Why arent you addressing that most of the botting is occurring due to game scripting for addons

Blackwolfe5 · May 2014

But surely, if it's is a Dragonmother, the doll should be female.

WhiteQueen · May 2014

@AlexDougherty wrote: »

WhiteQueen wrote: »

2) Can we get a definitive mod post on the difference between third-party bot hacks and API add-ons? Because some people apparently cannot comprehend the difference.

An Addon should not add any inputs to a game, it can monitor what's going on, and modify what you see (FOV addon), but should not alter what's happening, or activate any ablities or make move or any actions of any sort.

I would like to see an official list of approved and banned addons though, and make it a sticky at the top of the addons forum, so people can constantly check it, and suggest new addons for inclusion or banning.

ShintaiDK wrote: »

I use addons myself. But the concept of addons is simply terrible.

ESO should essentially just implement whatever good addons there is a year ahead or something and then close the API.

Nice idea, but new addons are always being invented, and to say we can't have because it was invented after a cut-off date would annoy people

Hi. Yes. My point was some people just don't comprehend the difference. Thus, I asked a mod to make a post stating the difference. Hopefully the people posting nonsense in this thread will read that.

Squishy · May 2014

Well, one way would be to setup a workshop like area, where all approved addons are dropped (with a signature added to a DB), then the client checks on launch if unauthorized addons are added

. Or something along these lines, coding ain't my field really, just a suggestion on the principle

.

sargon666777b14a_ESO · May 2014

Removing the Addons would have little to no effect on the bots. If you want simple proof look at Guild Wars 2.. it does not support addons.. has tons of bots.. there are many ways to make a bot, and this is just one way they can do that...

Draxinusom · May 2014

Squishy wrote: »

Well, one way would be to setup a workshop like area, where all approved addons are dropped (with a signature added to a DB), then the client checks on launch if unauthorized addons are added . Or something along these lines, coding ain't my field really, just a suggestion on the principle .

This works technically (ie. it's possible to do this) but has a huge amount of strings attached.

For example, as a developer you could no longer test your addons. If they are unapproved how do you run them to ensure they actually work? How do you fix bugs when changing a single thing means the signature breaks and your previously approved addon is now unapproved again and need aproval again. Not to mention the huge overhead getting stuff approved (by whom? Zenimax? They better spend resources elsewhere)

It's also completely unneccessary because just as I explained, addons aren't fully autonomous processes, they are scripts interpreted by the game and subject to control of the game. They can only use functions provided by the game explicitly for the use in addons in the first place and if someone finds a way to do something ZOS doesn't want it to be able to do, they remove or restrict that function and the addon simply won't work anymore.

So while the method of limitation works retroactive in this current scheme in contrast to your idea, it works the same in removing unwanted capabilities of addons with the added plus that it requires far less (human) resources to manage.

Drachenmutter · May 2014

Scriptions of Buts works very well and what did they? Make the game script to their own suscription and so on. What Programs are the best to do that, uknown one, who write over existings and are be running under Linuxsystems, no one will find out, that the way it is. But anyway, you will find it out, some times!

FezzikVizzini · May 2014

*Edited: Botting explanations aren't allowed*

Draxinusom · May 2014

Yeah client side manipulation is what hacks use, but that's got nothing to do at all with addons (addons cannot do that).

As a remark, pretty much all MMOs do client side movement, otherwise you simply couldn't enjoy gameplay outside single player. It's got to do with physics, propagation of information, speed of light, etc. what players generally call latency. (Latency and lag are two distinct things but most player look at it synonymously).

So doing client side processing is nothing new and nothing surprising. It is also what allows botting. The only thing you can do really is destroying the market or engaging in the arms race with the botters getting them out.

It was actually interesting to see live the evolution of such a race between botting and anti-botting in WoW. The very first step was that there was a china farmer on my realm at start of WoW. It was a real person, a chinese who talked broken english. He played the game just like we all did, except he sold his stuff to other players to gain gold. You could chat with him and he was kinda friendly (and not an issue at all).

