ESO's Heavy Reliance on Repetitive Gameplay Loops Hides a Hollow Game

Stamicka · June 2022

Over the years, ESO has introduced more and more repetitive gameplay loops into the game. I understand that these loops likely increase engagement with existing content and keep players logging in daily. However, I feel that these repetitive gameplay loops are being used to hide flawed reward systems and a lack of substance in the game. I would argue that in the games current state, these gameplay loops have become the main attraction of ESO.

First let's talk about some examples of repetitive gameplay loops within ESO. We have:
- Undaunted Dailys
- Crafting Dailys
- Zone Specific Daily quests
- Daily login rewards
- Guild Specific Dailys (Fighters Guild, Thieves Guild, etc.)

The existence of daily's isn't necessarily a bad thing on it's own, however, the way that they are used can be. Repetitive gameplay loops often offer quick rewards for easy and meaningless tasks. This small sense of reward can be addictive for some. Many people may find themselves logging in for rewards that they have no real use for, or they may find themselves doing tasks that they don't enjoy, but feel obligated to do. This system creates a fear of missing out, and as a result, many players will log in daily to engage in these loops. I understand why a company may use this type of thing when designing a game, however, I think that it only creates an illusion of fun rather than giving the players a truly good experience. These loops also have their limits, and they can cause burnout, boredom, or a feeling of emptiness.

I think that ESO's heavy reliance on easy daily repetitive tasks points to a bigger issue: The game itself is no longer that fun or rewarding. In many ways, ESO lacks a sense of progression. Each zone is filled with very easy enemies which will always be the same level and the same difficulty regardless of the zone. This design has its benefits, but also has some drawbacks. I personally enjoyed the sense of overland progression offered in the pre-One Tamriel state of the game. The pre-One Tamriel sense of progression was sacrificed in favor of making the game easier to play with friends. This isn't a bad thing by any means, but the sense of progression and reward systems were never adjusted or made up for. This leads me to my final question and the main point of the post.

Would you be doing content if it wasn't backed by a daily quest?
Is there any real reason to explore a delve, complete a dungeon, or fight a world boss without a daily quest to motivate you? In many situations the answer is no. There are many ways a game can motivate you to do content that doesn't involve a repetitive loop.
These reasons include:

1. Just for the Fun of It
Sometimes the only reason to engage in content is just to have fun, and that is perfectly ok! The caveat here of course, is that the content has to be fun on its own. For years, the only reason I PvPed was because it was fun. In the earlier days of the game, Cyrodiil didn't offer many tangible rewards, but I enjoyed myself whenever I went in there. This gave me a reason to play. Of course, ZOS has abandoned PvP and the many unaddressed issues have ruined the fun. I also used to enjoy Veteran Dungeons because they offered a fun challenge to overcome with friends. The difficulty of veteran content has been indirectly vastly reduced by power creep. Without difficulty or threat of dying, many encounters become stale, boring, and meaningless.

2. Meaningful Reward
One reason to do content is for a meaningful reward. I'm not talking about a small amount of gold or measly crafting materials, but an exclusive cosmetic or piece of gear. Over time, challenging achievements have started to give less and less reward. Many difficult achievements give lackluster rewards, or nothing at all. It feels like many rewards do not match the difficulty of an achievement. Exclusivity can also make a reward more appealing. People like to accomplish difficult things and have something to show for it. At this point, most Crown Store items look way better than anything you can earn in the game. Additionally, the declining difficulty of the game has devalued some of the older rewards.

3. Personal Accomplishment/ Sense of Progression
One thing not really offered by repeatable and repetitive gameplay loops is a sense of progression. Sometimes it just feels good to progress, and I feel like that's missing from ESO. In the early days of the game, the reason I did one piece of content was to prepare me for a harder piece of content. If all content is equally/ relatively easy, this sort of progression doesn't really exist. Additionally, there is very little difference between the rewards you get from Veteran mode vs the rewards you get from Normal mode.

Conclusion
ZOS should consider a rework of the core progression and reward systems currently in the game. Currently, the flawed system design is hidden by the repetitive gameplay loops that currently fill the game. There also needs to be more focus on content with long term appeal such as PvP and difficult end game PvE. Without these things, ESO will continue to grow stale as many Veteran players leave from boredom.

