xgoku1 wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

f they're giving you their combat metrics readout, it's a parse.

xgoku1 wrote: »

I mean we use parse numbers on the 21mil dummy because it provides standard buffs so everyone's parse can be assessed at the same standard level.

The problem with this is that ZOS knows it, and today they have decided they're not playing fair. The trial dummies on the PTS have been modified with an altered set of buffs, so while they are standardized to other parses on the same server, they are not standardized to compare with parses on the live servers.

In order to get an accurate parse for a character on live and on the PTS, you would need to use a 6m or 3m dummy, because those do return consistent data between live and PTS.

However, those of us who are old school enough remember when we had to do our parses against actual enemies, (before dummies were a thing), and the parse data above reflects that approach.

HTM didn't give their combat metrics readout. Unless I missed it, he just posted the kill times and says "roughly 35-40%" reduction.

Yeah, adding Major Slayer and Minor Courage is definitely sneaky. Obviously if we have data from both Live and PTS on 3m/6m dummy that's fine. But most people go for the 21mil dummy these days. It's just standard practice and probably easier to find online

Hack's released a lot of Combat Metrics screens with this, thought I'd seen the one for this specific example, but maybe not.

xgoku1 wrote: »

First things first. DPS nerfs are absolutely necessary in this game because the ceiling is ridiculous in 2022. It's something the endgame community has been asking for. Every year, ZOS adds new OP sets that worsen the power creep in this game.

The current DPS ceiling goes upto 140k+, which leads to older content becoming an absolute joke. See: vAS in 2 minutes 33 seconds - vCR in 2 minutes 49 seconds

Weaving isn't going anywhere. In fact, they just gave us two new animations for channeled spam abilities (Templar Jabs and DW Flurry) for better weaving feel. It's simply illogical to claim that ZOS is coming to take your animation canceling away.

The new LA damage still contributes roughly 8k damage to your parse, down from 11-15k in U34 (Roughly a 2-4% reduction in DPS contribution). It is still needed for optimal DPS, while reducing the DPS contribution is good for low APM players. In effect, the DPS penalty is less severe if you miss weaves, which is always good for players trying to learn weaving.

The biggest complaint from testing is that players find the 20 second DoT cooldown playstyle quite boring in comparison to 7-8 seconds, because ESO only has 10 skill slots. Here are some counter-points:

1. A real PvE combat situation is a lot more dynamic requiring you to react to enemy AoEs, attacks etc. Reducing the busy upkeep of DoTs reduces the stress of responding to fight situations and possibly can lead to better team co-ordination.
2. Actual PvE bosses are hardly stationary, and DPS occurs in "phases". DoTs doing damage over a long duration for the same cost means that the bulk of damage comes from spammables/set effects etc. This means higher damage in short bursts, which aligns with how DPS phases are designed.
3. Better sustain since the DoT costs remain unchanged
4. Less backbar swaps needed (bar swapping is a big complaint for many players - Oakensoul's popularity proved that)

U35 parses can still hit 100k (even if you reduce ~12% from the new Minor Courage and Major Slayer buffs to dummy).

Here are some parses off the Internet:
StamCro 116k

MagSorc 103k

MagBlade 101k, literally spamming Surprise Attack

Have YOU tested it in PTS?

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

sorry to break it but rotations are still just as busy

changing when you refresh dots does not do anything except simplify the rotation

Simpler rotation that makes it easier to reach the ceiling though. Of course, you still need to git gud at LA weaving, but the penalty is much, much lesser if you suck. Even if you miss 50% of your weaves, you're missing 4-5k damage. It's flat numbers for meta builds

LordDragonMara wrote: »

And dare to explain why you hate LA weaving + the old 10sec system ?
And still waiting to answer the guy that wanted to show him prove with stats about your claims. You very conveniently miss that post.

Where did I say I hate LA weaving and the old system?

