All the Insta kill mechanics are the problem with eso, not Light attack weaving.

francesinhalover

I don't understand killing peoples dps by 10-15% + the previous cp nerfs, because Pro endgame players pull out insane dps, Instead of actually buffing the dungeon/trials hp.
It just doesn't feel good, having to work HARD to reach our max potential just so we get nerfed and nerfed.
All this is doing is making those casuals have a harder, much much harder time reaching those dps numbers.
And the ones that did reach 100k will get their damage nerfed also.

The issue is Casuals that aren't even reaching those numbers, can't even Join trials because if you don't do 100k you are ignored. And doing those 100k just keeps getting harder.
And even if they did reach those asked dps numbers.
There's so many team wipe mechanics they can't even join the trial because they have to spend hours on youtube seeing guides and waiting days to weeks for a trial run their guild might potentially do.This if They aren't asked for achievements to join the run.

This just kills all the willingness players have in doing endgame content.
I for example gave up on vmol. Waiting 1 week constantly for my guild run and Spending Hours there on those 2 bosses for nothing, This ignoring all the lagg.

Do you think a casual just because his dps can be near a pros in the future they can survive all this insta kill stuff? Who has the time to spend hours searching for guides and constantly repeating runs to have a no death achievement for the reward on one of the many many dungeons and trials? Because from what i see, most of eso's player base aren't those kids with free time that can spend days on fortnite

That's how i see it, 130k dps seems like a lot for a trial run, the issue is when the trial run has to be repeated 10-20x those 130k help a lot decrease the time wasted retrying.

This ignoring all the trials and dungeons where close range players have to create long range builds because again, insta kill mechanics.

Nerhesi

They are fixing one problem and exasperating another.

Weaving/light attacking is a huge problem (and I'm sweaty dueling weaving/cancelling player).
Burst being the only reliable way to kill because of the simple-nature-gameplay that is all about sustain, rather than absolute values (your recovery is a lot more important than you actual pools) is the other big problem.

So now with reducing DoT effectiveness (dmg and healing), there will be more focus on burst. Especially now that healing dots will run for a longer period.

AinSoph

Less DPS = Longer Encounter times = More exposure to 1 shots = More time wasted = More frustration. How hard is it for ZOS to connect the dots?

ZOS_Icy

Greetings,

After further review we have decided to move this thread to a category we think is more appropriate for this topic.

Thank you for your understanding.

MindOfTheSwarm

francesinhalover wrote: »

I don't understand killing peoples dps by 10-15% + the previous cp nerfs, because Pro endgame players pull out insane dps, Instead of actually buffing the dungeon/trials hp.
It just doesn't feel good, having to work HARD to reach our max potential just so we get nerfed and nerfed.
All this is doing is making those casuals have a harder, much much harder time reaching those dps numbers.

The issue is Casuals that aren't even reaching those numbers, can't even Join trials because if you don't do 100k you are ignored. And doing those 100k just keeps getting harder.
And even if they did reach those asked dps numbers.
There's so many team wipe mechanics they can't even join the trial because they have to spend hours on youtube seeing guides and waiting days to weeks for a trial run their guild might potentially do.This if They aren't asked for achievements to join the run.

This just kills all the willingness players have in doing endgame content.
I for example gave up on vmol. Waiting 1 week constantly for my guild run and Spending Hours there on those 2 bosses for nothing, This ignoring all the lagg.

Do you think a casual just because his dps can be near a pros in the future they can survive all this insta kill stuff? Who has the time to spend hours searching for guides and constantly repeating runs to have a no death achievement for the reward on one of the many many dungeons and trials? Because from what i see, most of eso's player base aren't those kids with free time that can spend days on fortnite

That's how i see it, 130k dps seems like a lot for a trial run, the issue is when the trial run has to be repeated 10-20x those 130k help a lot decrease the time wasted retrying.

This ignoring all the trials and dungeons where close range players have to create long range builds because again, insta kill mechanics.

