Stop the outrage: U35 combat changes are good*

pklemming · July 2022

Those parses you provided are also wrong, as they 'conveniently' buffed the PTS trial dummy at the same time with new buffs. Take another 10k or so of those numbers, then compare to the current live numbers.

The templar jabs animation change is bad as is the burning light change. Dot not only got a nerf, but extended, so the damage per second is massively lower, which will be awesome for very mobile fights.

Mid to low end people will get hurt a lot.

Those disabled people, or those struggling, had the item helping them nerfed too(way to provide accessibility!)

Nothing in these patch notes are good. Nothing

pklemming · July 2022

Oh, and I am on portals in my prog team for vCR. Not looking forwards to portals one iota, and I am sure execute will be a laugh.

Riptide · July 2022

OP, isn’t this you, from about a year ago?

xgoku1 wrote: »

Because changes are too frequent and seem poorly thought out. Change itself in an mmo is a good thing to keep things dynamic but it's reached the point where the devs seem to change things to "look busy" at their jobs.

Not to mention these changes seem more like live experiments, like an eternal beta test.

I mean I’m glad you like it, and found other people’s parses to support that fondness.

I alsomagree with the point you made around this time last year

Pevey · July 2022

xgoku1 wrote: »

I highly doubt anyone threatening to leave ESO will actually leave. Just saying, threatening to quit MMOs is as old as MMOs themselves.

MMOs imploding because of [snip] developers pushing through game updates despite objections from the community is also as old as MMOs themselves.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[edited for bashing]

xaraan · July 2022

No, they aren't good.

Pointing out some needed changes doesn't make everything magically good.

Just the fact that they changed the target dummy this patch (nothing stopping them from fixing it last patch or next patch) means they want to muddy the waters b/c they know the changes aren't going to look good.

Nord_Raseri · July 2022

xgoku1 wrote: »

37% of your DPS coming from LAs sounds like a non-meta thing, I was speaking from High Isle parses I saw. What build did you use?

What build? My own. I've been fine tuning it for years. Built specifically for my level of damaged hands.

Necrotech_Master · July 2022

xgoku1 wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

in what world are you living in that dots ticking every 2 sec is a good change? lol

that is VERY slow, not to mention many bosses move around a lot, so any kind of ground dot is going to be utterly useless outside of maybe the maelstrom bow with volley

Single target DoTs already tick every 2 seconds. For mobile fights, you can switch to sticky DoTs instead.

they most definitely all do not

blackrose bow proc ticks every 2 sec and i hardly can tell when its dealing dmg, it feels i have to wait forever for a dmg tick

poison injection 100% ticks every second and feels much faster dmg than blackrose bow proc, even though blackrose bow proc per tick does 2-3x more dmg

a tick every 2 sec means the dps of the tick is 50% of what its doing, and with tick dmg down an avg of 33% (some its less some its more like winters revenge for warden) that is going to make them awful to use

i run combat metrics and a scrolling combat log, i know exactly when my dots tick and how frequently

the patch notes dont even mention the dozens of other proc sets that also tick at once per second, like pillar of nirn, if they dont change that one it could be doing 4x what a class dot does in terms of DPS

virtus753 · July 2022

xgoku1 wrote: »

Hortator Indoril Nerevar wrote: »

5. The world first guild to get vDreadsailReef trifecta all quit because it will no longer be POSSIBLE to do it. Its not a case of adapt and do it slower but IT WONT EVEN BE PHYSICALLY POSSIBLE anymore.

6. Noone will do last boss vRockgrove trifecta/hm because it wont be possible. At all.

7. Everyone does less dps including the casuals. Somehow they are convinced this is only a top dps nerf.

[snip]

Content can be adjusted post U35 to new DPS standards. vRG HM etc. with the insane DPS checks are clearly designed with DPS powercreep in mind, that was the year they dropped the OP Kilt.

ZOS even said so in the Preview Post, that they are reducing the DPS delta to design combat content better. Having a sensible DPS range is a big part of that IMO.

If they wait to adjust content until after Update 35, then there will be an entire quarter where some content is literally impossible to complete and where people are set back at all levels (largely impassably) because they do not do sufficient dps or heals to get through current content requirements. There are at least three years’ worth of dps and heal checks that are not being adjusted here. Some will be impossible for anyone to complete; others will be so far out of reach for so many more players that they really might as well not even try. That’s not ok. And they don’t make sweeping systemic content changes during incrementals, so we are talking a whole major update to wait if they don’t put the content adjustments in with the player adjustments this patch.

