Why Loot Boxes ARE an issue

Nightowl_74 · June 2022

I enjoy buying one of the 1500 crown sets with every season, but it seems silly to me that those top tier rewards exist and it wouldn't bother me in the least if they did away with them. I'd still buy my set, because I'm doing it for the fun of getting a couple random pets or other of the "lesser" rewards. I like that randomness, however the apex rewards seem to be what everyone gets worked up about and I never get (or expect to get) those and it wouldn't bother me if they were removed altogether. Without changing the drop rates of the remaining items.

spartaxoxo · June 2022

Frikgrim wrote: »

Now, can someone show me where an addict is having a problem with these loot crates?

https://www.ign.com/articles/heres-how-loot-box-addiction-destroys-lives
https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2019-08-08-loot-boxes-a-matter-of-life-or-death
https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-56614281
https://mashable.com/article/19-gaming-gambling-addict

eta:

It's not a hypothetical. There's some early research on this, and testimonials you can find online of ruined lives. This is why Belgium has banned them entirely. I don't think they need to be banned entirely, but they should require an M rating, disclose odds in-game, and other such safety features so people can engage with an informed way, and understand how the are gambling and the impulses they can trigger.

Lostar · June 2022

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Frikgrim wrote: »

Now, can someone show me where an addict is having a problem with these loot crates?

https://www.reddit.com/r/Overwatch/comments/9k7yzo/loot_box_gambling_ruined_my_life/
https://www.ign.com/articles/heres-how-loot-box-addiction-destroys-lives
https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2019-08-08-loot-boxes-a-matter-of-life-or-death
https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-56614281
https://mashable.com/article/19-gaming-gambling-addict

Thank you for posting these. I read the Reddit post and my jaw dropped… and then I quickly realized this was a satire … And then my heart sank when I saw every following response. People who fall prey are ridiculed and stigmatized and made a joke of and this is exactly the behavior gaming companies want from us.

It’s discussed in the original video concerning social constructs and how to inform behavior in people by using their peers to reinforce the idea that spending money on loot boxes is acceptable.. and doing it (gambling) in an unhealthy manner means you are weak willed and a fool. This is how the game industry wants us to treat one another and it is unethical.

I’ll read the rest of the articles now. Thank you for sharing.

spartaxoxo · June 2022

Lostar wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Frikgrim wrote: »

Now, can someone show me where an addict is having a problem with these loot crates?

https://www.reddit.com/r/Overwatch/comments/9k7yzo/loot_box_gambling_ruined_my_life/
https://www.ign.com/articles/heres-how-loot-box-addiction-destroys-lives
https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2019-08-08-loot-boxes-a-matter-of-life-or-death
https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-56614281
https://mashable.com/article/19-gaming-gambling-addict

Thank you for posting these. I read the Reddit post and my jaw dropped… and then I quickly realized this was a satire … And then my heart sank when I saw every following response. People who fall prey are ridiculed and stigmatized and made a joke of and this is exactly the behavior gaming companies want from us.

It’s discussed in the original video concerning social constructs and how to inform behavior in people by using their peers to reinforce the idea that spending money on loot boxes is acceptable.. and doing it (gambling) in an unhealthy manner means you are weak willed and a fool. This is how the game industry wants us to treat one another and it is unethical.

I’ll read the rest of the articles now. Thank you for sharing.

Oh shoot, I skimmed it and missed that one. I'll delete it. I should have been more thorough, but was just trying to grab them quick. Thanks for the heads up!

Lostar · June 2022

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Lostar wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Frikgrim wrote: »

Now, can someone show me where an addict is having a problem with these loot crates?

https://www.reddit.com/r/Overwatch/comments/9k7yzo/loot_box_gambling_ruined_my_life/
https://www.ign.com/articles/heres-how-loot-box-addiction-destroys-lives
https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2019-08-08-loot-boxes-a-matter-of-life-or-death
https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-56614281
https://mashable.com/article/19-gaming-gambling-addict

Thank you for posting these. I read the Reddit post and my jaw dropped… and then I quickly realized this was a satire … And then my heart sank when I saw every following response. People who fall prey are ridiculed and stigmatized and made a joke of and this is exactly the behavior gaming companies want from us.