Any guild that asks for minimum 100k DPS is not a guild worth joining. I remember the day when 30k was considered good and that was on Vet MoL. If a guild asks for minimum 40k, that’s ok. But 100k minimum is just ridiculous, I have no issues reaching that number but I won’t join a guild that has those restrictions.

PrimusTiberius

this is just another example of what happens when players complain about content being too easy, ZOS comes in and starts nerfing things, to bad ZOS can't nerf some of the ridiculous RNG in this game

Alchemical

More engaging mechanics that demand an answer or result in a punishment is better game design than enshrining a bug as a mechanic because people might complain. I'm not even going to clarify that with 'my opinion is' that's just a basic principal of game design.

I see people doing 100k damage eat wipes in normal Cloudrest because they won't peel from the boss for 5 seconds to send down spears and then everyone dies. That's not bad design, that's bad players. You are receiving appropriate feedback for your gameplay decisions. Your parse is not more important than playing correctly. It doesn't take hours to learn mechanics, but it might take hours for people to finally learn not to tunnel bosses.

A nerf to a bug that is prohibitively difficult for new (or disabled) players to master isn't going to keep casuals out of trials, the weird attitude that you NEED to have ludicrous DPS does. Elitism and an unwillingness to uplift people of a 'lower' skill level by teaching them mechanics correctly instead of demanding faceroll DPS in hopes to skip boss mechanics is the actual problem.

This is why WoW's raid scene is an inaccessible mess, coming from a former Mythic raider in that game. Every group asking for higher item level than the raid even drops to skip mechanics means that no one who actually needs the gear/experience gets it and further thins out the pool of people who are otherwise talented and capable of clearing from participating in the scene at all and they languish in Raid Finder (or normals for this game). That means no one to fill out your raids, which is why it takes weeks to get a group together. It's why one person dropping is a death sentence to a run because you'll struggle to find a replacement that meets arbitrarily high standards. It's literally a game culture problem, not a mechanical one.

Dagoth_Rac

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

francesinhalover wrote: »

I don't understand killing peoples dps by 10-15% + the previous cp nerfs, because Pro endgame players pull out insane dps, Instead of actually buffing the dungeon/trials hp.
It just doesn't feel good, having to work HARD to reach our max potential just so we get nerfed and nerfed.
All this is doing is making those casuals have a harder, much much harder time reaching those dps numbers.

The issue is Casuals that aren't even reaching those numbers, can't even Join trials because if you don't do 100k you are ignored. And doing those 100k just keeps getting harder.
And even if they did reach those asked dps numbers.
There's so many team wipe mechanics they can't even join the trial because they have to spend hours on youtube seeing guides and waiting days to weeks for a trial run their guild might potentially do.This if They aren't asked for achievements to join the run.

This just kills all the willingness players have in doing endgame content.
I for example gave up on vmol. Waiting 1 week constantly for my guild run and Spending Hours there on those 2 bosses for nothing, This ignoring all the lagg.

Do you think a casual just because his dps can be near a pros in the future they can survive all this insta kill stuff? Who has the time to spend hours searching for guides and constantly repeating runs to have a no death achievement for the reward on one of the many many dungeons and trials? Because from what i see, most of eso's player base aren't those kids with free time that can spend days on fortnite

That's how i see it, 130k dps seems like a lot for a trial run, the issue is when the trial run has to be repeated 10-20x those 130k help a lot decrease the time wasted retrying.

This ignoring all the trials and dungeons where close range players have to create long range builds because again, insta kill mechanics.

Any guild that asks for minimum 100k DPS is not a guild worth joining. I remember the day when 30k was considered good and that was on Vet MoL. If a guild asks for minimum 40k, that’s ok. But 100k minimum is just ridiculous, I have no issues reaching that number but I won’t join a guild that has those restrictions.

