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Oakensoul + Major Slayer & Major Aegis

merpins
merpins
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The title says what I'm asking for. The nerfs to the Oakensoul ring are to balance it for PVP. The ring was in a good place for PVE before the nerf, but the nerfs are pretty excessive for PVE. Think of it like this; in PVE, the ring was for 3 kinds of people.

1. the main group it was made for, disabled players that needed a crutch to lean on. People that can't do harder content in-game due to motor function disabilities, arthritis, or other problems preventing them from performing.

2. the secondary group it was made for, newer players and/or players that just don't like the bar swap mechanic. This is the group of people that needed a stepping stone, a temporary item that can improve their DPS, help them learn rotations in an easier, more digestible format. Without the second bar, you can further focus on learning light attack weaving, your rotation, and getting gear to further improve your DPS. It's a stopgap item that is temporary, and will help this group of players get to a point where they eventually won't need it anymore.

3. the last group it was made for, everyone else. Veteran and late mid-game players that want a fun item that can be used to create easier rotations for less difficult content. It's not used for clearing end-game content for the titles or score-pushing, and veteran players that only want to do that don't even touch this ring, even on live. It lets you be a bit more creative for lower DPM builds for when you want to just do a casual daily dungeon, go around in the world doing PVE, doing a normal trial or an easier veteran dungeon like fungal grotto.

For group 1, even after the nerf, they're really stuck with this item. It still helps them clear easier content (easier for the rest of us), but no longer provides them the support they needed to clear end-game content. For everyone else, you'd might as well do a one-bar build with the Sea-Serpent's Coil now.

The Math (simplified)
The damage lost from the changes to this ring is 25%. I don't mean 25% of the damage the ring provides, I mean 25% of your overall damage potential. It's turning builds that were doing 80k dps into 50k dps, and builds that were doing 50k dps into 35k dps. It also lowers your survivability by 5%. See, by removing 10% crit damage, 5% overall damage, ~200 magic and spell attack, and reducing your ultimate regeneration by 2 every 1.5 seconds, the damage lost is approximately 25%. I've tested this hypothesis on multiple characters, and every time, comparing a normal 2-bar build without changing anything but this ring to another mythic, to the new damage with this ring, to take into account the DPS lost in comparison to live on a 2-bar build, by calculating the % damage lost for all 4, those being the two builds on live and the two on the PTS, then subtracting the results, across the board the loss from the ring alone was between 23% and 27%, averaging 25%. This makes the ring pretty useless for everyone, including the main group it's designed for. It helps them a small amount, but even then, the sea serpent's coil does more DPS on a one bar build than the Oakensoul Ring now in most situations.

Keep in mind, the damage players that aren't in group 1 were doing, at best (this being group 3 being the best of the best that used the ring), was around 20% lower than the top-end DPS in the game on live. The majority that used the ring were in group 2, and they only dealt between 40k and 80k dps at best, which is around 30-60% lower than the top end. This ring did NOT need a nerf in PVE. It needed to be balanced properly with PVP in mind; balancing the two game modes separately.

Solutions.
Let's say ZoS balanced the two game modes separately for this ring alone. They could make the changes they already made, but also leave it the way it was using Battle Spirit. Just make it so those skills become their Minor variants in PVP, and stay Major in PVE. But ZoS does not like using Battle Spirit often, and very seldomly addresses the players when it comes to balancing the game modes separately. They fervently refuse to do this, so I have a solution that does the same thing, while keeping to the idea of the ring and balancing the game modes separately.

Add Major Slayer, Minor Slayer, and Minor Aegis to the ring. This would simultaneously give most of the power lost from the nerf back to the ring in PVE, while leaving the PVP side intact without any extra power creep. This would put the ring right back where it was in the content it needs it for, and not harm PVP either. This doesn't help the ring against world bosses, so solo builds for non dungeon PVE would not get a ton of benefit from it. But it's for helping players do harder content. Overland content is already easy, so the ring doesn't need to provide a ton of help there, honestly.
You might say that Slayer and Aegis are for end-game sets only, and should only be obtainable through trials. However 1. Minor Aegis was added to a non-trial set fairly recently, making that point moot for Aegis and making it fair game as per that argument, and 2. I don't see the point in limiting it like that. It doesn't effect player's wants to get good end game trial gear, since for the majority of players, it's only a stopgap set. Temporary. They'll move away from it as they get better at the game and get those sets. And it doesn't effect the end game at all. No one with the Oakensoul Ring does more damage than a top-end player.
Edited by merpins on July 31, 2022 11:16PM
  • FantasticFreddie
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    Major and minor slayer! This is actually a really good idea
  • merpins
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    Major and minor slayer! This is actually a really good idea

