Why Loot Boxes ARE an issue

Tandor · June 2022

I have no interest in crown crates, but I have no problem with them either.

biovitalb16_ESO · June 2022

My only problem with crates is...

Everything cool looking in the game = In crates
Achievement rewards = Total garbage.

freespirit · June 2022

Look I agree that crates are not necessarily a good thing. That they may cause some people debt problems is probably also true.

I stated in your other thread that was closed that I never have and never will buy them!!

Do they have stuff in them that I really want?? YES they do, I am massively into housing and they often have what I consider to be very beautiful furnishings in them!! This is why I am never going to buy an apex mount with seals, I buy a couple of those furnishings instead and accept that is all that I can currently have.

I think your use of the word "coerced" or "coercion" however is incorrect.......

"persuade (an unwilling person) to do something by using force or threats:"

You may want to re-think that as nobody is forcing you to do anything! I deal with my disappointment about missing out on cool stuff by trying to ignore the crates completely and once in a while when I have gathered a few seals, I browse through the items available for seals.

Edit:- co·erce. 1. To pressure, intimidate, or force (someone) into doing something. 2. To bring about or gain by pressure, threat or force.

I suppose you could at a pinch say Pacrooti is pressuring you but that is still a stretch!!

Lostar · June 2022

freespirit wrote: »

Look I agree that crates are not necessarily a good thing. That they may cause some people debt problems is probably also true.

I stated in your other thread that was closed that I never have and never will buy them!!

Do they have stuff in them that I really want?? YES they do, I am massively into housing and they often have what I consider to be very beautiful furnishings in them!! This is why I am never going to buy an apex mount with seals, I buy a couple of those furnishings instead and accept that is all that I can currently have.

I think your use of the word "coerced" or "coercion" however is incorrect.......

"persuade (an unwilling person) to do something by using force or threats:"

You may want to re-think that as nobody is forcing you to do anything! I deal with my disappointment about missing out on cool stuff by trying to ignore the crates completely and once in a while when I have gathered a few seals, I browse through the items available for seals.

Yeah..

I just got tired of saying manipulation all the time… Really it is manipulation. That’s not sugarcoating it and that’s not going too far. It is the exact thing that happens whenever Pacrooti urges you to buy more crates and tells you about how wonderful they are and how wonderful you are and buying them and how lucky you are and how all of his luck is being rubbed off on you and how he admires your persistence. This does not affect everyone. The system isn’t built to affect everyone but if it could I’m sure they would enable the “affect everyone mechanic”. The system is built from the ground up to manipulate a certain group of people and it does so knowingly and willfully and even pridefully.

And I want no part of it. I don’t want to be in the proximity of it. I don’t like that my beloved IP has been tainted by it. No this is not the same as the horse armor’s of oblivion. That was never gambling. I was even OK with it. I found the horse armor to be garrish kind of ugly and I had no interest in them and it was a single player game so who cared. It was not gambling. This is to a previous poster not you by the way. They referred to the horse armor as though that was comparable to the gambling of loot boxes.

If I do not have the seals to buy some thing that I really want then I have to constantly make the consideration of whether or not to gamble in order to acquire it. This all while sitting in the comforts of my own computer room.

Jaimeh · June 2022

Tenthirty2 wrote: »

You could say that threads like this create awareness, throwing back the covers of an unethical business practice, etc.
They don't really.
Those that are going to spend money on crowns for crates are going to do it, topics like in this thread won't change that.
So what is the purpose here?

Indifference to the shady practices of the status quo is what allows for things to get worse. There should be pressure on ZOS to do better, if we let them, there will be nothing on the store for direct purchase anymore. And yes, they are all collectibles but this is an RPGMMO, people like to get nice things for their characters, and asking for more of them to be put as in-game rewards or as direct sales in the store is very much worthwhile.

theendoftheriver · June 2022

Lostar wrote: »

The same people who probably look at their local fast-food joint and go "well it's a gamble whether I get fresh or cold fries" are the same who find it so difficult to call loot crates gambling.

Dude that's a bet I used to make with my wife in every drive thru. We changed the practice to now when we order our fries, we check them before moving away and ask for hot fries. It totally is a gamble and the only reason to line up in a drive thru - if they going through fries, better chances of them being hot.