It’s discussed in the original video concerning social constructs and how to inform behavior in people by using their peers to reinforce the idea that spending money on loot boxes is acceptable.. and doing it (gambling) in an unhealthy manner means you are weak willed and a fool. This is how the game industry wants us to treat one another and it is unethical.

I’ll read the rest of the articles now. Thank you for sharing.

Oh shoot, I skimmed it and missed that one. I'll delete it.

It’s still a useful post as far as showing why people do not come out and admit their struggles. It demonstrates the overall tone the community as a whole has; at best, apathy for the person. At worst… this. A joke post, or not, this is the reaction people who have fallen prey to loot box gambling fears should they speak up.

yoyo420232 · June 2022

Lostar wrote: »

yoyo420232 wrote: »

I personally like the loot boxes and I’m not seeing the issue zos made it so people can gift crowns for gold I have spent millions on crown crates and as I see it I’m trading a game currency for a chance at fancy cash shop items it costs me zero real money for anything I want from the store the store only gets me if they have some sweet fancy new house but all my loot boxes are usually bought with in game gold

So you have no issues with the gambling of loot crates because it’s not even your money that you’re risking. But you are gambling your time that you spent acquiring in the gold. Despite your lack of issues with gambling it does not mean others do not have this issue. I’m sure you can agree that we each have our own struggles and when a system is built from the ground up to exploit that struggle it is a problem.

This game is essentially a time gamble for everything I usually hunt for expensive items to sell in the traders and use the millions I make to buy the loot boxes with gold I find it’s an easier way to get the thing I want without draining my bank account I understand people have addiction issues but we don’t see liquor stores being shut down because we have alcoholics and those alcoholics will go to other means to get their fix while people feel how they want about the crown store there is very little there that’s pay to win and almost everything can be obtained without spending any real world money at all sure it might be slow and grindy but that’s the point if you want that new shiney thing fast then unfortunately you will have to pay for it or wait until you have enough gold or endever seals

Lostar · June 2022

Also keep in mind M rating means a 17 year old can still buy the game and it is considered appropriate for them.

What the game needs, should there be gambling in it, is a visible ESRB label that includes “real world money gambling” alongside where they would list “graphic violence” (as an example).

The ESRB label for ESO is already M and does not make mention of real world money gambling.

It needs to be Ao (Adult Only).

This is the kiss of death to most games. But loot boxes are the kiss of death to many gamers who are not hypothetical and are just as valued, and yes, entitled to being able to have healthy access to gaming entertainment, games that have no business including real-world money being used for gambling. And I care far more about the well-being of my fellow gamers and the artists that develop our games, far more than the investors who suck the life out of our game with their predatory monetization.

The MMO's available that do not have loot boxes are shrinking and it really hurts when you are as in love with the Elder Scrolls IP as I am.

Heartrage · June 2022

@jaws343
I don’t know why you would defend lootboxes on the basis of adult’s right to decision taking/choice making.

Decision taking is based on utilizing information and understanding information. If you can’t understand or have information, you can’t make good decisions.

Lootboxes are designed to muddle the information for decision taking. Their real price is disguised with real currency conversion to crown, you need to search for the tier loot probabilities and you have to calculate yourself to know the odds of getting what you want and how much you have to pay to get it.

Most people can’t calculate that and even if they do or have it calculated by someone else, it’s hard for the human mind to process and grasp how probabilities work.

Lootboxes are deceptive, they hide the prices of what they hold to make people overpay. Putting an equation for a price tag shouldn’t be legal.

jaws343 · June 2022

Heartrage wrote: »

@jaws343
I don’t know why you would defend lootboxes on the basis of adult’s right to decision taking/choice making.

Decision taking is based on utilizing information and understanding information. If you can’t understand or have information, you can’t make good decisions.

Lootboxes are designed to muddle the information for decision taking. Their real price is disguised with real currency conversion to crown, you need to search for the tier loot probabilities and you have to calculate yourself to know the odds of getting what you want and how much you have to pay to get it.