Tannus15 · June 2022

ESO has more content that any MMO i've ever played, and because of the way levelling works it's all relevant.
To judge the game by the dailies in crazy to me.

The dailies are basically the icing, the zone content is the cake.

wolfie1.0. · June 2022

All MMOs are designed around repetitive functions. All of them.

Otherwise they would have to end at some point. Those are usually single player games.

wolfie1.0. · June 2022

Stamicka wrote: »

Over the years, ESO has introduced more and more repetitive gameplay loops into the game. I understand that these loops likely increase engagement with existing content and keep players logging in daily. However, I feel that these repetitive gameplay loops are being used to hide flawed reward systems and a lack of substance in the game. I would argue that in the games current state, these gameplay loops have become the main attraction of ESO.

First let's talk about some examples of repetitive gameplay loops within ESO. We have:
- Undaunted Dailys
- Crafting Dailys
- Zone Specific Daily quests
- Daily login rewards
- Guild Specific Dailys (Fighters Guild, Thieves Guild, etc.)

The existence of daily's isn't necessarily a bad thing on it's own, however, the way that they are used can be. Repetitive gameplay loops often offer quick rewards for easy and meaningless tasks. This small sense of reward can be addictive for some. Many people may find themselves logging in for rewards that they have no real use for, or they may find themselves doing tasks that they don't enjoy, but feel obligated to do. This system creates a fear of missing out, and as a result, many players will log in daily to engage in these loops. I understand why a company may use this type of thing when designing a game, however, I think that it only creates an illusion of fun rather than giving the players a truly good experience. These loops also have their limits, and they can cause burnout, boredom, or a feeling of emptiness.

I think that ESO's heavy reliance on easy daily repetitive tasks points to a bigger issue: The game itself is no longer that fun or rewarding. In many ways, ESO lacks a sense of progression. Each zone is filled with very easy enemies which will always be the same level and the same difficulty regardless of the zone. This design has its benefits, but also has some drawbacks. I personally enjoyed the sense of overland progression offered in the pre-One Tamriel state of the game. The pre-One Tamriel sense of progression was sacrificed in favor of making the game easier to play with friends. This isn't a bad thing by any means, but the sense of progression and reward systems were never adjusted or made up for. This leads me to my final question and the main point of the post.

Would you be doing content if it wasn't backed by a daily quest?
Is there any real reason to explore a delve, complete a dungeon, or fight a world boss without a daily quest to motivate you? In many situations the answer is no. There are many ways a game can motivate you to do content that doesn't involve a repetitive loop.
These reasons include:

1. Just for the Fun of It
Sometimes the only reason to engage in content is just to have fun, and that is perfectly ok! The caveat here of course, is that the content has to be fun on its own. For years, the only reason I PvPed was because it was fun. In the earlier days of the game, Cyrodiil didn't offer many tangible rewards, but I enjoyed myself whenever I went in there. This gave me a reason to play. Of course, ZOS has abandoned PvP and the many unaddressed issues have ruined the fun. I also used to enjoy Veteran Dungeons because they offered a fun challenge to overcome with friends. The difficulty of veteran content has been indirectly vastly reduced by power creep. Without difficulty or threat of dying, many encounters become stale, boring, and meaningless.

2. Meaningful Reward
One reason to do content is for a meaningful reward. I'm not talking about a small amount of gold or measly crafting materials, but an exclusive cosmetic or piece of gear. Over time, challenging achievements have started to give less and less reward. Many difficult achievements give lackluster rewards, or nothing at all. It feels like many rewards do not match the difficulty of an achievement. Exclusivity can also make a reward more appealing. People like to accomplish difficult things and have something to show for it. At this point, most Crown Store items look way better than anything you can earn in the game. Additionally, the declining difficulty of the game has devalued some of the older rewards.

3. Personal Accomplishment/ Sense of Progression
One thing not really offered by repeatable and repetitive gameplay loops is a sense of progression. Sometimes it just feels good to progress, and I feel like that's missing from ESO. In the early days of the game, the reason I did one piece of content was to prepare me for a harder piece of content. If all content is equally/ relatively easy, this sort of progression doesn't really exist. Additionally, there is very little difference between the rewards you get from Veteran mode vs the rewards you get from Normal mode.

