Whatever the reason for the population and Trial PUG decline, we need to admit this about Zenimax...

GQManOfTheYear · July 2022

Whatever the reason for the population and Trial PUG decline, we need to admit this about Zenimax:

1) They are vulnerable (a (visible) population siphoned so easily).
2) They were not prepared (content, including trials and less players make content more difficult and outright impossible to complete for remaining frustrated players).
3) The disregarding of suggestions of your community, has the chickens coming home to roost.

Don't double down Zenimax. Admit you did wrong. You focused too much on monetization of loot boxes and not enough on these issues.

warabi · July 2022

Honestly, I think they could make a lot of people happier if they'd just separate pvp and pve. A good example of how to do is Guild Wars 1. You go into a pvp zone (they're instanced, just like ESO) and skills are tweaked just for pvp. If the skill is too over powered you simply can't use it in pvp. The other nice thing about GW1 is that you can make a new character from the get go just for roleplay or for pvp.

A lot of pvers don't want to do pvp content nor be affected by it and vice versa for pvpers. They aren't wrong for feeling that way. This method would improve the quality of life for the game overall since they wouldn't *constantly* be having to try and balance the game for both modes when they are inherently quite different. Each mode would get the care and fine tuning they deserve.

Crown_of_Antlers · July 2022

warabi wrote: »

Honestly, I think they could make a lot of people happier if they'd just separate pvp and pve.

They aren't wrong for feeling that way. This method would improve the quality of life for the game overall since they wouldn't *constantly* be having to try and balance the game for both modes when they are inherently quite different. Each mode would get the care and fine tuning they deserve.

Agreed 100%. PvE and PvP are two entirely different beasts. One size does not and cannot fit all no matter how many times they try.

YandereGirlfriend · July 2022

I have been absolutely shocked by this, TBH.

Craglorn is 1000% DEAD right now - nobody is there on PC-NA and no trials are happening anywhere else (e.g. Summerset, Morrowind, High Isle, etc.).

When I first started playing the game ~4 years ago, Craglorn was THE place to be on a Friday night or Saturday afternoon, with groups forming up for every trial in the game and the Craglorn trials being run basically every 15 minutes on both normal and veteran. Now, there aren't even zone scammers trying to fleece lowbies of their golden materials - it's just a complete ghost town.

I haven't been a big PvE'er for a long time but it certainly looks like the PUG scene is over.

MissHeartseekerx · July 2022

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Craglorn is 1000% DEAD right now - nobody is there on PC-NA and no trials are happening anywhere else (e.g. Summerset, Morrowind, High Isle, etc.).

Craglorn is entirely dead on PCEU, too. I managed to PUG a vHRC from Grahtwood of all places, and can still see dozens upon dozens of vet trials happening in Discord servers. I don't think I've seen a normal trial since High Isle dropped and one of my guilds offered a nDSR run alongside a bunch of vDSRs.

Even saw someone asking in zone chat for trials, then saying "well, guess nobody's doing trials anymore" a bit after. Honestly Discord is still good for pugging vet trials, but in-game is dead.

Slight edit: organised guild runs seem to be declining. One of my prog groups has been disbanded for months, and has yet to recover. My main prog was completed a few weeks ago, and hasn't been brought back for another prog. Servers dedicated to PUGs are still thriving... for now, at least.

Mixalis966 · July 2022

Poor decision making all over the place.From very simple things to more complex bad decisions everywhere:Tragic pvp performance,no party finder,siege equipment doesnt stack-you need to waste time filleting fish with addon instead of all at once like deconstructing,ToT tutorial not skipable wasting ton of time if you wanna play with alts,bugs still persist and waiting for fixes,CROWN STORE being a ripoff charging for features that should be included in the main game like the armory assistant,charging 800 crowns for something you can get in game fore free like vamp cures etc,disregarding competitive players and developing the game around casuals letting damage skyrocket making all content easy and now creating all this mess with the nerfs...I could go on but there is no point.The developers do not accept criticism.I am sorry but all these things are happeing because someone is not doig his job well enough.

Personaly i will not renew my subscription to the game till high isle bugs are all fixed.I love the elder scrolls franchise but there is a limit to how much incapable developers can milk our love for the game.It is never personal and i know it's a matter of your economic survival but people who proved unable to solve problems over and over and over should step down.

agelonestar · July 2022

I’d be really interested to see what the population numbers look like overall.

I recently returned to running a trade guild. I’m seeing lots more new players who give it a go for a week, maybe two or three, and then just never come back. I’m also seeing an increase in veteran players moving on. That’s doubly true for any PVP related content.

But hey, I’m sure the next update, with a complete re-write of just about every skill in the game, which we were promised we wouldn’t have again, and which seems incredibly unpopular, will have people flocking back. Not.

shadyjane62 · July 2022

I am a middling average player. I am so disheartened by the patch that I don't even want to play. What's the point?

