All the Insta kill mechanics are the problem with eso, not Light attack weaving.

Riptide · July 2022

Hehehe, as having platted multiple Fromsoft games including Demon’s Souls and Elden Ring as well as ESO I can absolutely say that only vet maelstrom arena and vet vateshraan is anything like comparable to those titles. And that is a fraction of 1% of this game.

Whats more pretty well all of ESO’s major competitors contain very serious mechanics to jump through, including FFXIV. Not one of them make ESO’s mechanics look anything like overbearing.

I mean you ought to give the raids in even Destiny 2 a shot to get an idea of what overwhelming mechanics look like, and that is a first person shooter. Everquest’s mechanics make ESO’s look like childsplay, and we had 2-3 times the number of people to cat herd back then - with no voice comms.

So I mean, yeah.

haelgaan · July 2022

Jpk0012 wrote: »

The problem is ZOS has decided CHEESY mechanics will be the progression in ESO.

added for emphasis. the latest trial as a great example, ZOS has forgotten what good mechanics are have have gone to cheese-land.

i hate group line dancing, err stupid mechanics. i'd love to get the new sets, but i can't stomach that place.

Kisakee · July 2022

Jpk0012 wrote: »

High Isle bosses give no rewards, but would put Dark Souls to shame. High Isle bosses before this event were totally dead. Very, very few people want this type of content.

I want it, those bosses are finally worth that term and somewhat hard to solo. Gimme more of this, i like the challenge.

M0ntie · July 2022

The advanced game content needs to be challenging, or there is no sense of achievement. Learning mechanics is part of this and at vet level that means one shots. The problem behind the OP's complaints is not the one shot mechanics, but finding guilds with reasonable requirements that run at times suitable for them.

100k+ dps is NOT needed unless your looking to do trifecta (speed, no death, HM) trials. If your guild mandates that, find other guilds. This is a reason why we need more than 5 guilds because finding groups of people who are wanting to run the trials you are at the time you can play requires being in several guilds.
I've comfortably cleared the new vDSR with a guild that only required 80k+ for dps. This is quite enough dps for vet (non HM) trials.

I do strongly agree that ZoS needs to STOP MAKING CHANGES THAT REQUIRE COMPLETE CHARACTER REWORKS. This drives people away who are wanting to progress vet trials. Some players want to work on learning and completing this content, not grinding new skills, sets and learning new rotations.

thorwyn · July 2022

It's so funny...
Pre HI, everyone was like: I am not interested in learning how to weave or bar swap because (insert random reason here). Then we got oakensoul ring and all of a sudden, people can score considerable DPS numbers just by spamming one skill, (which is fine, don't get me wrong) and they think they are ready for vet content. Now it's the mechanics that are so annoying and difficult and the fact that you can actually ... like... DIE! In a fight!
How dull do you want the game to be? Except vAA, which is basically stack&burn all the way through, there is NO veteran trial that doesn't require the group to play mechanics. And that's ok because after all it is VETERAN. If you don't like mechanics, play normal and you can ignore basically everything and roleplay your way to victory. Veteran is a different tier and if you go there, you know what to expect.

Stamicka · July 2022

Practice practice practice. Some things just take time. In 2015 I thought I hit a wall with vet Maelstrom. It truly felt unbeatable, and I blamed RNG and bad game design whenever I died. It took me a few months, but eventually I found myself making it further than I ever had. Eventually I got my first clear and it was one of the best feelings I’ve ever experienced in ESO. A few months later I got flawless conqueror, which I didn’t think I would ever be able to do. I learned so much about the game’s combat system through my struggles in maelstrom. Learning to avoid death in maelstrom involved healing/shielding yourself, focusing the right targets, dancing around AOEs, doing damage while under pressure, and interrupting dangerous attacks. People who stuck through maelstrom in the early days truly came out as better players by learning to survive the various dangers in each arena.

Anyway, all of this is to say how important these difficult mechanics can be. If vet Maelstrom was easy in 2015, I probably wouldn’t have learned many of the important skills needed in other pieces of vet content. It wouldn’t have felt nearly as rewarding to get that first clear either. Stick through the deaths, the game doesn’t need to be made easier.

