Why Loot Boxes ARE an issue
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Amottica✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »@jaws343
The game is rated for M (17+). Most casinos you must be 21 or older in order to gamble at their establishment.
The game has gambling so instead it should be labeled Ao along with the warring of gambling being present. If this hurts the games population, then that tells us just how much loot boxes do not belong in a fantasy MMORPG.
@Lostar
The minimum age requirement in most states for buying lottery tickets and participating in parimutuel betting is 18 in most states.
https://www.casino.org/local/guide/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK230619/
While most players do not like loot crates, including many who buy the crates (even though some clamor for them), they pay the bills. If Zenimax eliminated crates they would have to get more revenue from someplace such as increasing the cost of DLCs and ESO+ as well as charging significantly more for everything in the cash shop.
This is reality speaking here yet I do not see people complaining about the crown crates suggestions they are willing to pay double what they pay now if crates disappear. Since many already complain about the cost of mounts, outfit/armory slot, et all, this is unlikely to be a path Zenimax attempts willingly. If they are forced to cease selling crates it WILL be replaced and likely by something we might like a lot less.
Or something we like a lot more. Who can tell. It's all hypothetical. I would like ZOS to look at Sea of Thieves and see how they do battle passes, tie them into ESO+, take out the daily login rewards (that's just another tool to build "Habit" in the Hook>Habit>Hobby methodology) and instead offer them inside the season pass as the "free base version" of the season pass (as Sea of Thieves) and perhaps a middle tier that comes with ESO+ for the season that gives you slightly better rewards (the middle tier rewards from loot crate) and then the Apex tier is $5 for that season and that gives you the shinies throughout that season.
Check out how Sea of Thieves does it to get a feel for what I am talking about. Sea of Thieves isn't for everyone, I know.. but monetization doesn't determine the quality of a game or the interest in playing it (well, at least, it shouldn't).
Yes, it is hypothetical. However, if Zenimax, or any of these companies that run these GaaS we like to play found a way to get the same amount of revenue via a means we like more they would already be doing it. This includes finding more to add to ESO+ Oh, and Hook > Habbit methodology is the core to success for a GaaS. It is why we have family writs, daily login rewards, etc. This industry is very well aware of it and thrives on it.
That is not hypothetical. It is reality.
Businesses tend to innovate when sales are poor or there is a lot of competition or when they reliant on it, not when things are going well. So no, they would not. They ARE brainstorming new ways to monetize and succeeding at it though in response to the legislative uncertainty. Despite the assertion that it's not hypothetical they'd already have innovated if they could, that absolutely remains to be seen. And is highly likely to be untrue given the success of battle passes.
Battle Pass is essentially a subscription to gain more rewards from playing Fortnite.
Battlepasses are not a sub, nor are they limited to Fortnite. Plenty of them are just spending hooks to earn cosmetics through play or cash. It would be very easy for ESO to offer radiant apexes in this manner.
The Fortnite Battle Royal Battle Pass is a paid subscription, a premium service that is not necessary to play Fortnite, as it is a free-to-play game.
Also, taking into consideration the average cost of getting a radiant apex mount then the cost of such a battle pass would be rather significant and make the cost of ESO+ look like pocket change.
It would probably work better if they just outright sold the Radiant Apex mounts for a few hundred dollars worth of crowns.
In reality, the battle pass would just be another gimmick. Post things to the crown store straight up. Not sure why that is such an objection. If it cost more than someone can afford then that is just life, truly.
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Haywire30✭✭✭Can confirm that here in the UK, they've been looking into the legality surrounding lootboxes. You can see the (in)famous DCMS Committee meeting with representatives from EA and Epic Games about lootboxes. It's a VERY long watch, but also highly informative.
https://parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/0bf5f000-036e-4cee-be8e-c43c4a0879d4
It's also worth mentioning that the representatives involved got an absolute grilling and kept trying to dodge around the morality of lootboxes.The section including the infamous "surprise mechanics" phrase is found here...
https://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/0bf5f000-036e-4cee-be8e-c43c4a0879d4?in=15:43:13
For myself, I am cynical enough to believe that lootboxes will stay for as long as they are profitable. If we cannot get rid of them wholesale, I completely feel that they are classified as gambling and that they need to be regulated by the governments appropriately.
Just because it isn't legally classified as gambling YET doesn't mean that agencies or legal experts completely believe them to not be gambling. The law is infamously behind the technological curve. The fact that various countries' investigations are looking into it shows that, at the very least, there is a very firm belief that the laws might need updating to account for them.7 -
kargen27✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭FlopsyPrince wrote: »RisenEclipse wrote: »I'm just going to add my two cents here. But legally loot boxes are not gambling. It's why many games implement them. They don't require a license to implement them, and they're a cash cow.
However I disagree with having them in the game. Personally I'd rather go to the crown store and buy a 5000 crown mount then pay for a 12 pack of crown crates and MAYBE get something good... and with my current rng luck, me getting anything good is unlikely LOL I find them irritating and annoying tbh. I'd be much happier just buying those same items in the store. So really I could do without them all together.
Your legal assertion is questionable. They may not have been ruled as such yet, but you most certainly do "gamble" to get the better prizes!
No the legal assertion is spot on. They are not illegal. Could they be in the future? Maybe. As of right now though they do not fall under the legal definition of gambling and are not considered gambling. It isn't even a gray area legally. Gambling is heavily regulated and controlled in the United States. The penalties for breaking gambling laws can be severe.
You can't judge things by possible future rulings. You judge things by the laws we have now and how those laws are applied. Again they might be problematic to people with personality traits that lead towards addiction and they might be predatory (I don't believe so) but they are not gambling. Others are correct that the laws are still playing catch-up on a lot of this so we will have to wait and see where the law comes down. Personally I don't think you create a law that denies rights of the many or punishes the many to protect the few. In other words my way of thinking is we need to be responsible for ourselves those around us and as much as possible government should stay out of the way.and then the parrot said, "must be the water mines green too."1 -
Haywire30✭✭✭As an addition... as and when the accurate odds are provided by Zenimax, I think it would be a nice idea to have an ongoing forum thread (With a helpfully linked currency converter) that shows how much money someone can expect to spend, on average, to get something from each tier of rewards based on the Crown costs for the three different crate packs.
E.g.
