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There is a way to make a fun PVP and equal in ESO independent from the other modes.
Redguards_Revenge
✭✭✭✭
This is a rough draft and I haven't put in any thought into it. The only way to sell it is to lump it into a new expansion. TBH, this may be in other games already and I don't know.
You may have seen this type of PVP style in a FPS, or something. Also maybe from that card game in high isle. Let's have say, a BGs area of pvp zone. In this new pvp space, all your sets are removed, All your skills are removed, All racials removed. I want to put the base mechanics into the forefront. All you can do at this point is light attack, heavy attack, sprint, break free, roll dodge, jump and block. Everybody has the same health, stamina and magica.
Now here's the part I am trying to work out. Kind of like in some FPS, the skills would be scattered around the map. Should I start people with simple pool of skills at the beginning that are replaced with the upgraded skill around the map, or should they all start empty and be filled with the skills throughout the map?
All the skills do the same thing, deal the same damage from person to person.
All skills use a set % of stamina or magica.
All skills hit hard, but in a sense to encourage the use of the base mechanics. Roll dodge, break free, sprint, block, jump, etc.
I want to remove the healing skill. and force it to be picked up from a random spawn around the map.
This is nothing but pure deathmatch. In a sense it would have added the elements of the other BGs because instead of flags spawning it's resources to heal and stronger skills to kill with.
I'll come back in 3 months with a better fleshed out idea. I want to hear you guys rip it apart first.
You may have seen this type of PVP style in a FPS, or something. Also maybe from that card game in high isle. Let's have say, a BGs area of pvp zone. In this new pvp space, all your sets are removed, All your skills are removed, All racials removed. I want to put the base mechanics into the forefront. All you can do at this point is light attack, heavy attack, sprint, break free, roll dodge, jump and block. Everybody has the same health, stamina and magica.
Now here's the part I am trying to work out. Kind of like in some FPS, the skills would be scattered around the map. Should I start people with simple pool of skills at the beginning that are replaced with the upgraded skill around the map, or should they all start empty and be filled with the skills throughout the map?
All the skills do the same thing, deal the same damage from person to person.
All skills use a set % of stamina or magica.
All skills hit hard, but in a sense to encourage the use of the base mechanics. Roll dodge, break free, sprint, block, jump, etc.
I want to remove the healing skill. and force it to be picked up from a random spawn around the map.
This is nothing but pure deathmatch. In a sense it would have added the elements of the other BGs because instead of flags spawning it's resources to heal and stronger skills to kill with.
I'll come back in 3 months with a better fleshed out idea. I want to hear you guys rip it apart first.
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Amottica✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Zenimax already has a combat system. They should not, and likely would not spend time building a secondary combat system to create a different game within this game.
Great idea for a different game such as a battle royale, but not for ESO.
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Redguards_Revenge✭✭✭✭Zenimax already has a combat system. They should not, and likely would not spend time building a secondary combat system to create a different game within this game.
Great idea for a different game such as a battle royale, but not for ESO.
It uses the system they already have though. Remember when we unlock a skill and it places into our bar automatically? Some of the mechanics are already in the game. Or how in vMA there are temporary buffs that we can run to.1 -
Freelancer_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭You might take a look at Shadow Arena and players reaction to it while it was implemented in Black Desert Online.
It does a portion of what you are talking about albeit in a different game.0 -
TaSheen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I'm sure there are people who would love to see battle royale come to ESO. I'm not one of them as I don't pvp at all. And I'm not thinking it really "fits" ESO very well. But if it gets added, fine with me - I certainly can ignore it just as I ignore anything else in the game that's not fun for me.______________________________________________________
"But even in books, the heroes make mistakes, and there isn't always a happy ending." Mercedes Lackey, Into the West
PC NA, PC EU (non steam)- four accounts, many alts....1 -
Redguards_Revenge✭✭✭✭chessalavakia_ESO wrote: »You might take a look at Shadow Arena and players reaction to it while it was implemented in Black Desert Online.
It does a portion of what you are talking about albeit in a different game.
I see now why ZoS doesn't want to do it. The sets paradigm borrowed from WoW is too entrenched in the minds of the gamers who play ESO. I thought by adding a new portion independent from the other ones would be the answer, however, they are not willing to depart with their sets. It's the most profitable for ZoS and the most enjoyable for their players. Consider the idea dead.
The sad part is, that it didn't start with that paradigm. It was trying to be it's own thing. They strayed away from their core mechanics of the game. I fail to see sometimes the difference between a point and click game and eso.Edited by Redguards_Revenge on June 8, 2022 1:13PM0 -
GrizzlyTank✭✭✭It's impossible to balance pve and pve simultaneously. And most often fun features gets gutted solely because of pvp balance.1 -
Redguards_Revenge✭✭✭✭I'm sure there are people who would love to see battle royale come to ESO. I'm not one of them as I don't pvp at all. And I'm not thinking it really "fits" ESO very well. But if it gets added, fine with me - I certainly can ignore it just as I ignore anything else in the game that's not fun for me.
