Competitive Players: The Most Mistreated ESO Demographic

Ragnarok0130 · July 2022

Pevey wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

I would like a story mode also. One that allows completion of the dungeon but with no rewards or set gear drops. Just a chance to roam around and experience the story. I'm thinking the problem with providing this might have to do with how many instances it might create?

Then maybe the devs could simply tie transmutes to something other than normal random dungeons. Raiders use a crazy number of transmutes, and it creates a situation where the demographic normal dungeons are targeted toward (beginners and players who do not like to do combat) are mixed in with the high damage dealers who burn through content. The skill gap is natural, but it becomes glaring and contentious really only in normal dungeons. And that is only because of the rewards attached to them.

I never understood why transmutes to reconstruct gear was ever a thing, change the trait on an item sure but not reconstruct gear. If we have the sticker book and the device to reconstruct gear why curtail the player's ability to reconstruct the gear at all? It does nothing but stop people from trying new builds or gear combinations. with an artificial limit of how many transmutes we have. Frankly I'm surprised that ZoS never tried to sell transmutes in the crown store to solve the issue they intentionally created.

Ragnarok0130 · July 2022

Arunei wrote: »

EdmondDontes wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

Riptide wrote: »

*chuckle, are those normal achievements or vet, I don’t pay much attention to them.

Anyway, there is no sense in me wading into a mudslinging, but I’ll say this - overland being so easy that it must be endured to go through is because this was not what we bought and paid for.

In the alpha, beta, and first years we put early money and time into the game and it was made into a farce, particularly with companions.

Now if you want challenging content you have to artificially weaken yourself, live in exactly two solo arenas, or do group content.

Rather than them adding an optional vet overland mode which would deliver on the service we tested and invested in, it is left to languish and card games are built.

Whats more is, for those that do not care for the mechanics and difficulty of vet DLC dungeons and so on have all that challenge channeled there, and feel like content is out of reach to them. I’m not really sure why, normal mode exists, but that is the sentiment I see.

And at the core of if, after pages and pages of back and forth the sentiment you always get to from folks who seem to carry some unhealthy dislike of endgame players is “lump it”. And big shrug to that.

Not what you bought and paid for? Funny, a lot of people who can't do harder content also probably want to be able to clear everything in a game they also bought and paid for. Or is your money somehow worth more?

People seem to think that someone who paid for the game doesn't have the right to all the content in that game. I personally find that mindset selfish. If someone wants to be able to get the Skin or a Personality from a Vet HM Dungeon, they 100% have the right to that item because they bought the game. Sure, make it something people might need to work for, but at the end of the day this is a game. Why do people honestly think there should be any content in this game that is out of reach to anyone?

And please don't give me the same tired "everyone can do it with enough practice and if you can't it's just because you're lazy" excuse. There are any number of reasons legitimately keeping people from being able to do content that requires 80k+ DPS, and dismissing all of them as laziness is shallow-minded and rude.

This game shouldn't cater to the top 1% who can melt everything in 2 seconds. If people want a game that provides a hardcore challenge there are plenty of other games that offer them. It's not a bad thing for ZOS to want to make it so more people can access more of the game they paid for. Now if they could just do it in a way that doesn't screw over the ones they claim to want to lift up, that'd be great.

Edit to add that you're either overlooking or purposefully forgetting that a lot of rewards come from Vet and HM Dungeons/Trials, like Dyes and other Collectibles you can't get on Normal. Yet you can't see why people would want to do those Dungeons/Trials?

Catering to the casual questers and those more interested in housing than playing the game is slowly gutting ESO. And it's destroying what used to be the best PvP in the gaming industry.

So making the game more accessible to a wider audience is gutting the game? Why? This again just sounds like a selfish sentiment. It reads as "I don't want people to be able to have fun because they aren't a top player".

I believe it is a matter of there's only so much of developer time/money to go around so when ZoS puts money/time/resources into one area of the game (and the areas he mentioned get a lot of attention) others such as PVP or new classes or skill lines aren't given development resources. I like how the game's evolved overall since 2014 with the exception of certain balance changes, however ZoS definitely needs to balance out their focus and give other end game areas of the game some much needed attention like PVP and more dungeons and trials.

Stamicka · July 2022

chessalavakia_ESO wrote: »

The problem is the way you want to play has a tendency to ruin the game for yourself, ruin the game for others, or ineffectively expend resources in any game that is not primarily competitive.

This is part of what’s wrong with how the community treats competitive players. You’re blaming us for ruining the game for others? My idea of a good time may be different from yours, but that’s an unfair statement.