    Both would fix the problem completely, as even with just Major Slayer, it's still about a 5% power loss from the ring. Adding Minor as well would make it break even with the nerfs. However I doubt ZoS would do it, as you can only get Minor Slayer from trial gear. I'm sure that would be their reasoning. Major Slayer is probably enough here to make the ring viable to the people that need it, and though I'd like to see them also add Minor Slayer, it probably won't happen.
  • Toxic_Hemlock
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    Just separate the 2 game modes already!

    I was actually having fun killing the WB's in normal modes without dying all the time. If this change was needed in PVP, THEN DO IT THERE. leave my PvE ALONE!

    If this goes through I'll just go back to my wild hunt. I don't change bars anyways, but at least I can run faster again Grrrrrrrrrr!
  • merpins
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    Just separate the 2 game modes already!

    I was actually having fun killing the WB's in normal modes without dying all the time. If this change was needed in PVP, THEN DO IT THERE. leave my PvE ALONE!

    If this goes through I'll just go back to my wild hunt. I don't change bars anyways, but at least I can run faster again Grrrrrrrrrr!

    Oh no I agree with you. They have the means but refuse to use it (battle spirit). Separating PVP and PVE is something I've been calling for since 2016, 2022 and they still refuse to even acknowledge the problem.
    I'm just suggesting something that might actually get implemented with the fact that ZoS won't take separating PVP and PVE into consideration. Major Slayer is probably the only hope for the ring to survive tbh.
  • ccfeeling
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    Nerf this ring, new ring comes next chapter :)
  • Toxic_Hemlock
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    Major Slayer: Increases damage dealt in Dungeons and Trials by 10%.

    Although this may increase all the damage done in trials and dungeons, something I rarely do, it doesn't give me back 5% of my mitigation against WB nor does it restore my 200 damage I lose in overland.

    I guess what I am trying to say is that balancing is tough, but if the initial intention was to give players like myself a hand up it is failing in this regard, and even adding a new buff won't help me much at all.
  • merpins
    merpins
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    Major Slayer: Increases damage dealt in Dungeons and Trials by 10%.

    Although this may increase all the damage done in trials and dungeons, something I rarely do, it doesn't give me back 5% of my mitigation against WB nor does it restore my 200 damage I lose in overland.

    I guess what I am trying to say is that balancing is tough, but if the initial intention was to give players like myself a hand up it is failing in this regard, and even adding a new buff won't help me much at all.

    To be fair, any overland content is easier than any vet dungeon. Major Slayer helps the ring a ton, and makes it viable for letting people with disabilities do end-game content. The ring as-is is still a super powerful overland gear piece, it's just not as powerful as many other options like monster helms or even Sea Serpent's Coil. But the reason it's so strong is, since those other options have to proc, most mobs you attack in overland content are dead before they proc, so Oakensoul is still good there since it just gives stats and buffs passively without needing some kind of proc.
    Edited by merpins on July 12, 2022 12:27AM
  • merpins
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    ccfeeling wrote: »
    Nerf this ring, new ring comes next chapter :)

    Ikr, definitely feels like a cash grab type thing they did. The classic "Look at this OP thing, we won't nerf it next patch..." Except they did. Not that it was OP, it was just a bit overtuned in PVP. Though to be fair, they basically nerfed everything in this PTS.
  • Lalothen
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    Oddly enough I was thinking about this the other day.

