Why Loot Boxes ARE an issue

MindOfTheSwarm · June 2022

However, I should also say that yes, Crown Crates are a problem for people with addictive tendencies or buying problems. These are psychological issues that no company is responsible for. However, from and ethical stand point maybe there could be room for some kind of limit on how many crates you can buy. Maybe there could be an optional aspect to them.

For Example: Instead of getting a random resplendent, you simply get a resplendent card that lets you CHOOSE the one you want. Also, if a monthly limit on Crown Crates was implemented you could be guaranteed this resplendent choice if you reached the cap. (Although the chance for getting one would remain at any point). Another option is to simply have a new card that lets you choose any prize that is guaranteed to drop within the monthly cap.

If they set the cap at say 30 crates this would still pull in a decent amount of revenue while allowing everyone the chance to get at least one item they really want.

Another thing they could do, would be allowing any old prizes to be exchanged for gems at any time. Old cosmetics that no-one wants anymore could be recycled into gems, easing the cost and freeing up a cluttered menu.

This would do 2 things, first it would help take into account people with buying problems and show consideration and second it would guarantee one choice for that one item you really wanted.

Personally, I ignore crates altogether if there is nothing in I don't want.

thorwyn · June 2022

Seems that for some people the answer to addiction is to just not get addicted in the first place.

No.
The answer to addiction is is: if you are suffering from an addiction, make sure you stay away from activities that are triggering it.

There are lots of addictions out there and every one of them responds to certain triggers. Apparently, some people in this community only seem to care about this one group of gambling addicts. Not a single word about the trigger potential of perma-drunk Sereyne or Skooma pipes or whatever. For some reason, there is no room under the wings of protection for alcoholics and drug addicts. I wonder why. Maybe the reasons behind the calls for a ban are not as philantrophic as they appear.

rootkitronin · June 2022

thorwyn wrote: »

Seems that for some people the answer to addiction is to just not get addicted in the first place.

No.
The answer to addiction is is: if you are suffering from an addiction, make sure you stay away from activities that are triggering it.

There are lots of addictions out there and every one of them responds to certain triggers. Apparently, some people in this community only seem to care about this one group of gambling addicts. Not a single word about the trigger potential of perma-drunk Sereyne or Skooma pipes or whatever. For some reason, there is no room under the wings of protection for alcoholics and drug addicts. I wonder why. Maybe the reasons behind the calls for a ban are not as philantrophic as they appear.

Wait, so your solution is to only address addiction once it has already become a problem? I guess we're just going to conveniently ignore the whole prevention aspect of this issue - we'll deal with those people once they've already fallen through the cracks and the damage done?

As for drunken Sereyne and Skooma - no, not a single word as mentioned. Mostly because this topic isn't about a fictional drug and drunken talking cat, but rather very specifically about the very real issue of loot crates and gambling. If you're so concerned about the former, then by all means, raise the issue. Personally, I would love to see the argument for that.

But last time I checked, ZOS wasn't trying to sell us alcohol and skooma (kind of a shame to be honest) - they are however, trying to do everything they can to sell people loot crates - which btw, has been resulting in more and more content being removed from the game and locked behind a gambling mechanic, such as skins and other previously earnable items - there's a great post on the forums already that touches on that.

Anyway, the difference is, one is a very real and tangible problem, the other is not, and to try and compare them as one in the same is reaching... a lot.

saar · June 2022

What a grown adult decides to do with their money is their prerogative. I personally find it cringe when I hear people buy 50+ crates, excited about items that have zero value outside of this game, but it's their choice.

The growing issue is that CS became so profitable for ZOS that they've cut corners in other aspects of the game. Last 3 expansions were lackluster as a whole; story-wise and in terms of features. Improvements in PVP are slow as molasses/non-existent (why on earth did it take near a decade to update your physical servers? Oh right because PVP doesn't generate profits). The nice rewards we used to get in PVE and story mode content like skins and personalities have dwindled to nothing, now all in the crown store for stupidly inflated gem/crown prices. People actually do those ancient dungeons/trials just for the cosmetic reward. We don't even have a larger gold purchase home in High Isle, unlocked by completing related quests. A perfect method to make the player engage with the content.