You also state that the game is not primarily competitive. Yea maybe not NOW, but you understand that many competitive players have been around since 2015 and back right? ESO used to have a bigger PvP focus and much harder content all around. If ESO released as the extremely casual game that it is today, then sure, maybe it would be silly to expect some resources from the devs. However, many of us were drawn to the difficulty and the PvP, and it’s almost all been taken away. All we want is the the very thing that kept us around in the first place.

As much as I hate overland, I wouldn’t call it a waste of resources because I know some people enjoy it. Yet you call competitive content a waste of resources? Thanks for giving an example of competitive player mistreatment.

LordDragonMara · July 2022

Stamicka wrote: »

As the reasoning behind recent update 35 changes have been revealed, one thing is made clear: ZOS wants to make Veteran content more accessible to a wider variety of players. Ironically, 90% of ESO is basically inaccessible to competitive/ endgame players. Allow me to explain from the perspective of a competitive player.

First, I define a competitive/ endgame player as someone who likes to compete, either with themselves, or other players. Any player that seeks to optimize, to achieve, and that will improve their skills to accomplish their goals would fall under this umbrella. I use this term to include both PvPers and endgame PvErs. This demographic has been mistreated both by the devs and by the overall community. Let's explore some of the ways this is true.

The Majority of the Game is Inaccessible To Many Competitive Players
Ironically, it is the competitive players that the game is most inaccessible for. It is not common to see an endgame raider or competitive PvPer that frequently quests/fishes/explores/or engages in overland in any other way. Why? Because the difficulty of overland is so easy that the combat requires no effort and offers no threat of dying. Most normal content and overland simply isn't stimulating enough for competitive players to engage with it. It is so boring that to me that I genuinely consider it unplayable. However, this is the majority of the content within ESO and within each released chapter. Competitive players often buy entire chapters just to access the trial, or to get a new Mythic Item. These purchases hardly justify the price tag because the new zone itself will likely go unexplored/ uncompleted by them. Yet, the endgame players often buy the whole chapters anyway. The "exclusive" Veteran content is genuinely ALL that many of them have in ESO. Making this content easier will eventually make it basically inaccessible to the players that crave challenge. So maybe hard content is a bit exclusive, but casual players have THE REST OF THE ENTIRE GAME to play if they choose not to engage in hard content.

Competitive Players are Unjustifiably Demonized
Some people are just naturally competitive. If they do something, they like to optimize, they like to win, they like to be successful. Nothing is wrong with this, it is just a different way of playing the game. However, this doesn't stop competitive players from being labeled as "toxic meta chasers", "jerks", "exploiters", "elitists", and the list goes on and on. Many people automatically label competitive players as toxic, even though there's nothing innately toxic about being competitive. While it is true that some end game players are rude and toxic, it cannot be automatically assumed just because someone likes to optimize. Many competitive/ end game players will happily and kindly teach others how to play the game if asked. I can't tell you how many times I'm accused of "taking the game too seriously", "needing a life", and "needing to touch grass", just for doing well in a battleground or a dungeon. I have a life, I just like to play the game well (and as optimized as possible) when I do play. Outside of mistreatment by the overall community, the devs often use words with negative connotations to describe end game players. For example, end game players as stated by a dev, "manipulate" light attack weaving in order to succeed. This is an odd word choice which has negative undertones. Additionally, the devs do everything they can to take away from end game players, which leads me to my final point.

Competitive Players Lose Features, but Rarely Gain Them
Both PvPers and PvErs have been losing more features than they gain for several years now. If a competitive/ endgame players starts to utilize something ZOS adds to the game, it is swiftly taken away. Additionally, these types of players are backed into very small parts of the game that rarely see new features. Let's talk about what some individual groups have lost/ never gained.

The Competitive PvPers
As a group, the competitive PvPers have been thrown into the smallest corner of the game. They haven't seen new content in years, they're subjected to broken balance decisions, and on most servers, they don't even have a playable PvP environment. Cyrodiil has been unplayable while populated for many years. Players who like to do Battlegrounds, well they never got a proper leaderboard, they barely get rewards, they can't even choose their own game mode, and if they're especially competitive: they get insanely long queue times. This post would be far too long if I went on about all the ways that the PvPers are mistreated, but it is hard to deny that this is the case.

The Competitive PvErs
The competitive PVErs no longer see as many rewards for their hard earned achievements. The prestige behind many difficult to achieve PvE achievements has also been vastly reduced by content nerfs, or power creep. If Update 35 goes live, they will have lost their ability to beat their personal best scores because damage has been reduced.

Both PvPers and PvErs
Both groups have lost the ability to express their learned mastery over the games mechanics. This can be seen with many of the changes over recent years. Remember when bash weaving added small amounts of DPS (2k+)? Taken away. Remember when you could block and animation cancel ultimates? Taken away. Skills that stun and do damage? Taken away. Light attack weaving? Not taken away but heavily nerfed. Vampire toggle? Taken away. There is a definite pattern here. If competitive players start to utilize something or master a new aspect of the game, ZOS will quickly try to remove it.

