If you actually cared about those with accessibility issues...

Jaraal

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Heyyyyyyyyy, Macarena, ay!


Anyway, yeah this game is actually really unfriendly to those with vision issues. It's a shame because there's a lot to like about it.

And they felt it would be a good idea to release arms packs with bright flashing lights and sudden sounds when bar swapped. Which many people have said causes them problems to be around when players spam the effects.

Sallymen

Jaraal wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Heyyyyyyyyy, Macarena, ay!


Anyway, yeah this game is actually really unfriendly to those with vision issues. It's a shame because there's a lot to like about it.

And they felt it would be a good idea to release arms packs with bright flashing lights and sudden sounds when bar swapped. Which many people have said causes them problems to be around when players spam the effects.

Which furthers proves the point that the new changes are not about "accessibility issues". Like I listed in the og post that, if they truly care about making their content clearable for those with "accessibility issues" just make their mechanics consistent then we would not be in this mess of doing mental gymnastics of messing with mechanics and skills that are not the issue.

Mik195

If I didn't think that "elite" groups would abuse it, I'd recommend that ZOS add buffs based on people's capabilities. "Based on your performance over the past 6 months or a year, you are a "green-capability" player so you get a 10% "green" buff." Purple and Gold players would have no adjustments.

Very few people would likely take 6-12 months of work and however many play hours required to be rated to get an unfair advantage and if a few do, we can all just roll our eyes at them and move on.

But given how often I can't get skills to fire because of hand issues, having the game acknowledge my incompetence would be appreciated.

tomofhyrule

Sallymen wrote: »

-Visual reliant / color mechanics: Lair of Maarselok vs White-Gold Tower: In Lair of Maarselok, players can get infected by the Maarselok which can spawn a lurcher on the player and insta killing them, they can cleanse it by synergizing a pad. Before coming up to the final boss you or one of your three other party members can get infected and the only visual cue is your character turning a slight blue... however this effect CAN be covered up quite easily from other set visuals and class abilities. Aka you cannot see it when it infects you most of the time. The only way to see it would be to have an addon or one of your members having a good eye. What White-Gold Tower has something similar, a player gets infected and chosen to see portals, only they can destroy them if they are picked but the visual here is that your screen turns a different hue and audio distorts - which still has it's own problems but is way better than the Lair of Maarselok visual of being cursed.
SOLUTION: Have a warning to the player that THEY are the ones infected or have a more obnoxious effect rather than a slight color change to your player model.

Hard agree on the color mechanics especially. Even for people without any disabilities, there are times that the colors aren't displaying correctly that make it impossible to see when you're targeted - namely when you've got a shader effect on your character already.

I play a DK Tank, so Dragon Blood is a pretty common skill for me. And if I've got that up, all I can see of my character is the shade and a pulsing heart. I've had times in Maarselok where the curse goes out but we can't figure out who has it because the Dragon Blood effect completely hides the curse effect... and then we only see I have it when I end up spawning the lurcher, unless we figure out that 1) someone's cursed and 2) it's not anyone else so it has to be me.

Ditto for the first boss in DSR, since the tanks will periodically drop really heavy fire/ice AoEs during the fight. Normally you can barely see a fire or frost effect on the character to tell you you're about to start dropping them... but if your character is practically invisible due to Dragon Blood, the first indication you're going to drop AoEs is when the first one shows up suddenly under your feet.

I bet Sorcs have a similar problem with Hurricane/etc.

Amottica

Haarkan wrote: »

Mechanics having different forms of warning that are small to begin with makes finding out what's an issue far more difficult then it has any need to be. Solid post.

Yes, mechanics have different warnings.

IMHO, on normal mode, there should be telegraphs for heavy attacks and such as it is often the case now, but probably not always. There should still be some sort of " visual tell" outside of a colored area on the floor so the player can learn to look and pay attention.

For vet and HM these colored areas warning us of impending danger should not be present and the "tell" would be the only warning. After all, the more challenging modes are intended to require a higher degree of skill level and awareness.

Having a visual tell eliminates issues with color blindness, noticing words flashing on the screen or a sound.

Sallymen

tomofhyrule wrote: »

I bet Sorcs have a similar problem with Hurricane/etc.

Funny enough, no. All Templar's abilities practically surround them in constant light, worsened by living dark or solar barrage. Nightblade's too if they are using the heal cloak as a tank or DPS heal in some cases. Necro's have also with any of the tether effects...

Practically all the classes have effects that cover their body up to prevent debuffs from being applied to them. It's really excessive and distracting, even with low particle effects.

jcaceresw

To the OP and @ZOS consider that disabilities also include not being able to hear anything, so mechanic's warnings should be both visually and auditive.

Sallymen

jcaceresw wrote: »

To the OP and @ZOS consider that disabilities also include not being able to hear anything, so mechanic's warnings should be both visually and auditive.

Yep! Mention that in the post about audio cues should be followed up by a visual just like what White Gold Tower does. If you are infected with the portal you are given a audio cue of a pitch shift but your screen turns black and white. I wish this could be said for Lair of Maarselok where the visual is practically non existence with how faint it is.

mpicklesster

Amottica wrote: »

Haarkan wrote: »

Mechanics having different forms of warning that are small to begin with makes finding out what's an issue far more difficult then it has any need to be. Solid post.