100k DPS turns a lot of seemingly difficult content into Easy Mode. That is mainly what those guilds want. This is partly the fault of lazy raid leaders who just want to burn stuff and not explain mechanics or engage in meaningful cooperation. But also partly game design fault. If dungeons and trials were not stuffed with encounters where high DPS allows you to skip or ignore mechanics, guilds would not be so obsessed with high DPS.

tonyblack

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

francesinhalover wrote: »

I don't understand killing peoples dps by 10-15% + the previous cp nerfs, because Pro endgame players pull out insane dps, Instead of actually buffing the dungeon/trials hp.
It just doesn't feel good, having to work HARD to reach our max potential just so we get nerfed and nerfed.
All this is doing is making those casuals have a harder, much much harder time reaching those dps numbers.

The issue is Casuals that aren't even reaching those numbers, can't even Join trials because if you don't do 100k you are ignored. And doing those 100k just keeps getting harder.
And even if they did reach those asked dps numbers.
There's so many team wipe mechanics they can't even join the trial because they have to spend hours on youtube seeing guides and waiting days to weeks for a trial run their guild might potentially do.This if They aren't asked for achievements to join the run.

This just kills all the willingness players have in doing endgame content.
I for example gave up on vmol. Waiting 1 week constantly for my guild run and Spending Hours there on those 2 bosses for nothing, This ignoring all the lagg.

Do you think a casual just because his dps can be near a pros in the future they can survive all this insta kill stuff? Who has the time to spend hours searching for guides and constantly repeating runs to have a no death achievement for the reward on one of the many many dungeons and trials? Because from what i see, most of eso's player base aren't those kids with free time that can spend days on fortnite

That's how i see it, 130k dps seems like a lot for a trial run, the issue is when the trial run has to be repeated 10-20x those 130k help a lot decrease the time wasted retrying.

This ignoring all the trials and dungeons where close range players have to create long range builds because again, insta kill mechanics.

Any guild that asks for minimum 100k DPS is not a guild worth joining. I remember the day when 30k was considered good and that was on Vet MoL. If a guild asks for minimum 40k, that’s ok. But 100k minimum is just ridiculous, I have no issues reaching that number but I won’t join a guild that has those restrictions.

You confusing trial dummy dps vs 6kk skeleton, which was standard back then. 100k dps on iron atro should be equal to 55k or so, not that big of a gap. And honestly, it’s quite understandable for raid leads to demand such parses for newer trials. Just look at dread sail reef, it’s so heavy on mechanics and requires so much coordination, having most dds on your team parsing less than 85k on average would make it very tough for everyone with lots of wipes and possibly lost time.

phaneub17_ESO

ZOS_Icy wrote: »

Greetings,

After further review we have decided to move this thread to a category we think is more appropriate for this topic.

Thank you for your understanding.

Wait... this got moved TO General Discussion??? Guess not all threads go elsewhere to die.

SilverBride

PrimusTiberius wrote: »

this is just another example of what happens when players complain about content being too easy...

I was just thinking that very thing.

imno007b14_ESO

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

francesinhalover wrote: »

I don't understand killing peoples dps by 10-15% + the previous cp nerfs, because Pro endgame players pull out insane dps, Instead of actually buffing the dungeon/trials hp.
It just doesn't feel good, having to work HARD to reach our max potential just so we get nerfed and nerfed.
All this is doing is making those casuals have a harder, much much harder time reaching those dps numbers.

The issue is Casuals that aren't even reaching those numbers, can't even Join trials because if you don't do 100k you are ignored. And doing those 100k just keeps getting harder.
And even if they did reach those asked dps numbers.
There's so many team wipe mechanics they can't even join the trial because they have to spend hours on youtube seeing guides and waiting days to weeks for a trial run their guild might potentially do.This if They aren't asked for achievements to join the run.

This just kills all the willingness players have in doing endgame content.
I for example gave up on vmol. Waiting 1 week constantly for my guild run and Spending Hours there on those 2 bosses for nothing, This ignoring all the lagg.

Do you think a casual just because his dps can be near a pros in the future they can survive all this insta kill stuff? Who has the time to spend hours searching for guides and constantly repeating runs to have a no death achievement for the reward on one of the many many dungeons and trials? Because from what i see, most of eso's player base aren't those kids with free time that can spend days on fortnite

That's how i see it, 130k dps seems like a lot for a trial run, the issue is when the trial run has to be repeated 10-20x those 130k help a lot decrease the time wasted retrying.