Conclusion
ZOS should consider a rework of the core progression and reward systems currently in the game. Currently, the flawed system design is hidden by the repetitive gameplay loops that currently fill the game. There also needs to be more focus on content with long term appeal such as PvP and difficult end game PvE. Without these things, ESO will continue to grow stale as many Veteran players leave from boredom.

Also, I will add that those competitive PVE and PVP functions you want ZOS to focus on are nothing more than what you claim ZOS needs to have removed.

bmnoble · June 2022

Aren't the PVP and end game PVE players a fairly small portion of the player base though?

You can't expect one piece of entertainment to keep you entertained forever, I don't expect ESO or any game to be my sole source of entertainment, I play it because I want to when I want to.

Stamicka · June 2022

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

All MMOs are designed around repetitive functions. All of them.

Otherwise they would have to end at some point. Those are usually single player games.

This post is a bit more nuanced than "repetitive content is bad". I don't think that. I'm arguing against repetition for the sake of repetition. In other words, content should be fun on it's own and the reason to replay something shouldn't be because "a daily quest told me to." Let's take delves for example. In my opinion, delves are horribly boring. There's no threat of dying and the delve boss can be killed in a few seconds or less. That's not very fun to me, so there's no reason for me to revisit a delve unless a daily quest tells me to (which many of them do).

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

Stamicka wrote: »

Over the years, ESO has introduced more and more repetitive gameplay loops into the game. I understand that these loops likely increase engagement with existing content and keep players logging in daily. However, I feel that these repetitive gameplay loops are being used to hide flawed reward systems and a lack of substance in the game. I would argue that in the games current state, these gameplay loops have become the main attraction of ESO.

First let's talk about some examples of repetitive gameplay loops within ESO. We have:
- Undaunted Dailys
- Crafting Dailys
- Zone Specific Daily quests
- Daily login rewards
- Guild Specific Dailys (Fighters Guild, Thieves Guild, etc.)

The existence of daily's isn't necessarily a bad thing on it's own, however, the way that they are used can be. Repetitive gameplay loops often offer quick rewards for easy and meaningless tasks. This small sense of reward can be addictive for some. Many people may find themselves logging in for rewards that they have no real use for, or they may find themselves doing tasks that they don't enjoy, but feel obligated to do. This system creates a fear of missing out, and as a result, many players will log in daily to engage in these loops. I understand why a company may use this type of thing when designing a game, however, I think that it only creates an illusion of fun rather than giving the players a truly good experience. These loops also have their limits, and they can cause burnout, boredom, or a feeling of emptiness.

I think that ESO's heavy reliance on easy daily repetitive tasks points to a bigger issue: The game itself is no longer that fun or rewarding. In many ways, ESO lacks a sense of progression. Each zone is filled with very easy enemies which will always be the same level and the same difficulty regardless of the zone. This design has its benefits, but also has some drawbacks. I personally enjoyed the sense of overland progression offered in the pre-One Tamriel state of the game. The pre-One Tamriel sense of progression was sacrificed in favor of making the game easier to play with friends. This isn't a bad thing by any means, but the sense of progression and reward systems were never adjusted or made up for. This leads me to my final question and the main point of the post.

Would you be doing content if it wasn't backed by a daily quest?
Is there any real reason to explore a delve, complete a dungeon, or fight a world boss without a daily quest to motivate you? In many situations the answer is no. There are many ways a game can motivate you to do content that doesn't involve a repetitive loop.
These reasons include:

1. Just for the Fun of It
Sometimes the only reason to engage in content is just to have fun, and that is perfectly ok! The caveat here of course, is that the content has to be fun on its own. For years, the only reason I PvPed was because it was fun. In the earlier days of the game, Cyrodiil didn't offer many tangible rewards, but I enjoyed myself whenever I went in there. This gave me a reason to play. Of course, ZOS has abandoned PvP and the many unaddressed issues have ruined the fun. I also used to enjoy Veteran Dungeons because they offered a fun challenge to overcome with friends. The difficulty of veteran content has been indirectly vastly reduced by power creep. Without difficulty or threat of dying, many encounters become stale, boring, and meaningless.