Then the market began to build and subsequently demand for "cheap gold". The next step was bots that did exactly what they do in ESO: Farm resource nodes. They got reported, Blizzard got faster in banning them. Then the next step in the evolution was the bots teleported to nodes and zoomed around fast. This too got reported so the botters looked for ways to avoid getting reported by players. They then went into instances (not public ones) where no other players were around so they couldn't get reported. Generally they teleported to bosses, flew around in the room so the boss couldn't damage them and once dead, looted the boss, went out of the instance, spawned a new one and repeated it, ad infinitum.

Blizzard caught up and implemented an instance spawn limiter for players ("You can only spawn 5 instances within 1 hour") before having a solid detection for teleporting bots.

So step by step it went further. It's an arms race. At some points botters found out that it's easier to not bot and simply steal legitimate players accounts, so that's when phising and credential stealing started to become commonplace.

Anyway, sorry for the long tangent. I just want to add you cannot control every single thing a client does or observe them the whole time from the server. It would exceed any available cpu processing power by far. There are ways to limit and detect aberrant behavior but generally it's very specific, complicated and neither easy to implement nor to maintain and adapt in the constantly evolving arms race.

I'm sure ZOS has a team looking to combat botters and spammers, but if you think there's the magic silber bullet that if only or only when it gets implemented will rid you of botters for once and all, you'll be waiting for a very long time. It's a market, there's money in it to be made, and as long as that is the case (and that basically means a successful MMO, mind you!) there will be someone providing that "service" using any means he has available in getting stuff.

stefaan.de.wasch1b16_ESO · May 2014

Great... now you are gonna post a link and an explination to botting and trainer software ????

Good idea man... very very good idea....

Come on... seriously ????

Squishy · May 2014

@stefaan, look at the comments from the link, the dl links no longer works

.

Bit of a pointless post for the link, as it only states what I think all of us already know, there are issues, and many people are exploiting them.

It does however, state that they use F11 and shift F11 for the tp to go... I'm guessing Zeni could simply deactivate all FKeys and remap the help to another key. It'll only be temporary as a solution, but it should at least force whoever is using it to buy the new version, and get rid of the people that just got hold of the link for it...

Just a thought though

.

crush83 · May 2014

I love all the ignorance from people who pretend they understand how bots function.

Sure, there are some bots that are nothing more than AutoIt scripts reading memory and sending input to the client. Those are naive, and can be stopped fairly easily by Zenimax.

Those aren't the problem, though.
---
There is a single bridge between the ESO client and the ESO server(s). It's the net layer. The ESO server can only response to what the ESO client sends it. The ESO server can't see what you have running on your computer.

For this reason, sophisticated bots completely replace the ESO client, with a custom, console based client.

This custom client has no graphics. It has no software programmed by ZOS, Bethesda, or anyone that cares about bots in ESO. No amount of counter-cheat programs like Punkbuster will make a difference because Punkbuster is also, just a client.

We call this emulating a client.

Your custom application receives a message from ESO's server. It then sends the appropriate message back to ESO's server.

There is no input device needed. There are no mouse clicks needed. There are no keyboard strokes needed.

It's simple message processing. Nothing more is needed.

The server sends to clients in the area of the boss a message that says "display this boss model with this properties so that the client can interact with it". The bot client receives this message, and immediately sends back messages saying that it is attacking it.

The custom client sends a message to the server saying it wants to move to position x, y, z. The server should be validating that this move is possible (it doesn't seem to be doing that though since these people can apparently teleport around the map) and then move them server side.

So removing add-ons, implementing counter-cheat programs. None of that crap matters. Any solution to botting needs to come on the server-side only.

DanteYoda · May 2014

This is why addons and mmo's do not work...

Catsocks · May 2014

DanteYoda wrote: »

This is why addons and mmo's do not work...

I'm going to assume you didn't read the thread to come up with this especially insightful nugget.

WhiteQueen · May 2014

DanteYoda wrote: »

This is why addons and mmo's do not work...