This ignoring all the trials and dungeons where close range players have to create long range builds because again, insta kill mechanics.

Any guild that asks for minimum 100k DPS is not a guild worth joining. I remember the day when 30k was considered good and that was on Vet MoL. If a guild asks for minimum 40k, that’s ok. But 100k minimum is just ridiculous, I have no issues reaching that number but I won’t join a guild that has those restrictions.

Most guilds still don't. 50-60k on a trial dummy is sufficient for the majority of guilds for 90% of the vet trial content.

P. S. It might NOT be sufficient for more trials after the nerfs, because right now a group can afford to let some lower level dps tag along because they usually have at least a few people who can put out tons of damage, but after the nerf with EVERYONE doing lower dps, I don't know how that will shake out

SirLeeMinion

Although experience shows that nothing we write will influence the incoming nerfs, I have to agree with you OP. The continual DPS nerfs and combat design whiplash aimed at the top DPS players actually hurt the rest of the player base quite a bit more. It does little to decrease high-end DPS and demoralizes a significant portion of the player base.

A simple solution might be to limit the incoming damage received by bosses. Something along the lines of: trial bosses can receive a maximum of 800 DPS and dungeon bosses a max of 150 DPS.

I'm involved in quite a few guilds across NA and EU. Judging by responses to "lfm vet [insert DLC dungeon]" very few people even want to attempt high-end content. Nerfing DPS across the board won't help this.

I took the free eso+ offer on some of my accounts to manage inventory space. I won't be queuing for rnds on these accounts this week, because I don't have time to read all the guides and learn all the one-shots and quirks for whatever comes up. The "year two" DLC package has no appeal. I don't want those dungeons added to my rnd queue. DLC dungeon design is a problem; nerfing DPS will not help this.

Trial designs that wipe a whole team when one player misses a mechanic discourage many from participating; nerfing DPS won't help this.

I've been running vet Arx solo for the medusa ring on one account. The queue is too long as DPS. I don't want to run it as tank, because the last Boss drops taunt. Players complain and blame when it kills them. Nerfing DPS won't help this.

WuffyCerulei

I honestly have to disagree, coming from someone who hates one-shots. After a few years ago when healers were being pretty vocal about feeling they're not needed due to various reasons, unavoidable one-shots were one of them. You can't heal through something that deleted the dps in literally one hit they didn't see coming. So the unavoidable ones have essentially disappeared, outside of whole group wipes in trials (i.e. Cloudrest portal failure). Most of what one could call one-shots or instakills in PVE these days are mechanics that the player physically has to avoid or deal with, such as ground AoEs, boss mechanics meant for the tank, and things you either have to kill or do a special mechanic with. Getting used to these mechanics is quite literally a "get good" scenario, where you have to learn to deal with them one way or another.

Riptide

Their penchant for releasing carrots every expansion in the form of overpowered mythics and sets will ensure volatility in dps variance for the foreseeable. I’m glad they are taking a look at weaving, but sigh, that volatility will be there.

I understand people who get acclimated to normal daily dungeons and the tank and spank get irritated when they actually hit a mechanic, but seriously now, mechanics are part of any and I mean any decent game. If there were no dance to learn together it at the mid and late game then it would become entirely anemic.

You have to take the time to learn mechanics, the same way you learn an instrument or a play in sports. That isn’t some kind of negative, it is the very thing that generates teamwork.

3-4 tank and spank target dummies with trash you can evaporate in between them, there just isn’t any substance to that. Has to be things to learn and overcome.

There are many guilds that do progression raiding that do not require absurd dps to get through. There are guilds that call the selves progression guilds but only want to spend two or three goes to bang out a skin or whatever, with 2/3 of trial never having done it. That isn’t progression based, its steamrolling, so they want top dps. Move on from them and study the fights with folks also studying the fights.