Radiant
15-Crate Average Price = x
4-Crate Average Price = x
1-Crate Average Price = x
etc for each additional tier.
Seeing the actual average monetary cost should prove rather telling, no?1 -
rootkitronin✭✭✭✭✭
No the legal assertion is spot on. They are not illegal. Could they be in the future? Maybe. As of right now though they do not fall under the legal definition of gambling and are not considered gambling. It isn't even a gray area legally. Gambling is heavily regulated and controlled in the United States. The penalties for breaking gambling laws can be severe.
You can't judge things by possible future rulings. You judge things by the laws we have now and how those laws are applied. Again they might be problematic to people with personality traits that lead towards addiction and they might be predatory (I don't believe so) but they are not gambling. Others are correct that the laws are still playing catch-up on a lot of this so we will have to wait and see where the law comes down. Personally I don't think you create a law that denies rights of the many or punishes the many to protect the few. In other words my way of thinking is we need to be responsible for ourselves those around us and as much as possible government should stay out of the way.
You do realize that these would not be laws against consumers, but rather ones against multi-billion dollar companies - which you seem to be very adamantly defending.
Always strikes me as strange when people see an attack on loot crates as an attack on them and their freedoms. Even if loot crates were to be banned, there's nothing is stopping you from giving money to ZOS or just flushing it down the toilet if that's what you really want to do.
Just out of curiosity though - what rights would you be denied here (or the many as you put it)? The right to buy loot crates? Last I checked, that's not a right, and there are many many laws regulating what you can or can't buy already.
There are also many laws that affect a majority in order to protect a minority - that's nothing new.
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hafjoldr✭✭✭I'm not arguing that crates might not be a problem for people with a personality that lends towards addictions. They certainly can be addictive. They are not gambling.
I don't feel they need be restricted to all because the actions of the few. Again that responsible adult thing.
How about adults who are atypical? You know, they exist right? Like Autistic adults? Adults who do not have the prowess to navigate the world with such ease. And yet, there are other predatory practices like scamming grandma because she doesn't know Microsoft wouldn't have any interest in her Google Play Gift Cards, and no one has an issue shunning those scammers?? Grandpa has been around for years.. he should know better, right??! How about them? You know... you're right.. we shouldn't bubble wrap society.. BUT WE SHOULD ban practices that were CONSTRUCTED from the ground up to be PREDATORY. Watch the video I posted. It is exactly what Zenimax Online Studios has been doing. Watch it.. and THEN tell me what you really think.
To the quoted person:
You know, as someone who does, in fact, suffer from Autism, I would really like it if you used another example. I have a part of my money set aside for an entertainment-only budget and I will spend it however I wish, within the boundaries of the law. if it runs out, so be it. That's why I use a budget. I can't speak for people with other issues, but Autism isn't just an excuse. It's a real problem for those of us who have suffered and keep suffering from it.
To everyone:
Also, I don't believe politicians are even capable of handling such a law properly. If history has anything to say about it, just check out how many products are plainly prohibited in the EU as opposed to regulated to allow research and proper use. rather than misuse. You need only take a glance at such a list to notice there are quite a few of the former.
Sadly, predatory practices are all about creativity. Weird, am I right? But yeah, predators get creative, a government forbids that practice, then a new one comes up. Rinse and repeat. So what exactly do people get when something is prohibited? Less of the same and another, newer predator to prohibit. Nothing more, but a lot less. I don't care for loot crates and wouldn't mind to see their contents become part of the playable, earnable, game rewards. But something is definitely wrong with the typical cycle (and ban mentality) I mentioned on the 2nd or 3rd line of this paragraph. By the way English is not my native language, which is why I'm not sure which line it is. Punctuation and all that.
As for the problem posed in this thread, no idea about gambling but crates are based on a pseudo-random number generator, which I believe may have been chosen for its tendency towards low end rewards, and most likely runs on the server to prevent client-side "mishaps". Are they gambling? I'm not the expert. But then again, I just posted here to request the above and state the fact about pseudo-RNG and my suspicion regarding the software handling it. Either way, the person I quoted did give a good definition. And as far as I see it, the math exists for an average amount of gems per crate to be expected. Since gems guarantee a reward, it would just be a matter of transparency and this could all be solved. Not that I expect ZOS to reveal the numbers, mind you.
TL;DR:
1. Please don't use us Autistic adults as an excuse.
2. Governments won't handle it properly as things stand now.
3. Bans have never fixed greed, and never will. New solution required.
4. Paragraph about RNG.
Edited to specify whom each message is for and to correct grammar. Also to remove a rather problematic, rhetorical question of my own.Edited by hafjoldr on June 28, 2022 5:37AMNord Race Representative'Cause Rigurt deserves a holiday2 -
Lostar✭✭✭✭I'm not arguing that crates might not be a problem for people with a personality that lends towards addictions. They certainly can be addictive. They are not gambling.
I don't feel they need be restricted to all because the actions of the few. Again that responsible adult thing.
How about adults who are atypical? You know, they exist right? Like Autistic adults? Adults who do not have the prowess to navigate the world with such ease. And yet, there are other predatory practices like scamming grandma because she doesn't know Microsoft wouldn't have any interest in her Google Play Gift Cards, and no one has an issue shunning those scammers?? Grandpa has been around for years.. he should know better, right??! How about them? You know... you're right.. we shouldn't bubble wrap society.. BUT WE SHOULD ban practices that were CONSTRUCTED from the ground up to be PREDATORY. Watch the video I posted. It is exactly what Zenimax Online Studios has been doing. Watch it.. and THEN tell me what you really think.
To the quoted person:
You know, as someone who does, in fact, suffer from Autism, I would really like it if you used another example. I have a part of my money set aside for an entertainment-only budget and I will spend it however I wish, within the boundaries of the law. if it runs out, so be it. That's why I use a budget. I can't speak for people with other issues, but Autism isn't just an excuse. It's a real problem for those of us who have suffered and keep suffering from it.
[snip]
I use the term because it fits to me in a very personal manner that will not be openly discussed on these forums. I've not implied Autism is an excuse but as it pertains to my own personal experiences and circumstances and concerns.
Edited by Lostar on June 28, 2022 5:45AM0 -
hafjoldr✭✭✭I'm not arguing that crates might not be a problem for people with a personality that lends towards addictions. They certainly can be addictive. They are not gambling.