I can only think it's that much worse for endgame players that have worked so hard to get to a place I'll never see. I admire them.

Today I downloaded GW2, to see 4 years of gifts for my birthday. I felt welcomed.

I have a lot of time left on my sub but I won't be doing anything out in the world. There are actually people who like what's happened for whatever reason. I don't want to meet up with them in game and certainly I don't want to hear them in chat.

I'm trying to get my calm back.

Gambino108 · July 2022

It's clearly an error on their part from the last event in Craglorn.

It was the first time they ever attempt the Event Merchant and Quest Giver there, and obviously expanded instances so there would be no complaints and all happy people.

Since the event finished, there's been murmurs and moans on forum about Craglorn being dead. I tested it this week, it's true. Every instance I log in there's 10 people max, and all in chat complaining about the emptiness. I ported to 3 different people in empty instances and all standing in Craglorn alone.

Did your Zos intern forget to remind you event ended?? How does this stuff escape your developers? Surely they play the game as much as the rest of us, as they're paid for it?

kargen27 · July 2022

"You focused too much on monetization of loot boxes and not enough on these issues."

I agree there are problems with the game. Loot boxes are not the reason not even a little bit. The people that work to provide items for the crown store and crown crates are not the same people that develop the game. Different tasks and different skills needed.

Nomadic_Atmoran · July 2022

agelonestar wrote: »

I’d be really interested to see what the population numbers look like overall.

I recently returned to running a trade guild. I’m seeing lots more new players who give it a go for a week, maybe two or three, and then just never come back. I’m also seeing an increase in veteran players moving on. That’s doubly true for any PVP related content.

But hey, I’m sure the next update, with a complete re-write of just about every skill in the game, which we were promised we wouldn’t have again, and which seems incredibly unpopular, will have people flocking back. Not.

ZOS posted on Facebook about a day ago about how theyre going to try and reel in the changes made in Week 1 for Week 3. It felt very desperate on their part. I think theyre seeing a lot more of a pushback on this then they expected.

kargen27 wrote: »

"You focused too much on monetization of loot boxes and not enough on these issues."

I agree there are problems with the game. Loot boxes are not the reason not even a little bit. The people that work to provide items for the crown store and crown crates are not the same people that develop the game. Different tasks and different skills needed.

No but resources are not infinite. They have a budget and guaranteed over the last 4-5 years more and more has gone to the monetization side of things and less and less towards the rest of the game. This includes making sizable changes to the way players interact with the game world and their characters to psychologically prime the player to turn to the Crown Store to solve the problem rather then wait for positive changes in the patch notes that may never come.

Parasaurolophus · July 2022

It's really quite strange, but Craglorn is really dead. It's been the busiest area in all these years, and now it's so abrupt and boom - it's completely empty.

Carcamongus · July 2022

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

It's really quite strange, but Craglorn is really dead. It's been the busiest area in all these years, and now it's so abrupt and boom - it's completely empty.

The silence is deafening!

asuitandtyb14_ESO · July 2022

shadyjane62 wrote: »

I am a middling average player. I am so disheartened by the patch that I don't even want to play. What's the point?

I can only think it's that much worse for endgame players that have worked so hard to get to a place I'll never see. I admire them.

Today I downloaded GW2, to see 4 years of gifts for my birthday. I felt welcomed.

I have a lot of time left on my sub but I won't be doing anything out in the world. There are actually people who like what's happened for whatever reason. I don't want to meet up with them in game and certainly I don't want to hear them in chat.

I'm trying to get my calm back.

Dude, GW2 is an amazing game. You're going to love it!

Reaver999 · July 2022

The game is oddly dead on PC NA. Since console is typically more dead, I can't imagine what it's like there. I am big into trading and that has been dead as well. Few sales on mats or anything which means people aren't building new toons or new houses. Have been farming mats in craglorn and chat is dead, no one is doing trials. Items that are usually targeted at trials and PvP players are just sitting. This is not a good sign for the game and even though every patch gets some kind of negative reaction, I don't think I've ever seen such a mass exodus before. Players are unhappy and not getting the experience they pay for and that makes me fear for the games future. I know for me, I will be joining others in not renewing my ESO+ this month and stepping away checking out other games. The only thing big business responds to is numbers.

MaraxusTheOrc · July 2022

I logged in tonight and hung around Craglorn for a bit watching chat. One dude desperately searching for nRG. Not another soul speaking up. Logged out not long after.

Been around since beta. Craglorn has never felt this abandoned since it became the de facto grouping zone. Whatever is contributing to it, I genuinely hope Zenimax is taking notice.

Jpk0012 · July 2022

Lackluster expansion with complete braindead decision to nerf every single character, at every single level of play in the game.

shadyjane62 wrote: »

I am a middling average player. I am so disheartened by the patch that I don't even want to play. What's the point?