Conclusion
The devs and the community should stop mistreating those who prefer to try hard and optimize. After all, we're just playing how we want, that's the point of the game right?

You are absolutely right mate.
Fully agree.

Freelancer_ESO · July 2022

Stamicka wrote: »

chessalavakia_ESO wrote: »

The problem is the way you want to play has a tendency to ruin the game for yourself, ruin the game for others, or ineffectively expend resources in any game that is not primarily competitive.

This is part of what’s wrong with how the community treats competitive players. You’re blaming us for ruining the game for others? My idea of a good time may be different from yours, but that’s an unfair statement.

You also state that the game is not primarily competitive. Yea maybe not NOW, but you understand that many competitive players have been around since 2015 and back right? ESO used to have a bigger PvP focus and much harder content all around. If ESO released as the extremely casual game that it is today, then sure, maybe it would be silly to expect some resources from the devs. However, many of us were drawn to the difficulty and the PvP, and it’s almost all been taken away. All we want is the the very thing that kept us around in the first place.

As much as I hate overland, I wouldn’t call it a waste of resources because I know some people enjoy it. Yet you call competitive content a waste of resources? Thanks for giving an example of competitive player mistreatment.

Competitive players want to be challenged but, they also want to push the game to it's limits and beyond.

This in turn produces a scenario where either the difficulty of the game constantly increases to keep up with competitive players limit pushing or the difficulty does not increase.

In the former case, if the game is not primarily aimed at a competitive audience the game gradually hits a position where it is ruined for the other people playing because it becomes too hard to be fun for them and is thus ruined.

In the latter case, it's ruined for competitive players as it will stop being a challenge.

Stamicka · July 2022

chessalavakia_ESO wrote: »

Stamicka wrote: »

chessalavakia_ESO wrote: »

The problem is the way you want to play has a tendency to ruin the game for yourself, ruin the game for others, or ineffectively expend resources in any game that is not primarily competitive.

This is part of what’s wrong with how the community treats competitive players. You’re blaming us for ruining the game for others? My idea of a good time may be different from yours, but that’s an unfair statement.

You also state that the game is not primarily competitive. Yea maybe not NOW, but you understand that many competitive players have been around since 2015 and back right? ESO used to have a bigger PvP focus and much harder content all around. If ESO released as the extremely casual game that it is today, then sure, maybe it would be silly to expect some resources from the devs. However, many of us were drawn to the difficulty and the PvP, and it’s almost all been taken away. All we want is the the very thing that kept us around in the first place.

As much as I hate overland, I wouldn’t call it a waste of resources because I know some people enjoy it. Yet you call competitive content a waste of resources? Thanks for giving an example of competitive player mistreatment.

Competitive players want to be challenged but, they also want to push the game to it's limits and beyond.

This in turn produces a scenario where either the difficulty of the game constantly increases to keep up with competitive players limit pushing or the difficulty does not increase.

In the former case, if the game is not primarily aimed at a competitive audience the game gradually hits a position where it is ruined for the other people playing because it becomes too hard to be fun for them and is thus ruined.

In the latter case, it's ruined for competitive players as it will stop being a challenge.

Nonsense. What are you even talking about? ESO’s difficulty is 100% optional. Other people never “have” to do difficult content in ESO, but it is there for those that want it. This is a win win for both sides. So even if Vet content gets harder and harder, Normal remains completable. ZOS is the one trying to mix both audiences.

Nomadic_Atmoran · July 2022

A difficulty slider/server post masquerading as a U35 blame game post.

You ever think about running for office OP? Theres a saying. Dont let a good tragedy go to waste. And Id say you have a knack for it.

renne · July 2022

Mixalis966 wrote: »

Competitive pvp never existed in eso because of performance issues.

Rubbish. The original endgame for the Elder Scrolls Online WAS PvP. There's been a number of periods in the last 8 years where performance issues didn't exist in PvP. Maybe not recently, but claiming competitive PvP has "never existed because of performance issues" is flat out wrong.

Tourist_McGee · July 2022

I like pvp when it's optional. I don't need to beat other players to to feel good about myself. i like harder dungeons, when it's optional. I love that overland is mostly casual allowing me to travel and harvest with little trouble from the locals. i would hate to see everthing suddenly become "bullet sponge" content that takes forever to run your button rotation over and over to kill it. That's not fun or engaging, that's just "harder" for the sake of creating a false sense of "challenge".