BretonMage · July 2022

Riptide wrote: »

Yes, it is hard, even stressful feeling as if you are that one person who doesn’t know the dance moves. But that is either the product of running with a mismatched crowd, overestimating your teammates, or directly speaking a thin skin.

You have to be willing to fail, in front of other people. You genuinely apologize, you ask what you need to do, you do your best - and if the people you are with make you feel awful if you are doing that then you find new people.

And those people can wind up being lifelong friends, made largely because you faced a set of challenges that you overcame together, were kind enough to each other to do so, and built trust in one another strong enough to weather.

The experience was probably exacerbated by the fact that most people in the group didn't know what to do, to be honest. What you are describing sounds like an ideal situation, but how many people are lucky enough to have that? And again, I do feel that there is really no way to prepare for content like that. We now have a guild finder, which is a start, but that's as far as it goes. Giving players more ways to ease into harder content would be much better than throwing us in to sink or swim.

Alchemical wrote: »

The idea that dying, especially in content that is designed to be challenging, is in some way humiliating, shameful, or even unexpected is a part of aforementioned culture problem. If you are learning a fight you simply need to confront the reality you will die a few times. Nobody ever in the history of any MMO at any skill level, no death'd a raid on the first attempt. Not without being hard carried by people who HAVE already done it at least. Sometimes you need to visually see the mechanic to understand it, that's okay. I would go as far as to say it's normal. You can read something and understand it, it's a completely different matter to implement it. You can watch someone do the fight, but if you don't have some kind of actual experience to compare it to the nuances of what makes them a good player is gonna be lost on you. A master fails a thousand times before they succeed, you can't expect a beginner to come out the proverbial womb decapitating gods.

Thank you for explaining. We were unlucky to be severely underprepared for the experience and short-handed too. It was possibly less about the stress of dying and the shouting, than really, not knowing what to do and having an absurdly short amount of time to do this unfamiliar thing. So again, giving us an opportunity to be more prepared would be, I think, kind, and would make the experience much more approachable for people new to this kind of content.

Also, I find mechanics are less frustrating if they feel intuitive or we are given clear visual cues on what is expected. I really dislike mechanics where you have to teleport somewhere to do some seemingly unrelated thing.

Toxic_Hemlock · July 2022

I for one will never do trials or many hard cord areas simply because of the insta-kill garbage. I know, learn the mechanics, but even after I learn them it takes but one mistake to end up dead and that is not fun when you are trying to help your group.

Zos, if you are reading this maybe the reason many people want the highest DPS possible is actually to skip many of these mechanics?

If you reduce the instant kill, you don't have to tweak DPS numbers as much IMO. I am not asking content to be trivial where you need only beat on something till it dies without repercussion. But there has to be a way to punish players, say an increasing punishment time out (encased in ice etc.) that could be used in its place thus punishing the player when he makes a mistake and stands in red. This would make the rest of the team have to pull more weight of course, but so long as it is possible for the person to learn it would not initially be as harsh.

With this methods you can still make a mistake and not (possibly) have the entire team wipe. Just some random thoughts.

colossalvoids · July 2022

thorwyn wrote: »

JustAGoodPlayer wrote: »

*stuff*

Hi Succuby.
Nice new account there.

Kinda died here, made my morning. A lot of effort actually put in to stay on forums, props to that.

ccfeeling · July 2022

Wait ...
ESO already huge nerfed the one shot mechanics , not many mechanics no time to react and kill you instantly , SCP final boss triangle poison AOE a good example 1 shot people , not many left .

In fact , I wanna say ZOS over nerfed the DLC mechanics , almost all DLC dungeons tuned down the level , players don't have to play it right and smart .

Redguards_Revenge · July 2022

Nerhesi wrote: »

They are fixing one problem and exasperating another.

