@Gnesnig
I wrote it like that to be cute. I was making the point that the cost of items in loot boxes is overly complicated to figure out and made in a way that is hard to grasp for people. Most people barely know how to use more than multiplication/division and addition/subtraction and certainly can’t calculate probabilities.

Ffs a&w failed to sell their third pounders sandwiches for less money than the quarter pounder because the consumers believed the quarter pounder was bigger.

DagenHawk wrote: »

Yes Murdering is universally wrong...

It isn't. Sees-all-colors vs Yofnir in the game is the prime example, aka "Murdering for the greater good".

"To kill with intent" is the short description of murder. Which includes anyone killing in a war. Yet, there's plenty of people describing these murders as noble and it's definitely legislated.

DagenHawk wrote: »

Lostar wrote: »

DagenHawk wrote: »

Lostar wrote: »

DagenHawk wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

No, the entire thread is about an immoral practice that is getting legislative attention and is highly likely to get banned in many countries soon.

You can't legislate morality...your Morals are not Bobo's Morals and you can't shove your Morals down Bobo's throat...not in The United States at least.

I love my Country and all who dwell in it :-)

Oh yes, you certainly can.

Uh yeah...that's how you get 1984 and the Handmaids tale. Legislation like that is temporary, and usually ends violently...most people are libertines when it comes down to it...that's why Oligarchs and Dictators never last that long....but hey thansk for letting all of us know how you want the world to be.

Murdering is immoral. It is outlawed. Things can get really long and really dark really fast on just how many laws are constructed for the reason to protect one another from many different forms of harm be it physical, emotional, or financial. Morality is deeply tied to our lawmaking already.

Yes Murdering is universally wrong...but you can't conflate that with crown crates Jim...I mean Carrie Nation tried to conflate Murder with Alcohol sales and it led to one of the most violent times in our history.

Just because you personally hate something doesn't mean you can force everyone else to not partake.

I think if you were that concerned about gambling you would go after the lotteries first...I have seen seniors spend their entire retirement checks on tickets...one would think that would be a bigger evil...but it isn't in reality a concern for the community thing it is a "Me, My, and I" thing.

I will sum up that we have this exact same thread every time there is something cool offered in the crown crates...I wonder what it is this time?

Absolutely nothing for me this round. This is brought up because I keep my finger on the pulse on this subject through Asmongold, Jimquisiton, Bellular News and others. Please stop trying to derail. Thank you.

They could limit loot boxes per day,say up to 15 boxes per day/week(1of the 15 pack,3 of the 5 packs,or 15 of the 1 packs).It would keep them making money,and prevent alot of gamblers from losing too much,if you had to wait 24 hours or more.

But in the end,most gamblers with severe addictions,or even moderate would just find another source.Stopping one,would not help them at all,and could lead them to more dangerous/illegal gambling situations.

Lostar wrote: »

DagenHawk wrote: »

Lostar wrote: »

They know what they are doing. They have known. How are you simply ok with being manipulated?

Because I am an Adult and I actually have a modicum of self control ...just like I pass by the Blackjack tables and head straight for the Buffett and free show in Vegas, or walk by all those lottery tickets, etc etc

I just don't shake my fist at the fates because of my circumstances...if I want something I get it, but I also understand a little thing called moderation.

Honestly I find the whole "Think of the Children spiel Insincere and frankly laughable."

You and others who LOVE and ADORE your loot boxes and would continue to post in threads to protect them are the only ones who have uttered the phrase "Think of the Children" ...Even if that were the case and we expressed such concerns throughout, how is that a laughable concept?

Also.. I am well aware you never said you LOVE and ADORE your loot boxes and I know I colored you as someone who will go out of their way to voice their opinions in their defense... but do you see how gross hyperbolic responses are inaccurate? Can you please resist doing so even during a disagreement?

Amottica wrote: »

Lostar wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Lostar wrote: »

@jaws343
The game is rated for M (17+). Most casinos you must be 21 or older in order to gamble at their establishment.
The game has gambling so instead it should be labeled Ao along with the warring of gambling being present. If this hurts the games population, then that tells us just how much loot boxes do not belong in a fantasy MMORPG.