I just bought my first house in daggerfall and i'm super excited to decorate it. I'm the only person that will ever see it, but i'm okay with that. I like being able to run out do a few quests, run some delves to get money to get more patterns while i start saving for a bigger house.

I have social issues, so i solo everything, even a few group dungeons. Making overall content harder would only exclude me and a lot of other players from doing even more content.

There is already challenging content for the elitists, let us carebear casuals enjoy what we have. Not eveything has to be super hard.

I don't want to be a jerk, but honestly, instead of crying foul because this game is too easy for you, mayhap you aught to be looking for another game? There are plenty of games out there that exist soley for the purpose of kicking your teeth in and giving you the endless hard mode you so desperately want.

Amphithoe · July 2022

The question is; does the game need to cater to every type of player?

I don't bother with end game content. I'm mainly a singe player gamer. ESO to me is about questing, exploring the world and collecting furniture and crafting materials.

I only play the game when there's a drought between the types of game I normally play, and ESO does a good enough job for providing a SP experience and I'm grateful for that.

The way I see it is that ESO is trying to cater to every type of player, and in this pursuit they create constant conflict between different groups of players. And things wont change until they commit to something.

Riptide · July 2022

Not what you bought and paid for? Funny, a lot of people who can't do harder content also probably want to be able to clear everything in a game they also bought and paid for. Or is your money somehow worth more?

You and the other poster who said they like overland just as it is skipped right over the word “optional” I used for “veteran overland content”.

You are not the only ones, by a long shot. The most vocal folks on your side of the issue all seem to, until you say it over, and over, and over, and over until they finally, only finally acknowledge what from the get you were saying. And usually even then give it short shrift that you never, at any time, wanted to ruin their fun in order to enhance your own.

Merely to please all parties.

But that kind of obstinate ignoring of the word “optional” and all it implies, etc is why lots of us just flat do not value these forums very much. At some point you start to wonder at people who do that sort of thing, and get worn out of debating them

geekboy09 · July 2022

Tourist_McGee wrote: »

I like pvp when it's optional. I don't need to beat other players to to feel good about myself. i like harder dungeons, when it's optional. I love that overland is mostly casual allowing me to travel and harvest with little trouble from the locals. i would hate to see everthing suddenly become "bullet sponge" content that takes forever to run your button rotation over and over to kill it. That's not fun or engaging, that's just "harder" for the sake of creating a false sense of "challenge".

I just bought my first house in daggerfall and i'm super excited to decorate it. I'm the only person that will ever see it, but i'm okay with that. I like being able to run out do a few quests, run some delves to get money to get more patterns while i start saving for a bigger house.

I have social issues, so i solo everything, even a few group dungeons. Making overall content harder would only exclude me and a lot of other players from doing even more content.

There is already challenging content for the elitists, let us carebear casuals enjoy what we have. Not eveything has to be super hard.

I don't want to be a jerk, but honestly, instead of crying foul because this game is too easy for you, mayhap you aught to be looking for another game? There are plenty of games out there that exist soley for the purpose of kicking your teeth in and giving you the endless hard mode you so desperately want.

your post is very alienating

Browiseth · July 2022

Stamicka wrote: »

Competitive Players are Unjustifiably Demonized
Some people are just naturally competitive. If they do something, they like to optimize, they like to win, they like to be successful. Nothing is wrong with this, it is just a different way of playing the game. However, this doesn't stop competitive players from being labeled as "toxic meta chasers", "jerks", "exploiters", "elitists", and the list goes on and on. Many people automatically label competitive players as toxic, even though there's nothing innately toxic about being competitive. While it is true that some end game players are rude and toxic, it cannot be automatically assumed just because someone likes to optimize. Many competitive/ end game players will happily and kindly teach others how to play the game if asked. I can't tell you how many times I'm accused of "taking the game too seriously", "needing a life", and "needing to touch grass", just for doing well in a battleground or a dungeon. I have a life, I just like to play the game well (and as optimized as possible) when I do play. Outside of mistreatment by the overall community, the devs often use words with negative connotations to describe end game players. For example, end game players as stated by a dev, "manipulate" light attack weaving in order to succeed. This is an odd word choice which has negative undertones. Additionally, the devs do everything they can to take away from end game players, which leads me to my final point.

this whole section really resonated with me. a common sentiment i often see in casual players is that they "just want to play the game and have fun", as if to imply that competitive, skilled or "tryhard" players somehow don't have fun playing the way they do. its this interesting hypocrisy i see casual players exhibiting, "just play the way you want! unless you play differently to me, then you're toxic"

alanmatillab16_ESO · July 2022

Tourist_McGee wrote: »

...