The studying of and learning the fights is exactly what raiding at its heart is, and has been since these games were invented. It is the idea that mechanics are a nuisance that has been created by folks who have had their idea of what progression is skewed by people who want to get a new trial stomped in a week, which is just flat ridiculous. That is either a carry or over dpsing through everything, it isn’t actual progression raiding.

JustAGoodPlayer

I am HA player. And i get a lot of nerfs in this 6 years. A lot of my favorite sets (not HA), skills, tank builds get changed or nerfed.

Now it is time for LA players to get balanced - like all other players who do use different game styles was.

So i do not see any thing wrong in it.

Dr_Con

The idea of "Weaving" has not existed in just this game but other games as well, like in Knight Online we called it "Combo'ing" and it was the skill of an elite player. Essentially, you cancel out the attack animation to achieve another attack- when describing what it is it's easy to see that it's an exploit pure and simple. A beneficial exploit, but an exploit nonetheless. I don't mind that they are taking a look at it as they cannot really balance the game or generate content at the highest levels without doing it as there are players who naturally consider it an exploit. No amount of brow-beating or attempts at reeducating these players will get you to convince them otherwise when objectively, it is a beneficial exploit that favors people with low latency.

Overall I hope to walk away from encounters with a feeling of accomplishment for any role I'm playing, whether it be tank, healer, or dps. I hope this is kept in mind as they continue to generate more content, as obnoxious as people are when it comes to posting their parses in a boss fight lasting 10 seconds, I'd rather have a 10 minute encounter where damage dealt isn't the sole determining factor. I do hope some older content gets reworked with this in mind.

Troodon80

Part of the problem mentioned in your post, something ZOS has specifically stated, is that the gap in skill is detrimental to the balance of the content. Some groups say they want 100k because that's what is demanded by the content in order to reach certain thresholds. Doing Xalvakka hard mode, doing Planesbreakers or Swashbuckler Supreme, etc. The standards are not arbitrary. Casual players are not reaching for those sorts of achievements and they're not aiming for that content. Any social guild demanding for those sorts of numbers should quite frankly be ashamed of themselves. If they want to bring balance to the content, then they need to bring balance to the skill gap. They need a skill gap that they can control, understand, and create content for. That is the goal they've stated here, and it is a good goal.

However, the disparity in skill, which then also extends to the content they want to make, is a symptom. It's not the cause. Cause -> Effect -> Cause -> Effect. Going in reverse order: content is unbalanced because of the skill gap. Effect <- Cause. But the skill gap exists because of a poor system of learning and accessability (for example, the tutorial; when a game tells you to light attack spam and teaches you nothing about skills or buffs or sets, etc., you're probably going to light attack spam because that's what the game has told you to do) which turns it into a symptom. Effect <- Cause. There exists two extremes because of this, among several other reasons (it's not just one reason). If they keep trying to patch symptoms then they'll be here until the end of time. Which is why we've seen patch after patch after patch since One Tamriel fail to address the issue and fail to curtail the DPS power-creep.

BretonMage

WuffyCerulei wrote: »

I honestly have to disagree, coming from someone who hates one-shots. After a few years ago when healers were being pretty vocal about feeling they're not needed due to various reasons, unavoidable one-shots were one of them. You can't heal through something that deleted the dps in literally one hit they didn't see coming. So the unavoidable ones have essentially disappeared, outside of whole group wipes in trials (i.e. Cloudrest portal failure). Most of what one could call one-shots or instakills in PVE these days are mechanics that the player physically has to avoid or deal with, such as ground AoEs, boss mechanics meant for the tank, and things you either have to kill or do a special mechanic with. Getting used to these mechanics is quite literally a "get good" scenario, where you have to learn to deal with them one way or another.

Avoidable one-shots are also utterly horrible the first several times you die to them. The problem with these special mechanics is that you can’t practise for it, and there’s not a lot you can do to prepare for it, aside from experiencing the content a few times; dying a lot; getting shouted at and all that. And there is NOTHING as demoralising as dying a lot and not being able to complete content.

