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There is a skill gap, yes. But more importantly: there is a knowledge gap!
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vesselwiththepestle✭✭✭✭✭
✭The solo role-playing game Kingdom Come Deliverance has training partners/teachers in the game. You can learn how to use the weapons and actually train as a player. Something like that should be added to ESO. A training dummy, which actually fights back and teaches you to block, roll dodge, light attack weave etc.1000+ CP
PC/EU Ravenwatch Daggerfall Covenant
Give me my wings back!4 -
Deter1UK✭✭✭✭✭Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »I think that instead of punishing good players for being um... good, they should do something that will very gently encourage um "low-end" players (not force them), just passively encourage them to improve.
And the reason why majority of players are not improving is that.... they don't need to. All they do is overland and group dungeons, and maybe some DLC group dungeons. For that, low DPS is um "good enough" to complete the content.
Majority of players don't even touch Trials because of a hassle it requires.
^ I simply think that for many players, It is simply too big of a barrier.
And the fact that (for me) the couple of trials I attemped were stress inducing anxiety ridden nightmares that were no fun whatsoever. I don't need that level of pain thanks.
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Sync01✭✭✭✭And the fact that (for me) the couple of trials I attemped were stress inducing anxiety ridden nightmares that were no fun whatsoever. I don't need that level of pain thanks.
Trials can be very overwhelming when you first start out, and unfortunately I think a lot of people get put off because they end up with groups that aren't friendly to beginners and it simply isn't fun to have no idea what's going on while getting yelled at. What about your experience made it stressful for you?2 -
endgamesmug✭✭✭✭Im a very competent player but prefer the personal experience of running with 3 others in a dungeon thats my thing. Occasionally ill do some crag pugs for gear i might want out of normal trials, the content itself doesnt interest me in the least unfortunately. After i get my gear i just go back to whatever i was doing before. I watch the occasional stream on twitch of people raiding in vet trials, i really honestly feel like im not missing out on anything. But i should mention i do appreciate that others are over the moon with that type of activity 😀0
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EdmondDontes✭✭✭✭✭
✭I'm really nervous about this change. This could hit PvP players really hard. And all in all it seems like ZOS is moving the game toward being a much more vanilla game for casuals rather than skilled players that have spent years refining their builds and rotations.2 -
TaSheen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MorganaLaVey wrote: »So if you say learning how to run dungeons/ raids "is not what I want to be wasting spending my gaming time on."
Than i hope you also say doing dungeons/ raids "is not what I want to be wasting spending my gaming time on."
I do say that, yes. I thought that was clear. Nowhere in my post did I list dungeons and raids among activities I prioritize.
There seems to be an assumption that there are a bunch of incompetent players who want to do dungeons and raids and have an easy button or rely on everyone else to pull them through. Maybe that's true with PUGs. Couldn't tell you because I've never run with one. Dungeons are way, way down my priority list and the rare time I do one, I do it solo (just the easy normal ones).
I won't touch dungeons or trials at all. Not anything I need from any of them, and NOT my idea of fun.______________________________________________________
"But even in books, the heroes make mistakes, and there isn't always a happy ending." Mercedes Lackey, Into the West
PC NA, PC EU (non steam)- four accounts, many alts....2 -
DairyCat✭✭✭Someone on the ESO reddit showed that you can get 91K DPS without light attacking at all: https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/vubx9c/no_la_91k/
Weaving ability is not the reason why someone's 30K DPS character is being gated from doing Vet Trials.9 -
hrothbern✭✭✭✭✭
✭If only 1% of all the posts on how things are to be improved would be used for describing actual math and combat mechanics
It would be much easier for, not only, new players to improve their insight and level of playing.
Much info on the most basic info like tooltip abilities at web sites not actualised is also not exactly helpful
like the continuous tweaking of ZOS that goes back and forth and so far does not converge to stability."I still do not understand why I followed the advice of Captain Rana to bring the villagers of Bleakrock into safety. We should have fought for our village and not have backed down, with our tail between our legs. Now my home village is in shambles, the houses burning, the invaders feasting.I swear every day to Shor that after Molag Bal has been defeated, I will hunt down the invaders and restore peace in Bleakrock and drink my mead with my friends at the market place".PC-EU3 -
FlopsyPrince✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭EdmondDontes wrote: »I'm really nervous about this change. This could hit PvP players really hard. And all in all it seems like ZOS is moving the game toward being a much more vanilla game for casuals rather than skilled players that have spent years refining their builds and rotations.
Casuals are most of the players.
That doesn't mean they shouldn't have things to draw those who get into it more of course, but don't denigrate the casuals since they are the ones who pay the bulk of the costs to get you the content you want.PC
PS4/PS512 -
Zodiarkslayer✭✭✭✭✭
✭Reading the subtext of some of the comments here has me worried a little. The last thing I wanted to do is incite discontent.