I don't feel they need be restricted to all because the actions of the few. Again that responsible adult thing.
How about adults who are atypical? You know, they exist right? Like Autistic adults? Adults who do not have the prowess to navigate the world with such ease. And yet, there are other predatory practices like scamming grandma because she doesn't know Microsoft wouldn't have any interest in her Google Play Gift Cards, and no one has an issue shunning those scammers?? Grandpa has been around for years.. he should know better, right??! How about them? You know... you're right.. we shouldn't bubble wrap society.. BUT WE SHOULD ban practices that were CONSTRUCTED from the ground up to be PREDATORY. Watch the video I posted. It is exactly what Zenimax Online Studios has been doing. Watch it.. and THEN tell me what you really think.
To the quoted person:
You know, as someone who does, in fact, suffer from Autism, I would really like it if you used another example. I have a part of my money set aside for an entertainment-only budget and I will spend it however I wish, within the boundaries of the law. if it runs out, so be it. That's why I use a budget. I can't speak for people with other issues, but Autism isn't just an excuse. It's a real problem for those of us who have suffered and keep suffering from it.
To everyone:
Also, I don't believe politicians are even capable of handling such a law properly. If history has anything to say about it, just check out how many products are plainly prohibited in the EU as opposed to regulated to allow research and proper use. rather than misuse. You need only take a glance at such a list to notice there are quite a few of the former.
Sadly, predatory practices are all about creativity. Weird, am I right? But yeah, predators get creative, a government forbids that practice, then a new one comes up. Rinse and repeat. So what exactly do people get when something is prohibited? Less of the same and another, newer predator to prohibit. Nothing more, but a lot less. I don't care for loot crates and wouldn't mind to see their contents become part of the playable, earnable, game rewards. But something is definitely wrong with the typical cycle (and ban mentality) I mentioned on the 2nd or 3rd line of this paragraph. By the way English is not my native language, which is why I'm not sure which line it is. Punctuation and all that.
As for the problem posed in this thread, no idea about gambling but crates are based on a pseudo-random number generator, which I believe may have been chosen for its tendency towards low end rewards, and most likely runs on the server to prevent client-side "mishaps". Are they gambling? I'm not the expert. But then again, I just posted here to request the above and state the fact about pseudo-RNG and my suspicion regarding the software handling it. Either way, the person I quoted did give a good definition. And as far as I see it, the math exists for an average amount of gems per crate to be expected. Since gems guarantee a reward, it would just be a matter of transparency and this could all be solved. Not that I expect ZOS to reveal the numbers, mind you.
TL;DR:
1. Please don't use us Autistic adults as an excuse.
2. Governments won't handle it properly as things stand now.
3. Bans have never fixed greed, and never will. New solution required.
4. Paragraph about RNG.
Edited to specify whom each message is for and to correct grammar. Also to remove a rather problematic, rhetorical question of my own.
I use the term because it fits to me in a very personal manner that will not be openly discussed on these forums. I've not implied Autism is an excuse but as it pertains to my own personal experiences and circumstances.
Fair enough, I won't pry.Nord Race Representative'Cause Rigurt deserves a holiday0 -
kargen27✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭rootkitronin wrote: »
No the legal assertion is spot on. They are not illegal. Could they be in the future? Maybe. As of right now though they do not fall under the legal definition of gambling and are not considered gambling. It isn't even a gray area legally. Gambling is heavily regulated and controlled in the United States. The penalties for breaking gambling laws can be severe.
You can't judge things by possible future rulings. You judge things by the laws we have now and how those laws are applied. Again they might be problematic to people with personality traits that lead towards addiction and they might be predatory (I don't believe so) but they are not gambling. Others are correct that the laws are still playing catch-up on a lot of this so we will have to wait and see where the law comes down. Personally I don't think you create a law that denies rights of the many or punishes the many to protect the few. In other words my way of thinking is we need to be responsible for ourselves those around us and as much as possible government should stay out of the way.
You do realize that these would not be laws against consumers, but rather ones against multi-billion dollar companies - which you seem to be very adamantly defending.
Always strikes me as strange when people see an attack on loot crates as an attack on them and their freedoms. Even if loot crates were to be banned, there's nothing is stopping you from giving money to ZOS or just flushing it down the toilet if that's what you really want to do.
Just out of curiosity though - what rights would you be denied here (or the many as you put it)? The right to buy loot crates? Last I checked, that's not a right, and there are many many laws regulating what you can or can't buy already.
There are also many laws that affect a majority in order to protect a minority - that's nothing new.
What rights? Basically everything that isn't specifically forbidden by the constitution nor against the existing laws. I'm mostly libertarian in my political leanings. I think most regulations if and when needed should start at local area then expand from there. I want a federal government that is very limited in scope. I understand why we need meat inspectors but want as few regulations as possible. That means fewer regulations on individuals and businesses no matter size.
"and there are many many laws regulating what you can or can't buy already."
I agree and in my eyes the best thing that could happen is we start getting rid of regulations instead of creating more.
What is being regulated isn't as important as the fact that something is being regulated. I don't care about crown crates. I don't want the government telling me how to spend my money because other people have a problem managing theirs. I don't want to be told what I can and can't eat/drink or how much I can eat/drink because others can't maintain a healthy diet. I don't need the government to babysit me and I don't want them babysitting me because of the actions of others.
If you know you have a compulsion problem set up limits on your cards. Get help from friends and family if possible. We need more personal responsibility not less.
"You do realize that these would not be laws against consumers"
They would have direct impact on the consumer. If a company is denied the ability to sell something it goes without saying the consumer is going to lose access to that same something.
I don't really do crown crates (get a few once in a great while by purchasing with in game gold) but I know many players that enjoy purchasing the crates and are responsible in how many they purchase. I see no reason to punish them because others lack that same ability to be responsible.
and then the parrot said, "must be the water mines green too."2 -
Lostar✭✭✭✭rootkitronin wrote: »
No the legal assertion is spot on. They are not illegal. Could they be in the future? Maybe. As of right now though they do not fall under the legal definition of gambling and are not considered gambling. It isn't even a gray area legally. Gambling is heavily regulated and controlled in the United States. The penalties for breaking gambling laws can be severe.