Yes, mechanics have different warnings.

IMHO, on normal mode, there should be telegraphs for heavy attacks and such as it is often the case now, but probably not always. There should still be some sort of " visual tell" outside of a colored area on the floor so the player can learn to look and pay attention.

For vet and HM these colored areas warning us of impending danger should not be present and the "tell" would be the only warning. After all, the more challenging modes are intended to require a higher degree of skill level and awareness.

Having a visual tell eliminates issues with color blindness, noticing words flashing on the screen or a sound.

There are a couple of great mechanic alert add-ons on PC that provide big, center-of-screen cues (with an additional auditory ping) when deadly mechanics happen. (Code's Combat and Hodor, come to mind.)

Nonetheless, we shouldn't have to rely on 3rd-party add-ons to do what ZOS should be doing. Not to mention, these add-ons do nothing to help console players (since they can't use add-ons).

I guess what I'm suggesting is that ZOS add some of these mechanic alert add-ons to the base game. If they want to go the extra mile, they could make them toggleable for the masochists people who enjoy a bowel movement-inducing surprise.

Dragkiris

Better idea - let stop dumbing down the game and vet/vethm content. Normal mode is accessibility mode.

Sallymen

Bumping this because I feel like this post is still relevant, especially with the new PTS changes.

Reverting the DoT durations but not adjusting the damage is just making it worse to those with accessibility issues, not to mention neglecting to adjust Templar to the changes, arguably one of the easier yet hardest hitting classes to learn.

Jazraena

Honestly, the entire Thurvokun HM Fight should get a redesign pass from the POV of imprecise hitboxes. The dragon's hitbox is oversized to the point that you often literally charge backwards or can't interrupt Orryn because you hit the dragon behind you while looking at Orryn, his breath weapon is out of sync, the bone goliath heavy attacks kills you if you roll too early..

It's far from the only fight with such issues, but Thurvokun is such a collection of shoddy hitboxes and timers in one fight that all increase it's difficulty way beyond what it would otherwise be for the casual player.

RoadSodaSlammer

Sallymen wrote: »

I see the argument spewed on the forums and on Twitter about these changes benefit casual or mid-tier players (They do not but this is not the point of this post). The argument is that these changes help those with accessibility issues, those who cannot play the game like the average player. For example, someone with nerve issues in their hands, only have one hand, etc. But nerfing damage and adjusting timers for abilities is not the way, if all of you REALLY want to care about those with any form of accessibility issues start looking at the dungeon and trial mechanics.

My issue is that these dungeons and trials have never been easy to those who do not have full accessibility due to inconsistent mechanics. I have trifecta achievements for all the dungeons in this game except for the recent dungeon pair of Ascending Tide. (Coral Aerie and Shipwright's Regret), and there are plenty of mechanics that are just outright unfair to players who are hard of hearing, colorblind, or do not have full hand-eye coordination.

Examples of inconsistent mechanics:

-Visual reliant / color mechanics: Lair of Maarselok vs White-Gold Tower: In Lair of Maarselok, players can get infected by the Maarselok which can spawn a lurcher on the player and insta killing them, they can cleanse it by synergizing a pad. Before coming up to the final boss you or one of your three other party members can get infected and the only visual cue is your character turning a slight blue... however this effect CAN be covered up quite easily from other set visuals and class abilities. Aka you cannot see it when it infects you most of the time. The only way to see it would be to have an addon or one of your members having a good eye. What White-Gold Tower has something similar, a player gets infected and chosen to see portals, only they can destroy them if they are picked but the visual here is that your screen turns a different hue and audio distorts - which still has it's own problems but is way better than the Lair of Maarselok visual of being cursed.
SOLUTION: Have a warning to the player that THEY are the ones infected or have a more obnoxious effect rather than a slight color change to your player model.

-Fang Lair HM walls. The instant kill radius does not clearly indicate where the hitbox starts and ends. The Ghost walls blend in with Thurvokun to make it difficult to see for someone who is not colorblind, let alone someone who is. This also applies to the Aurorean walls of Depths of Malatar; these walls are also inconsistent as they can clip you even if you do not touch them. Seems as if the effects of these walls are shorter than the actual hit box... I mean it's hard to tell because the hitboxes are not visible at all. This is a problem that is still current as well with the new High Isle release of one of the new World Boss mechanics. The walls still hit the player even if they are well out of it.
SOLUTION: "Add the red aoe hitbox underneath these wall mechanics (Or make the Ghost Wall in Fang Lair a different color / effect than Thurvokun's posion aura). There are some instances where I go through a wall and survive but also seem to be nowhere near it and still get insta killed. Adding a visual will help players see where the wall actually ends and start so they do not die unfairly."