This trend means I hardly bother with recent content. Compare the potential rewards of (non trifecta) vet Asylum Sanctorium - titles, attractive skin and a shot at a rare polymorph, to Dreadsail Reef - titles and a pathetic face marking. They could have put that Reefdweller skin as a vet reward, but it's now relegated to crates, yet another thing I will ignore just like the last few crate seasons.

Northwold · June 2022

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MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

No-one is forcing you to buy Crown Crates. Also, requiring subscription as an alternative will immediately result in about a 50% loss of player base. This will effectively kill the game. Crown Crates accounts for most of the revenue and pays for the new content. The price we pay for DLC will go up dramatically if they remove crown crates and go to a subscription based requirement for playing. This will happen due to less net revenue coming in, loss of players due to forced subscription and no extra income from crown crates.

Do not be under the illusion that DLC will remain free if it reverted to a subscription only model because it won't, unless of course the price of subscription goes up to accommodate. This subscription only idea, will only increase the amount players are paying monthly while eliminating a lot of players from the game. The bespoke nature of choosing what content to buy and what not to buy is appealing for some players. Not every DLC is something that a player wants. Some players only pick the DLC's that have sets that they want or a storyline they are interested in. If a player does not want High Isle for example they should have the choice. The current nature of making subscription optional is better. Those that want everything can save money by subscribing, while those that only want specific content can also save money by not subscribing and simply getting what they want and ignoring the rest. It is a win win.

Crown Crates on the other hand are optional. purely optional. You lose nothing by not buying them outside of a few aesthetics. Now I do feel that it would be simply better to remove the chance aspect and simply have the stuff available to buy even if it means boosting the cost a bit for individual items. I don't like Crown Crates so please don't misunderstand that I am defending them, but they are optional as I have said. Besides this games Crown Crate system is nowhere near as pernicious and vindictive as it is in a game like COD for example. Activision are the absolute worst for this kind of thing. At least in ESO the pool of potential rewards is not obnoxiously big and it rotates. Also they have gems that mean you can save and eventually use them on something specific if you want. Not every game offers this option.

In summary, maybe they could be a bit cheaper and maybe they could only contain stuff that's new, so no consumables for example. Although, I am never disappointed with Lethal Poisons as they are a staple on one of my toons.

Crown Crates aren't ideal, but remember that other companies implement it far more greedily.

No one forces you to play roulette. That doesn't stop it being gambling and it is regulated as such.

Ilumia · June 2022

thorwyn wrote: »

Seems that for some people the answer to addiction is to just not get addicted in the first place.

No.
The answer to addiction is is: if you are suffering from an addiction, make sure you stay away from activities that are triggering it.

There are lots of addictions out there and every one of them responds to certain triggers. Apparently, some people in this community only seem to care about this one group of gambling addicts. Not a single word about the trigger potential of perma-drunk Sereyne or Skooma pipes or whatever. For some reason, there is no room under the wings of protection for alcoholics and drug addicts. I wonder why. Maybe the reasons behind the calls for a ban are not as philantrophic as they appear.

I am not going to argue with most of the substance in your post, but I will make it clear that I disagree strongly with your outlook on how people themselves are responsible for staying away from things that trigger their addiction, as that is just not always a valid solution. I think a game company also has a responsibility to not implement mechanisms that knowingly and on purpose enforce those addictions, and exploit them for profit.
And then I will just mention that I had a very dear friend who was a bit of a gaming addict, and had struggled heftily with gambling in other games before, and therefore had done exactly what you said by turning away from all of that (with proffesional help btw). He missed playing with his friends though, and loves the elder scrolls games, so decided to join eso right back when it launched, and there was no crown store or loot boxes. But as we know, this didn't last. And he wasted a lot of money on loot boxes, becuase he got severly depressed at a point, and getting nice stuff gave a short dopamine kick. He wasted so much money that he couldn't afford eso+, which was almost fine because he decided to stop playing as he explained with tears in his eyes - he just couldn't control the urge to buy crates to get that nice mount someone rode past on. But he liked playing, liked chatting with friends, and running content together, and he possibly also needed the escape of a very familiar gameworld to find comfort in.
He also couldn't afford to go to his psychologist anymore, which he sadly didn't tell his friends or parents. And he attempted suicide and almost succeded, and still can't walk properly because of it.
I am not jumping straight to the conclusion that the lootbox shop is solely responsible for this, depression is a nasty fight, with plenty of pitfalls, but I honestly think that it made it worse to feel so estranged and preyed upon in a game that felt like a second home - and I think so also because he told me how sad it made him to be forced to quit eso when he so needed that escape.