2. Meaningful Reward
One reason to do content is for a meaningful reward. I'm not talking about a small amount of gold or measly crafting materials, but an exclusive cosmetic or piece of gear. Over time, challenging achievements have started to give less and less reward. Many difficult achievements give lackluster rewards, or nothing at all. It feels like many rewards do not match the difficulty of an achievement. Exclusivity can also make a reward more appealing. People like to accomplish difficult things and have something to show for it. At this point, most Crown Store items look way better than anything you can earn in the game. Additionally, the declining difficulty of the game has devalued some of the older rewards.

3. Personal Accomplishment/ Sense of Progression
One thing not really offered by repeatable and repetitive gameplay loops is a sense of progression. Sometimes it just feels good to progress, and I feel like that's missing from ESO. In the early days of the game, the reason I did one piece of content was to prepare me for a harder piece of content. If all content is equally/ relatively easy, this sort of progression doesn't really exist. Additionally, there is very little difference between the rewards you get from Veteran mode vs the rewards you get from Normal mode.

Conclusion
ZOS should consider a rework of the core progression and reward systems currently in the game. Currently, the flawed system design is hidden by the repetitive gameplay loops that currently fill the game. There also needs to be more focus on content with long term appeal such as PvP and difficult end game PvE. Without these things, ESO will continue to grow stale as many Veteran players leave from boredom.

Also, I will add that those competitive PVE and PVP functions you want ZOS to focus on are nothing more than what you claim ZOS needs to have removed.

I never said I wanted dailys removed, but I want more focus on PvP and difficult PvE content. Once again, the point is that repeated content should be more about fun rather than a task to check off of a list.

Amottica · June 2022

Repeatable quests are a common aspect of MMORPGs.

What is not being discussed in the opening post is how Zenimax adds new content four times a year that is more expansive in total than what many MMORPGs add to their games. This is not talking about repeatable quests but content that is one time per character.

But also, when talking about an MMORPG there is the grouping and running with players doing dungeons, raids, and PvP together. Comradery is a big aspect of such games. I play with some people who I started gaming over a decade ago.

But in the end, there is nothing hollow about any of this.

Stamicka · June 2022

bmnoble wrote: »

Aren't the PVP and end game PVE players a fairly small portion of the player base though?

You can't expect one piece of entertainment to keep you entertained forever, I don't expect ESO or any game to be my sole source of entertainment, I play it because I want to when I want to.

Why do you think they are only a small portion of the players? Many of the ones I have known quit because of lack of challenge, boredom, or they just felt ignored. There used to be many more people interested in PvP and competitive PVE.

wolfie1.0. · June 2022

Stamicka wrote: »

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

All MMOs are designed around repetitive functions. All of them.

Otherwise they would have to end at some point. Those are usually single player games.

This post is a bit more nuanced than "repetitive content is bad". I don't think that. I'm arguing against repetition for the sake of repetition. In other words, content should be fun on it's own and the reason to replay something shouldn't be because "a daily quest told me to." Let's take delves for example. In my opinion, delves are horribly boring. There's no threat of dying and the delve boss can be killed in a few seconds or less. That's not very fun to me, so there's no reason for me to revisit a delve unless a daily quest tells me to (which many of them do).

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

Stamicka wrote: »

Over the years, ESO has introduced more and more repetitive gameplay loops into the game. I understand that these loops likely increase engagement with existing content and keep players logging in daily. However, I feel that these repetitive gameplay loops are being used to hide flawed reward systems and a lack of substance in the game. I would argue that in the games current state, these gameplay loops have become the main attraction of ESO.

First let's talk about some examples of repetitive gameplay loops within ESO. We have:
- Undaunted Dailys
- Crafting Dailys
- Zone Specific Daily quests
- Daily login rewards
- Guild Specific Dailys (Fighters Guild, Thieves Guild, etc.)