On topic though. Loot boxes are predatory practice. I get all the free ones I can but I won't pay for any. I sub and occasionally purchase crowns, because I'm getting lots of entertainment from the game. I don't think there's much reason to defend loot box practices, but we do have to keep the internet and electric feeding the megaservers.

spartaxoxo · June 2022

They could replace loot boxes with battle passes, imo. I like crown crates. But, I also like to game sometimes. I don't it is necessary to have loot boxes though and I won't cry if battlepasses and the like end up replacing them. They are clearly addictive. I find it less compelling in M rated games than ones rated T or E though.

Lostar · June 2022

spartaxoxo wrote: »

They could replace loot boxes with battle passes, imo.

I enjoyed battle passes in games like to sea of thieves where You can earn some rewards for free but then you can also pay the $9USD to get the battle pass exclusive awards.

However, In this game we already have ESO+ So perhaps they could incentivize more people to try out ESO+ With the removal of loot crates… Gamble boxes… And tying in daily endeavors/daily login awards in some intuitive way into a battle pass that the ESO+ model gets some things exclusive to them while still allowing the free players (does anyone else remember the term fr00bs? fr00bie?) to obtain some things from the battle pass perhaps with the option to using crowns to buy the ESO+ exclusive rewards as you reach that tier in a battle pass season if you are not an ESO+ subscriber. This would curb gambling; punish no one, entice people into the ESO+ model (which I personally find worth it), and allow us to work towards rewards that we want within the season. Good idea. Thank you.

Elsonso · June 2022

Hvíthákarl wrote: »

I beg everyone performing mental gymnastics trying to defend Crown Crates, to realise there are scientific papers written on this very issue that you can read online. Taking what evidence clears up, the only logical conclusion is that there's no ethical way to have lootboxes in a video game and they should all be banned. And there's the fact that they are specifically targeted towards the neurodivergent and those with gambling issues, which is absolutely despicable and can't be defended. Please do your research before posting the weirdest, uninformed takes on the Internet about something that's an extremely serious topic.

Arrodisia wrote: »

Why should all responsible adults who like their items delivered as surprises lose this feature because a small few can't control their gambling habit

Empathy. Ethics. Basic morals. Stop having their head shoved so deeply inside certain place... You name it, there's why, pick one. For those whose answer is none: Do better and work on yourself.

I am very much against Crown Crates and would like them removed from the game, but not because they are "addictive" or "predatory" but because I feel they not a healthy influence for role playing game developers. It encourages an easy source of money that is not directly associated with making the game a better game. My firm belief is that this results in development to enhance the loot boxes, rather than development to enhance the game, even if this is not a deliberate decision.

That out of the way, @Arrodisia is correct. It is the responsibility of the addict, not society, not legislators, and not studios.

If I have had one thing drilled into me about addiction, it is that addicts must step up and control their addiction. No one is going to do it for them in a manner that allows the addict to live their own life. They have to understand what triggers their addiction, and keep away from it. They must be able to recognize new triggers, and have people around them who will notice a problem and help them stop. No legislation can fix this.

To that end, my belief is that people who are addicted to the feeling they have when they open loot boxes and can control themselves are the individuals who are not a problem. It is easy to play this game without thinking about Crown Crates, and for that reason, someone who is aware they have a problem can avoid them, even though they might be tempted on a daily basis. This is their control, and this control has to extend well beyond the bounds of ESO, to everything that could possibly be a trigger.

The problem with gambling addiction and Crown Crates is that ZOS has no measures in place, that I am aware of, to detect people who are addicted and need help with their addiction. At minimum, these people need to be stopped in ESO. Bigger picture, they need to find someone who can help them, but the problem with online games is that players can be anywhere in the world and have access to wildly different resources for help. Game studios should be able to detect behaviors that are associated with gambling addiction and at least limit access to the loot boxes.

The challenge presented is to find a way to help the few who cannot control their gambling addiction find the help they need to be able to control it. This is the real benefit, and not something that removal of loot boxes to remove the temptation can accomplish. To that end, country-specific "gambling hotline" phone numbers should be present on the screen any time a Crown Crate panel is open. I consider this rather lame in the larger scheme of things, but if it helps people, it is worth it. My guess is that voluntarily doing that would be admitting that loot boxes are gambling and open all sorts of legal issues. Legislation is required.