So in conclusion, he actually did try to stay away from the triggers as you ask, sadly they caught up, even though he had choosen eso in part because he didn't face those triggers here. And as much as I agree that people ultimately have responsibility for themselves, I still think we should care more for each other in many ways, and try to take responsibility for how things affect others as well, in this case what we can do is call out this practice as bad, and for instance trying to not let loot boxes be a thing, or even just make it a little less predatory.

I think there are a lot of "pull yourself together" or "it's your own problem" responses, and that is such a coldhearted view, as we all at points in our life, and in different areas, will struggle and therefore have less resistance to different things that tempt us to quick dopamine rushes. And even if that never happens to you, even if you're never less resistant at any point in your life, or you maybe don't notice where that happens, please understand that it is still valid that it happens to other people and it may not be their own fault at all.

etchedpixels · June 2022

thorwyn wrote: »

Seems that for some people the answer to addiction is to just not get addicted in the first place.

No.
The answer to addiction is is: if you are suffering from an addiction, make sure you stay away from activities that are triggering it.

If you can stay away from it you are not seriously addicted. Microsoft Zenimax also act in a way that subverts the protections that are in place in some countries.

For example in many EU and other countries an addict can (or in some cases a court can) have the bank mark their account so that they cannot spend money gambling. Zenimax (and some other bits of Microsoft do similar) subvert that protection because they go through a two stage process of buying crowns. The laws really ought to be changed so that anyone buying crown crates directly or indirectly cannot bypass those kind of checks. If crates could only be bought by card directly and the transaction was labelled as gambling then that protection would work, as would the usual under 18 gambling safeguards.

In the EU Belgium at least has banned ESO lootbox gambling, so it's happening but far too slowly.

Syldras · June 2022

etchedpixels wrote: »

thorwyn wrote: »

Seems that for some people the answer to addiction is to just not get addicted in the first place.

No.
The answer to addiction is is: if you are suffering from an addiction, make sure you stay away from activities that are triggering it.

If you can stay away from it you are not seriously addicted.

Not defending loot boxes, but just wondering: How do former alcoholics manage it? In many countries you can buy alcohol in every supermarket and buying groceries is something no one can avoid.

etchedpixels · June 2022

Syldras wrote: »

etchedpixels wrote: »

thorwyn wrote: »

Seems that for some people the answer to addiction is to just not get addicted in the first place.

No.
The answer to addiction is is: if you are suffering from an addiction, make sure you stay away from activities that are triggering it.

If you can stay away from it you are not seriously addicted.

Not defending loot boxes, but just wondering: How do former alcoholics manage it? In many countries you can buy alcohol in every supermarket and buying groceries is something no one can avoid.

I can only speak for the UK - the same scheme designed to stop gambling applies to alcohol purchases with cards but it's much less effective for the reasons you give. Hardcore addicts usually die of it despite the best efforts of others.

DagenHawk · June 2022

Back to this old chestnut again?

The United States isn't Belgium...hell in Belgium it's illegal to conduct a police raid at night...it's also legal for the Military to press Dogs into service.

This games business model will not change because it is successful...

Once again I am reminded of the dude that spent $2,500 dollars on a mobile game then gave a twenty minuet rant on how their cash shop was basically drugs in a vending machine...everyone laughed at him because his argument is idiotic and he has zero self control.

But...It's gambling!! Think Of the children!!

We all know that isn't the actual reason folks are complaining.

Syldras · June 2022

etchedpixels wrote: »

Syldras wrote: »

etchedpixels wrote: »

thorwyn wrote: »

Seems that for some people the answer to addiction is to just not get addicted in the first place.

No.
The answer to addiction is is: if you are suffering from an addiction, make sure you stay away from activities that are triggering it.

If you can stay away from it you are not seriously addicted.