You can't judge things by possible future rulings. You judge things by the laws we have now and how those laws are applied. Again they might be problematic to people with personality traits that lead towards addiction and they might be predatory (I don't believe so) but they are not gambling. Others are correct that the laws are still playing catch-up on a lot of this so we will have to wait and see where the law comes down. Personally I don't think you create a law that denies rights of the many or punishes the many to protect the few. In other words my way of thinking is we need to be responsible for ourselves those around us and as much as possible government should stay out of the way.
You do realize that these would not be laws against consumers, but rather ones against multi-billion dollar companies - which you seem to be very adamantly defending.
Always strikes me as strange when people see an attack on loot crates as an attack on them and their freedoms. Even if loot crates were to be banned, there's nothing is stopping you from giving money to ZOS or just flushing it down the toilet if that's what you really want to do.
Just out of curiosity though - what rights would you be denied here (or the many as you put it)? The right to buy loot crates? Last I checked, that's not a right, and there are many many laws regulating what you can or can't buy already.
There are also many laws that affect a majority in order to protect a minority - that's nothing new.
What rights? Basically everything that isn't specifically forbidden by the constitution nor against the existing laws. I'm mostly libertarian in my political leanings. I think most regulations if and when needed should start at local area then expand from there. I want a federal government that is very limited in scope. I understand why we need meat inspectors but want as few regulations as possible. That means fewer regulations on individuals and businesses no matter size.
"and there are many many laws regulating what you can or can't buy already."
I agree and in my eyes the best thing that could happen is we start getting rid of regulations instead of creating more.
What is being regulated isn't as important as the fact that something is being regulated. I don't care about crown crates. I don't want the government telling me how to spend my money because other people have a problem managing theirs. I don't want to be told what I can and can't eat/drink or how much I can eat/drink because others can't maintain a healthy diet. I don't need the government to babysit me and I don't want them babysitting me because of the actions of others.
If you know you have a compulsion problem set up limits on your cards. Get help from friends and family if possible. We need more personal responsibility not less.
"You do realize that these would not be laws against consumers"
They would have direct impact on the consumer. If a company is denied the ability to sell something it goes without saying the consumer is going to lose access to that same something.
I don't really do crown crates (get a few once in a great while by purchasing with in game gold) but I know many players that enjoy purchasing the crates and are responsible in how many they purchase. I see no reason to punish them because others lack that same ability to be responsible.
Do any of your friends know about this thread? Are they willing to share what they enjoy about loot crates? I wonder about their own opinions of having a different system of obtaining the cosmetics (direct sell, battle pass, etc.) in the absence of loot boxes. If loot boxes remain, would they be for or opposed to regulations where the ESRB label changes from Rated M to Rated Ao “real world currency gambling present”?
I wonder if they would see loot box rewards being utilized in a system that does not require chance and risk as them getting punished.Edited by Lostar on June 28, 2022 7:47AM2 -
Aelorin✭✭✭✭✭I did not read every comment in this thread.
I do not know if any Belgian citizen has replied, but in Belgium you can no longer buy crown crates. There has been a law and now they are banned.
The only 2 options for me is to do endeavours, but as OP stated you have to gather that currency for about a year for a big shiny. The other option is trading gold for real money through the gifting system but there is allways a risk of being scammed.
It would be a lot better if we could just buy what we want, as OP says.
As long as no more countries follow the Belgian example, the crates will continue...
And so the Elder Scrolls foretold.You will be shy, and I will be bold.2 -
Northwold✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭FlopsyPrince wrote: »RisenEclipse wrote: »I'm just going to add my two cents here. But legally loot boxes are not gambling. It's why many games implement them. They don't require a license to implement them, and they're a cash cow.
However I disagree with having them in the game. Personally I'd rather go to the crown store and buy a 5000 crown mount then pay for a 12 pack of crown crates and MAYBE get something good... and with my current rng luck, me getting anything good is unlikely LOL I find them irritating and annoying tbh. I'd be much happier just buying those same items in the store. So really I could do without them all together.
Your legal assertion is questionable. They may not have been ruled as such yet, but you most certainly do "gamble" to get the better prizes!
No the legal assertion is spot on. They are not illegal. Could they be in the future? Maybe. As of right now though they do not fall under the legal definition of gambling and are not considered gambling. It isn't even a gray area legally. Gambling is heavily regulated and controlled in the United States. The penalties for breaking gambling laws can be severe.
You can't judge things by possible future rulings. You judge things by the laws we have now and how those laws are applied. Again they might be problematic to people with personality traits that lead towards addiction and they might be predatory (I don't believe so) but they are not gambling. Others are correct that the laws are still playing catch-up on a lot of this so we will have to wait and see where the law comes down. Personally I don't think you create a law that denies rights of the many or punishes the many to protect the few. In other words my way of thinking is we need to be responsible for ourselves those around us and as much as possible government should stay out of the way.
Sorry but almost all corporate legal advice is given based on how lawyers anticipate the law may be applied. It's not a question of "has some court or regulator already said this is illegal". It's "do we think this is illegal and has the potential to be viewed as such". And in various jurisdictions the view is that loot boxes DO fall fair and square in the definition of gambling. It's not for no reason that developers have tried to add supposed "alternative" routes to the prizes -- it's because their lawyers have told them they must do that if they're to have even a prayer in future litigation. The widespread shock in the legal community at the Dutch appellate court exonerating EA in the FIFA card collectibles case is also telling -- the lawyers think the decision is plain wrong on the law and that the court allowed itself to be sent down a rabbit hole by EA's arguments in a way that doesn't make sense within the law in question.Edited by Northwold on June 28, 2022 9:27AM2 -
zaria✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Seals of endeavor solves the issue for me.Skullstachio wrote: »How quickly people forget (let alone feign ignorance.) that the endeavor system exists.
Daily endeavors refresh every 24 hours, weekly endeavors are self explanatory (they refresh weekly.)
Completing them and saving up enough endeavors, if there isnt anything worth getting in the current crown crate iteration with endeavors, save them up for another crown crate rotation or when zos brings back an old one for a limited time, there is no cap/limit to how many endeavors can be held at once.
TL:DR: if you don’t like buying crown crates with crowns, simply deal with the endeavor system which, with enough saved, can let you get a specific thing from said crown crate.
However its set up in an very sneaky way, you see how crowns gems is set up with increasing cost for more expensive rewards. Superior Rewards: 16, 40, 100, 400 and 1200 I think for Radiant Apex.