To create some perspective for all, I'd like to post an observation. Player in ESO can be classified along two lines, scaling from high to low.- Efforts to improve oneself
- Amount of time invested
Now combining that, we get four types of players. Not just the stereotypical two, casuals and endgamers, like popular believe would dictate. That is one thing to take away from this discussion.
The problem is, that the motivation behind the decision to make high or low effort to improve or to invest a lot or minimal time is something deeply personal. And it should not be judged or speculated about, by others.
Take me for example.
Last month I broke 3000 hours of play time. When I started out, I played a lot, because both my work and my wife allowed it. I loved it and I had a lot of fun. I tried to constantly get better and improve my knowledge about the game. I also practised a lot of rotations and weaving.
Now that we have two kids, that is just not a thing anymore. Two kids need a lot of care and I have to step up. I need to take responsability. ANd I love it, too. That is just it.
This is also the reason why I do not engage in any activity, that would require effort and commitment, anymore. But I still can engage with the community and my guilds, if I coordinate well. I made friends playing this game. I am certainly not stopping.
I would personally feel really bad, if the game is balanced around players like me.
I don't want that. I am leisurely playing and enjoying ESO's less challenging content, now. But that does not mean, that the players, who enjoy a challenge be taken away the opportunity to do so.No Effort, No Reward?
No Reward, No Effort!8 -
PrimusTiberius✭✭✭✭Its just another nerf because players are complaining content is too easy......too bad ZOS can't nerf some of the RNG in this game
Everyone is going in one direction, I'm going the other direction2 -
SilverBride✭✭✭✭✭
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That is because it is how many of us feel. Spending countless hours farming gear, reading guides, watching YouTube videos to get gud is not my idea of relaxing. Doing these things does feel like a job.
I was an avid raider in a few other MMOs but all I want to do now is relax and have fun. That is why I don't do it any more.PCNA7 -
JustAGoodPlayer✭✭✭✭I do not think that is really skill or knowledge gap. A lot of players play like they want - if game do not let their favorite class or weapon work like they want or if they like some thing - they will use it.
In current patch Sorc has about 140 k DPS ? Whyle i did not see dk with more than 120k pars?
Is a skill or knowledge gap in that players - no. They like class and they would play it no matter what or leave the game if it would be to unbalanced. I do not see a big skill gap between player who use HA / LA attacks or not use any - but damage difference is too big.
Yes players who will not exit ground AOE die any way as example - but in doing damage - it is no big skill/knowledge gap.
You just press skills one after another - like 1-2-3-4-5 or 1-la-2-la-3-la-4-la-5-la or 1-ha-2-ha-3-ha-4-ha-5-ha
In a lot of games you need nott press LA yourself - character do it automatically.
LA players think about themselves as about some Elit group of players for a long period of time and desrespect other players.
I see nothing special in it. Not really a big skill or knowledge gap.
You only do not need to reaply the same dots that is not end yet and pres 1 button after another in correct build )))
Not all players have gear - yes may be.
Some of them may be even do not read skills - but they use it because they like animation.
So ... TESO is not some hardcore game - players play it for fun. That is all.0 -
Marto✭✭✭✭✭
✭I really doubt adding more tutorials or teaching people how to Light Attack weave is going to solve anything.
The overwhelmingly majority of players that bounce off ESO do so because they find the combat to be ugly, clunky, and unintuitive.
Bombard new players with intricate and detailed tutorials on how to make their combat look even more ugly, clunky, and unintuitive, and you'll only make them quit faster."According to the calculations of the sages of the Cult of the Ancestor Moth, the batam guar is the cutest creature in all Tamriel"6 -
Troodon80✭✭✭✭✭
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The interesting thing is, a lot of people stick around because the combat is fun, fluid, and fast paced. With these two completely conflicting trains of thought, how is ZOS ever going to "balance" the combat?I really doubt adding more tutorials or teaching people how to Light Attack weave is going to solve anything.
The overwhelmingly majority of players that bounce off ESO do so because they find the combat to be ugly, clunky, and unintuitive.
Bombard new players with intricate and detailed tutorials on how to make their combat look even more ugly, clunky, and unintuitive, and you'll only make them quit faster.
@Troodon80 PC | EU
Guild: N&S
Hand of Alkosh | Dawnbringer | Immortal Redeemer | Tick Tock Tormentor | Gryphon Heart
Deep Dive into Dreadsail Reef Mechanics6 -
Jpk0012✭✭✭✭If you can't learn the mechanics do the devs adjust the mechanics or do they say tough luck? Why are players being nerfed, because new players are acting like new players? If a 43 year old can LA weave in combat, anyone can. Its not hard. Its just pressing buttons. No one is asking you to lift 500 lbs or even 10lbs. Your task is to hit a button.