Not defending loot boxes, but just wondering: How do former alcoholics manage it? In many countries you can buy alcohol in every supermarket and buying groceries is something no one can avoid.

I can only speak for the UK - the same scheme designed to stop gambling applies to alcohol purchases with cards but it's much less effective for the reasons you give. Hardcore addicts usually die of it despite the best efforts of others.

It's problematic for sure. And with physical goods I see a general conflict between the masses of people who have no addiction and who don't want to have huge efforts to buy something they want, and the people who are addicted and should at best not be confronted with their drug (whatever it is) at all. With digital goods such at loot boxes, maybe it would be possible to somehow optionally disable the function to buy them in game? Like, you send a message to ZOS and the loot box symbol completely vanishes from the menu? That would at least help the people who know that they have an addiction problem or who don't want to be tempted for any other reason.

barney2525 · June 2022

Malthorne wrote: »

Crown crates are 100% gambling. The sooner the US and EU implement loot box legislation to ban this predatory practice, the better.

No.

Its simply timing. Accumulating gems takes time.

Something you want costs 400 gems. You accumulate gems through various methods- buying crates, watching Twitch.

At some point you will have enough gems to buy what you want - unless you are lucky and it pops sooner for you, from a crate.

And since 100% of crates are Cosmetic - there is literally Nothing a player Needs from any crate in order to improve the character's competitiveness in the game. Crates are : " I Want " ... Not : " I NEED " .

Drammanoth · June 2022

Syldras wrote: »

It's problematic for sure. And with physical goods I see a general conflict between the masses of people who have no addiction and who don't want to have huge efforts to buy something they want, and the people who are addicted and should at best not be confronted with their drug (whatever it is) at all. With digital goods such at loot boxes, maybe it would be possible to somehow optionally disable the function to buy them in game? Like, you send a message to ZOS and the loot box symbol completely vanishes from the menu? That would at least help the people who know that they have an addiction problem or who don't want to be tempted for any other reason.

It would require one to have much self-awareness as well as strong will to restor to such a solution.

But by all means, it would be quite wise on the part of the player, and kind on the part of ZOS

spartaxoxo · June 2022

barney2525 wrote: »

Crates are : " I Want " ... Not : " I NEED " .

Last I checked, Slot Machines are an "I want" too. Doesn't stop them from being gambling. Why do people keep using definitions for gambling that exclude things like poker, casinos, roulette, etc. to justify why crates aren't gambling? Like nobody's holding a gun to my head when I go hit the slots either. But I still show ID.

CaptainVenom · June 2022

How is a lootbox full of COSMETICS an issue? It's because you want them bad but need to keep purchasing them and trying your luck?

Need to remember that eye candy items change nothing on your gameplay.

Frikgrim · June 2022

I believe the heart of this matter has nothing to do with loot crates. I believe there is far less concern about "gambling" and "addiction" than is being fronted here.

This is a "Me, My, and I" problem dressed up in "this is troublesome for the community" clothes.

Are loot crates a problem? Only for those who cannot control themselves. Is that a problem for the community? No. Last I checked we each control our own wallets and actions.

Loot crates are no more gambling than going to Walmart and purchasing blind box toys. So, let's ride with that logic for a moment.

If I go to Walmart and purchase $1,000 of blind box figure toys that I can't really afford to spend, but I absolutely must have a specific figure from that collection because MY enjoyment hinges on it, do I get to blame Walmart if I don't get that figure?

No, I don't. Because Walmart didn't make me purchase them. MY wants made me purchase it. Walmart just provided it.

This whole topic has nothing to do with "loot crates being a problem."

barney2525 · June 2022

spartaxoxo wrote: »

barney2525 wrote: »

Crates are : " I Want " ... Not : " I NEED " .

Last I checked, Slot Machines are an "I want" too. Doesn't stop them from being gambling. Why do people keep using definitions for gambling that exclude things like poker, casinos, roulette, etc. to justify why crates aren't gambling? Like nobody's holding a gun to my head when I go hit the slots either. But I still show ID.

Slot machines do not guarantee that eventually you will have enough winnings to buy the item you want.

Gems guarantee you will eventually have enough gems to buy the item you want.