Weaving/light attacking is a huge problem (and I'm sweaty dueling weaving/cancelling player).
Burst being the only reliable way to kill because of the simple-nature-gameplay that is all about sustain, rather than absolute values (your recovery is a lot more important than you actual pools) is the other big problem.

So now with reducing DoT effectiveness (dmg and healing), there will be more focus on burst. Especially now that healing dots will run for a longer period.

I am glad you also came to this conclusion and realize why redguard stats are all ones that look good on paper but in practice is utter trash. I sit here daily playing redguard realizing that they nerfed the race into the ground and that other races that get things like stam recov, weapon damage, etc. Is far superior because it allows those classes to place resources in other things. While redguard has these horrible passives that actually do nothing for it. and a unbuffable recovery amount every 5 seconds.

If a weapon skill costs 1500 stamina and let's say redguard passive removes what? 10%? I don't remember it because its trash.

That's about 150 stamina per weapon skill...guess what? Since weapon skills arent used as spammables It would be better to get stamina recovery over this 150 stamina less.

Who cares if a weapon ulti costs slightly less nowadays.

BRB I have to go make a post addressing this lol.

Dr_Con · July 2022

Riptide wrote: »

Everquest’s mechanics make ESO’s look like childsplay, and we had 2-3 times the number of people to cat herd back then - with no voice comms.

As a veteran and TLP EQ player I feel this. EQ had me feeling like I walked 15 miles uphill both ways to get to the mechanics. To make matters worse, having to stay at the screen with your eyes peeled for a mob to spawn once every 2 weeks within a 72 hour window, or making people do it in shifts, was taxing, and we made sure to know every encounter ahead of time or have our binds ready to bring people up to speed. I appreciate the fact that ESO removes this element of poopsocking and that the corpse runs aren't nearly as demanding- something I'll never miss is sitting at my computer waiting for someone to say Baconwaffles to trigger a sound bind to wake everyone up and head to a certain zone. EQ's mana regen system had players feeling like they were mana batteries waiting to be juiced, which made people create alts and led to multi-boxing and macroquest issues

As content progressed and became more instanced the fights did indeed become more difficult as it was no longer a race to the boss, but each expansion that got released saw an obseletion of gear. This main factor is what caused me to quit playing that game, and why I keep coming back to ESO. My gear is not obselete when I take a long break, there's just different options when I come back- gear staying at 160 CP is something I remember my guild members fighting for.

francesinhalover · July 2022

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

francesinhalover wrote: »

I don't understand killing peoples dps by 10-15% + the previous cp nerfs, because Pro endgame players pull out insane dps, Instead of actually buffing the dungeon/trials hp.
It just doesn't feel good, having to work HARD to reach our max potential just so we get nerfed and nerfed.
All this is doing is making those casuals have a harder, much much harder time reaching those dps numbers.

The issue is Casuals that aren't even reaching those numbers, can't even Join trials because if you don't do 100k you are ignored. And doing those 100k just keeps getting harder.
And even if they did reach those asked dps numbers.
There's so many team wipe mechanics they can't even join the trial because they have to spend hours on youtube seeing guides and waiting days to weeks for a trial run their guild might potentially do.This if They aren't asked for achievements to join the run.

This just kills all the willingness players have in doing endgame content.
I for example gave up on vmol. Waiting 1 week constantly for my guild run and Spending Hours there on those 2 bosses for nothing, This ignoring all the lagg.

Do you think a casual just because his dps can be near a pros in the future they can survive all this insta kill stuff? Who has the time to spend hours searching for guides and constantly repeating runs to have a no death achievement for the reward on one of the many many dungeons and trials? Because from what i see, most of eso's player base aren't those kids with free time that can spend days on fortnite

That's how i see it, 130k dps seems like a lot for a trial run, the issue is when the trial run has to be repeated 10-20x those 130k help a lot decrease the time wasted retrying.

This ignoring all the trials and dungeons where close range players have to create long range builds because again, insta kill mechanics.

Any guild that asks for minimum 100k DPS is not a guild worth joining. I remember the day when 30k was considered good and that was on Vet MoL. If a guild asks for minimum 40k, that’s ok. But 100k minimum is just ridiculous, I have no issues reaching that number but I won’t join a guild that has those restrictions.

