If you actually cared about those with accessibility issues...

Sallymen · July 2022

I see the argument spewed on the forums and on Twitter about these changes benefit casual or mid-tier players (They do not but this is not the point of this post). The argument is that these changes help those with accessibility issues, those who cannot play the game like the average player. For example, someone with nerve issues in their hands, only have one hand, etc. But nerfing damage and adjusting timers for abilities is not the way, if all of you REALLY want to care about those with any form of accessibility issues start looking at the dungeon and trial mechanics.

My issue is that these dungeons and trials have never been easy to those who do not have full accessibility due to inconsistent mechanics. I have trifecta achievements for all the dungeons in this game except for the recent dungeon pair of Ascending Tide. (Coral Aerie and Shipwright's Regret), and there are plenty of mechanics that are just outright unfair to players who are hard of hearing, colorblind, or do not have full hand-eye coordination.

Examples of inconsistent mechanics:

-Visual reliant / color mechanics: Lair of Maarselok vs White-Gold Tower: In Lair of Maarselok, players can get infected by the Maarselok which can spawn a lurcher on the player and insta killing them, they can cleanse it by synergizing a pad. Before coming up to the final boss you or one of your three other party members can get infected and the only visual cue is your character turning a slight blue... however this effect CAN be covered up quite easily from other set visuals and class abilities. Aka you cannot see it when it infects you most of the time. The only way to see it would be to have an addon or one of your members having a good eye. What White-Gold Tower has something similar, a player gets infected and chosen to see portals, only they can destroy them if they are picked but the visual here is that your screen turns a different hue and audio distorts - which still has it's own problems but is way better than the Lair of Maarselok visual of being cursed.
SOLUTION: Have a warning to the player that THEY are the ones infected or have a more obnoxious effect rather than a slight color change to your player model.

-Fang Lair HM walls. The instant kill radius does not clearly indicate where the hitbox starts and ends. The Ghost walls blend in with Thurvokun to make it difficult to see for someone who is not colorblind, let alone someone who is. This also applies to the Aurorean walls of Depths of Malatar; these walls are also inconsistent as they can clip you even if you do not touch them. Seems as if the effects of these walls are shorter than the actual hit box... I mean it's hard to tell because the hitboxes are not visible at all. This is a problem that is still current as well with the new High Isle release of one of the new World Boss mechanics. The walls still hit the player even if they are well out of it.
SOLUTION: "Add the red aoe hitbox underneath these wall mechanics (Or make the Ghost Wall in Fang Lair a different color / effect than Thurvokun's posion aura). There are some instances where I go through a wall and survive but also seem to be nowhere near it and still get insta killed. Adding a visual will help players see where the wall actually ends and start so they do not die unfairly."

-Audio cues without other visuals: Domihaus Grovel, King Narilmor split to name just a few.
Domihaus' grovel is just a straight-up audio cue that leads into an instant kill. Sure the solution is to put on subtitles but in the heat of the battle of his ads spawning can lead to difficulty focusing on the boss alone. King Narilmor's split projection also has an audio cue of the real boss has his voice coming out of the "real" model.
SOLUTION: For King Narilmor's fight, I do not have a solution since you could burn the projections down, but if DPS is going down the drain, then the health on them should be adjusted. Domihaus's simple solution would be a slight tremor or shake effect to indicate he is about to do his instant kill mechanic.

-Jump mechanics in general, especially on uneven and broken terrain: Maw of Lorkaj (Backroom mechanic), Unhallowed Secret bosses, Frostvault Dwarven Centurion Bubble lasers, Coral Aerie Hard Mode.
This is self-explanatory in why this could cause accessibility issues. Jump mechanics are rare, but they do exist—one of them is going to the first secret boss. I had several random players who are just unable to scale the first secret boss area because they are PHYSICALLY unable to and keep falling off and dying. The Dwarven Centurion bubble is different in the sense that you can hide behind the bubble, I am mentioning it here though is because this is one of the mechanics that ZoS does right as an alternative to those who cannot jump the lasers... I wish the same could be said about Coral Aerie's HM, where jumping the lightning tornado swirls is like playing Mario, and there is no alternative way of avoiding it that does not involve mashing the jump key and mashing other buttons to do damage.
SOLUTIONS: Alternative ways to do these mechanics / navigate the terrain or just rework how to do them.

Notable mentions of broken mechanics that affect those with limited accessibility:
-Moongrave Fane Cubes NOT moving, VERY important for Gargoyle boss where you HAVE to plug in the volcanoes with the cubes.
-Grapple Hook mechanic which is required to progress in Unhallowed albeit fun, can be broken and have people fall to their deaths. - This ALSO applies to in Vatestran.
-Darkshade Cavern II final boss, the boss moves constantly making it difficult for some to keep up to reapply their AoEs (God forbid the PTS changes make it to live and makes this problem worse for mid-tier players.)

Listed the three example to name a few. I might post more examples but I want to leave a quote from a friend who does dungeons with me and what they have to say about the new changes in the PTS currently: "As someone with nerve damage, making me hit 1 button 20+ times (not that DK is going to be viable, lol) is actually worse than keeping up a rotation and I know I'm not the only one who feels that way."

No one is happy about these changes, ESO Team. If you want to make the game accessible, look into your dungeon and trial mechanics. Instead of adjusting player numbers.

MidniteOwl1913 · July 2022

Sallymen wrote: »

I see the argument spewed on the forums and on Twitter about these changes benefit casual or mid-tier players (They do not but this is not the point of this post). The argument is that these changes help those with accessibility issues, those who cannot play the game like the average player. For example, someone with nerve issues in their hands, only have one hand, etc. But nerfing damage and adjusting timers for abilities is not the way, if all of you REALLY want to care about those with any form of accessibility issues start looking at the dungeon and trial mechanics.