DagenHawk · June 2022

Frikgrim wrote: »

This is a "Me, My, and I" problem dressed up in "this is troublesome for the community" clothes.

"

True...

All you have to do is listen to Zone chat for ten minuets in Daggerfall (especially after new crates are introduced) to confirm that.

Frikgrim · June 2022

spartaxoxo wrote: »

barney2525 wrote: »

Crates are : " I Want " ... Not : " I NEED " .

Last I checked, Slot Machines are an "I want" too. Doesn't stop them from being gambling. Why do people keep using definitions for gambling that exclude things like poker, casinos, roulette, etc. to justify why crates aren't gambling? Like nobody's holding a gun to my head when I go hit the slots either. But I still show ID.

Maybe people aren't using things like poker, casinos, roulette, etc. to to justify why crates aren't gambling is because it's an apples to onions comparison.

When you go to a casino to play slots, roulette, poker, etc., you are spending cash with the hopes that you'll win cash. That is true gambling. You may well walk away with NOTHING, NOTHING AT ALL and have lost all your cash, or you may walk away having won the jackpot of jackpots and never work another day in your life again.

With loot crates, you are buying items with a chance that some of those items may be more appealing to you. You win items every time. In fact, you win a set number of items every time. You may not win the ones you want, but you win items every single time. If they are not what you want, you can exchange them for gems. You never walk away a loser.

Know what you DO NOT win from loot crates? Cash.

You're not investing cash with a chance to win cash. You are purchasing items, with a chance that some of them may be more appealing to you than others.

That is not gambling. That is, at best, a money sink. And it's one that you're free to engage in, or not engage in.

Drammanoth · June 2022

barney2525 wrote: »

Slot machines do not guarantee that eventually you will have enough winnings to buy the item you want.

Gems guarantee you will eventually have enough gems to buy the item you want.

But before you collect enough Crown Gems, you'll be tempted / need to buy many Crates.

From Oroborus' Crates you have... 4-8 Gems, and the frequency with which Drops are enabled differ. Crown crates? Depends. But people usually aim at Radian Apex mounts, which cost circa 2,5k Gems.

One is better off piously doing the Endeavours.

Deter1UK · June 2022

DagenHawk wrote: »

Back to this old chestnut again?

The United States isn't Belgium...

The point of that remark being....?

You understand of course that this English speaking forum is international, yes? As is the Game. And that Zenimax has to opperate within the laws of each country.

And thus a chap from Belgium has as much right to comment in how the game operates locally to him as someone from the USA does?

Malthorne · June 2022

barney2525 wrote: »

Malthorne wrote: »

Crown crates are 100% gambling. The sooner the US and EU implement loot box legislation to ban this predatory practice, the better.

No.

Its simply timing. Accumulating gems takes time.

Something you want costs 400 gems. You accumulate gems through various methods- buying crates, watching Twitch.

At some point you will have enough gems to buy what you want - unless you are lucky and it pops sooner for you, from a crate.

And since 100% of crates are Cosmetic - there is literally Nothing a player Needs from any crate in order to improve the character's competitiveness in the game. Crates are : " I Want " ... Not : " I NEED " .

How much money do you have to spend to get the 400 or more gems you need? You say it takes time, however… Time is limited as well so you are pressured to spend more money at a faster rate to ensure you get the item(s) before the crate season is over.

Nothing you say changes the fact that it is a manipulative business model. It would be much more consumer friendly for players to be able to straight up buy the cosmetics they want versus the monetary hoops they currently have to jump through.

DagenHawk · June 2022

Deter1UK wrote: »

DagenHawk wrote: »

Back to this old chestnut again?

The United States isn't Belgium...

The point of that remark being....?

You understand of course that this English speaking forum is international, yes? As is the Game. And that Zenimax has to operate within the laws of each country.

And thus a chap from Belgium has as much right to comment in how the game operates locally to him as someone from the USA does?

Obviously you don't comprehend that I was speaking of the differences between the United States and Belgium...I never said this wasn't a international forum, nor did I say that someone from Belgium didn't have any rights to speak about how the game effects him or her locally.

The point simply was that the laws and culture (I know since I lived there a couple years) in the United Sates are different than those in Belgium.