I don't want to be a jerk, but honestly, instead of crying foul because this game is too easy for you, mayhap you aught to be looking for another game? There are plenty of games out there that exist soley for the purpose of kicking your teeth in and giving you the endless hard mode you so desperately want.

Following your line of logic one could also say "I don't want to be a jerk, but honestly, instead of crying foul because this game is too hard for you, mayhap you aught to be looking for another game? There are plenty of games out there that exist soley for the purpose of holding your hand and giving you the endless easy mode you so desperately want"

What that line of argument doesnt take into account is in both cases those "other games" are not ESO. We are here to play ESO not Hello Barney Online or Dark Souls Online.

SilverBride · July 2022

I don't play veteran content or PvP because I don't enjoy them. I just participate in the parts I do enjoy and accept that not all aspects of the game will appeal to every player.

Having different types of content that appeals to different play styles is not mistreatment.

Stamicka · July 2022

SilverBride wrote: »

I don't play veteran content or PvP because I don't enjoy them. I just participate in the parts I do enjoy and accept that not all aspects of the game will appeal to every player.

Having different types of content that appeals to different play styles is not mistreatment.

That wasn't really ever an argument I made. I don't play overland content (as I stated) because I don't enjoy it. The underlining context here is that Zenimax is trying to make Veteran Content easily doable by more casual players. The way that they've gone about doing this is by making huge changes to the combat system. When announcing the logic behind their changes, they stated that they wanted to lower the "obscene" damage on the high end and bump up the low end.

This idea failed all around (that's a different discussion), but the devs clearly stated that the high end was their target. This part is the recent mistreatment, but as stated in the original post, there's a long history of mistreatment.

You are absolutely right that different content appeals to different players. So why does Veteran Content need to appeal to more casual players? ESPECIALLY at the expense of the existing endgame players enjoyment? The very small portion of the game that appeals to competitive players is slowly being nerfed/ taken away.

SilverBride · July 2022

Stamicka wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I don't play veteran content or PvP because I don't enjoy them. I just participate in the parts I do enjoy and accept that not all aspects of the game will appeal to every player.

Having different types of content that appeals to different play styles is not mistreatment.

That wasn't really ever an argument I made. I don't play overland content (as I stated) because I don't enjoy it. The underlining context here is that Zenimax is trying to make Veteran Content easily doable by more casual players. The way that they've gone about doing this is by making huge changes to the combat system. When announcing the logic behind their changes, they stated that they wanted to lower the "obscene" damage on the high end and bump up the low end.

This idea failed all around (that's a different discussion), but the devs clearly stated that the high end was their target. This part is the recent mistreatment, but as stated in the original post, there's a long history of mistreatment.

You are absolutely right that different content appeals to different players. So why does Veteran Content need to appeal to more casual players? ESPECIALLY at the expense of the existing endgame players enjoyment? The very small portion of the game that appeals to competitive players is slowly being nerfed/ taken away.

Veteran content may already appeal to a lot of casual players, but because they can't meet the damage requirements that are expected to even be allowed into a group they are being denied access to this content.

Stamicka · July 2022

SilverBride wrote: »

Stamicka wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I don't play veteran content or PvP because I don't enjoy them. I just participate in the parts I do enjoy and accept that not all aspects of the game will appeal to every player.

Having different types of content that appeals to different play styles is not mistreatment.

That wasn't really ever an argument I made. I don't play overland content (as I stated) because I don't enjoy it. The underlining context here is that Zenimax is trying to make Veteran Content easily doable by more casual players. The way that they've gone about doing this is by making huge changes to the combat system. When announcing the logic behind their changes, they stated that they wanted to lower the "obscene" damage on the high end and bump up the low end.

This idea failed all around (that's a different discussion), but the devs clearly stated that the high end was their target. This part is the recent mistreatment, but as stated in the original post, there's a long history of mistreatment.

You are absolutely right that different content appeals to different players. So why does Veteran Content need to appeal to more casual players? ESPECIALLY at the expense of the existing endgame players enjoyment? The very small portion of the game that appeals to competitive players is slowly being nerfed/ taken away.

Veteran content may already appeal to a lot of casual players, but because they can't meet the damage requirements that are expected to even be allowed into a group they are being denied access to this content.

Newer Veteran Content requires a player to put up with continuous wiping, to learn from their deaths, and to parse on a dummy to improve DPS. Many casual players just say "well, I don't want to play this game as a second job! I'm not doing that!." In that case, Veteran Content does not actually appeal to you because all the things I mentioned are an aspect of Veteran Content. This aspect is not removable either. If Vet Content is made too easy, either by increasing the power of a player too much, or by removing mechanics from the content, then it basically becomes Normal Content. In that case, why not just do Normal Content to begin with? How is one interested in Veteran Content without being interested in challenging themselves and improving?