My issue is that these dungeons and trials have never been easy to those who do not have full accessibility due to inconsistent mechanics. I have trifecta achievements for all the dungeons in this game except for the recent dungeon pair of Ascending Tide. (Coral Aerie and Shipwright's Regret), and there are plenty of mechanics that are just outright unfair to players who are hard of hearing, colorblind, or do not have full hand-eye coordination.

Examples of inconsistent mechanics:

-Visual reliant / color mechanics: Lair of Maarselok vs White-Gold Tower: In Lair of Maarselok, players can get infected by the Maarselok which can spawn a lurcher on the player and insta killing them, they can cleanse it by synergizing a pad. Before coming up to the final boss you or one of your three other party members can get infected and the only visual cue is your character turning a slight blue... however this effect CAN be covered up quite easily from other set visuals and class abilities. Aka you cannot see it when it infects you most of the time. The only way to see it would be to have an addon or one of your members having a good eye. What White-Gold Tower has something similar, a player gets infected and chosen to see portals, only they can destroy them if they are picked but the visual here is that your screen turns a different hue and audio distorts - which still has it's own problems but is way better than the Lair of Maarselok visual of being cursed.
SOLUTION: Have a warning to the player that THEY are the ones infected or have a more obnoxious effect rather than a slight color change to your player model.

-Fang Lair HM walls. The instant kill radius does not clearly indicate where the hitbox starts and ends. The Ghost walls blend in with Thurvokun to make it difficult to see for someone who is not colorblind, let alone someone who is. This also applies to the Aurorean walls of Depths of Malatar; these walls are also inconsistent as they can clip you even if you do not touch them. Seems as if the effects of these walls are shorter than the actual hit box... I mean it's hard to tell because the hitboxes are not visible at all. This is a problem that is still current as well with the new High Isle release of one of the new World Boss mechanics. The walls still hit the player even if they are well out of it.
SOLUTION: "Add the red aoe hitbox underneath these wall mechanics (Or make the Ghost Wall in Fang Lair a different color / effect than Thurvokun's posion aura). There are some instances where I go through a wall and survive but also seem to be nowhere near it and still get insta killed. Adding a visual will help players see where the wall actually ends and start so they do not die unfairly."

-Audio cues without other visuals: Domihaus Grovel, King Narilmor split to name just a few.
Domihaus' grovel is just a straight-up audio cue that leads into an instant kill. Sure the solution is to put on subtitles but in the heat of the battle of his ads spawning can lead to difficulty focusing on the boss alone. King Narilmor's split projection also has an audio cue of the real boss has his voice coming out of the "real" model.
SOLUTION: For King Narilmor's fight, I do not have a solution since you could burn the projections down, but if DPS is going down the drain, then the health on them should be adjusted. Domihaus's simple solution would be a slight tremor or shake effect to indicate he is about to do his instant kill mechanic.

-Jump mechanics in general, especially on uneven and broken terrain: Maw or Lorkaj (Backroom mechanic), Unhallowed Secret bosses, Frostvault Dwarven Centurion Bubble lasers, Coral Aerie Hard Mode.
This is self-explanatory in why this could cause accessibility issues. Jump mechanics are rare, but they do exist—one of them is going to the first secret boss. I had several random players who are just unable to scale the first secret boss area because they are PHYSICALLY unable to and keep falling off and dying. The Dwarven Centurion bubble is different in the sense that you can hide behind the bubble, I am mentioning it here though is because this is one of the mechanics that ZoS does right as an alternative to those who cannot jump the lasers... I wish the same could be said about Coral Aerie's HM, where jumping the lightning tornado swirls is like playing Mario, and there is no alternative way of avoiding it that does not involve mashing the jump key and mashing other buttons to do damage.

Notable mentions of broken mechanics that affect those with limited accessibility:
-Moongrave Fane Cubes NOT moving, VERY important for Gargoyle boss where you HAVE to plug in the volcanoes with the cubes.
-Grapple Hook mechanic which is required to progress in Unhallowed albeit fun, can be broken and have people fall to their deaths. - This ALSO applies to in Vatestran.
-Darkshade Cavern II final boss, the boss moves constantly making it difficult for some to keep up to reapply their AoEs (God forbid the PTS changes make it to live and makes this problem worse for mid-tier players.)

Listed the three example to name a few. I might post more examples but I want to leave a quote from a friend who does dungeons with me and what they have to say about the new changes in the PTS currently: "As someone with nerve damage, making me hit 1 button 20+ times (not that DK is going to be viable, lol) is actually worse than keeping up a rotation and I know I'm not the only one who feels that way."

No one is happy about these changes, ESO Team. If you want to make the game accessible, look into your dungeon and trial mechanics. Instead of adjusting player numbers.

Great post!

I don't think they care about those with accessibility issues. Oakensoul has been a great help to me, making things possible now that I just couldn't do before. It's much worse to show me what it would be like if I didn't have problems and then to take that help away than to have never had the help at all. My trust in ZOS is gone.

SickleCider · July 2022

This has honestly been what has been upsetting me. The changes are unfortunate, but if they gave a candid reason for them it wouldn't get my dander up. First they release an "accessibility option" (Oakensoul) behind a pay wall AND a grind; a grind that people that need accessibility may find challenging. Then they release these nerfs (which include gutting the former "accessibility option"), in the name of "accessibility," in spite of the fact that they're going to only make things more challenging for everyone across the board. All while ignoring frequent requests for real accessibility options from those that could really use them. They want to appease people that need accessibility and soften the changes for everyone else by being disingenuous.

Haarkan · July 2022

Mechanics having different forms of warning that are small to begin with makes finding out what's an issue far more difficult then it has any need to be. Solid post.

festegios · July 2022

Lair of marselok has a symbol on your buff bar to tell you that you have the curse

A lot of the other issues As you said are quite fustrating.

Better visual cue’s would be better

Sallymen · July 2022

festegios wrote: »

Lair of marselok has a symbol on your buff bar to tell you that you have the curse

A lot of the other issues As you said are quite fustrating.