Most people can’t calculate that and even if they do or have it calculated by someone else, it’s hard for the human mind to process and grasp how probabilities work.

Lootboxes are deceptive, they hide the prices of what they hold to make people overpay. Putting an equation for a price tag shouldn’t be legal.

I make a decision to spend some money every year on crowns. That is my spending decision. I bought crowns.

I may then use some of those crowns to buy crates, I may use all of them for that. I may use some of those crowns to buy non crate things. But even if I spend all of it on crates, I have already made the decision to essentially spend that money on the game for no real world, tangible return. That is the decision.

So, then say I buy crates. I get exactly what I am paying for, a bunch of randomized rewards with a minimum outcome above zero. Maybe I get some cool things, maybe I get a bunch of stuff I don't need/want that I can convert to gems to grab a few things I think would look cool. The decision making point is in being an adult and not spending more than I am willing/able to on the crowns.

This year, I didn't care too much for the items in the crates, so, as an adult, I made a decision to not buy any. To not spend my money on them, because I didn't feel like there was anything I cared to have. But that was my decision. No one coerced me to buy them anyways, just because. The odds had no bearing on any of the decisions that I have or will make regarding crates.

The decision is, am I willing to part with ~150$ this year for some crowns? If yes, I buy them, if no, I move on with my life.

What I don't need is a bunch of video gaming white knights trying to micromanage how and where I spend my money, and trying to tell me they know best for me.

FlopsyPrince · June 2022

spartaxoxo wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

Crown crates are not gambling. You purchase a crown crate knowing it will give you a minimum number of items. You always get at least that minimum number. Crown crates are no more gambling than trading cards that come with a stick of gum are gambling.
That said I would prefer they got rid of the crown crates and maybe even the crown store altogether and went back to a required subscription to play.

This is a common misconception. I seriously doubt anyone buys them for what they normally contain. They buy them for the "nicer" items (mounts for me almost exclusively).

Thus they are clearly gambling and I believe they are now banned in the EU if I follow things right (I may not of course).

They are outright banned in Belgium and face new regulations in other countries, because they are obviously gambling. This is the reason that ZOS added seals, so that you weren't risking money for a chance at an item you had no other way to obtain from Zenimax.

barney2525 wrote: »

Malthorne wrote: »

Crown crates are 100% gambling. The sooner the US and EU implement loot box legislation to ban this predatory practice, the better.

No.

Its simply timing. Accumulating gems takes time.

Something you want costs 400 gems. You accumulate gems through various methods- buying crates, watching Twitch.

At some point you will have enough gems to buy what you want - unless you are lucky and it pops sooner for you, from a crate.

And since 100% of crates are Cosmetic - there is literally Nothing a player Needs from any crate in order to improve the character's competitiveness in the game. Crates are : " I Want " ... Not : " I NEED " .

Gems are a scam. You only get 1/4 the value of something.

Frikgrim wrote: »

Here's something I'd almost guarantee.

If ZOS were to remove the loot boxes, but left the path to get those items to be endeavors, we'd soon learn that loot crates were never the problem, but rather it's endeavors.

Then, if ZOS put a hefty price tag on the items, instead of using the endeavors, we'd learn from the same people that it wasn't really loot crates or endeavors that are the problem. It's, instead, having to pay the hefty price for what they want. . .

The line will always be shifted by those complaining, until they get what they want straight up handed to them for no effort and with no cost. And until that happens, every system ZOS will put those items behind will be "nefarious, evil, illegal, exploitive," or whatever language they can muster up to make their banner of "Me, Myself, and I" appear like it's a chivalrous banner to "protect the community."

Loot crates were here long before endeavors. Blaming endeavors is not appropriate.

The drop rate in loot boxes seems to have gone down as well, since I started playing 5 years ago at least.

They would not sell the fancy mounts to many if they cost their true direct cost and especially if that cost was in real dollars. That would be masked a bit with Crowns, but would still be around. And the fact that Crowns are tied to the device you play on (Specific console, PC, etc.) is also immoral. They are not tied to your account, even if those devices are all connected to your ESO account! (I have a large chunk of Crowns on the PS4 that will now never see use. No way to transfer them or use them on my PC game. REALLY ANNOYING!