Elvenheart wrote: »

This is just my own personal opinion, and it hasn’t changed since beta. I think Week 1 of a new PTS cycle we get to see the worst case scenario but I think other changes are already planned to lessen the perceived disaster that’s about to happen, And in the end although not everyone will be happy, more people will be happy than they are during Week 1. In other words, it’s a marketing ploy to make the REAL changes feel better. That’s why I don’t get excited or worried until the final product goes live.

But please keep debating, just like during the great rapids maneuver debate and other similar debates, and like the previous Oakensoul discussions between the time it was first revealed and the live one we have now (still waiting to see the NEW final Oakensoul) I find these discussions very interesting and entertaining to read in my precious downtime. 🙂

What you said is quite true. Week 1 PTS is real wild.

I personally think they are going to change most things by Week 4, except the nerf to LA damage. Something tells me that the fact they are trying this again after a major backlash in 2020, means that they are committed to see it through regardless of player opinion.

My theory is that they realized the game's performance won't improve unless they switch to a low APM playstyle. There's the risk of vet players leaving (so many have already) but I guess the numbers prioritize a different audience

xgoku1 wrote: »

Elvenheart wrote: »

This is just my own personal opinion, and it hasn’t changed since beta. I think Week 1 of a new PTS cycle we get to see the worst case scenario but I think other changes are already planned to lessen the perceived disaster that’s about to happen, And in the end although not everyone will be happy, more people will be happy than they are during Week 1. In other words, it’s a marketing ploy to make the REAL changes feel better. That’s why I don’t get excited or worried until the final product goes live.

But please keep debating, just like during the great rapids maneuver debate and other similar debates, and like the previous Oakensoul discussions between the time it was first revealed and the live one we have now (still waiting to see the NEW final Oakensoul) I find these discussions very interesting and entertaining to read in my precious downtime. 🙂

What you said is quite true. Week 1 PTS is real wild.

I personally think they are going to change most things by Week 4, except the nerf to LA damage. Something tells me that the fact they are trying this again after a major backlash in 2020, means that they are committed to see it through regardless of player opinion.

My theory is that they realized the game's performance won't improve unless they switch to a low APM playstyle. There's the risk of vet players leaving (so many have already) but I guess the numbers prioritize a different audience

based on several different threads in the PTS section of the forum, APM is not changing whatsoever

they even showed their ESO logs for PTS and live and both were still around the 119-120 APM, so i have no idea where you think this is lowering APM

xgoku1 wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

sorry to break it but rotations are still just as busy

changing when you refresh dots does not do anything except simplify the rotation

Simpler rotation that makes it easier to reach the ceiling though. Of course, you still need to git gud at LA weaving, but the penalty is much, much lesser if you suck. Even if you miss 50% of your weaves, you're missing 4-5k damage. It's flat numbers for meta builds

the rotations arent that much simpler, they did not reduce how much you had to pay attention to timers and in fact its easier to lose track of them at 20 sec

again not to mention the huge DOT nerfs

dmg being nerfed across the board is literally not changing anything, it is NOT doing anything other than making a simplified rotation of spamming a spam skill + light attack 15x instead of 5x before recasting your dots, thats going to make weaving MORE important even with reduced dmg from light attacks

Don't worry, I'm sure it will all change again in a few months. And then a few months after that, and ag....you get my point.

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

xgoku1 wrote: »

Elvenheart wrote: »

This is just my own personal opinion, and it hasn’t changed since beta. I think Week 1 of a new PTS cycle we get to see the worst case scenario but I think other changes are already planned to lessen the perceived disaster that’s about to happen, And in the end although not everyone will be happy, more people will be happy than they are during Week 1. In other words, it’s a marketing ploy to make the REAL changes feel better. That’s why I don’t get excited or worried until the final product goes live.

But please keep debating, just like during the great rapids maneuver debate and other similar debates, and like the previous Oakensoul discussions between the time it was first revealed and the live one we have now (still waiting to see the NEW final Oakensoul) I find these discussions very interesting and entertaining to read in my precious downtime. 🙂

What you said is quite true. Week 1 PTS is real wild.