Better visual cue’s would be better

The issue with this is that some people have the buff a debuff toggles off or addons that change the UI where it doesn't show.

Jaraal · July 2022

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

Sallymen wrote: »

I see the argument spewed on the forums and on Twitter about these changes benefit casual or mid-tier players (They do not but this is not the point of this post). The argument is that these changes help those with accessibility issues, those who cannot play the game like the average player. For example, someone with nerve issues in their hands, only have one hand, etc. But nerfing damage and adjusting timers for abilities is not the way, if all of you REALLY want to care about those with any form of accessibility issues start looking at the dungeon and trial mechanics.

My issue is that these dungeons and trials have never been easy to those who do not have full accessibility due to inconsistent mechanics. I have trifecta achievements for all the dungeons in this game except for the recent dungeon pair of Ascending Tide. (Coral Aerie and Shipwright's Regret), and there are plenty of mechanics that are just outright unfair to players who are hard of hearing, colorblind, or do not have full hand-eye coordination.

Examples of inconsistent mechanics:

-Visual reliant / color mechanics: Lair of Maarselok vs White-Gold Tower: In Lair of Maarselok, players can get infected by the Maarselok which can spawn a lurcher on the player and insta killing them, they can cleanse it by synergizing a pad. Before coming up to the final boss you or one of your three other party members can get infected and the only visual cue is your character turning a slight blue... however this effect CAN be covered up quite easily from other set visuals and class abilities. Aka you cannot see it when it infects you most of the time. The only way to see it would be to have an addon or one of your members having a good eye. What White-Gold Tower has something similar, a player gets infected and chosen to see portals, only they can destroy them if they are picked but the visual here is that your screen turns a different hue and audio distorts - which still has it's own problems but is way better than the Lair of Maarselok visual of being cursed.
SOLUTION: Have a warning to the player that THEY are the ones infected or have a more obnoxious effect rather than a slight color change to your player model.

-Fang Lair HM walls. The instant kill radius does not clearly indicate where the hitbox starts and ends. The Ghost walls blend in with Thurvokun to make it difficult to see for someone who is not colorblind, let alone someone who is. This also applies to the Aurorean walls of Depths of Malatar; these walls are also inconsistent as they can clip you even if you do not touch them. Seems as if the effects of these walls are shorter than the actual hit box... I mean it's hard to tell because the hitboxes are not visible at all. This is a problem that is still current as well with the new High Isle release of one of the new World Boss mechanics. The walls still hit the player even if they are well out of it.
SOLUTION: "Add the red aoe hitbox underneath these wall mechanics (Or make the Ghost Wall in Fang Lair a different color / effect than Thurvokun's posion aura). There are some instances where I go through a wall and survive but also seem to be nowhere near it and still get insta killed. Adding a visual will help players see where the wall actually ends and start so they do not die unfairly."

-Audio cues without other visuals: Domihaus Grovel, King Narilmor split to name just a few.
Domihaus' grovel is just a straight-up audio cue that leads into an instant kill. Sure the solution is to put on subtitles but in the heat of the battle of his ads spawning can lead to difficulty focusing on the boss alone. King Narilmor's split projection also has an audio cue of the real boss has his voice coming out of the "real" model.
SOLUTION: For King Narilmor's fight, I do not have a solution since you could burn the projections down, but if DPS is going down the drain, then the health on them should be adjusted. Domihaus's simple solution would be a slight tremor or shake effect to indicate he is about to do his instant kill mechanic.

-Jump mechanics in general, especially on uneven and broken terrain: Maw or Lorkaj (Backroom mechanic), Unhallowed Secret bosses, Frostvault Dwarven Centurion Bubble lasers, Coral Aerie Hard Mode.
This is self-explanatory in why this could cause accessibility issues. Jump mechanics are rare, but they do exist—one of them is going to the first secret boss. I had several random players who are just unable to scale the first secret boss area because they are PHYSICALLY unable to and keep falling off and dying. The Dwarven Centurion bubble is different in the sense that you can hide behind the bubble, I am mentioning it here though is because this is one of the mechanics that ZoS does right as an alternative to those who cannot jump the lasers... I wish the same could be said about Coral Aerie's HM, where jumping the lightning tornado swirls is like playing Mario, and there is no alternative way of avoiding it that does not involve mashing the jump key and mashing other buttons to do damage.

Notable mentions of broken mechanics that affect those with limited accessibility:
-Moongrave Fane Cubes NOT moving, VERY important for Gargoyle boss where you HAVE to plug in the volcanoes with the cubes.
-Grapple Hook mechanic which is required to progress in Unhallowed albeit fun, can be broken and have people fall to their deaths. - This ALSO applies to in Vatestran.
-Darkshade Cavern II final boss, the boss moves constantly making it difficult for some to keep up to reapply their AoEs (God forbid the PTS changes make it to live and makes this problem worse for mid-tier players.)

Listed the three example to name a few. I might post more examples but I want to leave a quote from a friend who does dungeons with me and what they have to say about the new changes in the PTS currently: "As someone with nerve damage, making me hit 1 button 20+ times (not that DK is going to be viable, lol) is actually worse than keeping up a rotation and I know I'm not the only one who feels that way."

No one is happy about these changes, ESO Team. If you want to make the game accessible, look into your dungeon and trial mechanics. Instead of adjusting player numbers.

Great post!

I don't think they care about those with accessibility issues. Oakensoul has been a great help to me, making things possible now that I just couldn't do before. It's much worse to show me what it would be like if I didn't have problems and then to take that help away than to have never had the help at all. My trust in ZOS is gone.

Wow, that’s sad. To infuse hope like that, and then pull the rug out later. Plus your damaging ability will be even further restricted when the light attack and DOT nerfs hit on top of that.

There’s still time and hope for a reversal, but the updates usually get pushed out with minimal changes.