No one is being "denied access" to content, you are being denied access to a group. In this case, you must find like minded players that place less emphasis on DPS, but that want to do Vet Content. That is the purpose of progression groups.

SilverBride · July 2022

Stamicka wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Stamicka wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I don't play veteran content or PvP because I don't enjoy them. I just participate in the parts I do enjoy and accept that not all aspects of the game will appeal to every player.

Having different types of content that appeals to different play styles is not mistreatment.

That wasn't really ever an argument I made. I don't play overland content (as I stated) because I don't enjoy it. The underlining context here is that Zenimax is trying to make Veteran Content easily doable by more casual players. The way that they've gone about doing this is by making huge changes to the combat system. When announcing the logic behind their changes, they stated that they wanted to lower the "obscene" damage on the high end and bump up the low end.

This idea failed all around (that's a different discussion), but the devs clearly stated that the high end was their target. This part is the recent mistreatment, but as stated in the original post, there's a long history of mistreatment.

You are absolutely right that different content appeals to different players. So why does Veteran Content need to appeal to more casual players? ESPECIALLY at the expense of the existing endgame players enjoyment? The very small portion of the game that appeals to competitive players is slowly being nerfed/ taken away.

Veteran content may already appeal to a lot of casual players, but because they can't meet the damage requirements that are expected to even be allowed into a group they are being denied access to this content.

Newer Veteran Content requires a player to put up with continuous wiping, to learn from their deaths, and to parse on a dummy to improve DPS. Many casual players just say "well, I don't want to play this game as a second job! I'm not doing that!." In that case, Veteran Content does not actually appeal to you because all the things I mentioned are an aspect of Veteran Content. This aspect is not removable either. If Vet Content is made too easy, either by increasing the power of a player too much, or by removing mechanics from the content, then it basically becomes Normal Content. In that case, why not just do Normal Content to begin with? How is one interested in Veteran Content without being interested in challenging themselves and improving?

No one is being "denied access" to content, you are being denied access to a group. In this case, you must find like minded players that place less emphasis on DPS, but that want to do Vet Content. That is the purpose of progression groups.

The most logical thing for a player who is wanting to get into veteran content to do is to join an established end game guild. But they are being denied admission because their damage isn't in the range that update 35 is meant to correct. It does not make sense for an inexperienced player to group solely with other inexperienced players and expect to progress.

Stamicka · July 2022

SilverBride wrote: »

Stamicka wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Stamicka wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I don't play veteran content or PvP because I don't enjoy them. I just participate in the parts I do enjoy and accept that not all aspects of the game will appeal to every player.

Having different types of content that appeals to different play styles is not mistreatment.

That wasn't really ever an argument I made. I don't play overland content (as I stated) because I don't enjoy it. The underlining context here is that Zenimax is trying to make Veteran Content easily doable by more casual players. The way that they've gone about doing this is by making huge changes to the combat system. When announcing the logic behind their changes, they stated that they wanted to lower the "obscene" damage on the high end and bump up the low end.

This idea failed all around (that's a different discussion), but the devs clearly stated that the high end was their target. This part is the recent mistreatment, but as stated in the original post, there's a long history of mistreatment.

You are absolutely right that different content appeals to different players. So why does Veteran Content need to appeal to more casual players? ESPECIALLY at the expense of the existing endgame players enjoyment? The very small portion of the game that appeals to competitive players is slowly being nerfed/ taken away.

Veteran content may already appeal to a lot of casual players, but because they can't meet the damage requirements that are expected to even be allowed into a group they are being denied access to this content.

Newer Veteran Content requires a player to put up with continuous wiping, to learn from their deaths, and to parse on a dummy to improve DPS. Many casual players just say "well, I don't want to play this game as a second job! I'm not doing that!." In that case, Veteran Content does not actually appeal to you because all the things I mentioned are an aspect of Veteran Content. This aspect is not removable either. If Vet Content is made too easy, either by increasing the power of a player too much, or by removing mechanics from the content, then it basically becomes Normal Content. In that case, why not just do Normal Content to begin with? How is one interested in Veteran Content without being interested in challenging themselves and improving?

No one is being "denied access" to content, you are being denied access to a group. In this case, you must find like minded players that place less emphasis on DPS, but that want to do Vet Content. That is the purpose of progression groups.

The most logical thing for a player who is wanting to get into veteran content to do is to join an established end game guild. But they are being denied admission because their damage isn't in the range that update 35 is meant to correct. It does not make sense for an inexperienced player to group solely with other inexperienced players and expect to progress.

This might be the most ridiculous thing I've ever read on the forums. How do you think I and many other current end game raiders started in the first place? How do you think groups clear new content for the first time? How do you think raiding became a thing to begin with?