It is not surprising, but it is still amazing how many give these and the entire Crown system knee jerk support with such huge flaws as well!

I HATE almost all government regulation, but I won't shed a tear when loot boxes are banned in the US.

And whoever said they will never go away is foolish. They will when they become unprofitable, which would happen if they were banned across the EU and in the US, for example.

Lostar · June 2022

jaws343 wrote: »

Heartrage wrote: »

@jaws343
I don’t know why you would defend lootboxes on the basis of adult’s right to decision taking/choice making.

Decision taking is based on utilizing information and understanding information. If you can’t understand or have information, you can’t make good decisions.

Lootboxes are designed to muddle the information for decision taking. Their real price is disguised with real currency conversion to crown, you need to search for the tier loot probabilities and you have to calculate yourself to know the odds of getting what you want and how much you have to pay to get it.

Most people can’t calculate that and even if they do or have it calculated by someone else, it’s hard for the human mind to process and grasp how probabilities work.

Lootboxes are deceptive, they hide the prices of what they hold to make people overpay. Putting an equation for a price tag shouldn’t be legal.

I make a decision to spend some money every year on crowns. That is my spending decision. I bought crowns.

I may then use some of those crowns to buy crates, I may use all of them for that. I may use some of those crowns to buy non crate things. But even if I spend all of it on crates, I have already made the decision to essentially spend that money on the game for no real world, tangible return. That is the decision.

So, then say I buy crates. I get exactly what I am paying for, a bunch of randomized rewards with a minimum outcome above zero. Maybe I get some cool things, maybe I get a bunch of stuff I don't need/want that I can convert to gems to grab a few things I think would look cool. The decision making point is in being an adult and not spending more than I am willing/able to on the crowns.

This year, I didn't care too much for the items in the crates, so, as an adult, I made a decision to not buy any. To not spend my money on them, because I didn't feel like there was anything I cared to have. But that was my decision. No one coerced me to buy them anyways, just because. The odds had no bearing on any of the decisions that I have or will make regarding crates.

The decision is, am I willing to part with ~150$ this year for some crowns? If yes, I buy them, if no, I move on with my life.

What I don't need is a bunch of video gaming white knights trying to micromanage how and where I spend my money, and trying to tell me they know best for me.

No one is trying to micromanage you.

Would you be negatively impacted by the removal of crown crates? Would you quit ESO if they took them out and redistributed the prizes in some healthier fashion like a battle pass tied to ESO+ in some way?

FlopsyPrince · June 2022

Heartrage wrote: »

@Frikgrim
The problem with lootcrates is that the hefty price is still there. It’s just hidden with Rng and a difficulty of the human mind to deal with probabilities. The rare mounts in eso probably cost over 50$ in lootcrates to get one in average. If they sold the mounts directly, they probably couldn’t get away with prices like these and people would actually have the mount they wanted from the set instead of betting and getting disappointed most of the time.

That is a low price. I would bet it is much higher.

I decided to give the game a chunk of money on the last Crown sale and bought a bunch of loot boxes afterward. I think I got 1 sparkly red pony across 6 sets of 15, though I didn't write down the exact numbers. It was far below satisfying. I did get the circus bear before, but I really wanted the circus cat instead. No way I would spend enough to get the latter however.

Yes, I do have some disposable income, but I still need to be smart(er) with what I spend it on!

Gnesnig · June 2022

Heartrage wrote: »

Putting an equation for a price tag shouldn’t be legal.

Ok, so away with them evil volume-based discounts. Away with the elusive 2 for 1 deals. Obvious aside. You should expect to always get four lowest tier items. If the price then doesn't agree with you, move on. You introduce the deception yourself, by assuming the best possible scenario.

FlopsyPrince · June 2022

Gnesnig wrote: »

Heartrage wrote: »

Putting an equation for a price tag shouldn’t be legal.

Ok, so away with them evil volume-based discounts. Away with the elusive 2 for 1 deals. Obvious aside. You should expect to always get four lowest tier items. If the price then doesn't agree with you, move on. You introduce the deception yourself, by assuming the best possible scenario.