Malthorne wrote: »

Nothing you say changes the fact that it is a manipulative business model. It would be much more consumer friendly for players to be able to straight up buy the cosmetics they want versus the monetary hoops they currently have to jump through.

It can reasonably be argued that any capitalistic transaction is manipulative...also I will promise you that the minuet Zenimax puts up all the items for sale another group of people will find something else that is wrong with that system and we will be right back discussing that ....in short nothing would ever be good enough...unless everything was free, and I'm sure a few would find something wrong with that.

acw37162 · June 2022

kargen27 wrote: »

Crown crates are not gambling. You purchase a crown crate knowing it will give you a minimum number of items. You always get at least that minimum number. Crown crates are no more gambling than trading cards that come with a stick of gum are gambling.
That said I would prefer they got rid of the crown crates and maybe even the crown store altogether and went back to a required subscription to play.

Crown crates are the very definition of gambling and Zenimax and ZoS are well aware.

There is a reason they changed/added a system to allow you earn the rewards through gameplay.

And, it is not because they were feeling altruistic.

People buy the crates for specific items and each roll is a dopamine hit just like gambling, they hide real money cost as best they can so your not looking at real money (just like Vegas), and if you needed any other hint the *** cat tells you it gambling while your opening crates.

And not only is it gambling it is designed to be purposefully exploitative.

merpins · June 2022

kargen27 wrote: »

Crown crates are not gambling. You purchase a crown crate knowing it will give you a minimum number of items. You always get at least that minimum number. Crown crates are no more gambling than trading cards that come with a stick of gum are gambling.
That said I would prefer they got rid of the crown crates and maybe even the crown store altogether and went back to a required subscription to play.

Psychologically speaking, Crown Crates use the same practices and design choices as slot machines as casinos. It preys on you in a very similar way, and therefore is gambling and can stimulate a gambling addiction.

_Zathras_ · June 2022

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

Crown crates are not gambling. You purchase a crown crate knowing it will give you a minimum number of items. You always get at least that minimum number. Crown crates are no more gambling than trading cards that come with a stick of gum are gambling.
That said I would prefer they got rid of the crown crates and maybe even the crown store altogether and went back to a required subscription to play.

Psychologically speaking, Crown Crates use the same practices and design choices as slot machines as casinos. It preys on you in a very similar way, and therefore is gambling and can stimulate a gambling addiction.

Very much so. It is intentional design, and predatory. It is literally the most effective "hook" for your brain to cause repetitive behavior.

..and every company that sells loot boxes knows this, especially ESO as they have made it so integral to their income strategy. They hire people to monetize the game. AND, they are making it worse by obfuscating your chances, plus the money you shell out for the chance to get any item, by increasing the tiers of currency needed.

So, first it was just Crowns, with some gold purchase options. Then the gold was removed, and it all became Crown only. Gems started to be introduced, but sparingly. Then they replaced items that could be bought with Crowns, with Gem-only purchase.

As the new currencies roll out, the prices to buy the items increase. Because a Gem only comes from breaking something down, and the amounts you get from one crate are completely random. Rng within rng, within rng.

The design is insidious, and very much intentional.

Scaletho · June 2022

kargen27 wrote: »

Crown crates are not gambling. You purchase a crown crate knowing it will give you a minimum number of items. You always get at least that minimum number. Crown crates are no more gambling than trading cards that come with a stick of gum are gambling.
That said I would prefer they got rid of the crown crates and maybe even the crown store altogether and went back to a required subscription to play.

Following your reasoning, Poker is not gambling because even the mildly skilled players knows that they start the game already losing, so it's their decision to risk.

Crown crates pander to the naivety of many players -- many of them underage -- who truly believe they will get that amazing and juicy new mount, or polymorph, or any new stuff simply buying 4 or just one crate.

The new Seals of Endeavor system is extremely unfair and unbalanced. You need to spent several months to get tens of thousands (!!!!!) seals in order to get something, most of time that stuff you want so many was already removed for crown store months before you be able to get enough seals to buy it. And ZOS don't allow us to buy many crown store itens with seals of endeavors.

ESO is, in fact, a huge whale bait. Many MMO games are. But it is a shame to realize how insanely greedy those gaming companies are, simply because there is almost none legislation to curb their exploitation mechanisms.