At some point, inexperienced players got with other inexperienced players, and they all learned together. This happens all the time. In fact, what you are describing wouldn't help you learn at all, it would be a carry since 11 other experienced people are doing all the work.

There is nothing wrong with a group having requirements. There's a reason almost everything in life has requirements as well. Jobs have requirements, colleges have requirements, driving has requirements, the list goes on and on. They make sure that everyone is on the same page so stuff can actually get done.

Riptide · July 2022

If you have little concept of what prog groups are and its only curbstomp overland or be carried, well.

And you can bet thats at the foundation of why those folks pretend to not see the “optional” when seeing people ask for harder modes.

It isn’t just that they don’t want the content they play to not be harder.

They want ready access to the people that do harder content so they can be carried by them if there is something they want from that content.

SilverBride · July 2022

Stamicka wrote: »

How do you think I and many other current end game raiders started in the first place? How do you think groups clear new content for the first time?

Many of these players have been actively raiding for a long time and experienced multiple different trials through the years. As they progressed to new content they had the benefit of the experience they gained along the way, along with gear from these trials.

Players new to raiding cannot be expected to go into current trials with no experience and no gear and succeed. I'm not saying it couldn't happen but they would be greatly disadvantaged as compared to joining an experienced and established group.

spartaxoxo · July 2022

Almost every Prog I've seen is a mix of inexperienced players and experienced players. Typically the raid leads and guild leaders teach new people how to play.

Anyway, I do think that the ceiling needs to be lowered so that ESO has a good upper middle level of play. Right now 50k DPS completely trivializes content, and you do not get to that level of dps without practice. The idea that this is being done for people who won't practice is total nonsense. They aren't trying to get the 10k DPS who's never seen a trial dummy into vKA. They are trying to get the 50k DPS that hit a wall after practicing for hours into it because they do in fact have enough DPS to get a regular vet clear but aren't being invited due to the power gap.

This game has the most unhealthiest raid completion rate I've ever seen. Top 5% of the playerbase should be able to complete vet DLC trials, not top .1%.

This update however swings way too far in the other direction. It not only actually exacerbates the issue it's trying to solve but is also too harsh on high end DPS .

Stamicka · July 2022

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Almost every Prog I've seen is a mix of inexperienced players and experienced players. Typically the raid leads and guild leaders teach new people how to play.

Anyway, I do think that the ceiling needs to be lowered so that ESO has a good upper middle level of play. Right now 50k DPS completely trivializes content, and you do not get to that level of dps without practice. The idea that this is being done for people who won't practice is total nonsense. They aren't trying to get the 10k DPS who's never seen a trial dummy into vKA. They are trying to get the 50k DPS that hit a wall after practicing for hours into it because they do in fact have enough DPS to get a regular vet clear but aren't being invited due to the power gap.

This game has the most unhealthiest raid completion rate I've ever seen. Top 5% of the playerbase should be able to complete vet DLC trials, not top .1%.

This update however swings way too far in the other direction. It not only actually exacerbates the issue it's trying to solve but is also too harsh on high end DPS .

Lots of people who play ESO are attracted to the Elder Scrolls portion and not the MMORPG portion. I don’t think you should compare it’s completion rates to other MMOs for that reason.

langewapper · July 2022

Stamicka

if you want more challenges ask ZOS to remove the anti solo mechanics in most dungeons
(like pushing 4 levers and so)
so you can do vet dungeons solo
good for high level end players who want more challenges

but ZOS dont want you to do them solo

merevie · July 2022

As a Pvpr, I appreciate the blood, sweat, tears and math that the best of the best of the Pve community have had to put in to perform at the highest level. Liko, Nefas and Skinny have been gold -without them I wouldn't have basic Pve content done.

THANK YOU! I do not advocate touching even a fragment of what is precious to our endgame Pvers.

I no more expect to be able to rip through endgame pve content than I'd expect them to survive turning in their event keys in Imperial City.

And that's just fine.

alanmatillab16_ESO · July 2022

SilverBride wrote: »

Veteran content may already appeal to a lot of casual players, but because they can't meet the damage requirements that are expected to even be allowed into a group they are being denied access to this content.

They are not denied access to the content, they are free to form their own group and attempt that content therefore they have access to it.

morrowjen · July 2022

Stamicka wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Almost every Prog I've seen is a mix of inexperienced players and experienced players. Typically the raid leads and guild leaders teach new people how to play.

Anyway, I do think that the ceiling needs to be lowered so that ESO has a good upper middle level of play. Right now 50k DPS completely trivializes content, and you do not get to that level of dps without practice. The idea that this is being done for people who won't practice is total nonsense. They aren't trying to get the 10k DPS who's never seen a trial dummy into vKA. They are trying to get the 50k DPS that hit a wall after practicing for hours into it because they do in fact have enough DPS to get a regular vet clear but aren't being invited due to the power gap.