Bless you and your precious little soul.

reggielee · May 2014

I just dont get the cheat mentality, I paid alot for this game and will have to continue paying in order to keep it going. Taking the casual approach ie questing, learning crafting and full exploration before moving on.. I still figure I will have completed all the current quests in a few months and be at vet level.

All the things gold can buy will have been earned, like fast mounts and bank space. Crafting will have yielded the upgrade parts too, maybe not as many as needed...but my point is.... whats all the blimey rush? People are boasting they have millions in gold but again.. what for? I am deliberately going slower now as I don't want reach that end zone too early.

but anyways, I digress. My initial questions were answered by some really helpful intelligent people.

Eris · May 2014

Really, you don't need the Addon API to bot. Most botting programs intercept the information being fed to the game client and send back whatever response the game client would have sent. It allows for fairly complex scripts to be written do perform a wide range of tasks.

The Addon API might make it easier for the bot software to interpret some of the information it is getting, but realistically, they would have eventually programmed something similar anyways so it's not that big a deal.

For those who don't know and think that botting is new, there were script bots back in the 80s. One of the early ones I can think of was a BBS door game called Tradewars where people would create scripts to run back and forth from world to world trading optimal amounts of money. making the most efficient use of their limited number of turns. I'm sure there were earlier bots, but that sticks in my mind. Back then it was just called scripting.

cubansyrusb16_ESO · May 2014

Sakiri wrote: »

vendettaxxiii wrote: »

Vyshan wrote: »

vendettaxxiii wrote: »

Catsocks wrote: »

7788b14_ESO wrote: »

Dante_Marquis wrote: »

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

Here is the thing , addons do not matter , to YOU , i use TONS of them , and honestly , i would have gold sellers in this game for years , than to have them remove the addons.

If you need Add ons then stop playing MMOs you are no gamer....My wife and I are old school we don't need any mod to help us play and never well..by the Goddess the Kids these days. You mean to tell me that you need an add on to hold your hand and play the game for you?? because that is what you are doing.

LOL, add-ons have been around since MMO's came out. I've used them since SWG.

Yeah I used addons in EQ and WoW: TBC/WoTLK. "Old School gamer" dude is hilarious.

The only add-on that should be allowed is the one that shows you your battle stats. Other than that, Dante's right. What's with the add-ons for locating skyshards and crafting materials? That's highly ridiculous and is completely hand holding for a game that already holds your hand pretty much all the way through.

If I didn't have an AddOn for skyshards, crafting materials, books, and treasure maps, do you know what it means? It means I just have to alt-tab out to www.esohead.com to get the same information.

The hand-holding will exist so long as people want it to.
Zenimax can't stop that, AddOn API or not.

Lawl. That's hilarious. If you have to use a website, then you are no MMO player. Open your journal in game. They give clues to the skyshards--Most of which you will find just running around questing. Same thing for crafting materials. Run around and actually look around you, you will find everything you need, I promise.

@Striken7 -- Mature, really showing your age there. Refer to the statement above.

vendettaxxiii wrote: »

Vyshan wrote: »

vendettaxxiii wrote: »

Catsocks wrote: »

7788b14_ESO wrote: »

Dante_Marquis wrote: »

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

Here is the thing , addons do not matter , to YOU , i use TONS of them , and honestly , i would have gold sellers in this game for years , than to have them remove the addons.

If you need Add ons then stop playing MMOs you are no gamer....My wife and I are old school we don't need any mod to help us play and never well..by the Goddess the Kids these days. You mean to tell me that you need an add on to hold your hand and play the game for you?? because that is what you are doing.

LOL, add-ons have been around since MMO's came out. I've used them since SWG.

Yeah I used addons in EQ and WoW: TBC/WoTLK. "Old School gamer" dude is hilarious.

The only add-on that should be allowed is the one that shows you your battle stats. Other than that, Dante's right. What's with the add-ons for locating skyshards and crafting materials? That's highly ridiculous and is completely hand holding for a game that already holds your hand pretty much all the way through.

