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ESO's Heavy Reliance on Repetitive Gameplay Loops Hides a Hollow Game
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Grizzbeorn✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Ragnarok0130 wrote: »OP what is your history or experience with MMOs, is this your first MMO because everything you object to is and has been standard MMO design for the past couple of decades.
Not just MMOs, but aRPGs, as well.0 -
_Zathras_✭✭✭✭✭
✭rootkitronin wrote: »
If the last few releases are anything to go by, I think ZOS wants to just maintain the status quo and will stick to their current formula - which seems to be producing more of the same while using the minimum amount of resources possible - it's cruise control.
This has been my feeling for quite some time. Farming the ESO community, and putting the money elsewhere..with minimal investment into ESO itself. Small, bare-bones, cookie-cutter experiences, with a prominent Cash Shop presence.
Unfortunately, the blandness is noticeable now. In this article, the discussion rolls on about any lack of excitement for this year's chapter, which seems to also echo the deadpan tone expressed in the chapter's reveal. I mean, if the dev's aren't excited by the content, why would the players be?
At the end of the day, there is nothing wrong with criticism. And, as a product and source of entertainment, invest if you feel you are getting your money's worth..or not. Choice is a wonderful thing.3 -
Celephantsylvius_Bornasfinmo✭✭✭✭✭
✭I've played ESO for years, but recently I've toned down my gameplay (break mode) and have stopped supporting financially.
We've already had subject posts discussing content rinse and repeat in the past, that it was a bit too evident and lack luster. These subjects date back 3 years and perhaps even a bit more.
For me, ESO needs a Gordon Ramsay to come in and audit the quality of content.
(No bash, just a long time player who agrees with the subject post)
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Jaimeh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I know what you mean OP because sometimes the game does feel like it's one big daily. Also, in each new zone we know to expect the same sort of dailies in every release: delve, WB, world event... In the past there weren't so many dailies, so it's not that the game has changed per se, it's that they are just that much more prominent nowadays due to sheer number, so it seems there's nothing else going on.1 -
Abelon✭✭✭✭✭rootkitronin wrote: »
If the last few releases are anything to go by, I think ZOS wants to just maintain the status quo and will stick to their current formula - which seems to be producing more of the same while using the minimum amount of resources possible - it's cruise control.
This has been my feeling for quite some time. Farming the ESO community, and putting the money elsewhere..with minimal investment into ESO itself. Small, bare-bones, cookie-cutter experiences, with a prominent Cash Shop presence.
Unfortunately, the blandness is noticeable now. In this article, the discussion rolls on about any lack of excitement for this year's chapter, which seems to also echo the deadpan tone expressed in the chapter's reveal. I mean, if the dev's aren't excited by the content, why would the players be?
Great article, I can only agree.
They started playing it safe. They know how the players tick, they know how to keep the money flowing and they probably don't see much reason to do more than required. Not bashing anyone, this is completely normal in most industries and gets more common the bigger a company is.
You can feel this in every aspect of the game. Brand new feature that is companions? Their use is limited, their customization limited, their personalities and appearances mostly bland... No new classes, no new skill lines, no new major features that are actually part of the game (Tales of Tribute feels like a completely separate thing and Legends already existed).
And despite some people asking for a break in content in order to fix and work on already existing things... That won't happen either, because that is also not safe.
We will see if the next chapter follows this pattern. If it will be just another story with a tiny something on top. Not that I dislike the new stories... But perhaps the price should be adjusted to reflect the amount of content.1 -
Mandragora✭✭✭✭I totally agree with OP - you opened my eyes about my own problem. Also confirmed what I was feeling - the lack of meaningful progression generally in MMOs is usually connected to very bad grind or boring complicated daily system. They even spoil festival with that. Man, I so hate dailies like endavours, because they are the most empty without any background or reason why to do it - it really does feel like a mobile game.
For me roleplaying dailies would be "for the fun of it", but they will never add it, in any MMO.PAWS (Positively Against Wrip-off Stuff) - Say No to Crown Crates!1 -
SeaGtGruff✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I love the fact that ESO has so many daily repeatable quests, because it means there's always something to do-- yes, even if it's something I've done a thousand times before. There are so many dailies that you can't do them all, due to the limit on how many you can do each day-- 50, I think it is-- so that means you must choose which ones you want to do and which ones you want to skip, assuming you actually have the time and inclination to do 50 on any given day.
Speaking for myself, I normally do only a few daily quests, and I don't grind them day after day; I don't ask other players to share their quests with me so I can do all of them each day for the rewards. Often I'll run to assist someone who asks for help in zone chat, but I do it for pleasure, not for the share.