Its one thing to say damage and resistance caps in PVP are out of whack, and run off players. Its another to say PvE dps runs off new players. That doesn't even make sense.Edited by Jpk0012 on July 10, 2022 9:08PM2 -
Cadbury✭✭✭✭✭
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The interesting thing is, a lot of people stick around because the combat is fun, fluid, and fast paced. With these two completely conflicting trains of thought, how is ZOS ever going to "balance" the combat?I really doubt adding more tutorials or teaching people how to Light Attack weave is going to solve anything.
The overwhelmingly majority of players that bounce off ESO do so because they find the combat to be ugly, clunky, and unintuitive.
Bombard new players with intricate and detailed tutorials on how to make their combat look even more ugly, clunky, and unintuitive, and you'll only make them quit faster.
That's the best part. They won't
There will always be changes, and something will always be OP or under-performing. Such is the way of life."If a person is truly desirous of something, perhaps being set on fire does not seem so bad."2 -
SimonThesis✭✭✭✭✭
✭People only learn how to really play the game once they join guilds. I completely agree there is a serious knowledge gap that is only taught by the community. Even public streamer builds and guides usually arent as good as the ones given in specialized guilds.
There is nothing in the game that teaches you all the things you learn from joining a guild. The game doesn't explain combat, recommend actually meta skills/sets, and it doesn't explain how to weave. All things you learn from guilds and on top of that they teach how to theorycraft so you can make really good builds yourself.Edited by SimonThesis on July 10, 2022 9:35PM3 -
EdmondDontes✭✭✭✭✭
✭FlopsyPrince wrote: »EdmondDontes wrote: »I'm really nervous about this change. This could hit PvP players really hard. And all in all it seems like ZOS is moving the game toward being a much more vanilla game for casuals rather than skilled players that have spent years refining their builds and rotations.
Casuals are most of the players.
That doesn't mean they shouldn't have things to draw those who get into it more of course, but don't denigrate the casuals since they are the ones who pay the bulk of the costs to get you the content you want.
There are no casual players that have spent thousands of dollars on this game. Most casual players don't even pay the $15/month ESO+ sub.
It's a myth and a factual inaccuracy to claim casual players support ESO in any capacity what so ever. Sure, you see them dominating this forum, but they don't dominate spending or any other aspect of ESO.7 -
TaSheen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Eh, I'm edging up on $2500 US since I started playing - and I'm as casual as they come. I spend hours in game but I don't really DO much! I don't like combat, so I mess with crafting and housing and quests where I don't have to try (with 999+ ping) killing any more than a couple of mobs.______________________________________________________
"But even in books, the heroes make mistakes, and there isn't always a happy ending." Mercedes Lackey, Into the West
PC NA, PC EU (non steam)- four accounts, many alts....0 -
Jpk0012✭✭✭✭Eh, I'm edging up on $2500 US since I started playing - and I'm as casual as they come. I spend hours in game but I don't really DO much! I don't like combat, so I mess with crafting and housing and quests where I don't have to try (with 999+ ping) killing any more than a couple of mobs.
You aren't casual... You just don't like combat and that is OK.8 -
EdmondDontes✭✭✭✭✭
✭Eh, I'm edging up on $2500 US since I started playing - and I'm as casual as they come. I spend hours in game but I don't really DO much! I don't like combat, so I mess with crafting and housing and quests where I don't have to try (with 999+ ping) killing any more than a couple of mobs.
You aren't casual... You just don't like combat and that is OK.
IF it's true they've spent that kind of money, they aren't casual players.5 -
Tandor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭EdmondDontes wrote: »Eh, I'm edging up on $2500 US since I started playing - and I'm as casual as they come. I spend hours in game but I don't really DO much! I don't like combat, so I mess with crafting and housing and quests where I don't have to try (with 999+ ping) killing any more than a couple of mobs.
You aren't casual... You just don't like combat and that is OK.
IF it's true they've spent that kind of money, they aren't casual players.
It sounds like there needs to be a commonly accepted definition of "casual", which there isn't. Some use it to distinguish those who play an hour or two per week, others use it to distinguish those who aren't "elite" or "hardcore" in relation to the content they undertake. There's no point debating the contribution of "casual players" if there's no clear agreement on what a "casual player" actually is.12 -
TaSheen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭EdmondDontes wrote: »Eh, I'm edging up on $2500 US since I started playing - and I'm as casual as they come. I spend hours in game but I don't really DO much! I don't like combat, so I mess with crafting and housing and quests where I don't have to try (with 999+ ping) killing any more than a couple of mobs.
You aren't casual... You just don't like combat and that is OK.
IF it's true they've spent that kind of money, they aren't casual players.