The existence of daily's isn't necessarily a bad thing on it's own, however, the way that they are used can be. Repetitive gameplay loops often offer quick rewards for easy and meaningless tasks. This small sense of reward can be addictive for some. Many people may find themselves logging in for rewards that they have no real use for, or they may find themselves doing tasks that they don't enjoy, but feel obligated to do. This system creates a fear of missing out, and as a result, many players will log in daily to engage in these loops. I understand why a company may use this type of thing when designing a game, however, I think that it only creates an illusion of fun rather than giving the players a truly good experience. These loops also have their limits, and they can cause burnout, boredom, or a feeling of emptiness.

I think that ESO's heavy reliance on easy daily repetitive tasks points to a bigger issue: The game itself is no longer that fun or rewarding. In many ways, ESO lacks a sense of progression. Each zone is filled with very easy enemies which will always be the same level and the same difficulty regardless of the zone. This design has its benefits, but also has some drawbacks. I personally enjoyed the sense of overland progression offered in the pre-One Tamriel state of the game. The pre-One Tamriel sense of progression was sacrificed in favor of making the game easier to play with friends. This isn't a bad thing by any means, but the sense of progression and reward systems were never adjusted or made up for. This leads me to my final question and the main point of the post.

Would you be doing content if it wasn't backed by a daily quest?
Is there any real reason to explore a delve, complete a dungeon, or fight a world boss without a daily quest to motivate you? In many situations the answer is no. There are many ways a game can motivate you to do content that doesn't involve a repetitive loop.
These reasons include:

1. Just for the Fun of It
Sometimes the only reason to engage in content is just to have fun, and that is perfectly ok! The caveat here of course, is that the content has to be fun on its own. For years, the only reason I PvPed was because it was fun. In the earlier days of the game, Cyrodiil didn't offer many tangible rewards, but I enjoyed myself whenever I went in there. This gave me a reason to play. Of course, ZOS has abandoned PvP and the many unaddressed issues have ruined the fun. I also used to enjoy Veteran Dungeons because they offered a fun challenge to overcome with friends. The difficulty of veteran content has been indirectly vastly reduced by power creep. Without difficulty or threat of dying, many encounters become stale, boring, and meaningless.

2. Meaningful Reward
One reason to do content is for a meaningful reward. I'm not talking about a small amount of gold or measly crafting materials, but an exclusive cosmetic or piece of gear. Over time, challenging achievements have started to give less and less reward. Many difficult achievements give lackluster rewards, or nothing at all. It feels like many rewards do not match the difficulty of an achievement. Exclusivity can also make a reward more appealing. People like to accomplish difficult things and have something to show for it. At this point, most Crown Store items look way better than anything you can earn in the game. Additionally, the declining difficulty of the game has devalued some of the older rewards.

3. Personal Accomplishment/ Sense of Progression
One thing not really offered by repeatable and repetitive gameplay loops is a sense of progression. Sometimes it just feels good to progress, and I feel like that's missing from ESO. In the early days of the game, the reason I did one piece of content was to prepare me for a harder piece of content. If all content is equally/ relatively easy, this sort of progression doesn't really exist. Additionally, there is very little difference between the rewards you get from Veteran mode vs the rewards you get from Normal mode.

Conclusion
ZOS should consider a rework of the core progression and reward systems currently in the game. Currently, the flawed system design is hidden by the repetitive gameplay loops that currently fill the game. There also needs to be more focus on content with long term appeal such as PvP and difficult end game PvE. Without these things, ESO will continue to grow stale as many Veteran players leave from boredom.

Also, I will add that those competitive PVE and PVP functions you want ZOS to focus on are nothing more than what you claim ZOS needs to have removed.

I never said I wanted dailys removed, but I want more focus on PvP and difficult PvE content. Once again, the point is that repeated content should be more about fun rather than a task to check off of a list.

I'm not exactly sure what you want here then. ZOS releases a new pve dungeons and trials on a pretty much regular basis. Not everyone can complete them as is. I mean how many people do you know that can do a no death, speed run, hardmode in all dungeons? And what % of the player base do those people make up?

The difficulty of PVP content is player driven.

As for the rest... well, here is the thing. ZOS needs all types of people to play eso to keep the lights on. So there needs to be content for everyone. That includes the people that like short fast repeative quests that you can do for rewards.

Fun is highly subjective, it's what you make of it.