I have joined over 15 guilds and almost all of them asked for 100k (one asked for 90k) , achievements or for me to install a insane ammount of addons. And even than i couldn't join because they had their "favorite member" lists.

francesinhalover · July 2022

PrimusTiberius wrote: »

this is just another example of what happens when players complain about content being too easy, ZOS comes in and starts nerfing things, to bad ZOS can't nerf some of the ridiculous RNG in this game

Did players complain content was too easy?

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/608827/how-do-you-rate-elder-scrolls-online-vet-dlc-endgame-content-difficulty#latest
https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/vgjilc/how_do_you_rate_elder_scrolls_online_vet_dlc/

here's 2 polls in all of them you can see what people think of the difficulty.

Nerfing everyone because a insanely SMALL % thinks they are easy is not a good move, when you are hurting the vast majority of players.

SerafinaWaterstar · July 2022

Now the folks who I have genuinely progression raided with, learned the dance with over the course of many deaths - I have quite a number of lifelong friends from among those. Having to learn where to stand, timing, cooperation etc is just flat the heart of it and overcoming it together builds group catharsis in the same way sports or group based music does.

So much this.

I have found myself in the position of organising vet trials in our guild, and it is more about getting people to work together & support each other & learn the mechs & how to deal with them effectively than just ‘burn’. They can then go on and share their knowledge with others.

We are not a trial guild, but do vet progs, without drama & trying to make sure it is still enjoyable & fun - no shouting or recriminations. We all die, & encourage asking questions.

Trials do not have to be a dd fetishising ego fest, but something done with friends for enjoyment.

(And I much prefer mechs that can’t be ignored so you have to have a strategy rather than just ‘ignore & burn’ - very very dull otherwise)

alanmatillab16_ESO · July 2022

PrimusTiberius wrote: »

this is just another example of what happens when players complain about content being too easy, ZOS comes in and starts nerfing things, to bad ZOS can't nerf some of the ridiculous RNG in this game

The vast majority of complaints about the difficulty is for overland content being too easy and NOT group/raid content.

BloodMagicLord · July 2022

"can't even Join trials because if you don't do 100k you are ignored."
This is just complete misinformation. You won't get into trifecta groups and SOME hardmode groups if you don't have that DPS. But there are guilds that do intro runs in veteran trials who have a DPS req of 40k or even lower - I know this because I help to run one of them!

FrankonPC · July 2022

thorwyn wrote: »

It's so funny...
Pre HI, everyone was like: I am not interested in learning how to weave or bar swap because (insert random reason here). Then we got oakensoul ring and all of a sudden, people can score considerable DPS numbers just by spamming one skill, (which is fine, don't get me wrong) and they think they are ready for vet content. Now it's the mechanics that are so annoying and difficult and the fact that you can actually ... like... DIE! In a fight!
How dull do you want the game to be? Except vAA, which is basically stack&burn all the way through, there is NO veteran trial that doesn't require the group to play mechanics. And that's ok because after all it is VETERAN. If you don't like mechanics, play normal and you can ignore basically everything and roleplay your way to victory. Veteran is a different tier and if you go there, you know what to expect.

this is the point that's been made for years. complaints and the attempts to dumb down the game will never end. if you keep attempting to make that group happy, they wont stop until every dungeon is literally just a trial atronach.

francesinhalover · July 2022

BloodMagicLord wrote: »

"can't even Join trials because if you don't do 100k you are ignored."
This is just complete misinformation. You won't get into trifecta groups and SOME hardmode groups if you don't have that DPS. But there are guilds that do intro runs in veteran trials who have a DPS req of 40k or even lower - I know this because I help to run one of them!

Hasn't been my experience on europe so far, from around 15 joined guilds.
So if yours is eu i would love a invite.