I can only think it's that much worse for endgame players that have worked so hard to get to a place I'll never see. I admire them.

Today I downloaded GW2, to see 4 years of gifts for my birthday. I felt welcomed.

I have a lot of time left on my sub but I won't be doing anything out in the world. There are actually people who like what's happened for whatever reason. I don't want to meet up with them in game and certainly I don't want to hear them in chat.

I'm trying to get my calm back.

Same exact boat. Except my sub ends in August, and I already cancelled. Why am I getting a major nerf? I never wanted nerf for anyone. I wanted PvP to be enjoyable, or at least for me to somehow contribute before being instantly killed by someone hitting me with 6 abilities in 1 second. This patch doesn't do that. It only moves the goal post down for everyone. I will still be worthless in PvP. I will still outdamage the people who put zero effort into DPS and be out-DPSed by the "sweaties".

Its insane to nerf the guy doing 60k, when ZOS claims the "problem" is the top end players. Granted, I think the problem is of their own making.

They catered the game to these top-end outliers, and they have no idea how to bring it under control. So, in their infinite wisdom they decided to nerf beginners and intermediates. I'm not sticking around for that. I doubt many people will.

kieso · July 2022

I honestly haven't noticed. Never do trials.

vivisectvib16_ESO · July 2022

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

I have been absolutely shocked by this, TBH.

Craglorn is 1000% DEAD right now - nobody is there on PC-NA and no trials are happening anywhere else (e.g. Summerset, Morrowind, High Isle, etc.).

When I first started playing the game ~4 years ago, Craglorn was THE place to be on a Friday night or Saturday afternoon, with groups forming up for every trial in the game and the Craglorn trials being run basically every 15 minutes on both normal and veteran. Now, there aren't even zone scammers trying to fleece lowbies of their golden materials - it's just a complete ghost town.

I haven't been a big PvE'er for a long time but it certainly looks like the PUG scene is over.

Same on PS/NA. Literal ghost town. Is this the change you were looking for ZOS?

Tsar_Gekkou · July 2022

Lots of players get tired of joining bad runs, so they start to only group up with friends instead of pugging, which leads to a decline of people willing to fill public runs. I think the sticker book might've also had a hand in it since a lot of people stop running content once they get the drop they need for reconstruction.

wolfie1.0. · July 2022

Tsar_Gekkou wrote: »

Lots of players get tired of joining bad runs, so they start to only group up with friends instead of pugging, which leads to a decline of people willing to fill public runs. I think the sticker book might've also had a hand in it since a lot of people stop running content once they get the drop they need for reconstruction.

that would explain a gradual, more systematic drop off of players not doing PUGS. and there are reasons to still do pugs that are not sticker book related.

typically we do see event fatigue in some cases where players tend to take a break when event is over

what we are seeing now is more drastic than that. i haven't seen any trial adverts only requests of individuals doing LFG.

wolfie1.0. · July 2022

Also, seems that ZOS's plan to curb in game inflation is probably going to work. if there isn't any demand for stuff...

Tsar_Gekkou · July 2022

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

Tsar_Gekkou wrote: »

Lots of players get tired of joining bad runs, so they start to only group up with friends instead of pugging, which leads to a decline of people willing to fill public runs. I think the sticker book might've also had a hand in it since a lot of people stop running content once they get the drop they need for reconstruction.

that would explain a gradual, more systematic drop off of players not doing PUGS. and there are reasons to still do pugs that are not sticker book related.

typically we do see event fatigue in some cases where players tend to take a break when event is over

what we are seeing now is more drastic than that. i haven't seen any trial adverts only requests of individuals doing LFG.

I'm in an endgame trials guild that used to have runs filling all the time, but with every new trial, more and more people get tired of others not being able to do it on vet because of how each trial is harder than before, so less rosters get posted. Things were already kinda slow before dreadsail came out, but once it dropped and people ran it a bunch for the first 3 weeks to get gear, people just stopped posting rosters at all and only post to pick up one person here or there after someone leaves. Posting public rosters attracted too many people who were either bad or didn't know mechs and caused the run to fail for everyone else, resulting in people leaving the group and eventually the group disbanding, so now a lot of runs I see are ones where people just invite friends that they know are good and won't screw up the run.

Pevey · July 2022

Tsar_Gekkou wrote: »

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

Tsar_Gekkou wrote: »

Lots of players get tired of joining bad runs, so they start to only group up with friends instead of pugging, which leads to a decline of people willing to fill public runs. I think the sticker book might've also had a hand in it since a lot of people stop running content once they get the drop they need for reconstruction.

that would explain a gradual, more systematic drop off of players not doing PUGS. and there are reasons to still do pugs that are not sticker book related.

typically we do see event fatigue in some cases where players tend to take a break when event is over

what we are seeing now is more drastic than that. i haven't seen any trial adverts only requests of individuals doing LFG.