@Lostar

The minimum age requirement in most states for buying lottery tickets and participating in parimutuel betting is 18 in most states.

https://www.casino.org/local/guide/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK230619/

While most players do not like loot crates, including many who buy the crates (even though some clamor for them), they pay the bills. If Zenimax eliminated crates they would have to get more revenue from someplace such as increasing the cost of DLCs and ESO+ as well as charging significantly more for everything in the cash shop.

This is reality speaking here yet I do not see people complaining about the crown crates suggestions they are willing to pay double what they pay now if crates disappear. Since many already complain about the cost of mounts, outfit/armory slot, et all, this is unlikely to be a path Zenimax attempts willingly. If they are forced to cease selling crates it WILL be replaced and likely by something we might like a lot less.

Or something we like a lot more. Who can tell. It's all hypothetical. I would like ZOS to look at Sea of Thieves and see how they do battle passes, tie them into ESO+, take out the daily login rewards (that's just another tool to build "Habit" in the Hook>Habit>Hobby methodology) and instead offer them inside the season pass as the "free base version" of the season pass (as Sea of Thieves) and perhaps a middle tier that comes with ESO+ for the season that gives you slightly better rewards (the middle tier rewards from loot crate) and then the Apex tier is $5 for that season and that gives you the shinies throughout that season.

Check out how Sea of Thieves does it to get a feel for what I am talking about. Sea of Thieves isn't for everyone, I know.. but monetization doesn't determine the quality of a game or the interest in playing it (well, at least, it shouldn't).

Yes, it is hypothetical. However, if Zenimax, or any of these companies that run these GaaS we like to play found a way to get the same amount of revenue via a means we like more they would already be doing it. This includes finding more to add to ESO+ Oh, and Hook > Habbit methodology is the core to success for a GaaS. It is why we have family writs, daily login rewards, etc. This industry is very well aware of it and thrives on it.

That is not hypothetical. It is reality.

Businesses tend to innovate when sales are poor or there is a lot of competition or when they reliant on it, not when things are going well. So no, they would not. They ARE brainstorming new ways to monetize and succeeding at it though in response to the legislative uncertainty. Despite the assertion that it's not hypothetical they'd already have innovated if they could, that absolutely remains to be seen. And is highly likely to be untrue given the success of battle passes.

Gnesnig wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

Gnesnig wrote: »

Heartrage wrote: »

Putting an equation for a price tag shouldn’t be legal.

Ok, so away with them evil volume-based discounts. Away with the elusive 2 for 1 deals. Obvious aside. You should expect to always get four lowest tier items. If the price then doesn't agree with you, move on. You introduce the deception yourself, by assuming the best possible scenario.

2 for 1 deals with loot boxes or Crowns? How so?

Not loot boxes, but examples of "equation/formula based pricing that are completely legal" (and exclude anyone bad at calculus, if we want to continue this protect the weak principle).

Huh? I am confused on exactly what you are saying is "2 for 1".

Gnesnig wrote: »

DagenHawk wrote: »

Yes Murdering is universally wrong...

It isn't. Sees-all-colors vs Yofnir in the game is the prime example, aka "Murdering for the greater good".

"To kill with intent" is the short description of murder. Which includes anyone killing in a war. Yet, there's plenty of people describing these murders as noble and it's definitely legislated.

Try that argument in a real court of law....

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Lostar wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Lostar wrote: »

@jaws343
The game is rated for M (17+). Most casinos you must be 21 or older in order to gamble at their establishment.
The game has gambling so instead it should be labeled Ao along with the warring of gambling being present. If this hurts the games population, then that tells us just how much loot boxes do not belong in a fantasy MMORPG.

@Lostar

The minimum age requirement in most states for buying lottery tickets and participating in parimutuel betting is 18 in most states.

https://www.casino.org/local/guide/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK230619/

While most players do not like loot crates, including many who buy the crates (even though some clamor for them), they pay the bills. If Zenimax eliminated crates they would have to get more revenue from someplace such as increasing the cost of DLCs and ESO+ as well as charging significantly more for everything in the cash shop.