CGPsaint · July 2022

I have played my main for the vast majority of my time playing ESO and he is currently sitting around 44K achievement points. When AWA went live, that added a whooping 2 achievements to my main's score. I'm missing some of the more specific Vet DLC dungeon achievements because I can't find 3 other players interested in earning them, I have 20 more ranks to go in PvP, and everything else that I'm missing is from Vet Trials. As soon as someone says "send me your parse video," I just tune out. Nobody ever asks if you know the mechanics or if you can refrain from dying repeatedly, it's always can you push out 4-5 times the required DPS because we don't want to be bothered with doing the mechanics. That's fine. I've made peace with the fact that I will most likely never run/complete any of the newer Vet Trials, as I would rather get together with friends and run 4-person content for fun. We are pretty used to the vicious cycle of buffs/nerfs and we'll either find a way to adapt and have fun, or else we'll go find a different game to play. Simple as that.

francesinhalover · July 2022

thorwyn wrote: »

It's so funny...
Pre HI, everyone was like: I am not interested in learning how to weave or bar swap because (insert random reason here). Then we got oakensoul ring and all of a sudden, people can score considerable DPS numbers just by spamming one skill, (which is fine, don't get me wrong) and they think they are ready for vet content. Now it's the mechanics that are so annoying and difficult and the fact that you can actually ... like... DIE! In a fight!
How dull do you want the game to be? Except vAA, which is basically stack&burn all the way through, there is NO veteran trial that doesn't require the group to play mechanics. And that's ok because after all it is VETERAN. If you don't like mechanics, play normal and you can ignore basically everything and roleplay your way to victory. Veteran is a different tier and if you go there, you know what to expect.

- There's a difference btw doing cradle of shadows last boss on hard mode, and doing fang lair's last boss.

velidreth is healthy, has insta kills but they are healthy and simple to learn to dodge, fang lair took me 14 hours, 14 hours where i was wasting the tanks time because the tank had already done the dungeon and wanted to be nice to me and help.
Scallecaller peak is impossible to pub because of the last boss, especially if you play close ranged, the rest one can at least explain the mechs.

- There's a difference btw vma last boss and the curse that is vetshran hollows last boss. Only reason many even did that one is because they used teleport skills.

- And to finish there's a difference btw fair and learnable and just straight unfair insta kills, and many of those get insanely worse if someone plays close range.

- And from what i see , the cheap unfair insta kills keep getting worse and worse.
I am not good with names, but there's a dungeon were the enemy just straight explodes without barely/doesn't giving a stamina character time to dodge.
Another example is cloudrest, if you are stam you just get kicked or uninvited to raids.

Heartrage · July 2022

Insta kills are fine in Eso. They always have mechanics to block them. Healing abilities are also very strong and tanks are almost unkillable. Everyone can also rez during combat and do so fairly quickly and you can rez Where you die without much penalty. Without mechanics that can insta kill, difficulty in Eso would just be gone. Eso doesn’t have to be the most difficult game but it would dumb down eso into being unfun.

Amottica · July 2022

Most players I’ve seen due to one-shot mechs were oblivion to what was happening beyond figuring out what button to press next. They had zero area awareness and failed to learn from their previous deaths as they kept dying to the same thing over and over even though it was telegraphed well in advance.

I have even seen players just stand their dealing damage, or pretending to deal damage, while an NPC was winding up a heavy and wouldn’t bother to block or move.

This and low dps are the reasons I refuse to queue solo as I get a much better experience running guild mates.

Riptide · July 2022

- There's a difference btw vma last boss and the curse that is vetshran hollows last boss. Only reason many even did that one is because they used teleport skills.

*chuckle, this sounds like a lot of strange disdain some folks affect for meta, which has been turned into a swear word. It, as I am sure you know, means “most effective tactic available”, which seems to really bring out some kind of irrational anger in people. This is one of those - multiple classes have the ability to teleport. Want to do vet vateshran in hard mode? Awesome, run one of the classes without it.

Want to get it done and farm the rascal for what you need and be done with it? Great, use one of those classes that do. Leveling one if you don’t have it takes a trivial amount of time, particularly with all the scrolls they throw at us - and your CP is account wide. It isn’t some kind of shakespearian tragedy, you know? And afterword you have a strong alt, win win.