    It would make a lot of sense to give it both Minor & Major Slayer buffs. People have been asking for a non 5-piece source of Minor Slayer at the very least for a long time now, and giving Oakensoul both helps players strictly in PvE where they're likely to need it more: group content & solo arenas.
  • Remathilis
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    ZoS needs to sell trial gear which has Slayer and Aegis as 3rd piece standard. They aren't putting it on non trial gear.
  • Wing
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    i agree.

    one of the harder aspects of this game for people targeted by okensoul is vet dungeons and trials, obviously.

    adding slayer or aegis in a fashion would go a long way to shifting the power of the item to an area its desperately needed.
    ESO player since beta.
    previously full time subscriber, beta-2024, now off and on, game got too disappointing.
    PC NA
    ( ^_^ )

    You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods -Xenogears
    DK one trick
  • NordSwordnBoard
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    Or Slayer and Aegis, please at least try them out next test patch. The way I see overland, if you struggle there at all you will feel even better buffs when you do participate in instanced content. I fail to see any arguments that a PvE build will be ruined by these buffs instead of major heroism. I also have no problem with them making slayer work in overland, what difference would that really make anyway?

    Fear is the Mindkiller
  • FantasticFreddie
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    Major/minor slayer and aegis would actually be really really good for the people this ring is SUPPOSED be helping-- those with mobility issues that hinder them in PVE content
  • DairyCat
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    You'd might as well do a one-bar build with the Sea-Serpent's Coil now.
    Not even close.

    100% Uptime > 10 seconds
    Major Brutality, Sorcery, Prophecy, Savagery, Resolve and Minor Courage, Berserk, Force, Protection, Heroism, Mending, Fortitude, Intellect and Endurance > Just Major Berserk and Courage.
  • Stx
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    Agreed.

    These changes pretty much kill this ring in pve. Most of the minor buffs are very easy to get already, and the damage the ring now gives isn't close to worth losing a second bar. Adding major and minor slayer to it would make the most sense to keep it balanced in pvp. Throw aegis on there too.
  • merpins
    merpins
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    DairyCat wrote: »
    You'd might as well do a one-bar build with the Sea-Serpent's Coil now.
    Not even close.

    100% Uptime > 10 seconds
    Major Brutality, Sorcery, Prophecy, Savagery, Resolve and Minor Courage, Berserk, Force, Protection, Heroism, Mending, Fortitude, Intellect and Endurance > Just Major Berserk and Courage.

    There is no cooldown on Sea Serpent's Coil. As long as you take damage, the uptime is 100%.
  • SkadiMZ
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    I was a big proponent of nerfs to oakensoul for pvp purposes. I don't want PVE to suffer because ZOS won't balance the two separately. Adding major slayer and aegis is a very good idea and I think, like someone said above, it gives back most of the bonuses (power) where you would need it most.

    I don't even care if they add the minor versions, too. Those buffs are PVE specific and that seems like such an obvious thing for them to have done from the start.
  • YandereGirlfriend
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    I think that this Mythic is now in a good spot for PvP but if you really wanted to eliminate it from PvP consideration then adding Major/Minor Slayer + Major/Minor Aegis and removing Major/Minor Berserk and Major/Minor Protection (and the proposed Minor Mending?) would be the way to do it.

    That would definitively establish the item as a PvE set and basically abolish its use-case in PvP (which would also mean exempting it from future adjustments based upon its usage in PvP - which is, I think, what most posters in this thread desire).
    Edited by YandereGirlfriend on July 12, 2022 11:02PM
  • Mr_Stach
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    DairyCat wrote: »
    You'd might as well do a one-bar build with the Sea-Serpent's Coil now.
    Not even close.

    100% Uptime > 10 seconds
    Major Brutality, Sorcery, Prophecy, Savagery, Resolve and Minor Courage, Berserk, Force, Protection, Heroism, Mending, Fortitude, Intellect and Endurance > Just Major Berserk and Courage.

    There is no cooldown on Sea Serpent's Coil. As long as you take damage, the uptime is 100%.

    Which in PvP, that's 100% of the time
    Altoholic, Frost Warden Sympathizer and Main

    Glacial Guardian - Main - Frost Warden Zealot
    The Frost Man Cometh - PC Frost Backup
  • merpins
    merpins
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    I think that this Mythic is now in a good spot for PvP but if you really wanted to eliminate it from PvP consideration then adding Major/Minor Slayer + Major/Minor Aegis and removing Major/Minor Berserk and Major/Minor Protection (and the proposed Minor Mending?) would be the way to do it.

    That would definitively establish the item as a PvE set and basically abolish its use-case in PvP (which would also mean exempting it from future adjustments based upon its usage in PvP - which is, I think, what most posters in this thread desire).

