

I do support Nefas. Overall he’s been a positive streamer and deserves more praise. Hope he gets some rest mentally.

Carries can absolutely 100% be helpful to a player's progression. The vast majority of carry runs are not title, skin, or achievement runs, but gear runs. When I transferred from Xbox to PC, I had an overwhelming amount of gear to farm on top of the CP grind to get to a place where I could raid effectively again at my level. I had a healing spot waiting for me on PC on a raid team, and I just needed gear to be ready. My raidlead, who was established enough already to have the gold to do it, kindly bought a couple of gear carries for me to get the gear I needed to step into my new spot. Once I was able to trade a bunch of stuff from my Xbox account in exchange for more PC gold, I was able to buy more carries to round out my needs. I didn't "need" the carries per se, since I was more than capable of running the content, as are a good amount of our current buyers, but it was an incredible convenience that I was willing to pay for. Without them, my team would have been set back quite a while while I farmed that gear.

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

Well, not every raid group sells carries.
It might be a controversial practice, but it does not affect your chances to join a group. When you hire them, you literally just buy one run. They aren't selling group/guild spots.
Some people believe that if they buy a run, they can pretend that they did these trials normally and get an invite to a dedicated raiding guild. But this community is very small, and it would be very diffiucult for someone to hide that they bought their achievements. Not to mention that dedicated guilds would ask you to show logs to prove your experience.

Speaking as someone who has done a fair few carries, the carry discords know when these folks spam their clears around and try to pass them off as legitimate. It rarely if ever goes well for them, especially a lot of the higher-end carries like GS.

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

Well, not every raid group sells carries.
It might be a controversial practice, but it does not affect your chances to join a group. When you hire them, you literally just buy one run. They aren't selling group/guild spots.
Some people believe that if they buy a run, they can pretend that they did these trials normally and get an invite to a dedicated raiding guild. But this community is very small, and it would be very diffiucult for someone to hide that they bought their achievements. Not to mention that dedicated guilds would ask you to show logs to prove your experience.

Speaking as someone who has done a fair few carries, the carry discords know when these folks spam their clears around and try to pass them off as legitimate. It rarely if ever goes well for them, especially a lot of the higher-end carries like GS.

Thanks for confirmation, that's what I suspected.

Yeah, I'm not aware of any list that tracks which clears were prog vs carry, but it's generally easy to tell when someone joins a group if they know what they're doing or if the title/achievement does not match ability. That being said, I've played with some people that initially paid for skins or gear, then later became skilled enough to pull their weight in the same content.

Yes people are leaving the game because of 35. I'm looking myself, just not sure where everyone is going.

As to the rest of it, I could generally care less. People ask for bites all day long in chat and say they will pay. I'll go over, bite them and then refuse to take the money.

I also know newbs and very skilled players. All of them quite nice. When I ask the more experienced people how to do something, their critical observations are not some form of elitism. They are just telling me how it is.