Crown Crates ARE gambling, and the sad part is: that system is a FRINGE gambling one. They can keep the "Las Vegas" bait running and still trusting that even some players will defend the system, mostly because it is so shady to properly say, "yes, for sure it is a gambling".

The Crates should be banned for good. But I'm sure ZOS will find another way to induce players to spend thousands of dollars for... literally virtual nothing.

jaws343 · June 2022

Scaletho wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

Crown crates are not gambling. You purchase a crown crate knowing it will give you a minimum number of items. You always get at least that minimum number. Crown crates are no more gambling than trading cards that come with a stick of gum are gambling.
That said I would prefer they got rid of the crown crates and maybe even the crown store altogether and went back to a required subscription to play.

Following your reasoning, Poker is not gambling because even the mildly skilled players knows that they start the game already losing, so it's their decision to risk.

Crown crates pander to the naivety of many players -- many of them underage -- who truly believe they will get that amazing and juicy new mount, or polymorph, or any new stuff simply buying 4 or just one crate.

The new Seals of Endeavor system is extremely unfair and unbalanced. You need to spent several months to get tens of thousands (!!!!!) seals in order to get something, most of time that stuff you want so many was already removed for crown store months before you be able to get enough seals to buy it. And ZOS don't allow us to buy many crown store itens with seals of endeavors.

ESO is, in fact, a huge whale bait. Many MMO games are. But it is a shame to realize how insanely greedy those gaming companies are, simply because there is almost none legislation to curb their exploitation mechanisms.

Crown Crates ARE gambling, and the sad part is: that system is a FRINGE gambling one. They can keep the "Las Vegas" bait running and still trusting that even some players will defend the system, mostly because it is so shady to properly say, "yes, for sure it is a gambling".

The Crates should be banned for good. But I'm sure ZOS will find another way to induce players to spend thousands of dollars for... literally virtual nothing.

The difference with Poker is that you can lose in Poker.

If, say, you go in with 20$ in Poker, you can walk out with 0$ or you can walk out with 100$. Depends on how things go.

If you buy a crate, you are guaranteed to get 4 items. Those 4 items represent the cost of the crate. When you buy the crate, you are buying those 4 base items. With a chance at a better item, or even a 5th item. But, at the end of the day, unlike Poker, your purchase comes with a guaranteed item. You may not like the item, you may not find it valuable, but the fact is it has a value assigned to it, the value of 1 crate cost. Unlike Poker, you don't start at 20$ and go to zero, you start at 20$ and get 20$ worth of base crate items, at a minimum.

Heartrage · June 2022

Lootcrates in eso are there solely to make us spend more than we would normally. It gates the rewards we really want behind a randomized loot system that gives garbage about 6 out of 7 boxes and that can’t be easily bypassed.

Moreover, the more lootcrates you buy, the lower the value you get. When you get doubles, you actually get less gem from the double than you would need to buy the double you got. This means that you have to loot the same legendary reward multiple time to afford to buy the one you really want or get lucky and get it.

I could get behind lootcrates if they were about giving random loot that you might like or not for cheaper that their cost in the store (because it might not be what you want). However this ain’t it.

We should be able to buy what we want directly with crowns, lootcrates should only be an bargain bin option for when you don’t care about buying a specific thing and only want to buy something for cheap. We shouldn’t have double or they should give an equal amount of gem to be able to afford an item of the same value.

Frikgrim · June 2022

Here's something I'd almost guarantee.

If ZOS were to remove the loot boxes, but left the path to get those items to be endeavors, we'd soon learn that loot crates were never the problem, but rather it's endeavors.

Then, if ZOS put a hefty price tag on the items, instead of using the endeavors, we'd learn from the same people that it wasn't really loot crates or endeavors that are the problem. It's, instead, having to pay the hefty price for what they want. . .

The line will always be shifted by those complaining, until they get what they want straight up handed to them for no effort and with no cost. And until that happens, every system ZOS will put those items behind will be "nefarious, evil, illegal, exploitive," or whatever language they can muster up to make their banner of "Me, Myself, and I" appear like it's a chivalrous banner to "protect the community."