    Removing Minor Berserk would be fine, but only if they added both Major and Minor Slayer. If they just added Major Slayer, then removing Minor Berserk shouldn't happen due to the other nerfs to the ring. But otherwise I totally agree.
  • MidniteOwl1913
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    It's easy to blame PVP for it, and with all the complaining from that corner it may be fair, but to have this nerf ready to go into the very next patch it had to be something ZOS was expecting. Think about it. Nerfing was always part of the plan and PVP just the excuse.

    It has made a big improvement in my enjoyment of the game. I'm one of the differently-abled that it was aimed at. From my point of view it would have been better to not make it all than to make it let me see what I was missing and then take it away.



    PS5/NA
  • mielyn
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    Slayer and Aegis have long been attainable ONLY by doing trials. I do not advise this “freebie” to be added to this ring. Only way I would support this is if one of the leads came from a trial boss. But it’s too late to change that now.

    Just add Major Heroism back into the ring and it’s still very decent. Wear a 5 piece that gives you your Aegis/Slayer and you’ll be happy. Most trial sets are pretty standard for high tier PvE anyway.
  • merpins
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    It's easy to blame PVP for it, and with all the complaining from that corner it may be fair, but to have this nerf ready to go into the very next patch it had to be something ZOS was expecting. Think about it. Nerfing was always part of the plan and PVP just the excuse.

    It has made a big improvement in my enjoyment of the game. I'm one of the differently-abled that it was aimed at. From my point of view it would have been better to not make it all than to make it let me see what I was missing and then take it away.



    Agreed. Giving something only to take it away, especially in the context of content used to sell a chapter, isn't great. Sure, PVP was probably an excuse. They knew that the ring would be too strong in PVP, and therefore also knew what the changes would be afterwards. But again it's a balancing issue, where they still need to balance pve and pvp separately, yet refuse to do so (or even acknowledge it).

    the ring was in a good spot in PVE. The top of the top end that used the ring for fun were hitting 95-100k dps, well under the top end by 20-30k dps. But most players were hitting 50-80k dps with the ring (for experience players). By no means is this overtuned. It's fine. It doesn't break anything in PVE, and taking away 20% of that power means if you were doing 80k, you're now doing 64k, and less with the rest of the nerfs. It's a giant nerf on top of other giant nerfs in PVE, and really hurts the players the ring was meant to help.

    So with that said, so long as ZoS refuses to balance the game modes separately, they should add Major Slayer and possibly Major Aegis to the ring. It compensates for what was lost while at the same time not causing harm to PVP.
  • merpins
    merpins
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    mielyn wrote: »
    Slayer and Aegis have long been attainable ONLY by doing trials. I do not advise this “freebie” to be added to this ring. Only way I would support this is if one of the leads came from a trial boss. But it’s too late to change that now.

    Just add Major Heroism back into the ring and it’s still very decent. Wear a 5 piece that gives you your Aegis/Slayer and you’ll be happy. Most trial sets are pretty standard for high tier PvE anyway.

    Sure, they're only in trial sets. But the people that need this ring the most generally can't do trials without the live version of the ring. The nerfs to the ring reduce the damage of someone using it by a whopping 20% (no exaggeration). This drop might not seem like much, but it puts an already niche ring that can barely edge out at 100k dps at most (before the nerfs in the PTS), to 80k. And that's if you're a top end player using the ring. The vast majority, including those that need it, only hit 50-80k dps. Average of I'd wager around 65k dps. A 20% DPS loss at 65k puts them out of where they need to be to even join trial groups generally. Then there are those that have severe arthritis or motor function disabilities that were barely edging out 30k dps with the ring.

    Major Slayer and Major Aegis only put the ring to where it was before without effecting PVP. Your argument would be reasonable if it weren't for the fact that the best you could do with the ring before the nerf was 20% under top end, which means even with those buffs, top end players still won't touch it, and the sets that do give those buffs will still be better than this ring for end game content. All it does it make end game content accessible to players that couldn't do it before due to disability or other factors, and they still need to work hard like any other player to get to the point where they can do it with the ring.
  • Treeshka
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    I think changes can be reverted and Oakensoul Ring can be reworked in a way where it does not work while Battle Spirit is active.
  • merpins
    merpins
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    Treeshka wrote: »
    I think changes can be reverted and Oakensoul Ring can be reworked in a way where it does not work while Battle Spirit is active.