My choice of dailies has changed over the years, which helps keep it fresh for me. I used to accept the delve dailies and avoid the world boss dailies, because I wasn't able to solo the world bosses. But now that I can solo many of the world bosses, I like to accept the world boss dailies and am more inclined to skip the delve dailies.
As for doing the content for fun instead of for the daily rewards, I like to run around a zone soloing all of the world bosses even if I don't have daily quests for them.I've fought mudcrabs more fearsome than me!0 -
AzuraFan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭The only dailies I do are the crafting writs. I do other dailies until I hit the achievement (if there's a 30/30 one) and that's all. I'm still working on Jar-Lee's insane 150 one, but I only do one of his quests when I feel like it.1 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Even if a world boss was hard, there's no reason to keep killing it once you beat outside of rewards. The daily quest gives you those rewards. PvP is getting a server re-architecture because there's performance issues that need to be resolved before they can add more content. It's a massive undertaking that shows a lot of commitment to PVP, but it will take quite some time before new content can be added. I'm not going to address overland difficulty as that is a topic I have already addressed ad nausem in the sticky thread for it.
This isn't a single player game, loot farming is part of what makes MMOs an MMO. You're better off with a single player game if you think that grinding shouldn't be a common quest type. The system isn't flawed just because it's not to your tastes. Part of the appeal of MMOs is grinding out content, which means repetition. And that also means that you won't get the rewards you'd like right away. It's not like many single player games where you defeat the boss, you get the thing, and move-on to the next stage. ESO could probably be less stingy with it's drop rates, some of the items have truly ridiculous ones. But, the delivery method itself of encouraging dailies and grinding itself is sound.Edited by spartaxoxo on June 20, 2022 5:43PM0 -
Stamicka✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Welcome to every MMO ever....
I disagree. Sure, on a basic level every MMO has repetitive tasks and some sort of daily system. That’s not the problem in question. The main thing in question here is the motivation to carry out those tasks. I personally think that there is no reason to do anything in ESO because of the lack of progression, rewards, and fun. There needs to be motivation to do content without having to rely on daily quests for the motivation. The existence of daily quest systems are totally fine, but in ESO's case, without them, I wouldn't feel compelled to do anything at all. ZOS seems to cover up the lack of real incentive by using the daily quests system. I enjoyed exploring new zones and delves back in 2015. I think that feeling is mostly gone for many people.
Edited by Stamicka on June 20, 2022 9:08PMPC NA and Xbox NA4 -
Drammanoth✭✭✭✭✭
Correct, you think this way. And yet, as you can see, despite us complaining about ESO's this and that, we do find a plethora of reasons to play.
Hopefully you're not one of the 'diers' (you know, 'ESO is dying'). It is not.
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NettleCarrier✭✭✭✭✭I just stopped doing dailies altogether and feel I'm happier this way. Income in this game is easy enough if you have patience, just buy event stuff and sell it months later, rise/repeat. I definitely desire something *new* to do, but even I don't know what that would be.GM of Gold Coast Corsairs - PCNA1 -
Tra_Lalan✭✭✭✭✭Great post, thank you.
For me the main problem described here is: how to keep the player in the game after a long time of playing.
With the tamriels one idea (that sounds cool when you are a new player, but TBH is a real pain when you played the game for 2 months or longer), ZOS decided to focus on that kind of content. Friendly rewards for no effort, just to keep you in game, and make you feel that you are loosing something when you don't do them.
All of this content (like writs, events, endavours, dailies etc), wouldn't be that bad if they were only an additnion, and not the main thing that the game has to offer to keep you engaged.
The biggest problem with ESO is that the game lacks of challenge. The overland is so trivial that it is very hard to actually play it, and not just "read it" and point and click through it.
When you start playing the game you feel Tamriel as it was a real world, you explore, you fight with enemies, and they fight back. You hide from danger, you want to get stronger. There is so much to achieve. You don't really care if there is an event going on, or if there are daily writs that you haven't done. You just play the game and expierience its adventures. But as the time passes you are to overpowered to feel that any longer, 90% of the game is no longer a game to you, its just "meh", farm simulator. So ZOS gives you those routines to keep you inside. Most of my friends havent finished "the game" (=story line) because it is so easy that they felt like they are forcing themselfs to do something boring. Guys, that is not how the "struggle to finish the game" should be designed
That beeing said, I feel that ZOS has to adress this problem (keeping players engaged), change something about it. The community is burned out. I can feel it on the forums, I can smell it in the zone chats. Much that once was is lost..