If I didn't have an AddOn for skyshards, crafting materials, books, and treasure maps, do you know what it means? It means I just have to alt-tab out to www.esohead.com to get the same information.

The hand-holding will exist so long as people want it to.
Zenimax can't stop that, AddOn API or not.

Lawl. That's hilarious. If you have to use a website, then you are no MMO player. Open your journal in game. They give clues to the skyshards--Most of which you will find just running around questing. Same thing for crafting materials. Run around and actually look around you, you will find everything you need, I promise.

@Striken7 -- Mature, really showing your age there. Refer to the statement above.

In my day we drew maps and kept all this crap in a binder on our desks. Quest journal? Map in game? Whats that?

Oh the days of having to go out and buy more paper before continuing to play.

cosmogoblin · May 2014

stefaan.de.wasch1b16_ESO wrote: »

But to be honest, I find your "The Kids these days" Offensive... I'm 46 and I don't particulary like being called a kid by an 'Old School' gamer that probably doesn't even remember Arena...

Be fair. Arena sold 3000 copies on its first run. I don't doubt that you played it back in 1994, but I'm finding it really funny how half the ESO players reckon they did as well!

Mind you, it's refreshing compared with the people who say "I've played all three Elder Scrolls games"...

cosmogoblin · May 2014

Vyshan wrote: »

This isn't anything new. Bots have existed since MMORPG became a genre.

Long before that. MUDs have had bots since the late 70s (and that's much easier to code for, since the whole thing is ASCII).

Graphically, back in Quake time, you had rocket jumping: you aim downwards, jump and fire a rocket at the same time, and you move upward in proportion to the amount of rocket damage you took. Somebody created a script that would introduce lag into your net code, so that the server would think all six of your rockets went off at once - and you could jump six times as high as you were supposed to.

Of course, these were easier to fix. Especially in a MUD with a hundred players, it's very obvious who's botting.

ryanbezemerb16_ESO · May 2014

cosmogoblin wrote: »

stefaan.de.wasch1b16_ESO wrote: »

But to be honest, I find your "The Kids these days" Offensive... I'm 46 and I don't particulary like being called a kid by an 'Old School' gamer that probably doesn't even remember Arena...

Be fair. Arena sold 3000 copies on its first run. I don't doubt that you played it back in 1994, but I'm finding it really funny how half the ESO players reckon they did as well!

Mind you, it's refreshing compared with the people who say "I've played all three Elder Scrolls games"...

Ah, you forget that you could for a time (Not sure if it is still there) Download Arena and play it in a DOSbox. So half the population could have played it. I very much doubt it, but that is besides the point :P

Anyhow, Linux systems, evil incarnate, you know?

Blackwolfe5 · May 2014

I never played much of Arena. Had a.. less than legal.. copy back in the day. Never could figure out how to travel from town to town and I tried to walk on foot and got lost.

Daggerfall however, how I.. did not love to get lost in those random dungeons that all looked rather alike to look for some ingedient that was hardly even noticeable and could be in a corner in some room somewhere :P Or using OP fireball spells that I could cast at my feet and get healed by :P Climbing walls.. so much fun!

Drachenmutter · May 2014

Devils are talking here! You never got the point, my child!

Jade1986 · May 2014

This is still going?

Addons are not the problem.

3rd party programs / clients are the problem

If people wanna use add ons , se la vi, everyone has their preferences.

Albeit, more security imo is always good.

AlliN · May 2014

Again, for like 10th time...

ADDONS in that game can't make callouts to the game API requiring a model movement. Addon can't make character to move, and as you can check with ease yourself, there are no addons that move a character.

Becasue it's impossible for them.

HOWEVER

There might be (and probably is) a bug, loophole, backdoor or any other non-intended method that was found by botters to exploit, and that's why we have bots underground and teleporting. But if it is a result of a bug, it's not addon existance fault, but poor security of the system, and not removing exploitable callouts.

Saying that addons are the reason of botting, and wanting it removed - is like saying we should ban usage of cars, becasue drunk drivers casue accidents.