All the Insta kill mechanics are the problem with eso, not Light attack weaving.

Veinblood1965 · July 2022

francesinhalover wrote: »

I don't understand killing peoples dps by 10-15% + the previous cp nerfs, because Pro endgame players pull out insane dps, Instead of actually buffing the dungeon/trials hp.
It just doesn't feel good, having to work HARD to reach our max potential just so we get nerfed and nerfed.
All this is doing is making those casuals have a harder, much much harder time reaching those dps numbers.
And the ones that did reach 100k will get their damage nerfed also.

The issue is Casuals that aren't even reaching those numbers, can't even Join trials because if you don't do 100k you are ignored. And doing those 100k just keeps getting harder.
And even if they did reach those asked dps numbers.
There's so many team wipe mechanics they can't even join the trial because they have to spend hours on youtube seeing guides and waiting days to weeks for a trial run their guild might potentially do.This if They aren't asked for achievements to join the run.

This just kills all the willingness players have in doing endgame content.
I for example gave up on vmol. Waiting 1 week constantly for my guild run and Spending Hours there on those 2 bosses for nothing, This ignoring all the lagg.

Do you think a casual just because his dps can be near a pros in the future they can survive all this insta kill stuff? Who has the time to spend hours searching for guides and constantly repeating runs to have a no death achievement for the reward on one of the many many dungeons and trials? Because from what i see, most of eso's player base aren't those kids with free time that can spend days on fortnite

That's how i see it, 130k dps seems like a lot for a trial run, the issue is when the trial run has to be repeated 10-20x those 130k help a lot decrease the time wasted retrying.

This ignoring all the trials and dungeons where close range players have to create long range builds because again, insta kill mechanics.

I've stayed away from Trials for this very reason, the biggest part is spending hours getting everyone together. It's not worth the time.

Agenericname · July 2022

francesinhalover wrote: »

Riptide wrote: »

- There's a difference btw vma last boss and the curse that is vetshran hollows last boss. Only reason many even did that one is because they used teleport skills.

*chuckle, this sounds like a lot of strange disdain some folks affect for meta, which has been turned into a swear word. It, as I am sure you know, means “most effective tactic available”, which seems to really bring out some kind of irrational anger in people. This is one of those - multiple classes have the ability to teleport. Want to do vet vateshran in hard mode? Awesome, run one of the classes without it.

Want to get it done and farm the rascal for what you need and be done with it? Great, use one of those classes that do. Leveling one if you don’t have it takes a trivial amount of time, particularly with all the scrolls they throw at us - and your CP is account wide. It isn’t some kind of shakespearian tragedy, you know? And afterword you have a strong alt, win win.

Another example is cloudrest, if you are stam you just get kicked or uninvited to raids

Come on now. And even if that were true, you know, you could keep a pocket mag toon for running cloudrest - the earth’s crust won’t crack an open an abyss.

I mean, folks who stubbornly play one way and only one way and obstinately refuse to adjust to the situation saying that mechanics are overbearing are making a choice. And more power to them, great.

But to make the game anemic for all the folks who find no problem with being light on their feet and approaching each challenge on its terms to cater to that narrow sort of approach, do you at all see why that is unreasonable? If the challenges exist, you have the option to tackle them in off meta, tackle them in meta, or forgo them.

If the challenges don’t exist we only have the option to leave.

Do you really think that is comparable?

Oh so what you are saying is, i should take , around 10-20 hours of my life, to lvl up a new alt that is magicka, learn how to play magicka, and if there's no tp skill like the teleport from sorcerer, create another mag char, waste 10-20 hours lvling it up and than learn it to do the content, all of this during a eso plus free trial, because the game wont let me play with a close ranged class.
alright awesome.

No, you do not need a ranged class to do any of that content. 1/3 of mag classes also play in melee range btw.

I play melee almost exclusively, whether that be mag, stam, or tank. Although with the hybridization the lines have blurred some. It comes with its own challenges, but its also not impossible, by any stretch of the imganination.