Those words you compiled about repetition and reliance on it for game play experiences? You described almost every hour I have spent in PVP activities. Not fun, repetitive, and boring. Even tales of tribute is repetitive and boring playing it too much.

You can't remove the grind from an MMO and have it stick around for any length of time.

Emmagoldman · June 2022

I understand your point. Personally, I broke out of the daily loop! Its a tremendous waste of rl time, however, I understand the allure of it.

I personally do what I enjoy and will set my own goals. If I get bored, I stop playing all together or switch up what I'm doing.

I consider myself as a pvper but the lack of new content and shear boredom has driven me away. Really, tons of new houses, many of which are big enough to be there own BG maps, but release after release and crickets. I mostly now just tank in pve to try something new.

I will say its a great feeling to not care if you get the next carrot on a stick. Or better yet, just wait till the end of an event to buy everything easy, after prices have dropped. Just leave the work aspect of it to others

xaraan · June 2022

Yea, there's a lot of hollowness in the game, but as far as MMOs go, it's not bad. Definitely could be better and they do tend to fall onto the same tricks and both zos and players give the methods a pass with the ol' that's how MMOs are excuse. So they definitely aren't breaking any ground outside of the initial differences like fully voiced and such. There is also some staff that could be better. But with all that being said, I'm not sure we could expect much more at the time and cost going now.

Bobargus · June 2022

I have experienced another feeling of hollowness that this game provides to altoholic players.

Imagine this scenario please:

I make a character.

I level it up to a point where you would say that "i've spent some time on it".

And then something happens, and i just realize that i don't like my character or my build anymore, or perhaps it's something else.

I delete that character, and then start over again by creating another character.

Ad Infinitum.

This is what i hate about the game the most. When i dedicate myself on something, i feel like i'm losing time on all other probabilities. I just want to be able to learn and do everything with my character.

tl,dr: I hate re-leveling characters all the way from the scratch, and i hate classes. I wish it was more like Skyrim, no classes.

rootkitronin · June 2022

Amottica wrote: »

Repeatable quests are a common aspect of MMORPGs.

What is not being discussed in the opening post is how Zenimax adds new content four times a year that is more expansive in total than what many MMORPGs add to their games. This is not talking about repeatable quests but content that is one time per character.

But also, when talking about an MMORPG there is the grouping and running with players doing dungeons, raids, and PvP together. Comradery is a big aspect of such games. I play with some people who I started gaming over a decade ago.

But in the end, there is nothing hollow about any of this.

Everyone is always in such a rush to compare ESO to other MMOs, like it needs the context of how other games are less in order to make it look like more. Is ESO unable to stand on it's own?

Anyway, just because they "add" stuff to the game doesn't make it good or at all worthwhile - and while it's technically "content", a lot of what's added is very hollow, or shallow/surface-level if you'd rather.

The last few chapters have both had a very cheap and unpolished feel to them, like they stopped short in terms of effort, time, and or budget. In the end, what we got wasn't all that new - it's just reskinned (or gimmicky), a lot of it is more of the same, and for many players that's frustrating.

That's not to say it's all bad, there are still some fantastic gems buried in even the most lackluster releases (be it quests, lore, music, art design, etc.), but on a whole, innovation hasn't been a part of ESO development in a long time - it's very much cookie cutter these days.

If the last few releases are anything to go by, I think ZOS wants to just maintain the status quo and will stick to their current formula - which seems to be producing more of the same while using the minimum amount of resources possible - it's cruise control.

There's nothing wrong with that per se, and I don't think ZOS has much motivation to change things if they're working, but we don't have to pretend it's something it isn't.

I think it comes down to player expectations, if someone is happy with things as they are, then I think they're going to be happy with them for quite some time. If they're expecting something new (not reskinned) and innovative, then I would strongly suggest finding another game... or at the very least, taking breaks from ESO.

colossalvoids · June 2022

In the end of it my decision on this problem was to mostly login for raid/dungeon times, like a bigger part of my friendlist did. Even small things like "motif drops on X date instead of release" can suck a lot of fun out of it compared to be out on release when content is still fun and new. We know it's a way to prolong people's "engagement" with said content but serves as a fun sucking magnet for a lot of folks.