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Stamicka✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Drammanoth wrote: »
Correct, you think this way. And yet, as you can see, despite us complaining about ESO's this and that, we do find a plethora of reasons to play.
Hopefully you're not one of the 'diers' (you know, 'ESO is dying'). It is not.
Well, I'm just sharing my perspective on the game as a long time end game player. That's what the forum is for, isn't it? I don't think ESO is dying by any means, but I know for sure that the end game community is dying.Edited by Stamicka on June 22, 2022 8:10PMPC NA and Xbox NA3 -
Drammanoth✭✭✭✭✭
Fair enough. Oh, do define... endgame. What is endgame for you?Well, I'm just sharing my perspective on the game as a long time end game player. That's what the forum is for, isn't it? I don't think ESO is dying by any means, but I know for sure that the end game community is dying.
--PvP
--housing
--vet content
--filling the sticker book
--managing a group of people / guilds
Because for me it's not vet dungeons - it's housing and filling in the sticker book.0 -
Kiralyn2000✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Let's take delves for example. In my opinion, delves are horribly boring. There's no threat of dying and the delve boss can be killed in a few seconds or less. That's not very fun to me
And for all the people who don't share your likes & dislikes?
(let alone your DPS, which kills delve bosses in "a few seconds or less")Grizzbeorn wrote: »Ragnarok0130 wrote: »OP what is your history or experience with MMOs, is this your first MMO because everything you object to is and has been standard MMO design for the past couple of decades.
Not just MMOs, but aRPGs, as well.
And pretty much all "live service" games these days.The biggest problem with ESO is that the game lacks of challenge. The overland is so trivial that it is very hard to actually play it, and not just "read it" and point and click through it.
Question that keeps popping in to my head when I see this - can anyone tell me an MMO that has an overland which is challenging to endgame-geared&skilled players?
Because I certainly remember raid players in WoW 15+ years ago, just cruising through the current-level-cap overland zones... while doing their dailies & farming. (Hmm, actually, they also cruised through the zone questing at the beginning of new expansions. Because raid gear was vastly better than the new gear dropping from zones & quests. It had to be, so the non-raiding players could 'catch up' to the new gear levels.)Edited by Kiralyn2000 on June 22, 2022 8:32PM0 -
Stamicka✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Drammanoth wrote: »
Fair enough. Oh, do define... endgame. What is endgame for you?Well, I'm just sharing my perspective on the game as a long time end game player. That's what the forum is for, isn't it? I don't think ESO is dying by any means, but I know for sure that the end game community is dying.
--PvP
--housing
--vet content
--filling the sticker book
--managing a group of people / guilds
Because for me it's not vet dungeons - it's housing and filling in the sticker book.
I understand that end game can look different ways to different people. I guess I should have used the words "competitive end game" meaning Vet Trials ,Vet Arenas, and PvP. These are the end game activities that I engage in. All of those communities are shrinking each patch. Even some of the endgamers that fall on the casual side have left over Account Wide Achievements, boredom, and ESO's monetization practices though.
I'm glad you find enjoyment in ESO's current structure, but not everyone does.Edited by Stamicka on June 22, 2022 8:55PMPC NA and Xbox NA4 -
Stamicka✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Kiralyn2000 wrote: »Let's take delves for example. In my opinion, delves are horribly boring. There's no threat of dying and the delve boss can be killed in a few seconds or less. That's not very fun to me
And for all the people who don't share your likes & dislikes?
(let alone your DPS, which kills delve bosses in "a few seconds or less")Grizzbeorn wrote: »Ragnarok0130 wrote: »OP what is your history or experience with MMOs, is this your first MMO because everything you object to is and has been standard MMO design for the past couple of decades.
Not just MMOs, but aRPGs, as well.
And pretty much all "live service" games these days.The biggest problem with ESO is that the game lacks of challenge. The overland is so trivial that it is very hard to actually play it, and not just "read it" and point and click through it.
Question that keeps popping in to my head when I see this - can anyone tell me an MMO that has an overland which is challenging to endgame-geared&skilled players?
Because I certainly remember raid players in WoW 15+ years ago, just cruising through the current-level-cap overland zones... while doing their dailies & farming. (Hmm, actually, they also cruised through the zone questing at the beginning of new expansions. Because raid gear was vastly better than the new gear dropping from zones & quests. It had to be, so the non-raiding players could 'catch up' to the new gear levels.)