What would you like to see for pve? I am wondering why a PVE player clicked a PVP thread. Maybe you want something. To me, I read this and it says "I don't want change in my PVP systems already here" even though you claim to be a PVE player. This is why I ask for clarification. I don't like my predetermined thoughts to paint someone.Edited by Redguards_Revenge on June 8, 2022 1:16PM0 -
Redguards_Revenge✭✭✭✭GrizzlyTank wrote: »It's impossible to balance pve and pve simultaneously. And most often fun features gets gutted solely because of pvp balance.
o_0 but what does my suggestion of transporting people into a location independent from all PVP and PVE have to do with the balance of the game? There are no skills in this realm...there are no sets in this realm...just the base mechanics.1 -
TaSheen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Because someday someone "might" come up with an idea for pvp that I think I could enjoy at least some of the time. So far it hasn't happened, but I still read idea threads. And I replied to this one because I just can't see a battle royale fitting ESO very well.Edited by TaSheen on June 8, 2022 1:19PM______________________________________________________
"But even in books, the heroes make mistakes, and there isn't always a happy ending." Mercedes Lackey, Into the West
PC NA, PC EU (non steam)- four accounts, many alts....0 -
Redguards_Revenge✭✭✭✭Because someday someone "might" come up with an idea for pvp that I think I could enjoy at least some of the time. So far it hasn't happened, but I still read idea threads.
What might you enjoy in pvp? I mean we need to know what you enjoy first before thinking about something to make. Hoping someone creates something you'll like that you may not even know what that is a hard ask. It's why games nowadays release with a base and try to let the community build it up into what they want it to be. Instead of in the past when they have a vision and it might make or break their company for sticking to it.
Fun new features are hard to make when everybody else has similar features.
I enjoy getting my butt handed to me knowing the other person used the same exact things around the map to get me. It's always fun to see what they do. I don't enjoy someone buying the new chapter and beating me with the sets in it.Edited by Redguards_Revenge on June 8, 2022 1:22PM0 -
TaSheen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I don't know what I would enjoy. I've tried just about everything I have run across in years of MMOs, but it's all pretty un-fun for me - I'm older, I don't like really fast combat styles. I did okay in pvp in WoW, but that was quite a while ago, and mostly due to a good guild of RL friends.
So I just read others' ideas, to see if maybe someone will come up with a new thing that seems like I might enjoy it.
As it happens, I'm not much interested in the "set situation" in this game either. I tend to use mostly crafted stuff.______________________________________________________
"But even in books, the heroes make mistakes, and there isn't always a happy ending." Mercedes Lackey, Into the West
PC NA, PC EU (non steam)- four accounts, many alts....0 -
Redguards_Revenge✭✭✭✭I don't know what I would enjoy. I've tried just about everything I have run across in years of MMOs, but it's all pretty un-fun for me - I'm older, I don't like really fast combat styles. I did okay in pvp in WoW, but that was quite a while ago, and mostly due to a good guild of RL friends.
So I just read others' ideas, to see if maybe someone will come up with a new thing that seems like I might enjoy it.
As it happens, I'm not much interested in the "set situation" in this game either. I tend to use mostly crafted stuff.
I understand, I am pretty old too. 20 years of playing MMOs. They all come down to the same thing.
Well, truth be told, what I think to be fun and new has been already done somewhere. For example making our own BG maps using the similar system from the housing aspect of the game. Some one said fortnight does that. I've never played the game lol.
This would essentially make the area you build fast paced or slow paced. If it's an open field type of location, obviously fast paced. However, if we put a crap load of cover, buildings, choke points, etc. We can set up traps and lure people into them. Roll dodge behind something, etc.
Some people don't even have to go into pvp, just build the pvp levels. Maybe spectate the match and see how people are using it. Of course they have to have rotating spawn points to stop people from putting all resources into one place. Also the resources must be some set distance away from each other.
Take your time though, finding out what you want exactly is a part of life. Sometimes, I get something I wanted and realize I didn't want it at all lol. It's why I like listening to feedback from others.0 -
NordSwordnBoard✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Maybe roll it into some kind of training module. Get a group of friends who want to practice PvP together. I think building on the ideas of custom duels out there could encompass a duel scenario like you suggest, OP. Instanced, customizable, and more than just the 1v1 duels we have now. I would actually want custom or player hosted set ups than a random finder like we already have for BGs.Fear is the Mindkiller0 -
Gundug✭✭✭✭✭It’s a little weird to post a fairly long statement while prefacing it saying “I haven’t put any thought into this”. I am familiar with this game mode, considering I first played it in the nearly three-decades old era of Doom, Unreal Tournament and Quake. The only real issue I see with ZOS finding a reason to implement something like this is it sells nothing. No sets and no skill lines. I don’t believe they could make their investment back selling the maps, since the community that would be interested in them appears small, so they would need to be base game to see any play at all. Where is their financial incentive in all this?1
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Mascen✭✭✭✭There is an alternative per se. I've taken to calling it "competive PVE". I don't know how familiar you are with other games but to cite an example of this concept the sci-fi MMO shooter Destiny 2 has this mode called Gambit. Two teams of 4 players kill enemies to collect motes and deposit them in a receptacle. When the receptacle reaches 100 mote units a boss unit is summoned. First team to slay the boss wins. Meanwhile both teams can send tougher enemy units to hamper their opponents or even invade into their instance to directly kill them occasionally.