This is reality speaking here yet I do not see people complaining about the crown crates suggestions they are willing to pay double what they pay now if crates disappear. Since many already complain about the cost of mounts, outfit/armory slot, et all, this is unlikely to be a path Zenimax attempts willingly. If they are forced to cease selling crates it WILL be replaced and likely by something we might like a lot less.

Or something we like a lot more. Who can tell. It's all hypothetical. I would like ZOS to look at Sea of Thieves and see how they do battle passes, tie them into ESO+, take out the daily login rewards (that's just another tool to build "Habit" in the Hook>Habit>Hobby methodology) and instead offer them inside the season pass as the "free base version" of the season pass (as Sea of Thieves) and perhaps a middle tier that comes with ESO+ for the season that gives you slightly better rewards (the middle tier rewards from loot crate) and then the Apex tier is $5 for that season and that gives you the shinies throughout that season.

Check out how Sea of Thieves does it to get a feel for what I am talking about. Sea of Thieves isn't for everyone, I know.. but monetization doesn't determine the quality of a game or the interest in playing it (well, at least, it shouldn't).

Yes, it is hypothetical. However, if Zenimax, or any of these companies that run these GaaS we like to play found a way to get the same amount of revenue via a means we like more they would already be doing it. This includes finding more to add to ESO+ Oh, and Hook > Habbit methodology is the core to success for a GaaS. It is why we have family writs, daily login rewards, etc. This industry is very well aware of it and thrives on it.

That is not hypothetical. It is reality.

Businesses tend to innovate when sales are poor or there is a lot of competition or when they reliant on it, not when things are going well. So no, they would not. They ARE brainstorming new ways to monetize and succeeding at it though in response to the legislative uncertainty. Despite the assertion that it's not hypothetical they'd already have innovated if they could, that absolutely remains to be seen. And is highly likely to be untrue given the success of battle passes.

Exactly! Game monetization is an ongoing concern for any game maker! Loot boxes are useful now, but they are not the only choice and would be dropped quickly if too many players were cut off due to legal concerns with them.

You may or may not like that, but I expect it is the trend.

Amottica wrote: »

Lostar wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Lostar wrote: »

@jaws343
The game is rated for M (17+). Most casinos you must be 21 or older in order to gamble at their establishment.
The game has gambling so instead it should be labeled Ao along with the warring of gambling being present. If this hurts the games population, then that tells us just how much loot boxes do not belong in a fantasy MMORPG.

@Lostar

The minimum age requirement in most states for buying lottery tickets and participating in parimutuel betting is 18 in most states.

https://www.casino.org/local/guide/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK230619/

While most players do not like loot crates, including many who buy the crates (even though some clamor for them), they pay the bills. If Zenimax eliminated crates they would have to get more revenue from someplace such as increasing the cost of DLCs and ESO+ as well as charging significantly more for everything in the cash shop.

This is reality speaking here yet I do not see people complaining about the crown crates suggestions they are willing to pay double what they pay now if crates disappear. Since many already complain about the cost of mounts, outfit/armory slot, et all, this is unlikely to be a path Zenimax attempts willingly. If they are forced to cease selling crates it WILL be replaced and likely by something we might like a lot less.

Or something we like a lot more. Who can tell. It's all hypothetical. I would like ZOS to look at Sea of Thieves and see how they do battle passes, tie them into ESO+, take out the daily login rewards (that's just another tool to build "Habit" in the Hook>Habit>Hobby methodology) and instead offer them inside the season pass as the "free base version" of the season pass (as Sea of Thieves) and perhaps a middle tier that comes with ESO+ for the season that gives you slightly better rewards (the middle tier rewards from loot crate) and then the Apex tier is $5 for that season and that gives you the shinies throughout that season.

Check out how Sea of Thieves does it to get a feel for what I am talking about. Sea of Thieves isn't for everyone, I know.. but monetization doesn't determine the quality of a game or the interest in playing it (well, at least, it shouldn't).

Yes, it is hypothetical. However, if Zenimax, or any of these companies that run these GaaS we like to play found a way to get the same amount of revenue via a means we like more they would already be doing it. This includes finding more to add to ESO+ Oh, and Hook > Habbit methodology is the core to success for a GaaS. It is why we have family writs, daily login rewards, etc. This industry is very well aware of it and thrives on it.