Seals of endeavors is tilted the other way Superior Rewards: 1000,2000,3600,8000,16000 for Radiant Apex.
so an radiant mount is 25 times more expensive than an superior reward while 8 times more expensive with seals.
I assume this is to get people to save up seals for the Radiant mounts and stuff and use crated to buy superior and epic
Grinding just make you go in circles.
Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.0 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »@jaws343
The game is rated for M (17+). Most casinos you must be 21 or older in order to gamble at their establishment.
The game has gambling so instead it should be labeled Ao along with the warring of gambling being present. If this hurts the games population, then that tells us just how much loot boxes do not belong in a fantasy MMORPG.
@Lostar
The minimum age requirement in most states for buying lottery tickets and participating in parimutuel betting is 18 in most states.
https://www.casino.org/local/guide/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK230619/
While most players do not like loot crates, including many who buy the crates (even though some clamor for them), they pay the bills. If Zenimax eliminated crates they would have to get more revenue from someplace such as increasing the cost of DLCs and ESO+ as well as charging significantly more for everything in the cash shop.
This is reality speaking here yet I do not see people complaining about the crown crates suggestions they are willing to pay double what they pay now if crates disappear. Since many already complain about the cost of mounts, outfit/armory slot, et all, this is unlikely to be a path Zenimax attempts willingly. If they are forced to cease selling crates it WILL be replaced and likely by something we might like a lot less.
Or something we like a lot more. Who can tell. It's all hypothetical. I would like ZOS to look at Sea of Thieves and see how they do battle passes, tie them into ESO+, take out the daily login rewards (that's just another tool to build "Habit" in the Hook>Habit>Hobby methodology) and instead offer them inside the season pass as the "free base version" of the season pass (as Sea of Thieves) and perhaps a middle tier that comes with ESO+ for the season that gives you slightly better rewards (the middle tier rewards from loot crate) and then the Apex tier is $5 for that season and that gives you the shinies throughout that season.
Check out how Sea of Thieves does it to get a feel for what I am talking about. Sea of Thieves isn't for everyone, I know.. but monetization doesn't determine the quality of a game or the interest in playing it (well, at least, it shouldn't).
Yes, it is hypothetical. However, if Zenimax, or any of these companies that run these GaaS we like to play found a way to get the same amount of revenue via a means we like more they would already be doing it. This includes finding more to add to ESO+ Oh, and Hook > Habbit methodology is the core to success for a GaaS. It is why we have family writs, daily login rewards, etc. This industry is very well aware of it and thrives on it.
That is not hypothetical. It is reality.
Businesses tend to innovate when sales are poor or there is a lot of competition or when they reliant on it, not when things are going well. So no, they would not. They ARE brainstorming new ways to monetize and succeeding at it though in response to the legislative uncertainty. Despite the assertion that it's not hypothetical they'd already have innovated if they could, that absolutely remains to be seen. And is highly likely to be untrue given the success of battle passes.
Battle Pass is essentially a subscription to gain more rewards from playing Fortnite.
Battlepasses are not a sub, nor are they limited to Fortnite. Plenty of them are just spending hooks to earn cosmetics through play or cash. It would be very easy for ESO to offer radiant apexes in this manner.
The Fortnite Battle Royal Battle Pass is a paid subscription, a premium service that is not necessary to play Fortnite, as it is a free-to-play game.
Also, taking into consideration the average cost of getting a radiant apex mount then the cost of such a battle pass would be rather significant and make the cost of ESO+ look like pocket change.
It would probably work better if they just outright sold the Radiant Apex mounts for a few hundred dollars worth of crowns.
In reality, the battle pass would just be another gimmick. Post things to the crown store straight up. Not sure why that is such an objection. If it cost more than someone can afford then that is just life, truly.
Fortnite is not the only game with a battlepass. There are plenty of games with battlepasses and they are often just a way to buy cosmetics rather than subs. I'm not sure why you keep using Fortnite as the sole definition. They are not inherently subs.
Having it cost too much means it won't sell well. The entire point of loot crates is to get people to buy items they wouldn't necessarily buy straight up and give something that hooks them onto the purchase. Battlepasses accomplish that without the gambling element.Edited by spartaxoxo on June 28, 2022 1:40PM1 -
DMuehlhausen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Crown crates are not gambling. You purchase a crown crate knowing it will give you a minimum number of items. You always get at least that minimum number. Crown crates are no more gambling than trading cards that come with a stick of gum are gambling.
That said I would prefer they got rid of the crown crates and maybe even the crown store altogether and went back to a required subscription to play.
This is what I always reply to people. Gambling you can drop 1 Million dollars and not get a single dollar or item in return. You may not like what you get but you always get something for you money spent on Crown Crates.
I don't think they need to get of the crates. I do think everything should be grindable though in the game. Either by leads, or drops from dungeon / World / Trial bosses etc. So if people want to put in that time they can still get the items.
Now the seals help with this somewhat since you can save and get items you want, but since they limit how many of the seal endeavors you can do each day this isn't really a grinding option. If they let you grind as many seals as you want by always having new things to do that just keep refreshing it would be an option.1 -
blktauna✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Not being someone with a gambling problem, I buy a few crates when there's a lot of items on offer that I want. I buy several crates and gem up from the stuff I don't want. If the crates only have one or two interesting items, I skip that set of offerings and wait for the next batch. I'm always on top of the twitch drops to get those gems as well. I generally have a fair amount of gems at any time. I'm not as on top of endeavours as I should be but even then I have a goodly amount.
I don't understand the allure of these radiant apex mounts and 99% of them are something I have no interest in and if your sole issue is you want every radiant apex mount then you need to accept that you're gonna spend to get them. Its no different than only collecting Koenigseggs... They are limited and incredibly expensive. You need to plan accordingly.
If you can't stop yourself from buying the crates, that's an issue you need to get help with. Yes I know some people do indeed have a problem, but they need to seek the necessary help, no prohibit everyone else who has no problem.
Yes the drop rate is crap. Everyone knows it. Plan accordingly. Stuff cycles in the boxes (generally) eventually you will have enough gems from orobouros crates and/or seals for what you want. Sometimes you might miss out. Welcome to the world. Sometimes you miss out on things you want, sometimes you just have to wait a little longer.