Why would players at any level want to stick around for a whole quarter of that to see if the devs feel like rebalancing their content? Why is that content not being rebalanced alongside the massive adjustments to dps and heals? Not just speaking of the 25%+ loss to raw output either but the cadence too - how many times do we have to point out that restricting our HoTs to once every 2 seconds doesn’t seem to answer well to damage incoming on a second or half-second or 5+-times-per-second basis? There are going to have to be a lot of adjustments in a lot of content. It’s not reasonable to ask players to hold out for several months of this mismatch to make content accessible again - or rather to see if ZOS even wants to, since they haven’t (as far as I’m aware) announced intentions to do so.

That doesn’t begin to cover the massive class identity issues all this is going to exacerbate instead of help. Take stamplar, for example: switching from ground-based to sticky DoTs sounds fine in theory, until that means dropping one of three class skills left on the bar for some generic skill everyone else will be using too - and it baffles me why they spent time and money on redoing the animation for jabs when we’ll need to switch to a weapon-line spammable if we want to claw back a bit of the damage we’re losing. And we won’t be bothering with our class-specific set anymore, since it wasn’t adjusted to compensate and took an indirect nerf of somewhere around 25-30%. If all this goes live, we’ll be “adapting” ourselves right out of class identity entirely. The devs explicitly said back with Elsweyr that they did not want a “class-agnostic meta” - but that was exactly what they gave us then and that’s exactly what they’re threatening to give us again now. They seem to be really struggling to come up with design changes that successfully implement their vision and stated goals.

[edited to remove quote]

starkerealm · July 2022

xgoku1 wrote: »

In U35, with more forgiving LA weaving and less stress DoT upkeep, the average players' DPS goes up. That's the idea.

That may be the idea, but it's not the reality. Their actual DPS falls off a cliff in most cases.

xgoku1 · July 2022

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

Because very few enemies in this game are kind enough to sit still and allow you to whack them for 20+seconds

That's exactly the point. It feels boring because you're whacking the dummy. In a real PvE situation you focus on a lot more things like placement, AoEs, team callouts etc.

Let's say you don't LA weave, the difference in U35 is that your DPS loss is 2-4% lesser than in U34 for meta builds.

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

xgoku1 wrote: »

Enemy-of-Coldharbour wrote: »

OP Quote: The current DPS ceiling goes upto 140k+

The average player comes nowhere close to that.

Okay? It's called ceiling for a reason. The average player's DPS is between floor and ceiling.

In U35, with more forgiving LA weaving and less stress DoT upkeep, the average players' DPS goes up. That's the idea.

except light/heavy attacks and dot dmg is getting flat nerfed, from what ive been seeing a top tier end gamer who modified their build loses like 10-15% dmg, a mid to low tier player loses 40-50% of their dmg

so how is this helping an average dps player? it doesnt

if they only added longer timers without changing tick rate, dmg per tick on the DoTs then yes it might have helped the average player

DoT damage was nerfed by 33% but with the same cost so that players can use active skills more, which makes up the difference. The LA damage still contributes around 8-9k damage on the 21m dummy, which is 2-4% lower.

How are they losing 50% of their damage, if their competence remained the same?

starkerealm · July 2022

pklemming wrote: »

Nothing in these patch notes are good. Nothing

Now, that's just unfair: They made Dawn Prisms cheaper. /s

redlink1979 · July 2022

Raid dummy on PTS inflates the parse.

Dragonlord573 · July 2022

xgoku1 wrote: »

fizl101 wrote: »

Those who play more casually will still continue to play as is. People in the middle will be hit very hard.

How so? Have you tested this?

This doesn't even make sense on paper. In the current system, a so-called "average player" has to keep up DoTs every 7-8 seconds realistically. In the new system they have to do it half as much, over the course of the whole fight this means that the number of missed DoTs will be cut in half?

Feedback from content creators like Deltia say the opposite, where he got >80k DPS without stressing

The average player is hitting between 30-60k. Someone on PTS who hits 60k got knocked down to 48k. It's going to effect the average player badly.