MidniteOwl1913 · July 2022

Jaraal wrote: »

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

Sallymen wrote: »

I see the argument spewed on the forums and on Twitter about these changes benefit casual or mid-tier players (They do not but this is not the point of this post). The argument is that these changes help those with accessibility issues, those who cannot play the game like the average player. For example, someone with nerve issues in their hands, only have one hand, etc. But nerfing damage and adjusting timers for abilities is not the way, if all of you REALLY want to care about those with any form of accessibility issues start looking at the dungeon and trial mechanics.

My issue is that these dungeons and trials have never been easy to those who do not have full accessibility due to inconsistent mechanics. I have trifecta achievements for all the dungeons in this game except for the recent dungeon pair of Ascending Tide. (Coral Aerie and Shipwright's Regret), and there are plenty of mechanics that are just outright unfair to players who are hard of hearing, colorblind, or do not have full hand-eye coordination.

Examples of inconsistent mechanics:

-Visual reliant / color mechanics: Lair of Maarselok vs White-Gold Tower: In Lair of Maarselok, players can get infected by the Maarselok which can spawn a lurcher on the player and insta killing them, they can cleanse it by synergizing a pad. Before coming up to the final boss you or one of your three other party members can get infected and the only visual cue is your character turning a slight blue... however this effect CAN be covered up quite easily from other set visuals and class abilities. Aka you cannot see it when it infects you most of the time. The only way to see it would be to have an addon or one of your members having a good eye. What White-Gold Tower has something similar, a player gets infected and chosen to see portals, only they can destroy them if they are picked but the visual here is that your screen turns a different hue and audio distorts - which still has it's own problems but is way better than the Lair of Maarselok visual of being cursed.
SOLUTION: Have a warning to the player that THEY are the ones infected or have a more obnoxious effect rather than a slight color change to your player model.

-Fang Lair HM walls. The instant kill radius does not clearly indicate where the hitbox starts and ends. The Ghost walls blend in with Thurvokun to make it difficult to see for someone who is not colorblind, let alone someone who is. This also applies to the Aurorean walls of Depths of Malatar; these walls are also inconsistent as they can clip you even if you do not touch them. Seems as if the effects of these walls are shorter than the actual hit box... I mean it's hard to tell because the hitboxes are not visible at all. This is a problem that is still current as well with the new High Isle release of one of the new World Boss mechanics. The walls still hit the player even if they are well out of it.
SOLUTION: "Add the red aoe hitbox underneath these wall mechanics (Or make the Ghost Wall in Fang Lair a different color / effect than Thurvokun's posion aura). There are some instances where I go through a wall and survive but also seem to be nowhere near it and still get insta killed. Adding a visual will help players see where the wall actually ends and start so they do not die unfairly."

-Audio cues without other visuals: Domihaus Grovel, King Narilmor split to name just a few.
Domihaus' grovel is just a straight-up audio cue that leads into an instant kill. Sure the solution is to put on subtitles but in the heat of the battle of his ads spawning can lead to difficulty focusing on the boss alone. King Narilmor's split projection also has an audio cue of the real boss has his voice coming out of the "real" model.
SOLUTION: For King Narilmor's fight, I do not have a solution since you could burn the projections down, but if DPS is going down the drain, then the health on them should be adjusted. Domihaus's simple solution would be a slight tremor or shake effect to indicate he is about to do his instant kill mechanic.

-Jump mechanics in general, especially on uneven and broken terrain: Maw or Lorkaj (Backroom mechanic), Unhallowed Secret bosses, Frostvault Dwarven Centurion Bubble lasers, Coral Aerie Hard Mode.
This is self-explanatory in why this could cause accessibility issues. Jump mechanics are rare, but they do exist—one of them is going to the first secret boss. I had several random players who are just unable to scale the first secret boss area because they are PHYSICALLY unable to and keep falling off and dying. The Dwarven Centurion bubble is different in the sense that you can hide behind the bubble, I am mentioning it here though is because this is one of the mechanics that ZoS does right as an alternative to those who cannot jump the lasers... I wish the same could be said about Coral Aerie's HM, where jumping the lightning tornado swirls is like playing Mario, and there is no alternative way of avoiding it that does not involve mashing the jump key and mashing other buttons to do damage.

Notable mentions of broken mechanics that affect those with limited accessibility:
-Moongrave Fane Cubes NOT moving, VERY important for Gargoyle boss where you HAVE to plug in the volcanoes with the cubes.
-Grapple Hook mechanic which is required to progress in Unhallowed albeit fun, can be broken and have people fall to their deaths. - This ALSO applies to in Vatestran.
-Darkshade Cavern II final boss, the boss moves constantly making it difficult for some to keep up to reapply their AoEs (God forbid the PTS changes make it to live and makes this problem worse for mid-tier players.)

Listed the three example to name a few. I might post more examples but I want to leave a quote from a friend who does dungeons with me and what they have to say about the new changes in the PTS currently: "As someone with nerve damage, making me hit 1 button 20+ times (not that DK is going to be viable, lol) is actually worse than keeping up a rotation and I know I'm not the only one who feels that way."

No one is happy about these changes, ESO Team. If you want to make the game accessible, look into your dungeon and trial mechanics. Instead of adjusting player numbers.

Great post!

I don't think they care about those with accessibility issues. Oakensoul has been a great help to me, making things possible now that I just couldn't do before. It's much worse to show me what it would be like if I didn't have problems and then to take that help away than to have never had the help at all. My trust in ZOS is gone.

Wow, that’s sad. To infuse hope like that, and then pull the rug out later. Plus your damaging ability will be even further restricted when the light attack and DOT nerfs hit on top of that.

There’s still time and hope for a reversal, but the updates usually get pushed out with minimal changes.