2 for 1 deals with loot boxes or Crowns? How so?

jaws343 · June 2022

Lostar wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Heartrage wrote: »

@jaws343
I don’t know why you would defend lootboxes on the basis of adult’s right to decision taking/choice making.

Decision taking is based on utilizing information and understanding information. If you can’t understand or have information, you can’t make good decisions.

Lootboxes are designed to muddle the information for decision taking. Their real price is disguised with real currency conversion to crown, you need to search for the tier loot probabilities and you have to calculate yourself to know the odds of getting what you want and how much you have to pay to get it.

Most people can’t calculate that and even if they do or have it calculated by someone else, it’s hard for the human mind to process and grasp how probabilities work.

Lootboxes are deceptive, they hide the prices of what they hold to make people overpay. Putting an equation for a price tag shouldn’t be legal.

I make a decision to spend some money every year on crowns. That is my spending decision. I bought crowns.

I may then use some of those crowns to buy crates, I may use all of them for that. I may use some of those crowns to buy non crate things. But even if I spend all of it on crates, I have already made the decision to essentially spend that money on the game for no real world, tangible return. That is the decision.

So, then say I buy crates. I get exactly what I am paying for, a bunch of randomized rewards with a minimum outcome above zero. Maybe I get some cool things, maybe I get a bunch of stuff I don't need/want that I can convert to gems to grab a few things I think would look cool. The decision making point is in being an adult and not spending more than I am willing/able to on the crowns.

This year, I didn't care too much for the items in the crates, so, as an adult, I made a decision to not buy any. To not spend my money on them, because I didn't feel like there was anything I cared to have. But that was my decision. No one coerced me to buy them anyways, just because. The odds had no bearing on any of the decisions that I have or will make regarding crates.

The decision is, am I willing to part with ~150$ this year for some crowns? If yes, I buy them, if no, I move on with my life.

What I don't need is a bunch of video gaming white knights trying to micromanage how and where I spend my money, and trying to tell me they know best for me.

No one is trying to micromanage you.

Would you be negatively impacted by the removal of crown crates? Would you quit ESO if they took them out and redistributed the prizes in some healthier fashion like a battle pass tied to ESO+ in some way?

Would I be negatively impacted by the removal of an optional rewards function, in favor of one that usually requires a subscription of some kind, and an even unhealthier level of in game grind than random boxes? Yeah, likely.

Fhritz · June 2022

Crown crate would be problematic if they were P2W, or with item unobtainable otherwise. It's not the case, since there's only cosmetic items and you can always do endeavors (yes, it'll require time, but eventually you'll be able to purchase anything). I obtained my first and ONLY radiant mount with endeavors, without that much effort (I wasn't doing every endeavors daily).

You can either choose to be patient (and miss some opportunities sometimes) or purchase a chance to obtain the desired item.

Lostar · June 2022

jaws343 wrote: »

Lostar wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Heartrage wrote: »

@jaws343
I don’t know why you would defend lootboxes on the basis of adult’s right to decision taking/choice making.

Decision taking is based on utilizing information and understanding information. If you can’t understand or have information, you can’t make good decisions.

Lootboxes are designed to muddle the information for decision taking. Their real price is disguised with real currency conversion to crown, you need to search for the tier loot probabilities and you have to calculate yourself to know the odds of getting what you want and how much you have to pay to get it.

Most people can’t calculate that and even if they do or have it calculated by someone else, it’s hard for the human mind to process and grasp how probabilities work.

Lootboxes are deceptive, they hide the prices of what they hold to make people overpay. Putting an equation for a price tag shouldn’t be legal.

I make a decision to spend some money every year on crowns. That is my spending decision. I bought crowns.

I may then use some of those crowns to buy crates, I may use all of them for that. I may use some of those crowns to buy non crate things. But even if I spend all of it on crates, I have already made the decision to essentially spend that money on the game for no real world, tangible return. That is the decision.