That is not hypothetical. It is reality.

Yeah but like games as a live service is already a failure. They're not necessarily succeeding so much as they are exploiting.

Developers are not stupid. They know they make money this way, but they're too stubborn to find another way that's less capitalistic because well society has birthed this. It's already hard for developers to make money.

Having said that, there is definitely a better way to monetize a game than loot boxes, they just don't have any reason to try because everyone is indifferent due to apathy or disregard of a bigger whole.

Crown crates are unlikely to go away, at least willingly. If we're discussing unlikely goals, pressing for better seals of endeavor rewards seems like a better choice. In the early weeks they were more generous, with daily totals of 60 somewhat common (and once, even 90). Now they tend to be only 30-45, which means someone who got all of them ever since their inception should have about 28k. That might seem like a high number, but it's 28k accumulated through 4 or more crate seasons, not to mention prices in the seal store are absurdly high.
So, improve rewards or lower prices and crate goodies will become more accessible.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Lostar wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Lostar wrote: »

@jaws343
The game is rated for M (17+). Most casinos you must be 21 or older in order to gamble at their establishment.
The game has gambling so instead it should be labeled Ao along with the warring of gambling being present. If this hurts the games population, then that tells us just how much loot boxes do not belong in a fantasy MMORPG.

@Lostar

The minimum age requirement in most states for buying lottery tickets and participating in parimutuel betting is 18 in most states.

https://www.casino.org/local/guide/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK230619/

While most players do not like loot crates, including many who buy the crates (even though some clamor for them), they pay the bills. If Zenimax eliminated crates they would have to get more revenue from someplace such as increasing the cost of DLCs and ESO+ as well as charging significantly more for everything in the cash shop.

This is reality speaking here yet I do not see people complaining about the crown crates suggestions they are willing to pay double what they pay now if crates disappear. Since many already complain about the cost of mounts, outfit/armory slot, et all, this is unlikely to be a path Zenimax attempts willingly. If they are forced to cease selling crates it WILL be replaced and likely by something we might like a lot less.

Or something we like a lot more. Who can tell. It's all hypothetical. I would like ZOS to look at Sea of Thieves and see how they do battle passes, tie them into ESO+, take out the daily login rewards (that's just another tool to build "Habit" in the Hook>Habit>Hobby methodology) and instead offer them inside the season pass as the "free base version" of the season pass (as Sea of Thieves) and perhaps a middle tier that comes with ESO+ for the season that gives you slightly better rewards (the middle tier rewards from loot crate) and then the Apex tier is $5 for that season and that gives you the shinies throughout that season.

Check out how Sea of Thieves does it to get a feel for what I am talking about. Sea of Thieves isn't for everyone, I know.. but monetization doesn't determine the quality of a game or the interest in playing it (well, at least, it shouldn't).

Yes, it is hypothetical. However, if Zenimax, or any of these companies that run these GaaS we like to play found a way to get the same amount of revenue via a means we like more they would already be doing it. This includes finding more to add to ESO+ Oh, and Hook > Habbit methodology is the core to success for a GaaS. It is why we have family writs, daily login rewards, etc. This industry is very well aware of it and thrives on it.

That is not hypothetical. It is reality.

Businesses tend to innovate when sales are poor or there is a lot of competition or when they reliant on it, not when things are going well. So no, they would not. They ARE brainstorming new ways to monetize and succeeding at it though in response to the legislative uncertainty. Despite the assertion that it's not hypothetical they'd already have innovated if they could, that absolutely remains to be seen. And is highly likely to be untrue given the success of battle passes.

Battle Pass is essentially a subscription to gain more rewards from playing Fortnite. ESO already has a subscription which grants more benefits and essentialy rewards via the cash shop. Further, Fortnite is a rather low-budget game compared to what ESO costs in continuous development costs. This is clearly not a solution for ESO.

But it does demonstrate that Zenimax would have to do something else to get us to pay more in order to replace the revenue crates being in now. There is no way around that if the game is to continue being healthy.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

RisenEclipse wrote: »

I'm just going to add my two cents here. But legally loot boxes are not gambling.