-Audio cues without other visuals: Domihaus Grovel, King Narilmor split to name just a few.
Domihaus' grovel is just a straight-up audio cue that leads into an instant kill. Sure the solution is to put on subtitles but in the heat of the battle of his ads spawning can lead to difficulty focusing on the boss alone. King Narilmor's split projection also has an audio cue of the real boss has his voice coming out of the "real" model.
SOLUTION: For King Narilmor's fight, I do not have a solution since you could burn the projections down, but if DPS is going down the drain, then the health on them should be adjusted. Domihaus's simple solution would be a slight tremor or shake effect to indicate he is about to do his instant kill mechanic.

-Jump mechanics in general, especially on uneven and broken terrain: Maw of Lorkaj (Backroom mechanic), Unhallowed Secret bosses, Frostvault Dwarven Centurion Bubble lasers, Coral Aerie Hard Mode.
This is self-explanatory in why this could cause accessibility issues. Jump mechanics are rare, but they do exist—one of them is going to the first secret boss. I had several random players who are just unable to scale the first secret boss area because they are PHYSICALLY unable to and keep falling off and dying. The Dwarven Centurion bubble is different in the sense that you can hide behind the bubble, I am mentioning it here though is because this is one of the mechanics that ZoS does right as an alternative to those who cannot jump the lasers... I wish the same could be said about Coral Aerie's HM, where jumping the lightning tornado swirls is like playing Mario, and there is no alternative way of avoiding it that does not involve mashing the jump key and mashing other buttons to do damage.
SOLUTIONS: Alternative ways to do these mechanics / navigate the terrain or just rework how to do them.

Notable mentions of broken mechanics that affect those with limited accessibility:
-Moongrave Fane Cubes NOT moving, VERY important for Gargoyle boss where you HAVE to plug in the volcanoes with the cubes.
-Grapple Hook mechanic which is required to progress in Unhallowed albeit fun, can be broken and have people fall to their deaths. - This ALSO applies to in Vatestran.
-Darkshade Cavern II final boss, the boss moves constantly making it difficult for some to keep up to reapply their AoEs (God forbid the PTS changes make it to live and makes this problem worse for mid-tier players.)

Listed the three example to name a few. I might post more examples but I want to leave a quote from a friend who does dungeons with me and what they have to say about the new changes in the PTS currently: "As someone with nerve damage, making me hit 1 button 20+ times (not that DK is going to be viable, lol) is actually worse than keeping up a rotation and I know I'm not the only one who feels that way."

No one is happy about these changes, ESO Team. If you want to make the game accessible, look into your dungeon and trial mechanics. Instead of adjusting player numbers.

Nester, I feel you, but how much of this post is in Jest?

Sparxlost

lmao coldharbour stairs still broken prolly xD

vivisectvib16_ESO

Turning Tide looks cool but it's absolutely terrible for anyone with any kind of visual issue. The purple glow covers up red interruption lines, for example, making them near impossible to see.

radiostar

I'm sure they never meant accessibility in the sense some of us thought. It was just a buzzword for being available, not necessarily reachable.

etchedpixels

Amottica wrote: »

Haarkan wrote: »

Mechanics having different forms of warning that are small to begin with makes finding out what's an issue far more difficult then it has any need to be. Solid post.

Yes, mechanics have different warnings.

IMHO, on normal mode, there should be telegraphs for heavy attacks and such as it is often the case now, but probably not always. There should still be some sort of " visual tell" outside of a colored area on the floor so the player can learn to look and pay attention.

You need audio and textual tells as well. Add-ons fix some of that on PC but not console.

etchedpixels

Dragkiris wrote: »

Better idea - let stop dumbing down the game and vet/vethm content. Normal mode is accessibility mode.

That's a common misconception. Accessibility is not about easy mode.

Having screen reader hooks for quest choices is not easy mode
Having subtitles is not easy mode (and the game has them)
Having an optional sound cue for telegraphs is not easy mode
Having colour contrast modes is not easy mode

and so it goes on..

It's not about making it "easy", it's about making the interface adaptable to the user. In some ways ESO is actually really good at it on PC because you can adjust layouts and sizes a lot and rebind things. In other areas like screenreaders for dyslexia it's absolutely awful.

There are a small number of things where it becomes hard in an MMO - some of the physical adaptions versus balance and exploiting them in an MMO are very different to a solo game. On the other hand loads of people use macros for weaving already so some of it is nonsense.

starkerealm

etchedpixels wrote: »

On the other hand loads of people use macros for weaving already so some of it is nonsense.

Citation needed.

Though, yeah, it's against the rules, but it really shouldn't be in this specific case. Which goes back to something I've been saying for weeks at this point: If the true goal of this patch was to increase accessibility, the answer would be to increase the input buffer, and allow it to store one light/heavy attack, and one ability activation, with the input queue animation canceling intelligently.

Since they're not doing that, and given this seems to be Gil's baby, and Gil is not an idiot, then I have to assume that Hanlon's Razor doesn't apply, and that in spite of what we were told, this was never about accessibility, and was always about punishing the players that were able to push six digit parses, without regard for who'd get hit downstream of those nerfs.

Naftal

I don't think hard modes need to be any more accessible. There's already two easier difficulties to choose from.

Otherwise we'll end up with even hard modes being way too easy for people without problems.