What makes FL HM difficult is the walls after reanimation. Range players arent immune to tunnel vision either. To survive it as melee you need your head on a swivel. If that isnt something that you enjoy, play ranged. If theres anything excessively punishing about it, its the rez conditions.

I have done vSCP tri on both and ranged is a good bit easier due to the synergies on the ground. Still, I enjoy melee more. Its very much puggable.

Dragon Bones DLC was one that emphasized mobility more than others, but it doesnt keep melee from completing it. In fact, it makes it fun.

Its entirely possible to beat vVH without a teleport of any type and on melee. I didn't think that I would have liked it first, but it turned out to be one of my favorite pieces of content. I went in blind. Each stage was its own challenge and it was genuinely fun.

Theres nothing unplayable about melee. Some groups will turn you down, sure. If you only play a tank or only play a healer, and they are full, guess what? Find a group that will work with you.

BloodMagicLord · July 2022

francesinhalover wrote: »

BloodMagicLord wrote: »

"can't even Join trials because if you don't do 100k you are ignored."
This is just complete misinformation. You won't get into trifecta groups and SOME hardmode groups if you don't have that DPS. But there are guilds that do intro runs in veteran trials who have a DPS req of 40k or even lower - I know this because I help to run one of them!

Hasn't been my experience on europe so far, from around 15 joined guilds.
So if yours is eu i would love a invite.

The Guild is called Serenity, and we also have Serenity Academy. You can find us on the guild finder. It's best if you apply via that but if you cant find it then you can send me a mail in-game and I will invite you next time I am logged in.

Ascarl · July 2022

LA weaving is just annoying as it is physical stress to to fingers.
Every nerf to LA is a delight.

FantasticFreddie · July 2022

Ascarl wrote: »

LA weaving is just annoying as it is physical stress to to fingers.
Every nerf to LA is a delight.

I truly do not understand this mentality. I really don't. It doesn't help you at all. People are still going to need to light attack weave, and they will still expect it to be done at upper level raiding. Nerfing light attacks does not help you, it only makes content harder. I cannot figure out why people think otherwise.

xaraan · July 2022

I don't think all insta-death mechanics are bad, but a lot of them are. There are definitely certain circumstances where having a decent team dps check or paying for ignoring mechanics is necessary. In fact, some mechanics in normal dungeons should be more punishing to teach people the actual mechanics and help them learn what to do in the veteran version. Right now you learn absolutely nothing doing normal. But other times the insta-deaths can seem too RNG or too punishing. I think just finding that balance has been something zos has failed at.

They've also locked into DPS being a way to flat out avoid certain mechanics, which just teaches the guys at the top to keep pushing that dps and excluding anyone that isn't the top dps they can get ahold of, to ignore other types of support like being tanky or healy and focus purely on buffing damage, etc. Not to say buffs shouldn't be a thing, but instead of certain phases of a boss being a dps check, almost every HMvet fight becomes that so you can skip as many mechanics and phases as possible. (I remember back when running vMoL-HM that I was helping another team with their run and they had other end game players helping them that were higher tier than myself and they were scared of the fact that they might have to do lunar phase b/c they'd never done it). I ran with a guy that loved to farm Moon Hunter Keep b/c it was quick and he wouldn't take anyone on the team that couldn't just burn the second to last boss before they did phases - more exclusion of even players that would normally be more than good enough to do the content.

I've mentioned before an easy way to fix a lot of these issues is to not have adds magically vanish as soon as the boss dies. Maybe in certain circumstances (like for summons/ghosts/etc) but if all the wolves in that Moon Hunter Keep run didn't vanish when boss died, it would suddenly make pushing the boss and getting a couple of those mega wolves out a bigger deal since they don't vanish. Or the strat to hold one (eventually three) of the mini-bosses aside at end of Sunspire in HM and just burn boss and ignore them would have to be changed to actually deal with the mobs if they didn't vanish with boss and trial kept going on (heck, maybe they even go beserk if their boss died and you now have to deal with them enraged).