Obviously with thousands of players, people will have different preferences about how they want the game to be, I'm just sharing mine.Edited by Stamicka on June 22, 2022 8:58PMPC NA and Xbox NA2 -
Rohamad_Ali✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭It would be nice to see some truly "innovative" (word's been abused by Devs) new content to this MMO as well. However like many others, this game went to "Dailys" an Log in rewards right after F2P was introduced. It seems to this Khajiit that all rabbit hole F2P MMO's follow the same path to content development eventually an ESO has been no exception. Preferring subscription models with non gimmick entertainment since forever here too. We can only hope an root for the Devs that took over to dive deeper into their idea boxes soon. Otherwise We will stay out of fandom an loyalty probably. Never say this game will die. The fanbase is too big I believe for that.0 -
Amottica✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭rootkitronin wrote: »Repeatable quests are a common aspect of MMORPGs.
What is not being discussed in the opening post is how Zenimax adds new content four times a year that is more expansive in total than what many MMORPGs add to their games. This is not talking about repeatable quests but content that is one time per character.
But also, when talking about an MMORPG there is the grouping and running with players doing dungeons, raids, and PvP together. Comradery is a big aspect of such games. I play with some people who I started gaming over a decade ago.
But in the end, there is nothing hollow about any of this.
Everyone is always in such a rush to compare ESO to other MMOs, like it needs the context of how other games are less in order to make it look like more. Is ESO unable to stand on it's own?
Anyway, just because they "add" stuff to the game doesn't make it good or at all worthwhile - and while it's technically "content", a lot of what's added is very hollow, or shallow/surface-level if you'd rather.
The last few chapters have both had a very cheap and unpolished feel to them, like they stopped short in terms of effort, time, and or budget. In the end, what we got wasn't all that new - it's just reskinned (or gimmicky), a lot of it is more of the same, and for many players that's frustrating.
That's not to say it's all bad, there are still some fantastic gems buried in even the most lackluster releases (be it quests, lore, music, art design, etc.), but on a whole, innovation hasn't been a part of ESO development in a long time - it's very much cookie cutter these days.
If the last few releases are anything to go by, I think ZOS wants to just maintain the status quo and will stick to their current formula - which seems to be producing more of the same while using the minimum amount of resources possible - it's cruise control.
There's nothing wrong with that per se, and I don't think ZOS has much motivation to change things if they're working, but we don't have to pretend it's something it isn't.
I think it comes down to player expectations, if someone is happy with things as they are, then I think they're going to be happy with them for quite some time. If they're expecting something new (not reskinned) and innovative, then I would strongly suggest finding another game... or at the very least, taking breaks from ESO.
Interesting since I merely pointed out a simple fact. Also, it is clear ESO stands on its own since it is based on its own IP and has a decidedly different design in combat and other areas than the antiquated WoW and FF14 mechanics.
Everyone has their opinion and it is great we all see things differently. However, I would also point out that few are rushing to agree with the view prested in the original post which probably says more than my simple post.
Warm regards and respect for differing opinions.0 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭maximusrex45 wrote: »
Same here. I've seen as low as 4% and as high as 11% but never seen more cited than that. And it's frankly what gives them that "elite" status. Since so few can or want to do that content, those that are able to are generally viewed as skillful players.Edited by spartaxoxo on June 22, 2022 10:07PM0 -
Stamicka✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭maximusrex45 wrote: »
I have no idea what you’re referencing because there’s no source. Just because you’ve been playing MMOs for a long time doesn’t mean that your claim should be trusted. This is obviously highly variable depending on the MMO. MMOs that are marketed as PvP games with mainly a PvP focus will obviously have way more than 10% of the player base playing competitively. Regardless, it doesn’t change the fact that ESO’s PvP population and end game PVE populations are less than what they used to be, which is what we are concerned with. I remember when Cyrodiil had more than 4 campaigns and they were frequently filled while also having higher populations caps. Pair that with the fact that ESO had a much smaller population as a whole game back then. Maybe end game/ competitive players are a very small portion of the playerbase NOW, but it wasn’t always this way. It’s definitely time to consider some of the reasons for this.PC NA and Xbox NA1 -
AcadianPaladin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I found that my elf outgrew Oblivion after about 4000 hours in game. Then she outgrew Skyrim after about 4000 hours there. We are around 12,000 hours of playtime and 2000 CP in ESO with no end in sight. There is so much content that it is easy to choose activities that I really enjoy that don't offer any rewards at all - like killing alliance zone WBs. There is also plenty of fun activities that do offer rewards like a healthy selection of normal alliance zone pledges that I can solo. Even as a solo PvE player there is tons of fun stuff to do.