I personally think they are going to change most things by Week 4, except the nerf to LA damage. Something tells me that the fact they are trying this again after a major backlash in 2020, means that they are committed to see it through regardless of player opinion.

My theory is that they realized the game's performance won't improve unless they switch to a low APM playstyle. There's the risk of vet players leaving (so many have already) but I guess the numbers prioritize a different audience

based on several different threads in the PTS section of the forum, APM is not changing whatsoever

they even showed their ESO logs for PTS and live and both were still around the 119-120 APM, so i have no idea where you think this is lowering APM

xgoku1 wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

sorry to break it but rotations are still just as busy

changing when you refresh dots does not do anything except simplify the rotation

Simpler rotation that makes it easier to reach the ceiling though. Of course, you still need to git gud at LA weaving, but the penalty is much, much lesser if you suck. Even if you miss 50% of your weaves, you're missing 4-5k damage. It's flat numbers for meta builds

the rotations arent that much simpler, they did not reduce how much you had to pay attention to timers and in fact its easier to lose track of them at 20 sec

again not to mention the huge DOT nerfs

dmg being nerfed across the board is literally not changing anything, it is NOT doing anything other than making a simplified rotation of spamming a spam skill + light attack 15x instead of 5x before recasting your dots, thats going to make weaving MORE important even with reduced dmg from light attacks

Yeah I shouldn't say low APM, I meant lower server calculations. It's the same reason why they pushed AwA through without listening to feedback, because better server performance.

Okay, I just don't see your logic in saying a 20s DoT is harder to stay on top of than a 10s one. In the current system, every time you switch to backbar to re-apply DoTs you may screw up the flow of your rotation (for an inexperienced player). Needing to do them half as often means less chance of that

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

No, I won't stop. The average player was able to get further than ever in the current patch, and now they're going to be stuffed six feet under while the top percent still perform well. The current 1% of people who can do 140k or complete vas in 2 minutes are NOT having a negative impact on the game as there are so very few of them. Who is hurt by them doing their trials quickly? Who cares?? But blanket nerfs to everyone does hurt everyone. End of argument.

As an added note, the loss of dps is to me, as a 120k parser, far less bothersome than the changes to timing and class changes. I literally loathe them. However, for others... I am also the leader of a training guild that dreads this patch going live, and seeing the hard work of all my poor fledglings being trashed by this reckless joke of a patch.

Well the 140k comment was just to illustrate a point that endgame community has been asking for DPS nerfs. That's what Nefas and t3hasiangod was saying during discussions about the DPS delta and so on.

It seems like they got it?

xgoku1 wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

xgoku1 wrote: »

Elvenheart wrote: »

This is just my own personal opinion, and it hasn’t changed since beta. I think Week 1 of a new PTS cycle we get to see the worst case scenario but I think other changes are already planned to lessen the perceived disaster that’s about to happen, And in the end although not everyone will be happy, more people will be happy than they are during Week 1. In other words, it’s a marketing ploy to make the REAL changes feel better. That’s why I don’t get excited or worried until the final product goes live.

But please keep debating, just like during the great rapids maneuver debate and other similar debates, and like the previous Oakensoul discussions between the time it was first revealed and the live one we have now (still waiting to see the NEW final Oakensoul) I find these discussions very interesting and entertaining to read in my precious downtime. 🙂

What you said is quite true. Week 1 PTS is real wild.

I personally think they are going to change most things by Week 4, except the nerf to LA damage. Something tells me that the fact they are trying this again after a major backlash in 2020, means that they are committed to see it through regardless of player opinion.