They are new thing that either haven't been ruled and legislated on yet (and thus neither are or aren't gambling) or they have been declared gambling and had restrictions placed on their sale. It depends on the country. Belgium for example has totally outlawed their sale. You make it sound like this is settled law. When not only is that absolutely not the case, but the legal momentum is against that assertion. Some countries have already declared them gambling, and others are looking at their own legislation about what regulations should be instituted.

https://screenrant.com/lootbox-gambling-microtransactions-illegal-japan-china-belgium-netherlands/

I think... people are getting a little too uh... emotional right now. I said legally they are not considered gambling. As in not recognized by their country's laws as gambling. Which is true. Even in the article you posted (and screen rant lol) only one country it actually stated recognized it as gambling. Belgium. So I should edit my response as IT IS LEGALLY NOT CONSIDERED GAMBLING UNLESS YOU'RE IN BELGIUM. Better? The others just put restrictions on it and it never actually mentions ESOs lootboxes as gambling (China just added a give a number to the chances of getting the items and doesn't even mention if it legally recognized loot boxes as gambling), and Netherlands considered it akin to bingo as long as nothing of rl value was inside the boxes, and as long as the items can't be traded (and no the cool skin you wanted is nothing of real value in rl). Do I think they're gambling? Sure. Do I think they're bad? Sure. Will countries later on consider them as gambling and ban them. Maybe. But a county needs to recognize it in its LAWS that its gambling, and restrict it along with everything else that is also considered gambling. In fact most countries can't do anything about loot boxes until it is LEGALLY considered gambling. In the UK the Gmbling Commission has said the Gambling Act 2005 does not cover loot boxes and it therefore cannot use any of its regulatory powers to take action.

That's what that simple sentence is about. But you go ahead and take it as me saying LOOT BOXES ARE GOOD! I DECLARE THAT THEY ARE LEGAL! I SHALL STAND IN THE WAY OF YOUR OPINION OF WANTING TO REMOVE THEM FROM THE GAME! Or whatever 1000 other things you got from a simple sentence that apparent was blown to space and outside our solar system...

Amottica wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Lostar wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Lostar wrote: »

@jaws343
The game is rated for M (17+). Most casinos you must be 21 or older in order to gamble at their establishment.
The game has gambling so instead it should be labeled Ao along with the warring of gambling being present. If this hurts the games population, then that tells us just how much loot boxes do not belong in a fantasy MMORPG.

@Lostar

The minimum age requirement in most states for buying lottery tickets and participating in parimutuel betting is 18 in most states.

https://www.casino.org/local/guide/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK230619/

While most players do not like loot crates, including many who buy the crates (even though some clamor for them), they pay the bills. If Zenimax eliminated crates they would have to get more revenue from someplace such as increasing the cost of DLCs and ESO+ as well as charging significantly more for everything in the cash shop.

This is reality speaking here yet I do not see people complaining about the crown crates suggestions they are willing to pay double what they pay now if crates disappear. Since many already complain about the cost of mounts, outfit/armory slot, et all, this is unlikely to be a path Zenimax attempts willingly. If they are forced to cease selling crates it WILL be replaced and likely by something we might like a lot less.

Or something we like a lot more. Who can tell. It's all hypothetical. I would like ZOS to look at Sea of Thieves and see how they do battle passes, tie them into ESO+, take out the daily login rewards (that's just another tool to build "Habit" in the Hook>Habit>Hobby methodology) and instead offer them inside the season pass as the "free base version" of the season pass (as Sea of Thieves) and perhaps a middle tier that comes with ESO+ for the season that gives you slightly better rewards (the middle tier rewards from loot crate) and then the Apex tier is $5 for that season and that gives you the shinies throughout that season.

Check out how Sea of Thieves does it to get a feel for what I am talking about. Sea of Thieves isn't for everyone, I know.. but monetization doesn't determine the quality of a game or the interest in playing it (well, at least, it shouldn't).

Yes, it is hypothetical. However, if Zenimax, or any of these companies that run these GaaS we like to play found a way to get the same amount of revenue via a means we like more they would already be doing it. This includes finding more to add to ESO+ Oh, and Hook > Habbit methodology is the core to success for a GaaS. It is why we have family writs, daily login rewards, etc. This industry is very well aware of it and thrives on it.