So, then say I buy crates. I get exactly what I am paying for, a bunch of randomized rewards with a minimum outcome above zero. Maybe I get some cool things, maybe I get a bunch of stuff I don't need/want that I can convert to gems to grab a few things I think would look cool. The decision making point is in being an adult and not spending more than I am willing/able to on the crowns.

This year, I didn't care too much for the items in the crates, so, as an adult, I made a decision to not buy any. To not spend my money on them, because I didn't feel like there was anything I cared to have. But that was my decision. No one coerced me to buy them anyways, just because. The odds had no bearing on any of the decisions that I have or will make regarding crates.

The decision is, am I willing to part with ~150$ this year for some crowns? If yes, I buy them, if no, I move on with my life.

What I don't need is a bunch of video gaming white knights trying to micromanage how and where I spend my money, and trying to tell me they know best for me.

No one is trying to micromanage you.

Would you be negatively impacted by the removal of crown crates? Would you quit ESO if they took them out and redistributed the prizes in some healthier fashion like a battle pass tied to ESO+ in some way?

Would I be negatively impacted by the removal of an optional rewards function, in favor of one that usually requires a subscription of some kind, and an even unhealthier level of in game grind than random boxes? Yeah, likely.

Please explain how battle passes are (or even have to be) an even unhealthier level of in-game grind? I'll be upfront; my only experience with battle passes is in Sea of Thieves. The base battle pass is free to all (which I love). I wasn't too much of a fan of the cherry blossom aesthetic so I skipped buying the $9 pass this season but I still got a lot of really neat rewards simply by playing the game as I always do. Sea of Thieves does battle passes right. They do not have to be awful experiences. And I really doubt Zenimax will make them awful experiences if they are used in the exchange of loot crate revenue; they have to entice their player base to engage with them.

I'm 40 years old. I have a surplus of disposable income. I want the items inside the loot crate. I do not want to engage in gambling to get these items that I want for reasons tied into how I personally enjoy the game that makes cosmetics more essential to me than it does to raiders and pvpers.

Lostar · June 2022

Also;

More evidence that ZOS did not like to even put the (lousy bandaid) endeavors in the game; You cannot preview ANYTHING from the seals of endeavors store. They want to remind you that there is a "purchase with real cash" method by hiding all their previewing functionality in the cash shop side.

This was intentional.

Heartrage · June 2022

@jaws343
Nobody is micromanaging you or even thinking about making you do something. It’s about making Zos change their practices to sell in a way that’s ethical. If you don’t care about knowing how much the things you buy cost, more power to you. It’s not about how you buy it’s about how they sell.

It is entirely fair to ask Zos to put price tags that actually reflect what we are going to pay in a way we can understand. It’s also our right as consumers to complain if those price tags are too steep.

<snip>

DagenHawk · June 2022

I just don't see why threads like this stay open..no one is going to convince the other of their position...and all that will be taken away is hard feelings.

jaws343 · June 2022

Heartrage wrote: »

@jaws343
Nobody is micromanaging you or even thinking about making you do something. It’s about making Zos change their practices to sell in a way that’s ethical. If you don’t care about knowing how much the things you buy cost, more power to you. It’s not about how you buy it’s about how they sell.

It is entirely fair to ask Zos to put price tags that actually reflect what we are going to pay in a way we can understand. It’s also our right as consumers to complain if those price tags are too steep.

<snip>

This entire thread is about removing an optional piece of content because people don't like it and because, maybe, some people with problems can't help themselves.

That is both trying to micromanage how others spend their money, by removing options for them to do so, and also doing so under the guise of a "think of the other people" argument.

<snipped for removed quote>

FlopsyPrince · June 2022

jaws343 wrote: »

Heartrage wrote: »

@jaws343
Nobody is micromanaging you or even thinking about making you do something. It’s about making Zos change their practices to sell in a way that’s ethical. If you don’t care about knowing how much the things you buy cost, more power to you. It’s not about how you buy it’s about how they sell.

It is entirely fair to ask Zos to put price tags that actually reflect what we are going to pay in a way we can understand. It’s also our right as consumers to complain if those price tags are too steep.

Also, white knight pointing isn’t productive in any way. I could as easily call you a sim p or a white knight for Zos and this would get us nowhere.