The next part is why not make ESO a "safe space" for gambling addicts by removing loot boxes. ZOS could phase out Crown Crates. I can get behind that. Say NO to Crown Crates. We need to face a reality, though. Crown Crates are not the only potential trigger for addicts that can be found in ESO. There are a number of different mechanisms in the game that can be just as addicting as Crown Crates, just less of a drain on the wallet.

We play this game, and other games, because of the way it makes us feel when we are doing it. That is what makes games enjoyable, and some of those things are tied to psychological manipulation. Most of us will not be addicted to these things, and can walk away from them even if captured by those manipulations. Not everyone, though. These same things can easily be addictive to some people, and those psychological manipulations that keep us interested might be enough to fuel an addiction that could end up being harmful to the player. Video game addiction was a thing long before loot boxes.

tohopka_eso · June 2022

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

Lostar wrote: »

There was such a time where gaming was a bastion from the worst of it; that the manipulation began and ended from the sales counter after the transaction. Fewer and fewer games are that bastion away from these predatory agendas because indeed,

Every once in a while, I like to think back to the arcades of the 80's. And I see many parallels to modern mobile & f2p gaming.

Had to exchange your cash for can't-use-it-anywhere-else "tokens". And if you spent more at the change machine, you'd get a bonus! ($20 = 80+10 tokens!)

Games designed to kill you within ~5-10m... but you can keep shoving in quarters to get a continue! The original p2w!

edit: oooh, and leaderboards! Gotta get a high score, so you can put your initials up on that high score list!

Games exploiting PvP to get people to pay more (that Street Fighter or Mortal Kombat machine, with two people fighting a single match, at which point someone's lost and a new token has to be inserted. But hey, there's a crowd around the machine, getting hyped watching the pvp, and lining up their tokens on the machine to challenge the winner. The tokens/hour rate on those things must have been amazing...)

And, of course, these arcades (especially at boardwalks or in amusement parks) went along with the carnival games - like Skee Ball. Keep playing to save up more and more tickets... so you can pay 4000 tickets at the prize counter for some lousy stuffed animal. Or go play the serious (and seriously rigged) carnival games, like hoop toss or throwing the baseball at the (weighted) milk bottles.

Ooh, and crane games! Keep shoving in money, you'll get that stuffed animal for your girlfriend any time now. Any time.

Yeah, this modern greed is nothing like the good old days.

i remember those days also, but I want to add to this.

If loot crates is per se gambling <which i use the word loosely> who plays Magic or in that matter any of the card games. Who buys blind boxes of Dungeon and dragons or Pathfinder figures.

how many times have you opened a box of cards hoping to get that one or three to build your deck, complete a collection, do trade ins??

I'm guilty of this as probably some of you are as well. I'm a collector and i know my chances of getting what I'm paying for. If i dont get that item in the loot crate I can just exchange for the loot currency of items it will let me sell and if i get enough or more I can purchase it.

I just think this whole thing is truly being blown out of proportion, as someone else said, if you dont like it dont buy it.

Lostar · June 2022

It is perfectly portioned to the effect it has; there is nothing sensational in pointing out that if I want something out of a loot box and I do not have the seals to buy it (which is a gamble as well - if I spend these seals then there is a chance I will not have enough when that next loot crate is revealed and it has the cosmetic I have been wanting) then I must consider, inside my home, if I am going to take part in gambling or not. Gems have been devalued significantly by ZoS since the implementation of endeavors as well.

Card games; you receive a physical good which you can retain ownership of or trade or sell and they are cheaper then the ephemeral digital goods that are overpriced inside their gambling boxes that you can never claim actual ownership of or trade to other players or sell.

Tenthirty2 · June 2022

Jaimeh wrote: »

Tenthirty2 wrote: »

You could say that threads like this create awareness, throwing back the covers of an unethical business practice, etc.
They don't really.
Those that are going to spend money on crowns for crates are going to do it, topics like in this thread won't change that.
So what is the purpose here?