Even if you tried to read up guides on the dungeon/trial, it doesn’t adequately prepare you for actually experiencing it. Every time I start a new dungeon, I read a guide. In exactly 0 of those cases was it enough to prepare me for the content. (Oh wait, there was one, one of the easier DLC dungeons.)

At least if you relied purely on DPS, you can prepare and practice THAT.

Of course I’m not suggesting everything should be a DPS race, but while there has been a lot of outcry in the past against LA weaving, I think assuming that people will love a mechanics-heavy approach instead is, I think, wrong. Let’s not push the balance too far to the other side here.

Riptide

BretonMage wrote: »

Avoidable one-shots are also utterly horrible the first several times you die to them. The problem with these special mechanics is that you can’t practise for it, and there’s not a lot you can do to prepare for it, aside from experiencing the content a few times; dying a lot; getting shouted at and all that. And there is NOTHING as demoralising as dying a lot and not being able to complete content.

Even if you tried to read up guides on the dungeon/trial, it doesn’t adequately prepare you for actually experiencing it. Every time I start a new dungeon, I read a guide. In exactly 0 of those cases was it enough to prepare me for the content. (Oh wait, there was one, one of the easier DLC dungeons.)

Utterly horrible? Getting shouted at? Demoralizing? I submit that you need new people to run content with if they are “shouting” at you, immediately. And if dying to mechanics are outright horrible to you, then I really do suggest you shift your expectations of what group content is all about. It absolutely is about trial and error, together.

I have ran with many a raid group, as every role, most of the time either as raid leader as MT or heals - in many, many games from the birth of online gaming. Mechanics are what it is all about. DPS checks are secondary.

I mean studying for and trial and error is what makes long term friends. I remember almost no one from the raid groups over the years the over DPS their way through mechanics. Those groups come and go, they are ephemeral.

Now the folks who I have genuinely progression raided with, learned the dance with over the course of many deaths - I have quite a number of lifelong friends from among those. Having to learn where to stand, timing, cooperation etc is just flat the heart of it and overcoming it together builds group catharsis in the same way sports or group based music does.

At least if you relied purely on DPS, you can prepare and practice THAT.

Indeed, but spending hours upon hours at the practice dummy, come together for 2-3 hours to tank and spank together is simply not a team building exercise, or at least a very substantive one. Self practice has its place, and I’m an advocate of it.

But mechanics are what make it a group practice activity.

Yes, it is hard, even stressful feeling as if you are that one person who doesn’t know the dance moves. But that is either the product of running with a mismatched crowd, overestimating your teammates, or directly speaking a thin skin.

You have to be willing to fail, in front of other people. You genuinely apologize, you ask what you need to do, you do your best - and if the people you are with make you feel awful if you are doing that then you find new people.

And those people can wind up being lifelong friends, made largely because you faced a set of challenges that you overcame together, were kind enough to each other to do so, and built trust in one another strong enough to weather.

JustAGoodPlayer

You say about LA like it is some thing special - in a lot of games character do it automatically.

Here you need to make it by pressing button.

In other games you hit LA between skills like here.

But it is not some thing special. It really do to much DPS here. If players who do not like it will do near the same DPs it would be good change.

If you like it - you can use it. If you do not like - you will lose some DPS - but not 20% damage like before and it is good.

I like to press LA some times - but some times 70+% of time i do not. So when server will lag i will may be skip some and be happy.

If LA is the only thing that make some players special ... well - they can learn a lot more and play better.

Thing that works automatically in a lot of games is not some thing players need to be proud )))

Yes it is fun some times. But it is all and it must not give 20% DPS difference.

Marto

These DPS races are designed the way they are because player DPS is too high.

True, ZOS could fight this by buffing DPS, but that trivializes old content. Over time, players become used to trivial content and mechanics that can be skipped.

And because now content is trivialized, the new trial will be even harder with even more strict DPS races.

This is power creep. And it has been going on for too long.