I don't expect them to reserve this. There is no history or reason to think they would. It is sad.

katanagirl1 · July 2022

I was afraid this would happen to Oakensoul and I am disappointed of course. I even tried it in PvP as a solo player but only having one bar meant I had to choose a resto staff and do little damage and survive, or a destro staff and no heals and die a lot more. If I were in a group maybe it would work. This is on console pre-nerf too.

Just options for color blind players would be a huge improvement. My hubby can’t tell red enemies (hostile) from yellow enemies (only defend when attacked) a lot of the time.

Krym · July 2022

Sallymen wrote: »

I see the argument spewed on the forums and on Twitter about these changes benefit casual or mid-tier players (They do not but this is not the point of this post). The argument is that these changes help those with accessibility issues, those who cannot play the game like the average player. For example, someone with nerve issues in their hands, only have one hand, etc. But nerfing damage and adjusting timers for abilities is not the way, if all of you REALLY want to care about those with any form of accessibility issues start looking at the dungeon and trial mechanics.

some stuff I'ld like to add tho:

maarselok you get a debuff when you are infected, if you want to track it enable the in-game debuffs (under combat -> buffs & debuffs at the bottom), enable "always show" (so you see it even when you're not in combat" and disable everything except "self debuffs" and "permanent effects". this should take care of most mechanics that don't have a telegraph in the game, including bubble and lightning stacks in vDSR.
maarselok was actually the dungeon where I found out about it, was annoyed I couldn't see it well either (was wearing gloom grace at the time and it just disappears in the proc). and for DDs it's mostly ever 1 or 2 debuffs, so depending on the fight it should be easy to figure out what it means if it pops up.

maarselok HM requires communication anyway, back when we did it we simply designated numbers or directions.

agree on the walls in fang lair (also malataar), however that's also an issue with ping. I still die more often than I should in scalecaller because the game thinks I'm still in the big aoe.

audio cues depends, you could always have someone call it out in voice chat, or watch in which order the mechanic appears and then be prepared to move when you see the rest of the group move. for non-hm there should be plenty of time for 1 DD to stop and wait for it to focus on hiding. narilmor I think you can see with the shield, but some groups also use ele drain to "mark" a specific copy.

as for jumping, MOL can be done without it (simply safer this way), frostvault originally you had to hide, not dodge; the mechanic itself is pretty simple and not dependent on color or sound. watch which side the "impact" of the laser is, then watch for the second laser, afterwards is always the same direction. or just follow the rest of the group. some bosses still require jumping/grappling tho, I dunno how you could design it differently without scrapping the whole mechanic altogether.

regarding moving targets, you shouldn't really use ground AOEs during that fight in darkshade anyway. even a weaker single target dot that does less damage but stays on the boss will be more helpful. mage guild has 2, fighter's guild another for example.

Sallymen wrote: »

Listed the three example to name a few. I might post more examples but I want to leave a quote from a friend who does dungeons with me and what they have to say about the new changes in the PTS currently: "As someone with nerve damage, making me hit 1 button 20+ times (not that DK is going to be viable, lol) is actually worse than keeping up a rotation and I know I'm not the only one who feels that way."

No one is happy about these changes, ESO Team. If you want to make the game accessible, look into your dungeon and trial mechanics. Instead of adjusting player numbers.

dunno, if he can push different buttons staying on one for longer with more room for error shouldn't be an issue. in his case I wouldn't knock it before trying, heck for DKs it's basically like wearing elf bane. they also still do fine, besides the doom & gloom everyone is wallowing in (granted some classes have it much worse).

there's also a line how much you can make something accessible, contrary to popular belief ZOS wants MORE people to be able to play the game, not less, and any change will affect several people at once, that's just how it is.

Sallymen wrote: »

The issue with this is that some people have the buff a debuff toggles off or addons that change the UI where it doesn't show.

that's not ZOS' or the game's fault.

BretonMage · July 2022

Sallymen wrote: »

I see the argument spewed on the forums and on Twitter about these changes benefit casual or mid-tier players (They do not but this is not the point of this post). The argument is that these changes help those with accessibility issues, those who cannot play the game like the average player. For example, someone with nerve issues in their hands, only have one hand, etc. But nerfing damage and adjusting timers for abilities is not the way, if all of you REALLY want to care about those with any form of accessibility issues start looking at the dungeon and trial mechanics.

My issue is that these dungeons and trials have never been easy to those who do not have full accessibility due to inconsistent mechanics. I have trifecta achievements for all the dungeons in this game except for the recent dungeon pair of Ascending Tide. (Coral Aerie and Shipwright's Regret), and there are plenty of mechanics that are just outright unfair to players who are hard of hearing, colorblind, or do not have full hand-eye coordination.

Examples of inconsistent mechanics:

-Visual reliant / color mechanics: Lair of Maarselok vs White-Gold Tower: In Lair of Maarselok, players can get infected by the Maarselok which can spawn a lurcher on the player and insta killing them, they can cleanse it by synergizing a pad. Before coming up to the final boss you or one of your three other party members can get infected and the only visual cue is your character turning a slight blue... however this effect CAN be covered up quite easily from other set visuals and class abilities. Aka you cannot see it when it infects you most of the time. The only way to see it would be to have an addon or one of your members having a good eye. What White-Gold Tower has something similar, a player gets infected and chosen to see portals, only they can destroy them if they are picked but the visual here is that your screen turns a different hue and audio distorts - which still has it's own problems but is way better than the Lair of Maarselok visual of being cursed.
SOLUTION: Have a warning to the player that THEY are the ones infected or have a more obnoxious effect rather than a slight color change to your player model.