Another example is cloudrest, if you are stam you just get kicked or uninvited to raids

Come on now. And even if that were true, you know, you could keep a pocket mag toon for running cloudrest - the earth’s crust won’t crack an open an abyss.

I mean, folks who stubbornly play one way and only one way and obstinately refuse to adjust to the situation saying that mechanics are overbearing are making a choice. And more power to them, great.

But to make the game anemic for all the folks who find no problem with being light on their feet and approaching each challenge on its terms to cater to that narrow sort of approach, do you at all see why that is unreasonable? If the challenges exist, you have the option to tackle them in off meta, tackle them in meta, or forgo them.

If the challenges don’t exist we only have the option to leave.

Do you really think that is comparable?

francesinhalover · July 2022

Riptide wrote: »

- There's a difference btw vma last boss and the curse that is vetshran hollows last boss. Only reason many even did that one is because they used teleport skills.

*chuckle, this sounds like a lot of strange disdain some folks affect for meta, which has been turned into a swear word. It, as I am sure you know, means “most effective tactic available”, which seems to really bring out some kind of irrational anger in people. This is one of those - multiple classes have the ability to teleport. Want to do vet vateshran in hard mode? Awesome, run one of the classes without it.

Want to get it done and farm the rascal for what you need and be done with it? Great, use one of those classes that do. Leveling one if you don’t have it takes a trivial amount of time, particularly with all the scrolls they throw at us - and your CP is account wide. It isn’t some kind of shakespearian tragedy, you know? And afterword you have a strong alt, win win.

Another example is cloudrest, if you are stam you just get kicked or uninvited to raids

Come on now. And even if that were true, you know, you could keep a pocket mag toon for running cloudrest - the earth’s crust won’t crack an open an abyss.

I mean, folks who stubbornly play one way and only one way and obstinately refuse to adjust to the situation saying that mechanics are overbearing are making a choice. And more power to them, great.

But to make the game anemic for all the folks who find no problem with being light on their feet and approaching each challenge on its terms to cater to that narrow sort of approach, do you at all see why that is unreasonable? If the challenges exist, you have the option to tackle them in off meta, tackle them in meta, or forgo them.

If the challenges don’t exist we only have the option to leave.

Do you really think that is comparable?

Oh so what you are saying is, i should take , around 10-20 hours of my life, to lvl up a new alt that is magicka, learn how to play magicka, and if there's no tp skill like the teleport from sorcerer, create another mag char, waste 10-20 hours lvling it up and than learn it to do the content, all of this during a eso plus free trial, because the game wont let me play with a close ranged class.
alright awesome.

Riptide · July 2022

I don’t know what else to say but to listen to yourself, mate.

Snow_White · July 2022

Alchemical wrote: »

A nerf to a bug that is prohibitively difficult for new (or disabled) players to master isn't going to keep casuals out of trials, the weird attitude that you NEED to have ludicrous DPS does. Elitism and an unwillingness to uplift people of a 'lower' skill level by teaching them mechanics correctly instead of demanding faceroll DPS in hopes to skip boss mechanics is the actual problem.

Agreed.

I’m not even sure where these super high requirements come from. Most guilds I’m with have a loose requirement for around 60k to do vDLC trials, and are clearing HM content with players in the 80-120k range (meaning we’re not kicking players who are only doing 80k).

IMO, once you’re above the 80k mark your ability to do mechanics is worth more than an extra 20k DPS (outside of speed strats).

The exception being vRG/vDSR HM, which are designed around elite DPS.

SirLeeMinion wrote: »

I'm involved in quite a few guilds across NA and EU. Judging by responses to "lfm vet [insert DLC dungeon]" very few people even want to attempt high-end content. Nerfing DPS across the board won't help this.

Most vDLC dungeons aren’t worth doing more than once or twice. The only reward is the helmet (and maybe a skin), and once I have it there’s little reason to do it again (unless I’m helping someone farm the helmet).