The only good solution is to implement nerfs. It's not perfect, and it does introduce problems. But doing the opposite introduces far more problems.

Nerfs are healthier and better for the game.

When you ask for buffs, you're asking for harder DPS races.

Troodon80

JustAGoodPlayer wrote: »

Thing that works automatically in a lot of games is not some thing players need to be proud )))

Yes it is fun some times. But it is all and it must not give 20% DPS difference.

This is a misconception of what light attacks actually are. In other games, auto attacks are practically meaningless. That's why they're auto and need no input from the player. Compared to other MMOs which have abilities using different cooldowns, those which are global cooldowns (GCD) versus those which are off-global cooldown (oGCD), oGCDs very often attribute a not-insubstantial amount of DPS for those who can pull it off. Light attacks are ESO's equivalent to oGCDs. They need input from the user and have an independent cooldown from normal abilities.

Alchemical

BretonMage wrote: »

Avoidable one-shots are also utterly horrible the first several times you die to them. The problem with these special mechanics is that you can’t practise for it, and there’s not a lot you can do to prepare for it, aside from experiencing the content a few times; dying a lot; getting shouted at and all that. And there is NOTHING as demoralising as dying a lot and not being able to complete content.

The idea that dying, especially in content that is designed to be challenging, is in some way humiliating, shameful, or even unexpected is a part of aforementioned culture problem. If you are learning a fight you simply need to confront the reality you will die a few times. Nobody ever in the history of any MMO at any skill level, no death'd a raid on the first attempt. Not without being hard carried by people who HAVE already done it at least. Sometimes you need to visually see the mechanic to understand it, that's okay. I would go as far as to say it's normal. You can read something and understand it, it's a completely different matter to implement it. You can watch someone do the fight, but if you don't have some kind of actual experience to compare it to the nuances of what makes them a good player is gonna be lost on you. A master fails a thousand times before they succeed, you can't expect a beginner to come out the proverbial womb decapitating gods.

Anyone shouting at people because they died their first pull of the night against a boss with a devastating mechanic is a bad lead, full stop. Anyone with such a short temper shouldn't be a lead because all you're going to do is demoralize your team, drive them off, discourage newer players from even attempting, and end up waiting weeks to get a group together to bang out a trial that takes 40 minutes. Enjoy the fruits of 'just being passionate about the game' as all your teammates make other plans for raid night to avoid getting screamed at. Having a tolerable personality is as much a skill as LAW and more than a few leads I've met need to brush up on it. Sadly, lots of people will submit themselves to this kind of treatment because they think it's normal.

If you're an actual leader you have to objectively assess what your weaknesses and fail points are and address them, not just yell at people who died. If you're leading and your raid is failing a mechanic, somewhere communication on what to do broke down and that's on you as the leader. You need to know how to read lots of data points (not just DPS) and to articulate directions clearly and concisely. It's a heavy responsibility to lead progression, it requires a lot of fine mechanical knowledge of the encounter and the game as a whole, as well as cultivating an understanding of your team and how best to utilize them. Lots of people put themselves in that position not because they care about building a good team and helping each other to learn and grow as players, but because they want the personal prestige and/or vet cosmetics and so think their desire imbues them with authority. It doesn't, that type of respect is earned by demonstrating good leadership skills.

JustAGoodPlayer

Troodon80 wrote: »

JustAGoodPlayer wrote: »

Thing that works automatically in a lot of games is not some thing players need to be proud )))

Yes it is fun some times. But it is all and it must not give 20% DPS difference.

This is a misconception of what light attacks actually are. In other games, auto attacks are practically meaningless. That's why they're auto and need no input from the player. Compared to other MMOs which have abilities using different cooldowns, those which are global cooldowns (GCD) versus those which are off-global cooldown (oGCD), oGCDs very often attribute a not-insubstantial amount of DPS for those who can pull it off. Light attacks are ESO's equivalent to oGCDs. They need input from the user and have an independent cooldown from normal abilities.

You can bash before - you can do = LA + Skill + bash = it do need to be pressed by player to.