That is not hypothetical. It is reality.

Businesses tend to innovate when sales are poor or there is a lot of competition or when they reliant on it, not when things are going well. So no, they would not. They ARE brainstorming new ways to monetize and succeeding at it though in response to the legislative uncertainty. Despite the assertion that it's not hypothetical they'd already have innovated if they could, that absolutely remains to be seen. And is highly likely to be untrue given the success of battle passes.

Battle Pass is essentially a subscription to gain more rewards from playing Fortnite.

Battlepasses are not a sub, nor are they limited to Fortnite. Plenty of them are just spending hooks to earn cosmetics through play or cash. It would be very easy for ESO to offer radiant apexes in this manner.

Heartrage wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Lostar wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Lostar wrote: »

@jaws343
The game is rated for M (17+). Most casinos you must be 21 or older in order to gamble at their establishment.
The game has gambling so instead it should be labeled Ao along with the warring of gambling being present. If this hurts the games population, then that tells us just how much loot boxes do not belong in a fantasy MMORPG.

@Lostar

The minimum age requirement in most states for buying lottery tickets and participating in parimutuel betting is 18 in most states.

https://www.casino.org/local/guide/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK230619/

While most players do not like loot crates, including many who buy the crates (even though some clamor for them), they pay the bills. If Zenimax eliminated crates they would have to get more revenue from someplace such as increasing the cost of DLCs and ESO+ as well as charging significantly more for everything in the cash shop.

This is reality speaking here yet I do not see people complaining about the crown crates suggestions they are willing to pay double what they pay now if crates disappear. Since many already complain about the cost of mounts, outfit/armory slot, et all, this is unlikely to be a path Zenimax attempts willingly. If they are forced to cease selling crates it WILL be replaced and likely by something we might like a lot less.

Or something we like a lot more. Who can tell. It's all hypothetical. I would like ZOS to look at Sea of Thieves and see how they do battle passes, tie them into ESO+, take out the daily login rewards (that's just another tool to build "Habit" in the Hook>Habit>Hobby methodology) and instead offer them inside the season pass as the "free base version" of the season pass (as Sea of Thieves) and perhaps a middle tier that comes with ESO+ for the season that gives you slightly better rewards (the middle tier rewards from loot crate) and then the Apex tier is $5 for that season and that gives you the shinies throughout that season.

Check out how Sea of Thieves does it to get a feel for what I am talking about. Sea of Thieves isn't for everyone, I know.. but monetization doesn't determine the quality of a game or the interest in playing it (well, at least, it shouldn't).

Yes, it is hypothetical. However, if Zenimax, or any of these companies that run these GaaS we like to play found a way to get the same amount of revenue via a means we like more they would already be doing it. This includes finding more to add to ESO+ Oh, and Hook > Habbit methodology is the core to success for a GaaS. It is why we have family writs, daily login rewards, etc. This industry is very well aware of it and thrives on it.

That is not hypothetical. It is reality.

Businesses tend to innovate when sales are poor or there is a lot of competition or when they reliant on it, not when things are going well. So no, they would not. They ARE brainstorming new ways to monetize and succeeding at it though in response to the legislative uncertainty. Despite the assertion that it's not hypothetical they'd already have innovated if they could, that absolutely remains to be seen. And is highly likely to be untrue given the success of battle passes.

Battle Pass is essentially a subscription to gain more rewards from playing Fortnite. ESO already has a subscription which grants more benefits and essentialy rewards via the cash shop. Further, Fortnite is a rather low-budget game compared to what ESO costs in continuous development costs. This is clearly not a solution for ESO.

But it does demonstrate that Zenimax would have to do something else to get us to pay more in order to replace the revenue crates being in now. There is no way around that if the game is to continue being healthy.

Well, to begin, they would sell directly what we could get in the crates in the store. They would also probably cycle more between the different crates content and make them available for durations that create more fomo.

I am sure they would sell more items directly to us which I think we all can agree would be a good thing. However, if they could make the same revenue doing that as they do selling crates then we would not have crates.

So costs would likely a notable increase.