So I think there are definitely times when you can have smart DPS checks as a team to push through a designed phase b/c that's the goal. The DPS check doesn't have to be crazy and often isn't when it's designed just for that. The problem has become that a DPS check is the goal for almost every mechanic and that's where the demand for crazy dps performers comes from. It's not for the built in DPS checks (maybe to a point like saying, we need 60-70K or something, but the ones where everyone is looking for the top DPS like you see in build vids), the reason is that if you get that crazy high DPS you can just skip non DPS check mechanics as well. Burn vMoL boss by the first few pads and skip every other mechanic for every pad or skip even doing backroom (or lunar phase if back when dps was lower and that was more possible) for example. And you get teams that don't want to deal with that b/c they know how easy it can be, so why take players that can't do that and make it harder on themselves. When really, skipping non-DPS check mechanics shouldn't be an option IMO.

I also think their testing needs help. Vet trial HMs are tested by just a few end game teams usually on PTS, the same teams that make a ton of gold selling carries. They don't care what the plateau for inclusion in completion is, the worse it is, the better for them. Whether its just bragging rights or millions of gold to make from carries, the harder it is the better. ZoS needs to be able to have their own playtesters able to play that that level and know what the plateau they intend to create is and also be able to have the goal of creating a fun challenge over a tedious and annoying one. You can't do that when you take you vet design and just start cranking up HP and damage and hoping to drag fights out longer and wait for feedback from players. Player testing on PTS should be looking for bugs, not so much helping to design the content like that IMO.

francesinhalover · July 2022

BloodMagicLord wrote: »

francesinhalover wrote: »

BloodMagicLord wrote: »

"can't even Join trials because if you don't do 100k you are ignored."
This is just complete misinformation. You won't get into trifecta groups and SOME hardmode groups if you don't have that DPS. But there are guilds that do intro runs in veteran trials who have a DPS req of 40k or even lower - I know this because I help to run one of them!

Hasn't been my experience on europe so far, from around 15 joined guilds.
So if yours is eu i would love a invite.

The Guild is called Serenity, and we also have Serenity Academy. You can find us on the guild finder. It's best if you apply via that but if you cant find it then you can send me a mail in-game and I will invite you next time I am logged in.

I was part of that guild , also on discord. Didn't have a good experience with discord and can safely say i never did any trials there. or found trials there to do.

morrowjen · July 2022

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

Ascarl wrote: »

LA weaving is just annoying as it is physical stress to to fingers.
Every nerf to LA is a delight.

I truly do not understand this mentality. I really don't. It doesn't help you at all. People are still going to need to light attack weave, and they will still expect it to be done at upper level raiding. Nerfing light attacks does not help you, it only makes content harder. I cannot figure out why people think otherwise.

It's misplaced schadenfreude. Changes like this never really effect the 1 percent. Those players are simply that good and they will find a way around it and might even come out doing more than they did before (and you know what - people need to stop fooling themselves into believing that those guys and gals don't put in the work to get there because they do). But who stuff like this harms are those who are mere mortals. Folks who spend hours practicing rotations, tweaking builds, transmuting gear and otherwise doing all they can do to squeeze out more dps to help their teammates clear content.

A lot of your blue collar trial runners are suddenly going to get cut out of a lot of runs or will be limited to older trials. A drop from 90k to 70k isn't that big of a deal in the sense that the run can still succeed but dropping someone who parses 70k down to 55k and doing it across the board makes certain content impossible because a good half of those who parse that will never get close to that in content.

And while I know people can say well it just takes longer and/or learn the mechanics - the reality is no one wants to relive spending 24hrs in vMOL while everyone learns the mechanics.

francesinhalover · July 2022

Ascarl wrote: »

LA weaving is just annoying as it is physical stress to to fingers.
Every nerf to LA is a delight.

it's not all you have to do is one light attack when skills are ending, it's pretty easy, no need to go atatatatatata on the mouse button.