SeaGtGruff · July 2022

Hortator Indoril Nerevar wrote: »

5. The world first guild to get vDreadsailReef trifecta all quit because it will no longer be POSSIBLE to do it. Its not a case of adapt and do it slower but IT WONT EVEN BE PHYSICALLY POSSIBLE anymore.

6. Noone will do last boss vRockgrove trifecta/hm because it wont be possible. At all.

Are you certain? Has anyone actually tried on the PTS yet? Anyway, I'm thinking (or rather, hoping) that certain highest-tier content might get nerfed a bit to compensate for lowered DPS. At least, I think it would make sense to do that.

Hortator Indoril Nerevar wrote: »

7. Everyone does less dps including the casuals. Somehow they are convinced this is only a top dps nerf.

So far, I haven't noticed any appreciable differences between Live and PTS as far as how long it takes me to solo specific PvE content. I don't parse, so I've no idea (and don't care) what my DPS is on either server, but my playstyle isn't heavily dependent upon stringent rotations and LA weaving, so I suppose that's why I'm personally not noticing much of a difference.

In contrast, when certain previous updates went live I immediately noticed some fairly dramatic differences in my ability to clear content due to changes in the resource cost of my skills as well as resource recovery. That led to a lot of frustration for me, so I can certainly commiserate with other players about how frustrating it can be when an update hits you hard.

Hortator Indoril Nerevar wrote: »

[snip]

That seems like bashing and baiting, not to mention I think you're projecting your personal assumptions about other people's motivations and presenting them as though they're facts, which is probably just going to encourage other people to do the same. That isn't helpful at all.
[edited to remove quote]

FantasticFreddie · July 2022

xgoku1 wrote: »

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

Because very few enemies in this game are kind enough to sit still and allow you to whack them for 20+seconds

That's exactly the point. It feels boring because you're whacking the dummy. In a real PvE situation you focus on a lot more things like placement, AoEs, team callouts etc.

Let's say you don't LA weave, the difference in U35 is that your DPS loss is 2-4% lesser than in U34 for meta builds.

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

xgoku1 wrote: »

Enemy-of-Coldharbour wrote: »

OP Quote: The current DPS ceiling goes upto 140k+

The average player comes nowhere close to that.

Okay? It's called ceiling for a reason. The average player's DPS is between floor and ceiling.

In U35, with more forgiving LA weaving and less stress DoT upkeep, the average players' DPS goes up. That's the idea.

except light/heavy attacks and dot dmg is getting flat nerfed, from what ive been seeing a top tier end gamer who modified their build loses like 10-15% dmg, a mid to low tier player loses 40-50% of their dmg

so how is this helping an average dps player? it doesnt

if they only added longer timers without changing tick rate, dmg per tick on the DoTs then yes it might have helped the average player

DoT damage was nerfed by 33% but with the same cost so that players can use active skills more, which makes up the difference. The LA damage still contributes around 8-9k damage on the 21m dummy, which is 2-4% lower.

How are they losing 50% of their damage, if their competence remained the same?

You somehow ran face-first into the point and still missed it.

PEOPLE ARE LOSING DAMAGE BECAUSE BY AND LARGE THEY WILL NOT BENEFIT FROM THE LONGER TIMERS EXCEPT ON DUMMY PARSES

Necrotech_Master · July 2022

xgoku1 wrote: »

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

Because very few enemies in this game are kind enough to sit still and allow you to whack them for 20+seconds

That's exactly the point. It feels boring because you're whacking the dummy. In a real PvE situation you focus on a lot more things like placement, AoEs, team callouts etc.

Let's say you don't LA weave, the difference in U35 is that your DPS loss is 2-4% lesser than in U34 for meta builds.

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

xgoku1 wrote: »

Enemy-of-Coldharbour wrote: »

OP Quote: The current DPS ceiling goes upto 140k+

The average player comes nowhere close to that.

Okay? It's called ceiling for a reason. The average player's DPS is between floor and ceiling.

In U35, with more forgiving LA weaving and less stress DoT upkeep, the average players' DPS goes up. That's the idea.

except light/heavy attacks and dot dmg is getting flat nerfed, from what ive been seeing a top tier end gamer who modified their build loses like 10-15% dmg, a mid to low tier player loses 40-50% of their dmg

so how is this helping an average dps player? it doesnt

if they only added longer timers without changing tick rate, dmg per tick on the DoTs then yes it might have helped the average player

DoT damage was nerfed by 33% but with the same cost so that players can use active skills more, which makes up the difference. The LA damage still contributes around 8-9k damage on the 21m dummy, which is 2-4% lower.