PCNA
PCEU2 -
Lostar✭✭✭✭Not being someone with a gambling problem, I buy a few crates when there's a lot of items on offer that I want. I buy several crates and gem up from the stuff I don't want. If the crates only have one or two interesting items, I skip that set of offerings and wait for the next batch. I'm always on top of the twitch drops to get those gems as well. I generally have a fair amount of gems at any time. I'm not as on top of endeavours as I should be but even then I have a goodly amount.
I don't understand the allure of these radiant apex mounts and 99% of them are something I have no interest in and if your sole issue is you want every radiant apex mount then you need to accept that you're gonna spend to get them. Its no different than only collecting Koenigseggs... They are limited and incredibly expensive. You need to plan accordingly.
If you can't stop yourself from buying the crates, that's an issue you need to get help with. Yes I know some people do indeed have a problem, but they need to seek the necessary help, no prohibit everyone else who has no problem.
Yes the drop rate is crap. Everyone knows it. Plan accordingly. Stuff cycles in the boxes (generally) eventually you will have enough gems from orobouros crates and/or seals for what you want. Sometimes you might miss out. Welcome to the world. Sometimes you miss out on things you want, sometimes you just have to wait a little longer.
Welcome to the world. Now you have gambling in your homes that are directly tied into games where you have the potential to pay exorbitant amounts of cash for the chance to get fake digital goods that you can’t ever claim ownership of or trade like all the physical goods that you and a few other of gambling box apologist likes to use as a flimsy example like some EA exec in court. Does it suck? Yeah but life isn’t fair and though this feature is built from the ground up with the mindful intention up prey upon our monkey brains, I see no reason to change things that suck.
I don’t know how old you are.. how long you’ve been in the gaming world; Since it’s iteration or since Fortnite. I’m going to guess you’ve born witness to the slide into more and more predatory monetizations. I remember when people were freaking out about horse armor. The argument being “I already paid for your game” (this was back when live service games were fairly new).. others have invalidated them saying “Well. It’s extra. Welcome to the live service experience.”
The goal post will be moved again and the best we gamers can reasonably do is keep talking about it; making the younger generation knowledgeable who was otherwise not aware this is not what gaming use to be like. Otherwise, one day the game industry will finally go too far for your own tolerance and you’ll be met with a plethora of sentiments served up to you to try and mock you into silence; “Welcome to gaming”
Also we can write our state lawmakers and elected officials.
(Edits: because autocorrect is a troll)Edited by Lostar on June 28, 2022 3:41PM0 -
jaws343✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Not being someone with a gambling problem, I buy a few crates when there's a lot of items on offer that I want. I buy several crates and gem up from the stuff I don't want. If the crates only have one or two interesting items, I skip that set of offerings and wait for the next batch. I'm always on top of the twitch drops to get those gems as well. I generally have a fair amount of gems at any time. I'm not as on top of endeavours as I should be but even then I have a goodly amount.
I don't understand the allure of these radiant apex mounts and 99% of them are something I have no interest in and if your sole issue is you want every radiant apex mount then you need to accept that you're gonna spend to get them. Its no different than only collecting Koenigseggs... They are limited and incredibly expensive. You need to plan accordingly.
If you can't stop yourself from buying the crates, that's an issue you need to get help with. Yes I know some people do indeed have a problem, but they need to seek the necessary help, no prohibit everyone else who has no problem.
Yes the drop rate is crap. Everyone knows it. Plan accordingly. Stuff cycles in the boxes (generally) eventually you will have enough gems from orobouros crates and/or seals for what you want. Sometimes you might miss out. Welcome to the world. Sometimes you miss out on things you want, sometimes you just have to wait a little longer.
Welcome to the world. Now you have gambling in your homes that are directly tied into games where you have the potential to pay exorbitant amounts of cash for the chance to get fake digital goods that you can’t ever claim ownership of or trade like all the physical goods that you and a few other of gambling box apologist likes to use as a flimsy example like some EA exec in court. Does it suck? Yeah but life isn’t fair and though this feature is built from the ground up with the mindful intention up prey upon our monkey brains, I see no reason to change things that suck.
I don’t know how old you are.. how long you’ve been in the gaming world; Since it’s iteration or since Fortnite. I’m going to guess you’ve born witness to the slide into more and more predatory monetizations. I remember when people were freaking out about horse armor. The argument being “I already paid for your game” (this was back when live service games were fairly new).. others have invalidated them saying “Well. It’s extra. Welcome to the live service experience.”
The goal post will be moved again and the best we gamers can reasonably do is keep talking about it; making the younger generation who was not aware this is not what gaming use to be like. Otherwise, one day the game industry will finally go too far for your own tolerance and you’ll be met with a plethora of sediments served up to you to try and mock you into silence; “Welcome to gaming”
Also we can write our state lawmakers and elected officials.
I would just play something else, or enjoy some other form of entertainment, rather than trying to remove aspects of something that others may enjoy because it doesn't suit me.2 -
Lostar✭✭✭✭Not being someone with a gambling problem, I buy a few crates when there's a lot of items on offer that I want. I buy several crates and gem up from the stuff I don't want. If the crates only have one or two interesting items, I skip that set of offerings and wait for the next batch. I'm always on top of the twitch drops to get those gems as well. I generally have a fair amount of gems at any time. I'm not as on top of endeavours as I should be but even then I have a goodly amount.
I don't understand the allure of these radiant apex mounts and 99% of them are something I have no interest in and if your sole issue is you want every radiant apex mount then you need to accept that you're gonna spend to get them. Its no different than only collecting Koenigseggs... They are limited and incredibly expensive. You need to plan accordingly.
If you can't stop yourself from buying the crates, that's an issue you need to get help with. Yes I know some people do indeed have a problem, but they need to seek the necessary help, no prohibit everyone else who has no problem.
Yes the drop rate is crap. Everyone knows it. Plan accordingly. Stuff cycles in the boxes (generally) eventually you will have enough gems from orobouros crates and/or seals for what you want. Sometimes you might miss out. Welcome to the world. Sometimes you miss out on things you want, sometimes you just have to wait a little longer.
Welcome to the world. Now you have gambling in your homes that are directly tied into games where you have the potential to pay exorbitant amounts of cash for the chance to get fake digital goods that you can’t ever claim ownership of or trade like all the physical goods that you and a few other of gambling box apologist likes to use as a flimsy example like some EA exec in court. Does it suck? Yeah but life isn’t fair and though this feature is built from the ground up with the mindful intention up prey upon our monkey brains, I see no reason to change things that suck.