This entire thread is about removing an optional piece of content because people don't like it and because, maybe, some people with problems can't help themselves.

That is both trying to micromanage how others spend their money, by removing options for them to do so, and also doing so under the guise of a "think of the other people" argument.

No, the entire thread is about an immoral practice that is getting legislative attention and is highly likely to get banned in many countries soon.

DagenHawk · June 2022

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

No, the entire thread is about an immoral practice that is getting legislative attention and is highly likely to get banned in many countries soon.

You can't legislate morality...your Morals are not Bobo's Morals and you can't shove your Morals down Bobo's throat...not in The United States at least.

I love my Country and all who dwell in it :-)

Lostar · June 2022

DagenHawk wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

No, the entire thread is about an immoral practice that is getting legislative attention and is highly likely to get banned in many countries soon.

You can't legislate morality...your Morals are not Bobo's Morals and you can't shove your Morals down Bobo's throat...not in The United States at least.

I love my Country and all who dwell in it :-)

Oh yes, you certainly can. Many of our laws are made because what we as a society have agreed on what is immoral.

Gnesnig · June 2022

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

Gnesnig wrote: »

Heartrage wrote: »

Putting an equation for a price tag shouldn’t be legal.

Ok, so away with them evil volume-based discounts. Away with the elusive 2 for 1 deals. Obvious aside. You should expect to always get four lowest tier items. If the price then doesn't agree with you, move on. You introduce the deception yourself, by assuming the best possible scenario.

2 for 1 deals with loot boxes or Crowns? How so?

Not loot boxes, but examples of "equation/formula based pricing that are completely legal" (and exclude anyone bad at calculus, if we want to continue this protect the weak principle).

DagenHawk · June 2022

Lostar wrote: »

DagenHawk wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

No, the entire thread is about an immoral practice that is getting legislative attention and is highly likely to get banned in many countries soon.

You can't legislate morality...your Morals are not Bobo's Morals and you can't shove your Morals down Bobo's throat...not in The United States at least.

I love my Country and all who dwell in it :-)

Oh yes, you certainly can.

Uh yeah...that's how you get 1984 and the Handmaids tale. Legislation like that is temporary, and usually ends violently...most people are libertines when it comes down to it...that's why Oligarchs and Dictators never last that long....but hey thanks for letting all of us know how you want the world to be.

Lostar · June 2022

DagenHawk wrote: »

Lostar wrote: »

DagenHawk wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

No, the entire thread is about an immoral practice that is getting legislative attention and is highly likely to get banned in many countries soon.

You can't legislate morality...your Morals are not Bobo's Morals and you can't shove your Morals down Bobo's throat...not in The United States at least.

I love my Country and all who dwell in it :-)

Oh yes, you certainly can.

Uh yeah...that's how you get 1984 and the Handmaids tale. Legislation like that is temporary, and usually ends violently...most people are libertines when it comes down to it...that's why Oligarchs and Dictators never last that long....but hey thansk for letting all of us know how you want the world to be.

Murdering is immoral. It is outlawed. Things can get really long and really dark really fast on just how many laws are constructed for the reason to protect one another from many different forms of harm be it physical, emotional, or financial. Morality is deeply tied to our lawmaking already.

Trying to paint me in the light you are implying here is outright gross.

DagenHawk · June 2022

Lostar wrote: »

DagenHawk wrote: »

Lostar wrote: »

DagenHawk wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

No, the entire thread is about an immoral practice that is getting legislative attention and is highly likely to get banned in many countries soon.

You can't legislate morality...your Morals are not Bobo's Morals and you can't shove your Morals down Bobo's throat...not in The United States at least.

I love my Country and all who dwell in it :-)

Oh yes, you certainly can.

Uh yeah...that's how you get 1984 and the Handmaids tale. Legislation like that is temporary, and usually ends violently...most people are libertines when it comes down to it...that's why Oligarchs and Dictators never last that long....but hey thansk for letting all of us know how you want the world to be.

Murdering is immoral. It is outlawed. Things can get really long and really dark really fast on just how many laws are constructed for the reason to protect one another from many different forms of harm be it physical, emotional, or financial. Morality is deeply tied to our lawmaking already.