I'd prefer them designing more content that is fun (not mentioning this term is heavily subjective, hence we have a lot of activities to try cater to more people) by itself and can stand the test of time without such gimmicks, I know it requires effort but that's the point.

Danikat · June 2022

I don't do any dailies every day. The only ones I do frequently are the crafting writs and that's because I want the rewards from them (mainly master writs so I can get tokens for furniture plans). When there's a festival running and I want event tickets I'll also do one quest/activity/whatever per day to get them. If a festival has unique quests (so only New Life and the Jester's Festival) I'll also make sure I do all of them at least once per year, usually by taking a day to do all of them in one go. (For some reason the NPCs always give me one of two quests first, then the other one of that pair second and I have to complete or reject both to get something different.)

I will do endeavours most days I'm online, but a lot of them get completed without me having to do anything special. When I do have to go out of my way it's easy to vary them - for example if I'm doing "kill X of creature type" I'll try to pick somewhere that has that type of creature where I haven't been in a while. Or if I know what's coming up for one of my alts I'll pick one that matches.

That's not to say I don't repeat content at other times. There's dungeons I've done multiple times either because I wanted something from it or because a guild mate wanted help, and I have 6 characters plus a dedicated crafter so of course there's overlap in what they've each completed, but it's spaced out enough that it doesn't get repetitive for me. But I wouldn't say I'm repeating stuff just because the game tells me to.

But I think the big difference between me and people who feel they're stuck doing repetitive dailies just because it's the only thing available is I'm not looking for ESO to be my sole source of entertainment. It's not the only game I play, it's not even the only MMO and gaming is not my only hobby. So if I'm feeling bored with ESO I can easily go and do something else instead of feeling like I have to do boring and repetitive quests just because they're there. It also means I play slower than a lot of those people (and again: 6 characters working their way through quests, not in the same order) so it's unlikely I'm ever going to run out of new things to do unless ZOS stop releasing new content.

Kaelthorn_Nightbloom · June 2022

100% agree and Mythic leads are one of the worst offenders. It's fake interest and uncompelling gameplay.

Thankfully there's PvP which adds some randomness and excitement.

dinokstrunz · June 2022

bmnoble wrote: »

Aren't the PVP and end game PVE players a fairly small portion of the player base though?

You can't expect one piece of entertainment to keep you entertained forever, I don't expect ESO or any game to be my sole source of entertainment, I play it because I want to when I want to.

Wouldn't surprise me since this are the two major areas of the game that are consistently neglected & underwhelming. A lot of people who play for end game have simply given up or moved on to other rival MMOs who offer much more end game wise than ESO. ESO biggest weak points are its stale combat which has barely changed over 7 years on some classes and lack of worthy end game pvp & pve.

hounddawg1953_ESO · June 2022

Many years back one of the Ultima Online developers stated that all MMO's are a grind. The trick is making the grind fun. I have been playing ESO since beta but take a sabbatical when the fun stops but always return after a few months

eovogtb16_ESO · June 2022

You're definitly right. That being said I have done zero of these loops except the daily logins because I just log in to PVP or raid every day.

AvalonRanger · June 2022

Consider 1 gold material for the skyrim dolman and dragon hunting daily.

First of all, daily mission reward of those is too much poor compared with actual work.
It's a very time wasting job now. We don't need just 200G junk for it.

Second, the price of those things become too much high in guild shop.
Especially, the cloth wax is 38K per each now. Nonsense. Must stop gold inflation.
Otherwise, the economy balance of ESO will be bankrupt.

etchedpixels · June 2022

There are people who like grind games. There are entire games built solely as grind games (eg Albion). There are people who like stories, people in it for the trading farming, for the housing, there are apparently even people who like fishing. If you don't like an aspect of the game don't do it. If you want to play it like Skyrim, then you can ignore all the daily stuff, do all the stories - which takes quite some time, and then go play another game.

I would say that's a sign of a well designed large open game. You can be a lot of different things but you don't have to be the ones that don't interest you.

Aetherderius · June 2022

If all these apparent end-gamers who have grown too powerful want to somehow imbue me with their buttonpressing speed, I'd really appreciate it. Big congrats to them all for getting numbers so big that they've lost the joy of playing a game.