I don’t know how old you are.. how long you’ve been in the gaming world; Since it’s iteration or since Fortnite. I’m going to guess you’ve born witness to the slide into more and more predatory monetizations. I remember when people were freaking out about horse armor. The argument being “I already paid for your game” (this was back when live service games were fairly new).. others have invalidated them saying “Well. It’s extra. Welcome to the live service experience.”
The goal post will be moved again and the best we gamers can reasonably do is keep talking about it; making the younger generation who was not aware this is not what gaming use to be like. Otherwise, one day the game industry will finally go too far for your own tolerance and you’ll be met with a plethora of sediments served up to you to try and mock you into silence; “Welcome to gaming”
Also we can write our state lawmakers and elected officials.
I would just play something else, or enjoy some other form of entertainment, rather than trying to remove aspects of something that others may enjoy because it doesn't suit me.
Luckily the majority of the content of the game isn’t gambling and there remains a draw for me to continue engaging in the activity so long as I ignore crown crates. Personally. I can ignore them. Mostly. I can’t ignore the unethical practice of their existence, however. It’s upsetting when I see or hear about something that would be useful for my playstyle.. and If I don’t have the endeavors saved, then I have to mindfully make the decision whether or not to gamble. Our impulses should not be tested in such a potentially dangerous way within a video game Rated M for 17+ and not Ao and does not even warn people that there is real world money gambling present.
There is no reason to tell a gamer to not game if they don’t like an toxic element of a game other than making an attempt to invalidate their concerns.
Edited by Lostar on June 28, 2022 3:54PM1 -
colossalvoids✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I'm just glad that some companies actively going against the grain and actually gaining immense success doing game which are actually yours after purchase and are full experience instead of robbed version until marketing team decides how to sell you the rest of it. Wasn't expecting it would become minority thing one day and here we are. Literally feels like game industry was highjacked and held hostage lol.5 -
rootkitronin✭✭✭✭✭
If you know you have a compulsion problem set up limits on your cards. Get help from friends and family if possible. We need more personal responsibility not less.
Sounds like you're going to advocate for personal responsibility, while giving corporate and social responsibility a free pass.
Under that logic, we wouldn't regulate tobacco at all - just go back to allow cigarette companies to advertise to whoever they feel like and as openly as they want, after all, it's the consumer that needs to be responsible, not the tobacco company. Right?
I can respect the idea of small government, and I won't debate that many things are overregulated - they absolutely are. Many things are also poorly regulated, or ineffectively regulated.
But the flipside is that a lot of things are also underregulated, and there's a lot of companies that get a way with their actions at the expense of the consumer, and I'm just not down with that.
Personally, I don't like seeing people taken advantage of or preyed upon by larger entities.
And the fact is, even if you're not someone that's being taken advantage of, you still live in a society and share that society with people who are. Whether you believe it or not, that does affect you in one way or another.7 -
EozZoe1989✭✭✭when get past champion 50.. you get a champion section were can place points to add more things found in treature chests maybe that includes loot boxes not sure but try it and see..1 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭rootkitronin wrote: »
If you know you have a compulsion problem set up limits on your cards. Get help from friends and family if possible. We need more personal responsibility not less.
Sounds like you're going to advocate for personal responsibility, while giving corporate and social responsibility a free pass.
Under that logic, we wouldn't regulate tobacco at all - just go back to allow cigarette companies to advertise to whoever they feel like and as openly as they want, after all, it's the consumer that needs to be responsible, not the tobacco company. Right?
I can respect the idea of small government, and I won't debate that many things are overregulated - they absolutely are. Many things are also poorly regulated, or ineffectively regulated.
But the flipside is that a lot of things are also underregulated, and there's a lot of companies that get a way with their actions at the expense of the consumer, and I'm just not down with that.
Personally, I don't like seeing people taken advantage of or preyed upon by larger entities.
And the fact is, even if you're not someone that's being taken advantage of, you still live in a society and share that society with people who are. Whether you believe it or not, that does affect you in one way or another.
I'll also add that we know now that the key to dealing with addiction as a society is multifaceted. It's not all on one group.
We need regulations on businesses that they deal in these goods. Stuff like being unable to sell to minors. Or bring required to disclose odds so customers can make informed decisions.
We need funding for health and wellness services like therapists and rehab centers. Education on what addiction is.
And then we also need the addicts themselves to work on themselves.
3 -
Lostar✭✭✭✭@spartaxoxo
Indeed, it is just as much about self-responsibility. This responsibility does need to extend to corporations as well just as they have into other more widely agreed upon forms of addictions.
There is the devil's advocate of "well it's always been this way" and yes but no. I remember when EverQuest launched in my senior year in 1999. It was years later that there were testimonials popping up, entire video productions made to reveal the world of gaming addiction. Indeed, the games themselves can be addicting and can also cause financial and emotional hardships. Perhaps we can't strip games themselves completely of their addicting components for obvious reasons (those dopamine highs) but what we can do is demand that the gaming industry strips off at least one layer of insidious elements that they added to compound the issue.Edited by Lostar on June 28, 2022 5:06PM0 -
Amottica✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »@jaws343
The game is rated for M (17+). Most casinos you must be 21 or older in order to gamble at their establishment.
The game has gambling so instead it should be labeled Ao along with the warring of gambling being present. If this hurts the games population, then that tells us just how much loot boxes do not belong in a fantasy MMORPG.
@Lostar
The minimum age requirement in most states for buying lottery tickets and participating in parimutuel betting is 18 in most states.
https://www.casino.org/local/guide/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK230619/
While most players do not like loot crates, including many who buy the crates (even though some clamor for them), they pay the bills. If Zenimax eliminated crates they would have to get more revenue from someplace such as increasing the cost of DLCs and ESO+ as well as charging significantly more for everything in the cash shop.
This is reality speaking here yet I do not see people complaining about the crown crates suggestions they are willing to pay double what they pay now if crates disappear. Since many already complain about the cost of mounts, outfit/armory slot, et all, this is unlikely to be a path Zenimax attempts willingly. If they are forced to cease selling crates it WILL be replaced and likely by something we might like a lot less.