My theory is that they realized the game's performance won't improve unless they switch to a low APM playstyle. There's the risk of vet players leaving (so many have already) but I guess the numbers prioritize a different audience

based on several different threads in the PTS section of the forum, APM is not changing whatsoever

they even showed their ESO logs for PTS and live and both were still around the 119-120 APM, so i have no idea where you think this is lowering APM

xgoku1 wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

sorry to break it but rotations are still just as busy

changing when you refresh dots does not do anything except simplify the rotation

Simpler rotation that makes it easier to reach the ceiling though. Of course, you still need to git gud at LA weaving, but the penalty is much, much lesser if you suck. Even if you miss 50% of your weaves, you're missing 4-5k damage. It's flat numbers for meta builds

the rotations arent that much simpler, they did not reduce how much you had to pay attention to timers and in fact its easier to lose track of them at 20 sec

again not to mention the huge DOT nerfs

dmg being nerfed across the board is literally not changing anything, it is NOT doing anything other than making a simplified rotation of spamming a spam skill + light attack 15x instead of 5x before recasting your dots, thats going to make weaving MORE important even with reduced dmg from light attacks

Yeah I shouldn't say low APM, I meant lower server calculations. It's the same reason why they pushed AwA through without listening to feedback, because better server performance.

Okay, I just don't see your logic in saying a 20s DoT is harder to stay on top of than a 10s one. In the current system, every time you switch to backbar to re-apply DoTs you may screw up the flow of your rotation (for an inexperienced player). Needing to do them half as often means less chance of that

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

No, I won't stop. The average player was able to get further than ever in the current patch, and now they're going to be stuffed six feet under while the top percent still perform well. The current 1% of people who can do 140k or complete vas in 2 minutes are NOT having a negative impact on the game as there are so very few of them. Who is hurt by them doing their trials quickly? Who cares?? But blanket nerfs to everyone does hurt everyone. End of argument.

As an added note, the loss of dps is to me, as a 120k parser, far less bothersome than the changes to timing and class changes. I literally loathe them. However, for others... I am also the leader of a training guild that dreads this patch going live, and seeing the hard work of all my poor fledglings being trashed by this reckless joke of a patch.

Well the 140k comment was just to illustrate a point that endgame community has been asking for DPS nerfs. That's what Nefas and t3hasiangod was saying during discussions about the DPS delta and so on.

It seems like they got it?

As a former member of endgame communities, I never recall anyone asking for nerfs. And if someone parsing that high is asking for nerfs, then it is selfish and inconsiderate to the rest of the community who is, for the most part, happy to hit 70k or so.

xgoku1 wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

xgoku1 wrote: »

Elvenheart wrote: »

This is just my own personal opinion, and it hasn’t changed since beta. I think Week 1 of a new PTS cycle we get to see the worst case scenario but I think other changes are already planned to lessen the perceived disaster that’s about to happen, And in the end although not everyone will be happy, more people will be happy than they are during Week 1. In other words, it’s a marketing ploy to make the REAL changes feel better. That’s why I don’t get excited or worried until the final product goes live.

But please keep debating, just like during the great rapids maneuver debate and other similar debates, and like the previous Oakensoul discussions between the time it was first revealed and the live one we have now (still waiting to see the NEW final Oakensoul) I find these discussions very interesting and entertaining to read in my precious downtime. 🙂

What you said is quite true. Week 1 PTS is real wild.

I personally think they are going to change most things by Week 4, except the nerf to LA damage. Something tells me that the fact they are trying this again after a major backlash in 2020, means that they are committed to see it through regardless of player opinion.