BloodMagicLord · July 2022

francesinhalover wrote: »

BloodMagicLord wrote: »

francesinhalover wrote: »

BloodMagicLord wrote: »

"can't even Join trials because if you don't do 100k you are ignored."
This is just complete misinformation. You won't get into trifecta groups and SOME hardmode groups if you don't have that DPS. But there are guilds that do intro runs in veteran trials who have a DPS req of 40k or even lower - I know this because I help to run one of them!

Hasn't been my experience on europe so far, from around 15 joined guilds.
So if yours is eu i would love a invite.

The Guild is called Serenity, and we also have Serenity Academy. You can find us on the guild finder. It's best if you apply via that but if you cant find it then you can send me a mail in-game and I will invite you next time I am logged in.

I was part of that guild , also on discord. Didn't have a good experience with discord and can safely say i never did any trials there. or found trials there to do.

When was this? We have trials available several times a week at various levels. Players simply need to apply for a rank first.

H3rBie · July 2022

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

francesinhalover wrote: »

I don't understand killing peoples dps by 10-15% + the previous cp nerfs, because Pro endgame players pull out insane dps, Instead of actually buffing the dungeon/trials hp.
It just doesn't feel good, having to work HARD to reach our max potential just so we get nerfed and nerfed.
All this is doing is making those casuals have a harder, much much harder time reaching those dps numbers.

The issue is Casuals that aren't even reaching those numbers, can't even Join trials because if you don't do 100k you are ignored. And doing those 100k just keeps getting harder.
And even if they did reach those asked dps numbers.
There's so many team wipe mechanics they can't even join the trial because they have to spend hours on youtube seeing guides and waiting days to weeks for a trial run their guild might potentially do.This if They aren't asked for achievements to join the run.

This just kills all the willingness players have in doing endgame content.
I for example gave up on vmol. Waiting 1 week constantly for my guild run and Spending Hours there on those 2 bosses for nothing, This ignoring all the lagg.

Do you think a casual just because his dps can be near a pros in the future they can survive all this insta kill stuff? Who has the time to spend hours searching for guides and constantly repeating runs to have a no death achievement for the reward on one of the many many dungeons and trials? Because from what i see, most of eso's player base aren't those kids with free time that can spend days on fortnite

That's how i see it, 130k dps seems like a lot for a trial run, the issue is when the trial run has to be repeated 10-20x those 130k help a lot decrease the time wasted retrying.

This ignoring all the trials and dungeons where close range players have to create long range builds because again, insta kill mechanics.

Any guild that asks for minimum 100k DPS is not a guild worth joining. I remember the day when 30k was considered good and that was on Vet MoL. If a guild asks for minimum 40k, that’s ok. But 100k minimum is just ridiculous, I have no issues reaching that number but I won’t join a guild that has those restrictions.

it was 40-50k on a 3 or 6m dummy selfbuffed, so without any buffs that a raid dummy provides, so you can hardly compare that.

francesinhalover · July 2022

BloodMagicLord wrote: »

francesinhalover wrote: »

BloodMagicLord wrote: »

francesinhalover wrote: »

BloodMagicLord wrote: »

"can't even Join trials because if you don't do 100k you are ignored."
This is just complete misinformation. You won't get into trifecta groups and SOME hardmode groups if you don't have that DPS. But there are guilds that do intro runs in veteran trials who have a DPS req of 40k or even lower - I know this because I help to run one of them!

Hasn't been my experience on europe so far, from around 15 joined guilds.
So if yours is eu i would love a invite.

The Guild is called Serenity, and we also have Serenity Academy. You can find us on the guild finder. It's best if you apply via that but if you cant find it then you can send me a mail in-game and I will invite you next time I am logged in.

I was part of that guild , also on discord. Didn't have a good experience with discord and can safely say i never did any trials there. or found trials there to do.

When was this? We have trials available several times a week at various levels. Players simply need to apply for a rank first.

I did all that, so it probably means i was just ignored , it's fine