Indifference to the shady practices of the status quo is what allows for things to get worse. There should be pressure on ZOS to do better, if we let them, there will be nothing on the store for direct purchase anymore. And yes, they are all collectibles but this is an RPGMMO, people like to get nice things for their characters, and asking for more of them to be put as in-game rewards or as direct sales in the store is very much worthwhile.

I don't disagree, it would be a good move for ZoS to include many of the nicer crate items in-game and earn-able.
And I suspect they could still benefit with gains from perhaps more players and subscribers who would then have more reasons to play thru the content.

I'm not indifferent to shady practices, but I am also very much a pick-and-plan-your-battles person.
So much of the thread seems to have devolved into a "gambling or not?" debate and it's misdirected energy.
It won't change their mindset, they make too much money on crowns and crates, it will unfortunately get locked I imagine as what often seems to happen with threads that attempt to buck the system.

If the goal is to change how ZoS makes cosmetics and rewards available then there are likely better ways to make it known is more my point. Other ways to present options for change.

Lostar · June 2022

Tenthirty2 wrote: »

Jaimeh wrote: »

Tenthirty2 wrote: »

You could say that threads like this create awareness, throwing back the covers of an unethical business practice, etc.
They don't really.
Those that are going to spend money on crowns for crates are going to do it, topics like in this thread won't change that.
So what is the purpose here?

Indifference to the shady practices of the status quo is what allows for things to get worse. There should be pressure on ZOS to do better, if we let them, there will be nothing on the store for direct purchase anymore. And yes, they are all collectibles but this is an RPGMMO, people like to get nice things for their characters, and asking for more of them to be put as in-game rewards or as direct sales in the store is very much worthwhile.

I don't disagree, it would be a good move for ZoS to include many of the nicer crate items in-game and earn-able.
And I suspect they could still benefit with gains from perhaps more players and subscribers who would then have more reasons to play thru the content.

I'm not indifferent to shady practices, but I am also very much a pick-and-plan-your-battles person.
So much of the thread seems to have devolved into a "gambling or not?" debate and it's misdirected energy.
It won't change their mindset, they make too much money on crowns and crates, it will unfortunately get locked I imagine as what often seems to happen with threads that attempt to buck the system.

If the goal is to change how ZoS makes cosmetics and rewards available then there are likely better ways to make it known is more my point. Other ways to present options for change.

I write to my state legislators but if there are other measures you think those of us who remain concerned players should take, please share what ideas you may have!

I’m a ‘pick-my-battles-and-get-down-in-the-pit-and-mosh-it-out’ (the forums being the mosh-it in this metaphor) sort of person myself. I want to engage those who are directly involved with the game and the forums are a good place for that open discussion.

Amottica · June 2022

Lostar wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Lostar wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

I ceased reading half way through that paragraph and did not bother watching the video. The reason is OP is discussing P2W and crates have absolutely nothing to do with P2W as it does nothing to help someone win.

In other words, the title seems to have nothing to do with what the message in the thread is speaking to.

I am not a big consumer of cash shop items and I am here to play a game and enjoy the game itself. However, myself, like others, would rather be able to make a direct choice on buying something or not buying it vs a dice roll on what I will get.

However, there are enough people with presumably more cash to toss away that are willing to buy crates upon crates in the hopes of getting something they want, and that si what drives the crates. Threads that complain about crates will do nothing to cease their sales as the stream of money going into the bank account of Zenimax drowns all this out.

But they are not P2W by any stretch.

[snip]

[snip]

[snip]

No one is actually coerced into buying crown crates and I say that as someone who doesn’t like crown crates. I find it easy to pass on them as they offer nothing that’s really needed.

However, it doesn’t matter how many of us don’t like the crates as there are enough that do buy into them that threads like this have no impact on what Zenimax will do with the crates.

The hard fact is the revenue speaks much louder. The only way crates will change is either enough players stop buying them, which isn’t happening anytime soon, or they are regulated in enough nations to make a dent. That isn’t happening anytime soon for this type of crate.