How are they losing 50% of their damage, if their competence remained the same?

competence cant change the fact that if they were using a heavy attack build for accessibility reasons, that it is going to do 50% less dmg next update, how does that improve their "average dps"?

lordspyder wrote: »

I am disabled and have hand mobility issues. My DPS went from 30k to 15k. I'm now going to be locked into only doing overland content now. But I'm glad you think these changes are good. I hate them.

this is the exact example of why this change is bad, but you dont seem to get it, a straight 50% dps drop between live and PTS dps, going from "moderate/acceptable" dps for most content to barely useable

all i can say is when the total group dps in a vet dungeon is 25-30k instead of 60k, have fun slogging away on that boss with the same spammable 20x in a row before recasting dots lol

virtus753 · July 2022

starkerealm wrote: »

pklemming wrote: »

Nothing in these patch notes are good. Nothing

Now, that's just unfair: They made Dawn Prisms cheaper. /s

My literal years of writing bug reports about CP 160 intricate shields finally paid off.

I wish I were joking.

xgoku1 · July 2022

Holycannoli wrote: »

So if they're going to adjust all content to fit this patch, why change anything at all? Why nerf damage and then content so that the damage nerf doesn't affect gameplay? That's an awful lot of work that can be avoided by simply not going forward with the combat changes at all.

For future content? Because the DPS powercreep has to be addressed at some point, and adding new content will just add to the pile of things to be adjusted when they "fix" the combat?

They say so on the Developer Comment, that they are making these changes to make better combat design decisions by having a standard DPS range from floor to ceiling, which a smaller delta.

Pevey wrote: »

Fixed it for you.

EDIT:

I also want to point out that 80k on the new pts dummy, if normalized, is LESS THAN THE 35k ON THE 3m/6m DUMMY THAT USED TO BE REQUIRED FOR VMOL YEARS AGO.

Ponder that. And ponder how this will improve accessibility to vet content.

Parsing on the 21 mil dummy is always boring. Deciding whether you like the combat system based on how it feels on the 21 mil dummy is pretty dumb IMO.

On the dummy parse you might spam spammable 180 times, but in a real fight, that's probably closer to 10-15 per DPS phase. And 100k+ is possible, Deltia says those weren't his best parses. There's no need to normalize, the 21m dummy provides standard buffs that you get in a coordinated trial group

shadyjane62 · July 2022

Well they can keep the 10% that like this and lose the rest of us. Clear choice.

Holycannoli · July 2022

xgoku1 wrote: »

That's absolutely me. And I'm glad they decided to do something about LA weaving at this point.

They tried to change this in 2020, which I think was before they started wasting time changing things around. If they addressed it back then, we probably wouldn't be so jaded at this point.

LA weaving is not why people are jaded.

starkerealm · July 2022

Holycannoli wrote: »

xgoku1 wrote: »

That's absolutely me. And I'm glad they decided to do something about LA weaving at this point.

They tried to change this in 2020, which I think was before they started wasting time changing things around. If they addressed it back then, we probably wouldn't be so jaded at this point.

LA weaving is not why people are jaded.

Five years of constant, seismic, changes to the game may be a factor.

xgoku1 · July 2022

Pevey wrote: »

MMOs imploding because of [snip] developers pushing through game updates despite objections from the community is also as old as MMOs themselves.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I'm just saying, sunk time cost is a real thing. People with thousands of hours in this game are gonna think real hard about quitting something they've invested so much time into.

I guess I just don't agree that this combat change will kill ESO. Quite the contrary, I think a lot of people on the fence about ESO who don't like the combat because of animation canceling and DoT heavy playstyle might be more interested post U35.

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

a tick every 2 sec means the dps of the tick is 50% of what its doing, and with tick dmg down an avg of 33% (some its less some its more like winters revenge for warden) that is going to make them awful to use

I think a lot of these specific DoTs will be addressed in the live Patch Notes

[edited to remove quote]

xgoku1 · July 2022

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

The power increase people are going to see is literally on dummy parses, and only from extremely specific builds and people.

I haven't found any raid videos from the U35 PTS yet, there's only Dummy parses to go on. I haven't seen any examples of actual combat content to compare with U34 Live, that's why I'm only talking about dummy parses.