As far as 'progression', that is not everyone's goal. My goal - and I have achieved it - is a solid ability to fight the things I want to fight. I've no interest in DLC dungeons, vet, trials or PvP, and have touched them only enough to confirm they are not on my list of fun things to do. I revel in basically having all the tools and skills I need to enjoy my play with no cares about 'progressing'.
Players' objectives vary widely so I thought I'd just mention mine. PC NA(no Steam), PvE, mostly solo2 -
Cadbury✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Pretty much this.
Life itself is a seemingly endless collection of loops and repetition. What matters is how one faces such instances.Edited by Cadbury on June 22, 2022 11:41PM"If a person is truly desirous of something, perhaps being set on fire does not seem so bad."1 -
Mik195✭✭✭✭✭
✭AcadianPaladin wrote: »I found that my elf outgrew Oblivion after about 4000 hours in game. Then she outgrew Skyrim after about 4000 hours there. We are around 12,000 hours of playtime and 2000 CP in ESO with no end in sight. There is so much content that it is easy to choose activities that I really enjoy that don't offer any rewards at all - like killing alliance zone WBs. There is also plenty of fun activities that do offer rewards like a healthy selection of normal alliance zone pledges that I can solo. Even as a solo PvE player there is tons of fun stuff to do.
As far as 'progression', that is not everyone's goal. My goal - and I have achieved it - is a solid ability to fight the things I want to fight. I've no interest in DLC dungeons, vet, trials or PvP, and have touched them only enough to confirm they are not on my list of fun things to do. I revel in basically having all the tools and skills I need to enjoy my play with no cares about 'progressing'.
Players' objectives vary widely so I thought I'd just mention mine.
I expect to finish a vet dungeon (FG1) at dome point, but that's looking at least a year out. I can handle delves now (even Craglorn and that took a year to kill the Dwemer insect thing), public dungeons,world bosses under 2 million and base normal dungeons. I'm CP 1700ish and at best I can hit 20K DPS. Normal DPS is less than 10K.
What works in the game for you - PVP and competitive vet dungeons and trials is basically impossible for me so having these dailies that you find trivial allow me to play and improve. You have many advantages the I never will. I'm fairly sure you can bar swap, roll dodge, interrupt at a certain point (vs just hitting the troll until it stops healing), or drop an ultimate which are all things I can't count on. I don't know if the game has more people like you or like me, but I suspect that the devs do.0 -
Destai✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭rootkitronin wrote: »
If the last few releases are anything to go by, I think ZOS wants to just maintain the status quo and will stick to their current formula - which seems to be producing more of the same while using the minimum amount of resources possible - it's cruise control.
This has been my feeling for quite some time. Farming the ESO community, and putting the money elsewhere..with minimal investment into ESO itself. Small, bare-bones, cookie-cutter experiences, with a prominent Cash Shop presence.
Unfortunately, the blandness is noticeable now. In this article, the discussion rolls on about any lack of excitement for this year's chapter, which seems to also echo the deadpan tone expressed in the chapter's reveal. I mean, if the dev's aren't excited by the content, why would the players be?
At the end of the day, there is nothing wrong with criticism. And, as a product and source of entertainment, invest if you feel you are getting your money's worth..or not. Choice is a wonderful thing.
They seem to have found their rhythm and just stuck with it. Maybe it makes the development easier, who knows.
Regarding the tone from ZOS - completely agreed. I love the game and immensely appreciate it - it's home. Especially during lockdown, it really gave me a refuge.
The last year has felt rather rote. They're doing all the things necessary and yet, I don't get the warm-and-fuzzies from the CMs and people like Rich. They're good folks, but by-and-large, I don't find their approach personable.
I think the game needs that. I think the game needs better press than this, this, and this. Oh, and this. Fiascos happen, but sometimes it feels a little too often.
It's not all bad though. Nefas's interview with Finn was great. It didn't feel combative, he asked good questions. I also appreciate seeing this. We have official streams on dungeons, shout-outs to content creators, and other events.
But to defend ZOS - what do people actually want? That's the realization I've come to - there's no making everyone happy. May as well enjoy what's there, you know? I do my fair share, maybe lion's share, of criticizing, but overall, they're delivering regular content. They have streams on trials, dungeons, stickerbook - so much. So while I can appreciate some of the warranted criticism, I don't think they're all bad and I think they're giving us a good product.Edited by Destai on June 23, 2022 5:48PM0