[edited to remove quote]

ZOS_Icy · June 2022

Greetings,

We have recently removed some off topic posts in addition to some unnecessary back and forth from this thread. This is a reminder to keep the discussion civil and constructive. Please keep our Community Rules in mind moving forward.

Thank you for your understanding.

Lostar · June 2022

Amottica wrote: »

Lostar wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Lostar wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

I ceased reading half way through that paragraph and did not bother watching the video. The reason is OP is discussing P2W and crates have absolutely nothing to do with P2W as it does nothing to help someone win.

In other words, the title seems to have nothing to do with what the message in the thread is speaking to.

I am not a big consumer of cash shop items and I am here to play a game and enjoy the game itself. However, myself, like others, would rather be able to make a direct choice on buying something or not buying it vs a dice roll on what I will get.

However, there are enough people with presumably more cash to toss away that are willing to buy crates upon crates in the hopes of getting something they want, and that si what drives the crates. Threads that complain about crates will do nothing to cease their sales as the stream of money going into the bank account of Zenimax drowns all this out.

But they are not P2W by any stretch.

[snip]

[snip]

[snip]

No one is actually coerced into buying crown crates and I say that as someone who doesn’t like crown crates. I find it easy to pass on them as they offer nothing that’s really needed.

However, it doesn’t matter how many of us don’t like the crates as there are enough that do buy into them that threads like this have no impact on what Zenimax will do with the crates.

The hard fact is the revenue speaks much louder. The only way crates will change is either enough players stop buying them, which isn’t happening anytime soon, or they are regulated in enough nations to make a dent. That isn’t happening anytime soon for this type of crate.

[edited to remove quote]

Greed does speak louder within the corporate world. There’s no denying that. It’s why lobbying in congress has been so effective. It doesn’t make it right. It doesn’t mean we do not try to enact change no matter how frustrating it can get.

I had redressed my usage about coercion in a former post that you can find. Change can happen slowly, but it often starts with open discussion like these. The challenge is to not be dissuaded by the naysayers.

Drammanoth · June 2022

Guys, do check this article - I'm reposting it here

https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2022-06-01-18-countries-back-report-calling-for-loot-box-regulations

those who don't believe in 'gambling', you have the right to your creed. Others can see clearly.

Lostar · June 2022

I noticed my response post to Paralyse was removed as well as many others. None of them were impolite and they all have been following the rules. I’ll be back in a few days with a new discussion we can reopen here. In the meantime, to any of my fellow players who are interested in continuing this discussion that has been very civil can check out my link in my signature where you can find info to contact me through Discord. Thank you, everyone! Even those who vehemently disagreed about loot boxes being gambling. You were all still very polite and I appreciate that we required no moderation as we were moderating one another just fine.

I am aware of the community guidelines and how, for the first time in this thread, I have infracted upon them just as they are aware of how they really had no reason to step in as things have been civil. I am sure this was a part of their plan as there was no reason for the deletion of some of the posts and it was only to gain this reaction.

Take care my fellow gamers who love their games!

FangOfTheTwoMoons · June 2022

Since posts are being deleted I will give my last opinion on this. Making sure it is on topic and within the ToS:

Crown Crates are a business model used to profit as much as possible through taking advantage of people with metal illness. This is not a conspiracy, this is a fact backed by science. They are toxic for the community and are not necessary.

Pepegrillos · June 2022

ZOS_Icy wrote: »

Greetings,

We have recently removed some off topic posts in addition to some unnecessary back and forth from this thread. This is a reminder to keep the discussion civil and constructive. Please keep our Community Rules in mind moving forward.

Thank you for your understanding.

You left a post up that calls for addicts to control their addiction and deleted mine, which pointed out the absolute insanity of that statement.

I get the role of keeping things civil, but that's plainly absurd. There is nothing civil and constructive about telling people with a vulnerable biological/psychological basis to buckle up. Replace "addiction" with any other term that refers to a biological/psychological impediment and you will realize how big of a misstep that is.

chrisub17_ESO104 · June 2022

I agree gambling in games is bad. That crates don't rise to the legal definition is because games simply add layers of indirection to get around the legal definition. All the human psychology of it that games leverage to extract as much money as possible still exists.

Pay to win is literally about competitive play. Competitive play has specific rules and is not subjective by definition.