My theory is that they realized the game's performance won't improve unless they switch to a low APM playstyle. There's the risk of vet players leaving (so many have already) but I guess the numbers prioritize a different audience

based on several different threads in the PTS section of the forum, APM is not changing whatsoever

they even showed their ESO logs for PTS and live and both were still around the 119-120 APM, so i have no idea where you think this is lowering APM

xgoku1 wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

sorry to break it but rotations are still just as busy

changing when you refresh dots does not do anything except simplify the rotation

Simpler rotation that makes it easier to reach the ceiling though. Of course, you still need to git gud at LA weaving, but the penalty is much, much lesser if you suck. Even if you miss 50% of your weaves, you're missing 4-5k damage. It's flat numbers for meta builds

the rotations arent that much simpler, they did not reduce how much you had to pay attention to timers and in fact its easier to lose track of them at 20 sec

again not to mention the huge DOT nerfs

dmg being nerfed across the board is literally not changing anything, it is NOT doing anything other than making a simplified rotation of spamming a spam skill + light attack 15x instead of 5x before recasting your dots, thats going to make weaving MORE important even with reduced dmg from light attacks

Yeah I shouldn't say low APM, I meant lower server calculations. It's the same reason why they pushed AwA through without listening to feedback, because better server performance.

Okay, I just don't see your logic in saying a 20s DoT is harder to stay on top of than a 10s one. In the current system, every time you switch to backbar to re-apply DoTs you may screw up the flow of your rotation (for an inexperienced player). Needing to do them half as often means less chance of that

also to burst your bubble but AWA had absolutely nothing to do with "performance" either, that was just their baked reply to try to show that they were listening

with the way the dots work in PTS, a dot has to stay up a minimum of 10 sec to even come close to dealing the same dmg as 1 spammable, recasting early means the entire DoT was a waste of GCD to even cast in the first place

from numbers im seeing on screenshots from the PTS, most of the dots are only doing about 1250-1600 dmg every 2 seconds, this equates to 625-800 dmg per sec, this is HALF of what the effective dps is for dots on live

if an enemy does not stay in the same spot for at least 10 sec, all ground base dots will be effectively useless because that GCD casting the dot dealt less dmg than a spammable at that point

sticky dots help enemy moving around, but not invuln phases, so unless the enemy comes out of invuln and you put a 20 sec sticky dot on them, and they go invuln 8 sec later, that GCD casting the dot was wasted because you would have done more dmg with the spammable than the dot did in 8 sec after you cast it

personally i am fine with the increased dot durations, i think that would help make things easier unless your trying to optimize, but combined with the global dmg nerfs + the other dot nerfs reducing the tick rates almost blows them to oblivion unless you actually get the enemy to take 100% of the dot dmg, and thus you need to really glue your eyes on the duration to make sure you definitely do not cast it early because its a massive dmg loss doing so

I am off. Good talk everyone

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

Didgerion wrote: »

xgoku1 wrote: »

First things first. DPS nerfs are absolutely necessary in this game because the ceiling is ridiculous in 2022. It's something the endgame community has been asking for. Every year, ZOS adds new OP sets that worsen the power creep in this game.
U35 parses can still hit 100k (even if you reduce ~12% from the new Minor Courage and Major Slayer buffs to dummy).

I can not agree more that DPS should be tuned down a bit. But that's not the way you do it.
They should have addressed only weaving this patch. It would have been a safe patch that would affected all builds equally. (minus DK's 30k+ heavy attack builds)

What they came up with is a scramble. It affects all the builds differently. And that's a big problem because they spent many many hours to balance those builds and now all the balance work will need to be started over. PTS will reveal only the tip of the iceberg of the unbalance.

Dps should NOT be tuned down. The ceiling should not be lowered.
Both trials zos released within the last year REQUIRE the extremely high damage to complete at the highest difficulty, and the extremely LOW numbers lf completion reflect this

The DPS gets higher with every release by adding new sets and adjusting the underperforming skills etc. And the old content remains way behind.
So one option is to tune up the PVE content or the easier one is to adjust damage.

Personally the weaving changes doesn't bother me too much. I believe they want it to be a flat number to keep it out if the way when balancing classes.
I might also understand why they do dot changes, probably to increase the performance, but man those timers could be so much more creative, 20s timers just don't cut it for me.

xgoku1 wrote: »

That's what's funny about it. I don't know, it seems like people are taking this way too seriously.

It's not funny.