This game has the most unhealthiest raid completion rate I've ever seen. Top 5% of the playerbase should be able to complete vet DLC trials, not top .1%.

This update however swings way too far in the other direction. It not only actually exacerbates the issue it's trying to solve but is also too harsh on high end DPS .

Lots of people who play ESO are attracted to the Elder Scrolls portion and not the MMORPG portion. I don’t think you should compare it’s completion rates to other MMOs for that reason.

Are we even sure that's the completion rate? Where does that number come from? I'm fairly certain that I'm not in the top .1% of anything and I ran both vSS and vDSR this evening with slightly different groups (except for a few of us, different people in each run). vSS was cleared fairly easily since everyone already had a clear and we're preparing to start a HM prog. The vDSR run was more of a struggle as it was billed as simply a training run and we had less experience. To be honest I didn't expect us to clear the training run and was only expecting to collect some gear but a lot of us got our first vDSR clear this evening.

As to your last point I think I have a somewhat unique point of view and set of experiences... ESO was my first MMO and I really didn't want anything to do with it. I came from TES and love the Elder Scrolls world and its lore and am a fan of the singleplayer experience. For several years, I did very little group content at all. I didn't set foot in a dungeon and treated the game very much like an online version of Skyrim. I didn't know what dps meant or what a tank was and couldn't understand the terms and acronyms I saw in zone chat. At present, I have a vet clear of every trial, a couple of HMs, and some +1s and +2s.

The learning curve was huge and a lot of players will never make the jump as they're perfectly happy to remain in overland content and doing quests but it's more than possible and some will if they're given a real chance. If the proposed changes go through, I'm afraid that it will close the door on a lot of players that would otherwise have made the jump into trials and those groups that are composed of players who are just now starting to get into progs and getting their first clears.

Arrodisia · July 2022

What some players fail to realise is this.

There is no US vs THEM here. A nerf is a nerf and a buff is a buff.

If the update lowers the average dps for high end raiders, it lowers the average dps for casual players too.

Players don't play MMO's to not feel powerful. We have enough of not being powerful in real life (for example at work).

We're powerful heros who can save a King in ESO

We don't want to feel we're hitting enemies with a wet noodle.
When my lighting crackles or my sword plunges into some Daedra, I want to see dead bodies everywhere.

Have fun in game everyone.

deleted221205-002626 · July 2022

Pevey wrote: »

I do think the obsession the devs have with what the "tippity-top" (their words) are capable of is really unhealthy for the game.

Here is an interesting quote from an article I just read. It's from a WoW dev talking about the upcoming expansion.
Hazzikostas and the WoW team liken the problem to the existence of two separate games: the one they're making, where you need to cooperate to kill raid or dungeon bosses, and the one a lot of players prioritise, which is topping the DPS meters. "We don't create that game. But many people are playing it and many people are like, that is a primary motivation almost for them. And the question is, how sensitive should we be to that? If we were making a game, and the point of the game was maximize your score, maximise this number, it would be problematic for us to introduce elements into the game that are very random or skew outcomes one way or another. But that's also not the game that we have made. We have created a cooperative game that presents these challenges to be overcome."

Very interesting take. Who cares what the tippity top do? It's more important whether the game is fun than fighting this battle against "obscene" damage numbers. The real issue is why are achievements designed around such a tiny percentage of the player base anyway? Even the most elite of the elite in ESO admit the difficulty of vets and HMs have some room to come down to be more accessible. Let the players who enjoy pushing speedruns compete on that basis. Have a better reward system that makes that engaging. It's open ended.

I also wish they would implement a story mode already so that people who are interested in that experience don't have to have their experience "ruined" by players who just want to get their transmutes so they can make the gear they want. It creates a lot of unneeded toxicity because there is a small portion of each demographic that for whatever reason thinks the other is intentionally trying to ruin their fun, when really they both just want to play the game. It's a design issue.

I'm not sure I would call it a tiny percentage. Maybe a tiny percentage is aware of it and fully admits it but a much higher percentage has been playing "that game" they're entire lives! Evolution is built around it!

The problem is trying to make "football" accessible while also making it still challenging for the non accessible. If it's not challenging for the non-accessible then it's completely boring and unfun! Simply put, "challenging" is generally something that pushes the limits of the mind or body. If your lacking in either area it's going to be extra difficult and there's no avoiding that IMO.

I cant see it being possible to be both challenging and accessible! You cant make black also white, and trying to go grey only makes the black crew bored as its not challenging in any way.