Or something we like a lot more. Who can tell. It's all hypothetical. I would like ZOS to look at Sea of Thieves and see how they do battle passes, tie them into ESO+, take out the daily login rewards (that's just another tool to build "Habit" in the Hook>Habit>Hobby methodology) and instead offer them inside the season pass as the "free base version" of the season pass (as Sea of Thieves) and perhaps a middle tier that comes with ESO+ for the season that gives you slightly better rewards (the middle tier rewards from loot crate) and then the Apex tier is $5 for that season and that gives you the shinies throughout that season.
Check out how Sea of Thieves does it to get a feel for what I am talking about. Sea of Thieves isn't for everyone, I know.. but monetization doesn't determine the quality of a game or the interest in playing it (well, at least, it shouldn't).
Yes, it is hypothetical. However, if Zenimax, or any of these companies that run these GaaS we like to play found a way to get the same amount of revenue via a means we like more they would already be doing it. This includes finding more to add to ESO+ Oh, and Hook > Habbit methodology is the core to success for a GaaS. It is why we have family writs, daily login rewards, etc. This industry is very well aware of it and thrives on it.
That is not hypothetical. It is reality.
Businesses tend to innovate when sales are poor or there is a lot of competition or when they reliant on it, not when things are going well. So no, they would not. They ARE brainstorming new ways to monetize and succeeding at it though in response to the legislative uncertainty. Despite the assertion that it's not hypothetical they'd already have innovated if they could, that absolutely remains to be seen. And is highly likely to be untrue given the success of battle passes.
Battle Pass is essentially a subscription to gain more rewards from playing Fortnite.
Battlepasses are not a sub, nor are they limited to Fortnite. Plenty of them are just spending hooks to earn cosmetics through play or cash. It would be very easy for ESO to offer radiant apexes in this manner.
The Fortnite Battle Royal Battle Pass is a paid subscription, a premium service that is not necessary to play Fortnite, as it is a free-to-play game.
Also, taking into consideration the average cost of getting a radiant apex mount then the cost of such a battle pass would be rather significant and make the cost of ESO+ look like pocket change.
It would probably work better if they just outright sold the Radiant Apex mounts for a few hundred dollars worth of crowns.
In reality, the battle pass would just be another gimmick. Post things to the crown store straight up. Not sure why that is such an objection. If it cost more than someone can afford then that is just life, truly.
Fortnite is not the only game with a battlepass. There are plenty of games with battlepasses and they are often just a way to buy cosmetics rather than subs. I'm not sure why you keep using Fortnite as the sole definition. They are not inherently subs.
Having it cost too much means it won't sell well. The entire point of loot crates is to get people to buy items they wouldn't necessarily buy straight up and give something that hooks them onto the purchase. Battlepasses accomplish that without the gambling element.
Fortnite is the most popular example which is why I bring it up. If you don’t like that example them bring up another BP that is more successful than this one instead of complaining that I mentioned Fortnite.
I’m reality it’s irrelevant to my point based on facts. Zenimax, and every game developer that uses loot boxes, will find another way to replace the revenue lost of loot crates are banned. Player will have to pay the costs of maintaining the game one way or another or the game will reduce quality and/or quality and some might even shut their doors.
This is a fact of business survival.
4 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Video_games_containing_battle_passes
A quick Google search tells me Battlepasses are in 47 different games.
Overwatch will soon count itself in that list and ditch lootboxes in favor of battlepasses. Fortnitee is indeed the biggest game to have them (being one of the biggest games on the planet), that doesn't make their battlepass the only definition of one.
Some are more like subs, and some are replacements for lootboxes.In the video game industry, a battle pass is a type of monetization approach that provides additional content for a game usually through a tiered system, rewarding the player with in-game items for playing the game and completing specific challenges. Inspired by the season pass ticketing system and originating with Dota 2 in 2013, the battle pass model gained more use as an alternative to subscription fees and loot boxes beginning in the late 2010s. Battle passes tend to offer free passes, which are available to all users, and a premium pass that require annual or seasonal charges in exchange for enhanced items and cosmetics.
Obviously the proper context for THIS game would be the ones that work as an alternative to lootboxes, since that would be a 1 to 1 example of how they'd have to be enabled to work here. Instead of an alternative to a sub.
I never argued that they wouldn't replace lootboxes, and in fact proposed a increasingly common alternative to them. What I disagreed with is the assertion that they need lootboxes or outrageous prices on specific items to monetize. They don't. They can also use battlepasses. It's what a lot of companies are doing.Edited by spartaxoxo on June 28, 2022 5:15PM0 -
Drammanoth✭✭✭✭✭
Underlining and bold by me - on purposerootkitronin wrote: »(...) we wouldn't regulate tobacco at all - just go back to allow cigarette companies to advertise to whoever they feel like and as openly as they want, after all, it's the consumer that needs to be responsible, not the tobacco company. Right?
(...) Personally, I don't like seeing people taken advantage of or preyed upon by larger entities.
And the fact is, even if you're not someone that's being taken advantage of, you still live in a society and share that society with people who are. Whether you believe it or not, that does affect you in one way or another.
[sarcasm]
Oh, come on @rootkitronin, maybe kargen27 is a hermit? Maybe he is unaffected by what is going on in society?
[/sarcasm]
My stupid comment aside, if you (plural) can't see the LARGER picture, well... it is your problem. Hence the regulations - or the attempts to regulate things.0 -
colossalvoids✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭EozZoe1989 wrote: »when get past champion 50.. you get a champion section were can place points to add more things found in treature chests maybe that includes loot boxes not sure but try it and see..
That's not how the passive works. Crown crates are crown store exclusive and have nothing to do with in-game loot as they're not dropping anywhere. Passive mentioned also is increasing quality (from blue to purple etc.) of set items by chance and that's it if I remember it correctly.2 -
maximusrex45✭✭✭✭The whole loot box thing is kind of ironic to me because it speaks of the insecurity of the developer's belief in their own product. They would make more money with direct sales, but instead decide to use loot boxes to keep their hooks in a more "reliable" segment of the population that will spend what they need to to get what they want. It is safe, but also limiting in a real business sense.3 -
Lostar✭✭✭✭Easy isn't even an issue. It is 'easy' to crunch your bank account details and get tens of thousands of crowns for hundreds and thousands of dollars and then just brute force your way to getting everything you want out of the crown crates.
But is it 'good' ?2
This discussion has been closed.