The problem here is that this is kinda serious. Like, yeah, we're talking about a video game. None of us are going to die. If ESO goes down in flames, our lives will continue, and the only difference is our wallets will be a little heavier with the money we're not spending on a subscription.

The problem is, I like here. I like these people. Yeah, there's a few I can't stand, and not everything's always the best, but I like here.

If this goes live, this place will die. It's not going to be instant. It's not going to be dramatic. But, people are going to wander off. The inertia will start, and this place will be less crowded when finally pull their heads out and admit they made a mistake. If they ever admit they made a mistake.

When you strip off all the extras and the accessories, this is a chat room attached to a game about killing people and taking their stuff. When the killing people part is dull, there are better options. Options that make a better argument for your time and money.

So, like I said, people will wander off.

And with MMOs, when people start wandering off, it's often irreversible. "No, don't waste your time on that game, it's dying." "Don't waste your money on that game, it's dying." Eventually, it becomes, "no one plays that game, it's dead." The death spiral is a self fulfilling prophecy for MMOs. Once it earns the reputation of a game dying, it is very difficult to escape.

The players who leave ESO will carry with them the story of an MMO where the combat was ravaged beyond recognition, and that will compound with the negative reputation of the underbaked game from 2014 that released far too soon.

So, yeah, I can't speak for anyone else, but I am taking this seriously because I like it here. I like these people. I don't want to watch this place die, and this patch has an excellent shot at starting that death spiral.

[snip] Show me this 140k parse. Average endgamers are parsing 110-125k. Stamsorc parse builds with no raid application are hitting in the 130s. The average eso player who is *trying* is half that. The average player in general is nowhere and that is perfectly fine for what they want to do.
Look. Everybody got nerfed by far more than was intended and rotations are boring. Does anyone want this? More and more people are getting vet clears and trifectas in old content no, that's what accessibility looks like. God bless em but Nefas et al probably weren't saying they should nerf dps when he got Planesbreaker. And t3hsiangod left the game a year and a half ago because he got sick of the yoyo changes.
OP there are logs of PTS raids already and parses and it is truly atrocious.

Don't @ me I'm not interested.

[edited for baiting]

Nah 90% of the current changes are beyond random & pointless. ZoS rhetoric for these changes so far don't go hand in hand with the first weeks changes. The only thing we get from the current testing is everyone is doing less damage. It's going to be bad update for everyone unless changes are made accordingly.

xgoku1 wrote: »

[*] A real PvE combat situation is a lot more dynamic requiring you to react to enemy AoEs, attacks etc. Reducing the busy upkeep of DoTs reduces the stress of responding to fight situations and possibly can lead to better team co-ordination.

Dynamic situations usually means the enemies move out of the AoEs, requiring reapplication anyway.

[*] Actual PvE bosses are hardly stationary, and DPS occurs in "phases". DoTs doing damage over a long duration for the same cost means that the bulk of damage comes from spammables/set effects etc. This means higher damage in short bursts, which aligns with how DPS phases are designed.

Ok, that's great for the players who have access to trial sets. What about those who don't? Also, less damage from DoTs still means less damage overall. It just means a higher *percentage* of damage comes from other means.

[*] Better sustain since the DoT costs remain unchanged

Again, because you constantly need to reapply, and now additionally, the damage is LOWER, fights take longer, leading to worse sustain. I found I myself running out of magicka more in PTS fwiw.

[*] Less backbar swaps needed (bar swapping is a big complaint for many players - Oakensoul's popularity proved that)

Still needed almost as many bb swaps due to some buffs expiring in the middle of my rotation. It was even worse because I needed to barswap just to reapply one buff.

U35 parses can still hit 100k (even if you reduce ~12% from the new Minor Courage and Major Slayer buffs to dummy).

Here are some parses off the Internet:
StamCro 116k[/b]

Ok, great for those with 100k parses. What about the rest of us?

Riptide wrote: »

Stop releasing overpowered sets and mythics.

^^^ That's the answer.