-Fang Lair HM walls. The instant kill radius does not clearly indicate where the hitbox starts and ends. The Ghost walls blend in with Thurvokun to make it difficult to see for someone who is not colorblind, let alone someone who is. This also applies to the Aurorean walls of Depths of Malatar; these walls are also inconsistent as they can clip you even if you do not touch them. Seems as if the effects of these walls are shorter than the actual hit box... I mean it's hard to tell because the hitboxes are not visible at all. This is a problem that is still current as well with the new High Isle release of one of the new World Boss mechanics. The walls still hit the player even if they are well out of it.
SOLUTION: "Add the red aoe hitbox underneath these wall mechanics (Or make the Ghost Wall in Fang Lair a different color / effect than Thurvokun's posion aura). There are some instances where I go through a wall and survive but also seem to be nowhere near it and still get insta killed. Adding a visual will help players see where the wall actually ends and start so they do not die unfairly."

-Audio cues without other visuals: Domihaus Grovel, King Narilmor split to name just a few.
Domihaus' grovel is just a straight-up audio cue that leads into an instant kill. Sure the solution is to put on subtitles but in the heat of the battle of his ads spawning can lead to difficulty focusing on the boss alone. King Narilmor's split projection also has an audio cue of the real boss has his voice coming out of the "real" model.
SOLUTION: For King Narilmor's fight, I do not have a solution since you could burn the projections down, but if DPS is going down the drain, then the health on them should be adjusted. Domihaus's simple solution would be a slight tremor or shake effect to indicate he is about to do his instant kill mechanic.

-Jump mechanics in general, especially on uneven and broken terrain: Maw of Lorkaj (Backroom mechanic), Unhallowed Secret bosses, Frostvault Dwarven Centurion Bubble lasers, Coral Aerie Hard Mode.
This is self-explanatory in why this could cause accessibility issues. Jump mechanics are rare, but they do exist—one of them is going to the first secret boss. I had several random players who are just unable to scale the first secret boss area because they are PHYSICALLY unable to and keep falling off and dying. The Dwarven Centurion bubble is different in the sense that you can hide behind the bubble, I am mentioning it here though is because this is one of the mechanics that ZoS does right as an alternative to those who cannot jump the lasers... I wish the same could be said about Coral Aerie's HM, where jumping the lightning tornado swirls is like playing Mario, and there is no alternative way of avoiding it that does not involve mashing the jump key and mashing other buttons to do damage.
SOLUTIONS: Alternative ways to do these mechanics / navigate the terrain or just rework how to do them.

Notable mentions of broken mechanics that affect those with limited accessibility:
-Moongrave Fane Cubes NOT moving, VERY important for Gargoyle boss where you HAVE to plug in the volcanoes with the cubes.
-Grapple Hook mechanic which is required to progress in Unhallowed albeit fun, can be broken and have people fall to their deaths. - This ALSO applies to in Vatestran.
-Darkshade Cavern II final boss, the boss moves constantly making it difficult for some to keep up to reapply their AoEs (God forbid the PTS changes make it to live and makes this problem worse for mid-tier players.)

Listed the three example to name a few. I might post more examples but I want to leave a quote from a friend who does dungeons with me and what they have to say about the new changes in the PTS currently: "As someone with nerve damage, making me hit 1 button 20+ times (not that DK is going to be viable, lol) is actually worse than keeping up a rotation and I know I'm not the only one who feels that way."

No one is happy about these changes, ESO Team. If you want to make the game accessible, look into your dungeon and trial mechanics. Instead of adjusting player numbers.

Thank you for this. Yes to all of it. This is why I dislike mechanics so much. You have to rely on auditory/visual cues and nanosecond-quick reflexes, which I don't have.

AoEnwyr · July 2022

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

Great post!

I don't think they care about those with accessibility issues. Oakensoul has been a great help to me, making things possible now that I just couldn't do before. It's much worse to show me what it would be like if I didn't have problems and then to take that help away than to have never had the help at all. My trust in ZOS is gone.

My main issue with calling Oakensoul an "accessibility" item is that it is locked behind a paywall. Any accessibility feature should be a toggle option within game settings. I'm not suggesting that necessarily means a whole bunch of free buffs, but if they want to incorporate viable one bar/dexterity accessibility features, it should not be an item within a paid expansion.

That's a disability tax and it's terrible. It certainly doesn't deserve praise.

Danikat · July 2022

Did ZOS say the recent balance changes are intended to help accessibility? Or is it only players saying that?

I've not seen ZOS mention it but I haven't seen everything they've put out recently, but to me it sounds like players jumping to conclusions based on the fact that they recently added an accessibility mode and a lot of people confuse making games more accessible for those with disabilities with making them easier.

Which always seems weird to me, because for example making sure every attack telegraph has both an audio and visual component so people who have limited eye sight or hearing get at least one of them isn't going to make it easier for people who can both see and hear to avoid the attack. Likewise making sure text doesn't disappear too fast so people with dyslexia (or again, vision issues) can read it doesn't make the game easier, but it does make it a lot more accessible.

SickleCider · July 2022

Danikat wrote: »

Did ZOS say the recent balance changes are intended to help accessibility? Or is it only players saying that?

I've not seen ZOS mention it but I haven't seen everything they've put out recently, but to me it sounds like players jumping to conclusions based on the fact that they recently added an accessibility mode and a lot of people confuse making games more accessible for those with disabilities with making them easier.

Which always seems weird to me, because for example making sure every attack telegraph has both an audio and visual component so people who have limited eye sight or hearing get at least one of them isn't going to make it easier for people who can both see and hear to avoid the attack. Likewise making sure text doesn't disappear too fast so people with dyslexia (or again, vision issues) can read it doesn't make the game easier, but it does make it a lot more accessible.

"Accessibility" was mentioned in the stickied combat 35 preview thread. Truth be told, the language they used was, as usual, vague. They could have meant that they're simply making the combat easier (I think "approachability" or "intuitiveness" would be better words) or they themselves could be misconstruing "accessibility" with an easier difficulty. The problem, for me, is they keep using that word, more frequently. This follows that ring, with which it was heavily inferred if not outright stated (it was weeks ago now so I'm not going to say with certainty) that it was targeted at people who are unable to keep up with the high APM required for ESO's combat. The reasoning they cite for this change (update 35) follows along the same lines.