Take breaks, play new games, start new characters without planning endgame builds for them. Make a silly blizzard wizard lizard just for kicks.

People outgrow games. It happens.

Rowjoh · June 2022

Thank you for taking the time and trouble to write an interesting and well articulated piece.

I agree with the main premise, maybe not so much on a couple of sub-points, but nevertheless its great to see an insightful post like this

Sevalaricgirl · June 2022

Well, I have to disagree with you OP. I think there is plenty to keep me busy in the game and never do zone dailies and rarely do crafting dailies. There is plenty of story content and yeah, been here since beta. I just have one character from every class to play through all the content with.

Northwold · June 2022

While i agree with the OP, I didn't used to feel that way. For me, what changed was the move to the "year of" format. Spending an entire year on the same story in a similar zone plain doesn't interest me. It's monotonous and results in artificial breaks in stories that weren't expecially interesting in the first place.

Before, you could at least look forward to the next DLC being completely different. Now, you're stuck with "oh, now I have to wait for this story to conclude with more of the same", and if you want variety it's a case of waiting a whole year.

Vaoh · June 2022

I think it’s good there are many choices.

What I do not like are the “Complete 30 of this type of Daily” achievements. There’s no reason to make the achievement require such a grind. It should be an absolute maximum of 10.

Biggest offender is Murkmire Prepper. That achievement requires 150 dailies.... just why? That is gross.

tauriel01 · June 2022

if you think it is a hollow game, there are plenty of other games out there. Go find one you don't think is hollow.

Gaebriel0410 · June 2022

I don't know, I think it's a mindset really. Like, I could never see a game as a gameplay loop. If you dissect it like that, every game is a gameplay loop at its core. Hell, even life is a loop if approached in such a way, you get up and go to sleep every day. Some breathing inbetween. Intake of nutritional values. Nerf sugar, buff lemon.

A game having dailies doesn't mean you have to do them all day every day. I'd go mad within two weeks if I did that myself.
Sometimes I don't even do writs when I play, save for my main character. The only time I farm writs on all my characters is during the anniversary event, and afterwards I am usually not touching them for a week or two, even while it's just 2 mins with an addon.

I do agree that ESO needs better rewards, though I think they've done better with that in recent years, as I remember how it was at the start haha. The Tribute match rewards are a good step in the right direction imo, furnishing plans, motifs and furnishing mats are nice to find in the boxes.

I also agree that Murkmire Prepper is ridiculous, but then again we have also had the "farm 10k nodes" achievements or however many it was to unlock the butterfly bush. Though still as a mmo, I think there should be some of those long term achievements too.

Ragnarok0130 · June 2022

OP what is your history or experience with MMOs, is this your first MMO because everything you object to is and has been standard MMO design for the past couple of decades.

TaSheen · June 2022

Tannus15 wrote: »

ESO has more content that any MMO i've ever played, and because of the way levelling works it's all relevant.
To judge the game by the dailies in crazy to me.

The dailies are basically the icing, the zone content is the cake.

Absolutely! Fully agree with this statement.

Arthtur · June 2022

Well i dont think there is a problem with those "gameplay loops". I would say that the problem is with difficulty (or lack of it) and reward (or lack of it).

Will i do WB or Delve just for fun? WB rarely, Delve never. Why? Because those are just too easy to me to have fun and rewards arent that good. Thats why i do those Daily Quests. I like motifs and housing so yeah. I get a reason to do those. Is it fun tho? No.

But thats the problem with everything. Weaker players cant enjoy DLC dungeons for story because those are too hard for them while for good players overland is too easy. If there would be Story Mode for dungeons and Challenge mode for WB/Delves/Story Quests both sides would have more fun from the content we get. At least thats my opinion.

And rewards... well i said it many times. If 2 mounts out of 40+ from Crown Store would be used as a reward in Dungeons/Complete Zone in Overland then rewards would look a lot better. Of course there is a lot of diffrent options as diffrent ppl like diffrent things.
We could talk here about new big houses for gold (or lack of them) and many diffrent things but that was said many times already.

Will anything change? Doubt it. Ppl prefer to fight each other (Vet Overland/Rewards in content) than to understand the needs that other side have.