Cosmetics are obviously important to a whole lot of players, but the whole area is entirely subjective and heavily influenced by fads, trends, peer pressure, etc..

I'm someone who could care less about cosmetics I'm purely a competitive min/max player.

But if they can come for you they can come for me. And slowly they have. What's normal is being changed and not in a good way.

I think objectively more heavily monetizing cosmetics is the best choice. But not behind loot boxes. Nothing should ever be behind a loot box.

JanTanhide · June 2022

Can't gamble if you don't buy the Crown Crates. If you think it's gambling and don't want to gamble then don't buy them. No one is forcing anyone to buy Crown Crates. In all the years Crown Crates have been in this game I have purchased one Crown Crate.

I spend my monthly Crowns from the ESO Subscription on Music Boxes and other items that interest me and they are permanent in game.

I also think the game should be subscription only. It would weed out a lot of people that want everything for free.

Cendrillion21 · June 2022

I don't understand how loot crates are a predatory practice when you can choose to boycott them with no harm to your in-game performance. I realize that this is (apparently) an unpopular opinion but I enjoy getting crates when the new ones drop.

rootkitronin · June 2022

Seems that for some people the answer to addiction is to just not get addicted in the first place.

Absolutely brilliant.

spartaxoxo · June 2022

Cendrillion21 wrote: »

I don't understand how loot crates are a predatory practice when you can choose to boycott them with no harm to your in-game performance. I realize that this is (apparently) an unpopular opinion but I enjoy getting crates when the new ones drop.

Because a predatory business practice describes what the company does, and what psychological impulses they are playing on, to conduct business. No legal product is sold with a gun to your head, so that's not a legitimate distinction between predatory and non-predatory business practices.

BretonMage · June 2022

There seem to be people here saying, if you don't like the practice, don't buy them. For most of us, it's a valid comment. But there are many people, either because of youth, inexperience or a disorder, who do NOT have the requisite impulse control to regulate themselves. And this lack of impulse regulation is an actual disorder, not a result of poor choices or a lack of guidance. And companies are making money from this disorder. THAT is what makes it predatory.

Imagine a world where companies are given carte blanche to take advantage of people with disabilities. Maybe they start charging for the use of disability ramps or lifts, for example. Would we really like to live in that world?

Amottica · June 2022

Lostar wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Lostar wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Lostar wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

I ceased reading half way through that paragraph and did not bother watching the video. The reason is OP is discussing P2W and crates have absolutely nothing to do with P2W as it does nothing to help someone win.

In other words, the title seems to have nothing to do with what the message in the thread is speaking to.

I am not a big consumer of cash shop items and I am here to play a game and enjoy the game itself. However, myself, like others, would rather be able to make a direct choice on buying something or not buying it vs a dice roll on what I will get.

However, there are enough people with presumably more cash to toss away that are willing to buy crates upon crates in the hopes of getting something they want, and that si what drives the crates. Threads that complain about crates will do nothing to cease their sales as the stream of money going into the bank account of Zenimax drowns all this out.

But they are not P2W by any stretch.

[snip]

[snip]

[snip]

No one is actually coerced into buying crown crates and I say that as someone who doesn’t like crown crates. I find it easy to pass on them as they offer nothing that’s really needed.

However, it doesn’t matter how many of us don’t like the crates as there are enough that do buy into them that threads like this have no impact on what Zenimax will do with the crates.

The hard fact is the revenue speaks much louder. The only way crates will change is either enough players stop buying them, which isn’t happening anytime soon, or they are regulated in enough nations to make a dent. That isn’t happening anytime soon for this type of crate.

[edited to remove quote]

Greed does speak louder within the corporate world. There’s no denying that. It’s why lobbying in congress has been so effective. It doesn’t make it right. It doesn’t mean we do not try to enact change no matter how frustrating it can get.

I had redressed my usage about coercion in a former post that you can find. Change can happen slowly, but it often starts with open discussion like these. The challenge is to not be dissuaded by the naysayers.

We can call it greed if we want to. However, for everyone (or spouses) that works for a private company that is not legally designated a non-profit, it is the source of our paychecks and retirement funds that come from the said company.