Idk, language is vague and not very well thought out, which I guess is the crux of my frustration.

As for the rest you've said: yeah, agreed.

Also: what does that accessibility mode even do? On console. Toggled it on and couldn't tell what changed. No tooltip in game, also searching for the answer online yielded nothing.

ghost_bg_ESO · July 2022

With all the speaking about accessibility i've looked just from curiosity at other game menus focused on this and eso accessibility is decades behind from it. I know it is singleplayer game and some of this just can't be implemented in eso, it is just to give idea what it means:

some short video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcpgMeVWLfI

with more details:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RyCTEWxeZk

etchedpixels · July 2022

There are some much more basic bits of accessibility needed before anyone starts worrying in detail about specific dungeons. And in fact they make fix some of the more specific ones

- Screenreader hooks are missing completely for people with dyslexia and visual problems (and quest choices are not spoken so it's a hard barrier to these people even doing the storyline)
- There is no audio-ping option for standing in stupid, so people with visual problems making it hard to track the whole screen at once suffer a lot, as well as the cases where it is really hard to see
- Some of the visual cues are terribly hard to see with poor eyesight just a tiny spec of yellow on Selene for example. PC has add on raid notifiers and the like that help console has nothing.
- No option to flip the graphics to outline all the mobs and/or important objects (think the tab effect on all live mobs for example) as a disability option

There really also ought to be a bit of tutorial on key reassignment - for example very few people realize you can move light attacks off the mouse if you have hand to hand co-ordination problems from dyspraxia or stroke etc.

It's great ESO is finally waking up to accessibility and I appreciate retrofitting accessibility to really old games is hard.

Danikat · July 2022

SickleCider wrote: »

Also: what does that accessibility mode even do? On console. Toggled it on and couldn't tell what changed. No tooltip in game, also searching for the answer online yielded nothing.

As far as I know on PC it just switches you to the gamepad UI (and possibly turns on subtitles if they weren't on before?) which players assumed is to make it easier to use something other than keyboard and mouse right from the start. I'm not sure if it does anything else.

That's another issue, 'accessibility' is such a vague term that without further clarification it's meaningless. What makes a game more accessible to me as someone with dyslexia is going to be irrelevant to someone who is Deaf or someone who struggles to understand what makes a good build or react quickly enough to telegraphs. There's no such thing as a one-size-fits-all accessibility mode which helps everyone, it needs many different things. (Many of which don't even need to be labelled as dedicated accessibility settings because they'd be useful for everyone, like the ability to change text colours and fonts and resize the UI.)

ZOS_Volpe · July 2022

Greetings,

We've had to remove a few non-constructive and baiting comments from this thread. We would like everyone to keep posts on the subject at hand, as well as keeping things civil and constructive.

If you need to review the rules, you may find them here.

Thank you for your understanding.

Sallymen · July 2022

Krym wrote: »

Sallymen wrote: »

The issue with this is that some people have the buff a debuff toggles off or addons that change the UI where it doesn't show.

that's not ZOS' or the game's fault.

It is neither the player's fault either. A mechanic that spawns and ad that can potentially one shot the player in Vet should have a significant notification rather than a small UI box and a faint blue effect that can easily go un-notice. Like I posted earlier about White-Gold Tower having a more significant impact on changing the hue of your screen and changing the pitch of your audio.

MidniteOwl1913 · July 2022

AoEnwyr wrote: »

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

Great post!

I don't think they care about those with accessibility issues. Oakensoul has been a great help to me, making things possible now that I just couldn't do before. It's much worse to show me what it would be like if I didn't have problems and then to take that help away than to have never had the help at all. My trust in ZOS is gone.

My main issue with calling Oakensoul an "accessibility" item is that it is locked behind a paywall. Any accessibility feature should be a toggle option within game settings. I'm not suggesting that necessarily means a whole bunch of free buffs, but if they want to incorporate viable one bar/dexterity accessibility features, it should not be an item within a paid expansion.

That's a disability tax and it's terrible. It certainly doesn't deserve praise.

Well I guess you were right it *wasn't* an accessibility item. It was just another mythic used to sell and then nerfed.

xaraan · July 2022

I'm sure anything I say against "accessibility" isn't going to look great, but here we go: I feel like you cannot design a game to challenge some players by having veteran and hard mode versions of content, but then also make it so anyone can beat that content. I feel like the game already offers a way for players to complete all content by doing it on normal (or just veteran non-HM if you are in between).

So I guess it doesn't sway me when I see a player that says they are disabled in some fashion saying they can now do veteran or HM b/c of something I view as OP in the game. Now, if they were having trouble completing normal, then I think they have a point. (though there could also be more context into their troubles than just a disability or design, probably have to truly look at each issue individually if there isn't a wise spread problem pointing out a needed change)

spartaxoxo · July 2022

Normal has serious training wheels, and I think it's ridiculous that so many people think people who want something that can challenge them should be satisfied with it. I wonder if everyone who says that regular vet should be so inaccessible that even upper middle players can't complete it have that same energy for when they play Overland and get similarly bored.

SickleCider · July 2022

Danikat wrote: »

SickleCider wrote: »

Also: what does that accessibility mode even do? On console. Toggled it on and couldn't tell what changed. No tooltip in game, also searching for the answer online yielded nothing.

As far as I know on PC it just switches you to the gamepad UI (and possibly turns on subtitles if they weren't on before?) which players assumed is to make it easier to use something other than keyboard and mouse right from the start. I'm not sure if it does anything else.

That's another issue, 'accessibility' is such a vague term that without further clarification it's meaningless. What makes a game more accessible to me as someone with dyslexia is going to be irrelevant to someone who is Deaf or someone who struggles to understand what makes a good build or react quickly enough to telegraphs. There's no such thing as a one-size-fits-all accessibility mode which helps everyone, it needs many different things. (Many of which don't even need to be labelled as dedicated accessibility settings because they'd be useful for everyone, like the ability to change text colours and fonts and resize the UI.)