Yes Murdering is universally wrong...but you can't conflate that with crown crates Jim...I mean Carrie Nation tried to conflate Murder with Alcohol sales and it led to one of the most violent times in our history.

Just because you personally hate something doesn't mean you can force everyone else to not partake.

I think if you were that concerned about gambling you would go after the lotteries first...I have seen seniors spend their entire retirement checks on tickets...one would think that would be a bigger evil...but it isn't in reality a concern for the community thing it is a "Me, My, and I" thing.

I will sum up that we have this exact same thread every time there is something cool offered in the crown crates...I wonder what it is this time?

Amottica · June 2022

Lostar wrote: »

@jaws343
The game is rated for M (17+). Most casinos you must be 21 or older in order to gamble at their establishment.
The game has gambling so instead it should be labeled Ao along with the warring of gambling being present. If this hurts the games population, then that tells us just how much loot boxes do not belong in a fantasy MMORPG.

@Lostar

The minimum age requirement in most states for buying lottery tickets and participating in parimutuel betting is 18 in most states.

https://www.casino.org/local/guide/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK230619/

While most players do not like loot crates, including many who buy the crates (even though some clamor for them), they pay the bills. If Zenimax eliminated crates they would have to get more revenue from someplace such as increasing the cost of DLCs and ESO+ as well as charging significantly more for everything in the cash shop.

This is reality speaking here yet I do not see people complaining about the crown crates suggestions they are willing to pay double what they pay now if crates disappear. Since many already complain about the cost of mounts, outfit/armory slot, et all, this is unlikely to be a path Zenimax attempts willingly. If they are forced to cease selling crates it WILL be replaced and likely by something we might like a lot less.

Lostar · June 2022

DagenHawk wrote: »

Lostar wrote: »

DagenHawk wrote: »

Lostar wrote: »

DagenHawk wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

No, the entire thread is about an immoral practice that is getting legislative attention and is highly likely to get banned in many countries soon.

You can't legislate morality...your Morals are not Bobo's Morals and you can't shove your Morals down Bobo's throat...not in The United States at least.

I love my Country and all who dwell in it :-)

Oh yes, you certainly can.

Uh yeah...that's how you get 1984 and the Handmaids tale. Legislation like that is temporary, and usually ends violently...most people are libertines when it comes down to it...that's why Oligarchs and Dictators never last that long....but hey thansk for letting all of us know how you want the world to be.

Murdering is immoral. It is outlawed. Things can get really long and really dark really fast on just how many laws are constructed for the reason to protect one another from many different forms of harm be it physical, emotional, or financial. Morality is deeply tied to our lawmaking already.

Yes Murdering is universally wrong...but you can't conflate that with crown crates Jim...I mean Carrie Nation tried that and it led to one of the most violent times in our history.

Just because you personally hate something doesn't mean you can force everyone else to not partake.

You JUST conflated the whole issue by trying to pigeonhole my morality into the same space as... -- you know what. Seriously off the topic.

There have been others, as I have said myself.. if they instead remain, then there should be enforced measures that makes you the consumer aware of all the odds and the average monetary loss you can suffer for each item within the crown crate. This empowers the consumer.

There needs to be direct labeling on the game as you buy it that it is Ao (not just M) and "real world money gambling present" is included in the labeling so that the consumer who might very well have a gambling addiction already does not fall into this trap.

So several years back, one of my online friends was interested in what games I was playing. ESO was one of them and we got to talking. It did not occur to me that they had a gambling addiction and so when they joined me, .. well, after a few months they quit and they told me that they enjoyed the game but they couldn't just ignore the gamble boxes. I have since been very careful to who I refer the game. I shouldn't have to be. Game Studios need to step up and do the ethical thing ...

The original video I posted; the speaker, the one who covered all of the psychological elements involved in microtransactions, the video you likely did not watch.. he begins by saying. "And we can discuss the morality of this all towards the end if we have time <cheeky smirk and chuckle>"

They know what they are doing. They have known. How are you simply ok with being manipulated?