Holycannoli wrote: »

LA weaving is not why people are jaded.

Yeah, people are tired of ZOS making big changes, it's been worse since 2020 is what I meant. I do think LA weaving is something that should be addressed at some point though, because it is a major pain point for new players and the like.

Necrotech_Master · July 2022

xgoku1 wrote: »

Pevey wrote: »

MMOs imploding because of [snip] developers pushing through game updates despite objections from the community is also as old as MMOs themselves.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I'm just saying, sunk time cost is a real thing. People with thousands of hours in this game are gonna think real hard about quitting something they've invested so much time into.

I guess I just don't agree that this combat change will kill ESO. Quite the contrary, I think a lot of people on the fence about ESO who don't like the combat because of animation canceling and DoT heavy playstyle might be more interested post U35.

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

a tick every 2 sec means the dps of the tick is 50% of what its doing, and with tick dmg down an avg of 33% (some its less some its more like winters revenge for warden) that is going to make them awful to use

I think a lot of these specific DoTs will be addressed in the live Patch Notes

to the bolded point in your first part: DoT heavy gameplay is getting downright significantly nerfed and does not change the fact you will need to use a spammable skill, why would anyone want to play a dot heavy build when their dmg is gonna be so awful?

and for your other reply, i really hope they do address some of these massive nerfs in a positive direction (they could for whatever reason, FURTHER nerf things too, i wouldnt put it past them honestly lol)

[edited to remove quote]

Dragonnord · July 2022

1 - Only the 1% of groups (maybe less) can complete vAS and vCR with those timings.

2 - Those parses are dummy numbers. In the next patch, go do the same damage with 20-second DoTs on a moving target in dungeons and trials and show us the results.

3 - There is no way you can complete some of the vRG HM and vDSR HM with those numbers (because of damage check mechanics) in the next patch.

4 - Several of the new hard modes for dungeons and trials (since a few patches back now) were created for high damage, but now damage is reduced 35k/40k. So, will the hard modes and rest of similar content be adjusted too? I can answer that for you: No.

CGPsaint · July 2022

Anyone who has pugged a Vet DLC Dungeon recently will know that the average DPS might top out at 30K on a good day, so there is no way that you can convince me that lowering DPS across the board in the way that's being proposed is a good thing.

starkerealm · July 2022

CGPsaint wrote: »

Anyone who has pugged a Vet DLC Dungeon recently will know that the average DPS might top out at 30K on a good day, so there is no way that you can convince me that lowering DPS across the board in the way that's being proposed is a good thing.

And, those 30k DPS players are getting bumped down to 15-20k by this patch. Potentially as far as 10k if they didn't read the notes and went in blind.

At that point, you are dropping below actual DPS checks in existing combat, which will result in failed PUGs.

xgoku1 · July 2022

Dragonlord573 wrote: »

The average player is hitting between 30-60k. Someone on PTS who hits 60k got knocked down to 48k. It's going to effect the average player badly.

Okay, so this assumes that the ceiling remains the same though. A 12k drop in DPS is devastating if the max DPS stayed above 110-120k like now.

But people are saying the ceiling is now 80-90k, so it's a proportionate DPS drop. Trial groups will adapt with 80-90k as max DPS, and a lower "entry" DPS with the new U35 numbers

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

competence cant change the fact that if they were using a heavy attack build for accessibility reasons, that it is going to do 50% less dmg next update, how does that improve their "average dps"?

Can't this be fixed by changing their build? Buffs to HA from things like Maelstrom backbar, Storm Master, the new Empower are still options. I'm yet to see any HA build for U35 so I can't really verify any numbers.

starkerealm · July 2022

xgoku1 wrote: »

[

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

competence cant change the fact that if they were using a heavy attack build for accessibility reasons, that it is going to do 50% less dmg next update, how does that improve their "average dps"?

Can't this be fixed by changing their build?

In some cases, no.

Heavy attack builds have become very popular among older members of the community and those with physical impairments, specifically because it allowed them to meaningfully participate in content that would otherwise be closed to them.

Part of the popularity of Oakensoul can also be attributed to this group.

These are players who, quite literally, do not have the option to play a more conventional build, and ZOS has decided to slam the door on them, and their hands.

Cast_El · July 2022

You didn't try to play templar in PTS I guess