That's...interesting. It seems like a misnomer to me. Why not call it gamepad mode?! It making its appearance in the console UI is a bit strange too.

Yes, you're absolutely correct, I think. A lot of the "accessibility" options I personally need are global settings that I suspect PC already has. I need things like gamma, hue, and reduced particles, because I'm photophobic. My retinas go into overdrive. These options won't help your dyslexia and certainly won't help someone who is deaf.

I suppose the takeaway is: remain frustrated, but maybe don't get so hung up on the word "accessibility." Thank you, Dani. You're always a sound voice.

Ragged_Claw · July 2022

I don't consider that I have any particular assessiblity needs, but yep to everything in this post. TFW something one-shots you with no warning and you have to check your recap and google wth 'super inferno brain melt charge x6' means and it turns out that when you glow cornflower blue you have 2 seconds to block, roll dodge and dance the macarena before exploding and taking your entire team with you, only you can't see the blue glow because everything else is shiny and flashing.

SickleCider · July 2022

xaraan wrote: »

I'm sure anything I say against "accessibility" isn't going to look great, but here we go: I feel like you cannot design a game to challenge some players by having veteran and hard mode versions of content, but then also make it so anyone can beat that content. I feel like the game already offers a way for players to complete all content by doing it on normal (or just veteran non-HM if you are in between).

So I guess it doesn't sway me when I see a player that says they are disabled in some fashion saying they can now do veteran or HM b/c of something I view as OP in the game. Now, if they were having trouble completing normal, then I think they have a point. (though there could also be more context into their troubles than just a disability or design, probably have to truly look at each issue individually if there isn't a wise spread problem pointing out a needed change)

I mean. I think it's great that people are saying that the item is helping them. Myself, my arthritis acts up less now that I'm not barswapping. But I think everyone can agree that what enables a differently abled person to complete content shouldn't be a sole item that's behind a pay wall and a grind. There need to be systems baked into the game's infrastructure that enable that.

starkerealm · July 2022

Ragged_Claw wrote: »

I don't consider that I have any particular assessiblity needs, but yep to everything in this post. TFW something one-shots you with no warning and you have to check your recap and google wth 'super inferno brain melt charge x6' means and it turns out that when you glow cornflower blue you have 2 seconds to block, roll dodge and dance the macarena before exploding and taking your entire team with you, only you can't see the blue glow because everything else is shiny and flashing.

Honestly, I'm okay with causing a team wipe if it means I don't have to dance the macarena.

SickleCider · July 2022

starkerealm wrote: »

Ragged_Claw wrote: »

I don't consider that I have any particular assessiblity needs, but yep to everything in this post. TFW something one-shots you with no warning and you have to check your recap and google wth 'super inferno brain melt charge x6' means and it turns out that when you glow cornflower blue you have 2 seconds to block, roll dodge and dance the macarena before exploding and taking your entire team with you, only you can't see the blue glow because everything else is shiny and flashing.

Honestly, I'm okay with causing a team wipe if it means I don't have to dance the macarena.

Can I cause a team wipe BY dancing the macarena? 🤔

starkerealm · July 2022

SickleCider wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Ragged_Claw wrote: »

I don't consider that I have any particular assessiblity needs, but yep to everything in this post. TFW something one-shots you with no warning and you have to check your recap and google wth 'super inferno brain melt charge x6' means and it turns out that when you glow cornflower blue you have 2 seconds to block, roll dodge and dance the macarena before exploding and taking your entire team with you, only you can't see the blue glow because everything else is shiny and flashing.

Honestly, I'm okay with causing a team wipe if it means I don't have to dance the macarena.

Can I cause a team wipe BY dancing the macarena? 🤔

...

Yes.

SickleCider · July 2022

starkerealm wrote: »

SickleCider wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Ragged_Claw wrote: »

I don't consider that I have any particular assessiblity needs, but yep to everything in this post. TFW something one-shots you with no warning and you have to check your recap and google wth 'super inferno brain melt charge x6' means and it turns out that when you glow cornflower blue you have 2 seconds to block, roll dodge and dance the macarena before exploding and taking your entire team with you, only you can't see the blue glow because everything else is shiny and flashing.

Honestly, I'm okay with causing a team wipe if it means I don't have to dance the macarena.

Can I cause a team wipe BY dancing the macarena? 🤔

...

Yes.

I feel so powerful. 😈

xaraan · July 2022

SickleCider wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

I'm sure anything I say against "accessibility" isn't going to look great, but here we go: I feel like you cannot design a game to challenge some players by having veteran and hard mode versions of content, but then also make it so anyone can beat that content. I feel like the game already offers a way for players to complete all content by doing it on normal (or just veteran non-HM if you are in between).

So I guess it doesn't sway me when I see a player that says they are disabled in some fashion saying they can now do veteran or HM b/c of something I view as OP in the game. Now, if they were having trouble completing normal, then I think they have a point. (though there could also be more context into their troubles than just a disability or design, probably have to truly look at each issue individually if there isn't a wise spread problem pointing out a needed change)

I mean. I think it's great that people are saying that the item is helping them. Myself, my arthritis acts up less now that I'm not barswapping. But I think everyone can agree that what enables a differently abled person to complete content shouldn't be a sole item that's behind a pay wall and a grind. There need to be systems baked into the game's infrastructure that enable that.

Moving my hands more, not less, helps me. I actually get more problems keeping my hands in one position, but I'm on keyboard/mouse, not sure how differently a controller would be. But I can't disagree that the concept of adding new OP items behind a paywall is anything except making the game P2W.

spartaxoxo · July 2022

Heyyyyyyyyy, Macarena, ay!

Anyway, yeah this game is actually really unfriendly to those with vision issues. It's a shame because there's a lot to like about it.