    I agree. But I've stated it above; It's been nearly 9 years now. ZoS very rarely addressed the idea of balancing PVE and PVE separately, and when they did, they specified that they have no intention on doing so. This was back in 2016 or 2017. Things could have changed since then, but correct me if I'm wrong, we've had radio silence on this issue since then. As far as I'm concerned, based on what they've said in the past, they will not balance the two game modes separately. Even though so many people desperately want them to. So my suggestion is there solely because it fixes the Oakensoul issue without affecting PVP negatively, and without balancing the game modes separately.
  • Vahndamme
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    This idea is fantastic imo. Giving it a slayer buff , esp major slayer will still give it the spark in PvE but not overtune it to a point where people will take Oakensoul over 2bars (in higher groups) , in lower optimized groups they might but that's a good thing no? Bringing more people into the trial scenery is what we ultimately want.

    I must admit that this is imo the best course of action to take with this mythic. Atm it misses it's spark.

    As mentioned above the ring could also be reworked in a way that Battle Spirit prevents it from working, e.g. being entirely useless in PvP. Though not sure if that's a good course.

    EDIT: It launched in the state it was and that was after a slew of changes on PTS for High Isle. I honestly did not expect them to change this ring so fast. I mean, you buy an expansion and think that you have some good time with this ring for awhile. Few weeks later, boom it's gone. Not to mention the entirety of U35.. It's basically negating everything the xpac brought (except the map).
    Edited by Vahndamme on July 13, 2022 6:05PM
  • Holycannoli
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    mielyn wrote: »
    Slayer and Aegis have long been attainable ONLY by doing trials. I do not advise this “freebie” to be added to this ring. Only way I would support this is if one of the leads came from a trial boss. But it’s too late to change that now.

    Just add Major Heroism back into the ring and it’s still very decent. Wear a 5 piece that gives you your Aegis/Slayer and you’ll be happy. Most trial sets are pretty standard for high tier PvE anyway.

    That's the thing though, it wasn't nerfed because of PvP. Look at the rest of nerfs in the patch notes and you can see they want damage in general nerfed, unless somehow you are a nightblade that doesn't use any DoTs.
  • xDeusEJRx
    xDeusEJRx
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    mielyn wrote: »
    Slayer and Aegis have long been attainable ONLY by doing trials. I do not advise this “freebie” to be added to this ring. Only way I would support this is if one of the leads came from a trial boss. But it’s too late to change that now.

    Just add Major Heroism back into the ring and it’s still very decent. Wear a 5 piece that gives you your Aegis/Slayer and you’ll be happy. Most trial sets are pretty standard for high tier PvE anyway.

    Not true, if you saw the ironblood changes. It has aegis which is not in a trial. it's in falkreath hold dungeon. Which means ZOS is not averse to putting trial buffs in dungeon sets
    Solo PvP'er PS5 NA player

    90% of my body is made of Magblade
  • merpins
    merpins
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    mielyn wrote: »
    Slayer and Aegis have long been attainable ONLY by doing trials. I do not advise this “freebie” to be added to this ring. Only way I would support this is if one of the leads came from a trial boss. But it’s too late to change that now.

    Just add Major Heroism back into the ring and it’s still very decent. Wear a 5 piece that gives you your Aegis/Slayer and you’ll be happy. Most trial sets are pretty standard for high tier PvE anyway.

    That's the thing though, it wasn't nerfed because of PvP. Look at the rest of nerfs in the patch notes and you can see they want damage in general nerfed, unless somehow you are a nightblade that doesn't use any DoTs.

    I mean sure, they want to damage nerfed. But they already nerfed all the damage. A ring with Major Slayer will put it back where it was in comparison to the new damage average. The new high end seems to be 100-110k dps at the moment, so the highest you'd be able to get with the ring with a slayer buff (which the trial dummy shows what it would be by the way) would be around 90k dps, and that's it you're a high end player that can hit the highest dps in the game, and those players don't use the ring. The average player would be getting 50-70k dps. Tested it on the trial dummy, it's perfectly reasonable.
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