Tommy_The_Gun · July 2022

francesinhalover wrote: »

The issue is Casuals that aren't even reaching those numbers, can't even Join trials because if you don't do 100k you are ignored. And doing those 100k just keeps getting harder.

That is only part of the problem. The issue is that progression guilds are kinda already established, and they have people in their guilds to pick when they are doing Trial runs. And for the most part, they are not accepting newcomers, as they obviously will have inferior skill level, lower DPS & knowladge about the mechanics.

So, for the most part, there is no reasonable way to reliably start doing end-game PvE. And everyone has to start somewhere. People stick to dungeons and occasionality they do vet DLC dungeons, because this is what they can do reliably. Open group finder and *poof* - MM finds you a team (or you wait 2 - 5 minutes if you pick DPS role).

For everything else - if you just want to try out new content - you don't have big chances. Even if you try to play "LFG" chat mini-game, chances are, if you never did the content & won't link an achievement in chat - then you are not going to be picked.

I really don't want to use the word "elitism" - but this is kinda like it looks like. It is not even about skill level & how fast one can press buttons & animation cancel. For new players, there is simply no way to reliably do end-game content over & over, just to learn the mechanics. Sure, I can enter the Trial solo, but.... is it really the 1st thing that a new player who is interested in doing content should go through ?

Some kind of group finder support for trials & arenas (even for normal mode) could change that, so people could start doing the content. But whenever this idea is even mentioned - it works like a red rag to a bull for some people.... and I just don't understand why

francesinhalover · July 2022

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

francesinhalover wrote: »

The issue is Casuals that aren't even reaching those numbers, can't even Join trials because if you don't do 100k you are ignored. And doing those 100k just keeps getting harder.

That is only part of the problem. The issue is that progression guilds are kinda already established, and they have people in their guilds to pick when they are doing Trial runs. And for the most part, they are not accepting newcomers, as they obviously will have inferior skill level, lower DPS & knowladge about the mechanics.

So, for the most part, there is no reasonable way to reliably start doing end-game PvE. And everyone has to start somewhere. People stick to dungeons and occasionality they do vet DLC dungeons, because this is what they can do reliably. Open group finder and *poof* - MM finds you a team (or you wait 2 - 5 minutes if you pick DPS role).

For everything else - if you just want to try out new content - you don't have big chances. Even if you try to play "LFG" chat mini-game, chances are, if you never did the content & won't link an achievement in chat - then you are not going to be picked.

I really don't want to use the word "elitism" - but this is kinda like it looks like. It is not even about skill level & how fast one can press buttons & animation cancel. For new players, there is simply no way to reliably do end-game content over & over, just to learn the mechanics. Sure, I can enter the Trial solo, but.... is it really the 1st thing that a new player who is interested in doing content should go through ?

Some kind of group finder support for trials & arenas (even for normal mode) could change that, so people could start doing the content. But whenever this idea is even mentioned - it works like a red rag to a bull for some people.... and I just don't understand why

Even on normal trials have mechs and insta kills, but id love a group finder, I guess at this point maybe eso should get a dark souls tag on it's game description, because that's what endgame is, but with extra steps.

Riptide · July 2022

I think a group finder for normal trials be perfectly fine, those are generally pretty easy.

I just haven’t seen this brick wall for new players getting into prog groups. I have personally shepherded countless players through their first vet trial, and others in this thread have intimated similar. I’ve never asked for nor been asked for these astronomical numbers, refuse certain classes etc. I’m on PSN NA and while there are some of those groups about, there are plenty of outfits wanting to genuinely progress.

And since this is what I have seen with my own eyes and experienced first hand for years of playing, I have to give the benefit of the doubt that people posting the reverse aren’t engaging in hyperbole and/or simply talking about the first handful of guilds they find - or mostly talking about PUGs.

Which I do, but like I say my experience is the opposite. I mean prog teams are always subject to attrition, and unless it is some huge guild lots of groups will take just about anyone with a positive attitude willing to adjust and work as a team. Heck, many a time I’ve settled for the positive attitude