It sounds like there needs to be a commonly accepted definition of "casual", which there isn't. Some use it to distinguish those who play an hour or two per week, others use it to distinguish those who aren't "elite" or "hardcore" in relation to the content they undertake. There's no point debating the contribution of "casual players" if there's no clear agreement on what a "casual player" actually is.
True. I consider myself a casual in ESO, BECAUSE I'm not any longer interested in hardcore raiding - or even dungeons. I will do delves some, but not really that often. After WoW (and to a lesser extent in Rift) when I raided 4 nights a week for several years - well.... there's the "burnout" word for a reason.______________________________________________________
"But even in books, the heroes make mistakes, and there isn't always a happy ending." Mercedes Lackey, Into the West
PC NA, PC EU (non steam)- four accounts, many alts....2 -
Troodon80✭✭✭✭✭
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I don't think anyone but ZOS could accurately say how much anyone has spent. But I do think it's fair to say that the casual base is likely the largest portion of the revenue. On all platforms, you can generally see who is in end game (I'm not distinguishing between PvE or PvP here, either). On PC, you can take a look at most Discord servers and see the same names. From mid-tier all the way up to score-pushing guilds, the end game scene is incredibly small. Not 50-100 small, but small enough to generally recognise the same names and guilds popping up all the time.EdmondDontes wrote: »There are no casual players that have spent thousands of dollars on this game. Most casual players don't even pay the $15/month ESO+ sub.
It's a myth and a factual inaccuracy to claim casual players support ESO in any capacity what so ever. Sure, you see them dominating this forum, but they don't dominate spending or any other aspect of ESO.
If it's even 1%, I would be surprised. That would be 190k players in end game. If all of those 190k players spent £$€20k over the life of the game so far, it would be in the region of (edging close to) 4 billion. If even half of the casual player base spent this:
You would be looking at somewhere around 23 billion, and that's eliminating half of the accounts ZOS says they have. Which those other accounts would likely be spending something, no matter how minute it is. Even if the average wasn't 2500, but closer to only £$€500, it would still be more than the 20k contributed by the 190k end game players.Eh, I'm edging up on $2500 US since I started playing - and I'm as casual as they come. I spend hours in game but I don't really DO much! I don't like combat, so I mess with crafting and housing and quests where I don't have to try (with 999+ ping) killing any more than a couple of mobs.
And I know quite a few end game players who are not buying new chapters and not using subscriptions. So the number that end game players are spending as an average is vague at best.
But that's all purely guesswork because we don't have any of those numbers. I think the argument of how much money is invested on either side is an argument doomed to failure.
@Troodon80 PC | EU
Guild: N&S
Hand of Alkosh | Dawnbringer | Immortal Redeemer | Tick Tock Tormentor | Gryphon Heart
Deep Dive into Dreadsail Reef Mechanics5 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭EdmondDontes wrote: »Eh, I'm edging up on $2500 US since I started playing - and I'm as casual as they come. I spend hours in game but I don't really DO much! I don't like combat, so I mess with crafting and housing and quests where I don't have to try (with 999+ ping) killing any more than a couple of mobs.
You aren't casual... You just don't like combat and that is OK.
IF it's true they've spent that kind of money, they aren't casual players.
Casual isn't defined by dollar amount but by how often they play and the types of activities they do.3 -
TaSheen✭✭✭✭✭
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But that's all purely guesswork because we don't have any of those numbers. I think the argument of how much money is invested on either side is an argument doomed to failure.
All too true. None of the games I've played have ever posted "real numbers" for anything really.
______________________________________________________
"But even in books, the heroes make mistakes, and there isn't always a happy ending." Mercedes Lackey, Into the West
PC NA, PC EU (non steam)- four accounts, many alts....1 -
Anyron✭✭✭✭✭
✭There is skill gap only because overland is too easy.. Players are fine in overland and when they first try vet dungeon its devastating to them and some are discouraged to even try againEdited by Anyron on July 10, 2022 10:38PM2 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭There is skill gap only because overland is too easy.. Players are fine in overland and when they first try vet dungeon its devastating to them and some are discouraged to even try again
No. Most quests in MMO don't prepare people for raiding and hard dungeons. Low level versions of those things do. In ESO, the equivalent to that is normal dungeons and trials.2 -
FischyJones✭✭✭EdmondDontes wrote: »I'm really nervous about this change. This could hit PvP players really hard. And all in all it seems like ZOS is moving the game toward being a much more vanilla game for casuals rather than skilled players that have spent years refining their builds and rotations.
And thats a good thing. A thing the "more skilled" crowed tends to foget is that they are a vocal minority. The gaming market is getting broader and broader, and to keep a game alive you need fresh blood.
Fresh blood wont like being called "toxic" casuals.9