Now when bash do 500 damage - will you do it ? I will not - only on sword and board (because it damage to small on tank so you do all you can to kill some thing faster).

If LA will do the same - i will be OK with that.
LA is not so much different from BASH - it needs the same 1 more button be pressed between skills - it even take resources.
LA is free.

So yes it needs user press 1 more button per second - but it is not some thing hard to do. it is boring and is fun only if you play at 3 AM when server works perfectly.

Yes it is fun and fells good that time - all other time including prime time - it feals bad.

So i am OK it will be fixed that way.

I like HA - i see no reason why game must force me to play any other way.

I like how lightningg HA casting. Why the hell i need to use some LA i do not like ?

To make 20% of DPS LA must be much better animated - if i use granad launcher - and LA would be mistles from it - OK.

But for 20% of damage LA is not made so cool )))

thorwyn

JustAGoodPlayer wrote: »

*stuff*

Hi Succuby.
Nice new account there.

Troodon80

JustAGoodPlayer wrote: »

You can bash before - you can do = LA + Skill + bash = it do need to be pressed by player to.

Now when bash do 500 damage - will you do it ? I will not - only on sword and board (because it damage to small on tank so you do all you can to kill some thing faster).

You're comparing apples to oranges. ZOS has said that bash is intended to be an interrupt and has specifically stated that it's not intended to be damage. Again, fundamentally misunderstanding the mechanics you are referring to.

Bash is intended to be a utility. Light and heavy attacks are intended to do damage. Auto attacks in other games are comparable to visual fluff so that your character isn't standing around idle between the end of one cast and the start of the next.

Kisakee

Mechanics aren't a problem when played properly and even melee players can do it.

The problem is casuals demanding being able to do content they are too casual for. If you want something you train for it like everyone else. You can't expect doing veteran trials with little to no training dealing 15k on the dummy as a DD while wearing green and blue overland sets. LA weaving in that regard is just something most casuals aren't even capable of let alone dealing 100k+.

The whole opening post to me sounds like "I'm not even close to 100k+ and now you nerf something that will probably lower my damage even more but i want to do veteran content without the need to play mechanics so stop it.". That's just the wrong way, it's not going to work. And damage isn't the answer to everything.

You can't have good groups wihout proper tanks and healers, they are the backbones of every successful raid. Most damage can be mitigated, it's your job as a DD to learn what will kill you no matter what and what you can survive. The simple answer to your problem: Be less casual. If you want success you can't be a Weekend-DD-not-knowing-or-caring-for-anything.

eovogtb16_ESO

Amottica

francesinhalover wrote: »

The issue is Casuals that aren't even reaching those numbers, can't even Join trials because if you don't do 100k you are ignored.

This is not correct.

There are guilds and raid teams for all skill levels of play. A raid guild or group with wise leadership will have goals in mind and to meet those goals they will have requirements of their players for each role. This is a requirement if those goals are to have meaning.

As such, the top raiding guilds are going to go for early clears and speed/score afterward. This type of guild will have very high requirements and only the best players will be raiding there. However, there are guilds and groups with very different goals and many have requirements much lower than the 100k mentioned in the OP.

However, even a guild/group with more moderate goals will need players who are able to pay attention so they notice mechanics and avoid the one-shot mechanical. After all, a dead DPS is not doing any DPS and becomes a major strain on the guild if another DPS is constantly stopping doing damage to resurrect them.

eovogtb16_ESO wrote: »

and I just saw this post which is proof that what I said is accurate.

It is a matter of personal responsibility to find the guild/group that our skill level matches the group's goals.

Jpk0012

The problem is ZOS has decided mechanics will be the progression in ESO. Not gear, not some other standard, but Dark Souls like mechanics.

They are then shocked when their RPG has people quitting or ignoring "end-game" content. High Isle bosses give no rewards, but would put Dark Souls to shame. High Isle bosses before this event were totally dead. Very, very few people want this type of content. Dodging 1,000 mechanics for vendor trash isn't why people play RPGs.