I'm in an endgame trials guild that used to have runs filling all the time, but with every new trial, more and more people get tired of others not being able to do it on vet because of how each trial is harder than before, so less rosters get posted. Things were already kinda slow before dreadsail came out, but once it dropped and people ran it a bunch for the first 3 weeks to get gear, people just stopped posting rosters at all and only post to pick up one person here or there after someone leaves. Posting public rosters attracted too many people who were either bad or didn't know mechs and caused the run to fail for everyone else, resulting in people leaving the group and eventually the group disbanding, so now a lot of runs I see are ones where people just invite friends that they know are good and won't screw up the run.

To give some incentive for experienced people to run normal mode vet trials to keep the ladder out for up and coming players, one idea is to make it so that once your stickerbook for set is full, additional pieces of that set return a small number of transmute crystals for that set when you decon. But similar to leads, they have a finite life, maybe a month? So if you want to recon a set, instead of the only option being to run a million normal dungeons you really have no business running, you could run the content where those sets drop. With no high damage players farming transmutes in normal dungeons ("speedrunning" to some people, just normal speed to us), there would be a lot less contention between parts of the player base (and possibly even no new fake healer/fake tank debate thread in the forums each week).

Of course, nothing will save this game if U35 is not reverted.

SeaGtGruff · July 2022

Don't forget the recent-ish (apparently mass) banning of accounts for using exploits and cheats. If someone says that one of their groups "has been disbanded for months," and the combat changes weren't announced that far back, but there were bans handed out some months ago, I'd be more inclined to try to connect the disbanding of the group to the account bans rather than to changes which hadn't even been announced yet.

vivisectvib16_ESO · July 2022

Tsar_Gekkou wrote: »

Lots of players get tired of joining bad runs, so they start to only group up with friends instead of pugging, which leads to a decline of people willing to fill public runs. I think the sticker book might've also had a hand in it since a lot of people stop running content once they get the drop they need for reconstruction.

Nah. Crag was always bumping right up to the point ZOS detailed their plans for 35. It's been downhill since then.

Tsar_Gekkou · July 2022

vivisectvib16_ESO wrote: »

Tsar_Gekkou wrote: »

Lots of players get tired of joining bad runs, so they start to only group up with friends instead of pugging, which leads to a decline of people willing to fill public runs. I think the sticker book might've also had a hand in it since a lot of people stop running content once they get the drop they need for reconstruction.

Nah. Crag was always bumping right up to the point ZOS detailed their plans for 35. It's been downhill since then.

What platform? Xbox NA has been meh for a bit.

MasterSpatula · July 2022

I really think they don't realize close so many of us are to throwing in the towel. They're on their last chance with a lot of people, and I think most of us are by now used to the "if it his the PTS, it hits live, usually almost completely intact" thing, so it's possible a lot of people have already washed their hands of the game.

starkerealm · July 2022

Gambino108 wrote: »

It's clearly an error on their part from the last event in Craglorn.

It was the first time they ever attempt the Event Merchant and Quest Giver there, and obviously expanded instances so there would be no complaints and all happy people.

Since the event finished, there's been murmurs and moans on forum about Craglorn being dead. I tested it this week, it's true. Every instance I log in there's 10 people max, and all in chat complaining about the emptiness. I ported to 3 different people in empty instances and all standing in Craglorn alone.

Did your Zos intern forget to remind you event ended?? How does this stuff escape your developers? Surely they play the game as much as the rest of us, as they're paid for it?

This is a credible theory... except, last Saturday and Sunday, Craglorn was still normally active. People were pugging, things were happening. Monday hit, boom, ghost down. Except, the event didn't end on Monday, it was the previous Tuesday, and yeah it was a little quiet that Tuesday afternoon (as I recall), but it was picking back up by the end of the week.

starkerealm · July 2022

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

Don't forget the recent-ish (apparently mass) banning of accounts for using exploits and cheats. If someone says that one of their groups "has been disbanded for months," and the combat changes weren't announced that far back, but there were bans handed out some months ago, I'd be more inclined to try to connect the disbanding of the group to the account bans rather than to changes which hadn't even been announced yet.

You're absolutely correct. There was some hemorrhaging after 33, based on those balance changes.

However, I've seen a marked decline in activity over this week. It's not just in craglorn. I logged into Auridon yesterday for my Endeavors, and zone chat was almost dead. It might have only lasted for the five or six minutes until I ducked out of the zone, but I haven't seen it that dead since Gold Auridon was removed from the game.

mocap · July 2022

as someone mentioned here, this is could be a sharding bug (server shards, layers, mirrors, whatever) due to Zen event.

In this case ZOS must reduce the number of layers in Craglorn, so more people will start to see each other.