That pretty much sums up most of us that have a job, retirement fund, or 401k that receives contributions from that for-profit company.

So yes, I agree. There is no denying that Zenimax, and by extension Microsoft, are for-profit companies and province goods and services for a fee. In reality that is all crown crates are, a service provider for a fee.

And again, as long as people are buying the crown crates like they have been or regulation forces Zenimax to change how crates work this thread will fall on deaf ears. We vote with our dollars (and crowns) and the overwhelming vote is for crown crates.

And again, I do not buy crates and pretty much avoid the cash shop so I am not the crown store cheerleader here. Just pointing out a glaring fact.

FlopsyPrince · June 2022

kargen27 wrote: »

Crown crates are not gambling. You purchase a crown crate knowing it will give you a minimum number of items. You always get at least that minimum number. Crown crates are no more gambling than trading cards that come with a stick of gum are gambling.
That said I would prefer they got rid of the crown crates and maybe even the crown store altogether and went back to a required subscription to play.

This is a common misconception. I seriously doubt anyone buys them for what they normally contain. They buy them for the "nicer" items (mounts for me almost exclusively).

Thus they are clearly gambling and I believe they are now banned in the EU if I follow things right (I may not of course).

spartaxoxo · June 2022

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

Crown crates are not gambling. You purchase a crown crate knowing it will give you a minimum number of items. You always get at least that minimum number. Crown crates are no more gambling than trading cards that come with a stick of gum are gambling.
That said I would prefer they got rid of the crown crates and maybe even the crown store altogether and went back to a required subscription to play.

This is a common misconception. I seriously doubt anyone buys them for what they normally contain. They buy them for the "nicer" items (mounts for me almost exclusively).

Thus they are clearly gambling and I believe they are now banned in the EU if I follow things right (I may not of course).

They are outright banned in Belgium and face new regulations in other countries, because they are obviously gambling. This is the reason that ZOS added seals, so that you weren't risking money for a chance at an item you had no other way to obtain from Zenimax. Several companies have self-corrected a lot of the most insidious parts of loot boxes to escape legislation, and some games are just ditching them in favor of stuff like battle passes, like Overwatch. Because needing to monetize =/= needing to use predatory monetization.

MindOfTheSwarm · June 2022

No-one is forcing you to buy Crown Crates. Also, requiring subscription as an alternative will immediately result in about a 50% loss of player base. This will effectively kill the game. Crown Crates accounts for most of the revenue and pays for the new content. The price we pay for DLC will go up dramatically if they remove crown crates and go to a subscription based requirement for playing. This will happen due to less net revenue coming in, loss of players due to forced subscription and no extra income from crown crates.

Do not be under the illusion that DLC will remain free if it reverted to a subscription only model because it won't, unless of course the price of subscription goes up to accommodate. This subscription only idea, will only increase the amount players are paying monthly while eliminating a lot of players from the game. The bespoke nature of choosing what content to buy and what not to buy is appealing for some players. Not every DLC is something that a player wants. Some players only pick the DLC's that have sets that they want or a storyline they are interested in. If a player does not want High Isle for example they should have the choice. The current nature of making subscription optional is better. Those that want everything can save money by subscribing, while those that only want specific content can also save money by not subscribing and simply getting what they want and ignoring the rest. It is a win win.

Crown Crates on the other hand are optional. purely optional. You lose nothing by not buying them outside of a few aesthetics. Now I do feel that it would be simply better to remove the chance aspect and simply have the stuff available to buy even if it means boosting the cost a bit for individual items. I don't like Crown Crates so please don't misunderstand that I am defending them, but they are optional as I have said. Besides this games Crown Crate system is nowhere near as pernicious and vindictive as it is in a game like COD for example. Activision are the absolute worst for this kind of thing. At least in ESO the pool of potential rewards is not obnoxiously big and it rotates. Also they have gems that mean you can save and eventually use them on something specific if you want. Not every game offers this option.

In summary, maybe they could be a bit cheaper and maybe they could only contain stuff that's new, so no consumables for example. Although, I am never disappointed with Lethal Poisons as they are a staple on one of my toons.

Crown Crates aren't ideal, but remember that other companies implement it far more greedily.