Im thinking ZOS could implement something similar in Battlegrounds. It's not quite PVE but not entirely PVP either, it's in between.0 -
Kaelthorn_Nightbloom✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭This sounds incredibly boring. Creating my own builds is part of what makes ESO PvP fun. If I can't decide what skills to use then my interest drops off significantly. I'd rather go play an FPS.
Edited by Kaelthorn_Nightbloom on June 8, 2022 5:47PMPC NA0 -
Amottica✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭NordSwordnBoard wrote: »Maybe roll it into some kind of training module. Get a group of friends who want to practice PvP together. I think building on the ideas of custom duels out there could encompass a duel scenario like you suggest, OP. Instanced, customizable, and more than just the 1v1 duels we have now. I would actually want custom or player hosted set ups than a random finder like we already have for BGs.
It should not be part of any module in ESO. ESO is not a battle royale game. Zenimax should not build and maintain a second combat system that has nothing to do with the game. People who want to play battle royale have plenty of options and ESO is not and should never be one of them as it just does not fit with the game.
Even Rich has commented on the importance of developers knowing their game and being true to it and that alone says Battle Royale will not be coming to ESO. Square peg in round hole situation.0 -
KitsuneShoujo✭✭✭There is, but it would require too much work on Zenimax' part. The only game I ever played where the pvp was fun and enjoyable was Warhammer Online. The pvp zones were set in the world and you could enter and leave as you wanted with no penalty for leaving. The zones were pretty big too. It was a blast. They had zerg trains too, and it was still fun.0 -
Amottica✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Another solid point to why Zenimax should not go this route. They would have to find a different way to monetize this suggestion as most of the players it might bring to ESO are less likely to be interested in playing the rest of the game because that would require some actual effort and time put into the game.
As I have already pointed out, Battle Royale does not fit well with ESO and this point explains how it is not a good business decision. That along with having to spend time creating and maintaining a second combat system that is irrelevant to each other is enough to scuttle it.
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Redguards_Revenge✭✭✭✭Another solid point to why Zenimax should not go this route. They would have to find a different way to monetize this suggestion as most of the players it might bring to ESO are less likely to be interested in playing the rest of the game because that would require some actual effort and time put into the game.
As I have already pointed out, Battle Royale does not fit well with ESO and this point explains how it is not a good business decision. That along with having to spend time creating and maintaining a second combat system that is irrelevant to each other is enough to scuttle it.
I disagree with you. The game will die if the players aren't in control of combat and level design of said combat locations. Devs can only do so much. The set in new chapter paradigm will die in about 3-5 years. The only people left will be the whales and the people who sunk in an extreme amount of time into the game and can't move on. The game will be still bringing in decent amount of money as they have a small centralized base they can cater the game to with a great amount of %. Giving them almost exactly what they want. However, new players will be sparse. The juggling act starts when newer players reaching end game starts to get lower than older players leaving the game.
This happens for many reasons
#1 RNG. True RNG kills MMOs...it seems like a great idea, but when you don't give players alternative ways to collect points and gain the item they want, it becomes a huge barrier to newer players because nobody is running the dungeons for those sets.
#2 Market Prices. They go higher and higher because there are few people farming for materials and going into dungeons/overworld. They are centralized mostly to the newest locations. Whales and established players asking for crazy amounts of gold because none of them want to go out and farm those mats. The people who start to hurt are the newer players and the mid players.
#3 Not having the gear. Nobody is in the lower dungeons so they take a longer time to gear up with the newer stuff. They will be pushed away from the difficult stuff as they don't meet the preset requirements.
#4 Death of PVP. No gear, no gold, no competition to the established people. They'll realize no matter how much they try, they'll be fodder to those who are well established or a whale.
I've seen it in many MMOs this pattern unfortunately holds true with this game. Like I said for some time they'll still bring in the money from their centralized base.
There IS a way to monetize this. I thought of it but I won't place it here. Maybe I'll write the fleshed out version in 3 months. Maybe I'll start a 2D game project and test out the idea.
There was a time when proc sets barely existed in ESO. Then they came down like a valkn skoria lagging out the whole game while it dropped. They decided to toss out their uniquness and go with what others were doing. So far we are all playing variations of yesterdays MMO....what will be the new one?
#1 thing I can tell you is that the core mechanics must always be above any set in the game. That's how one builds an ever lasting game.
#2 sacrifice some profits for player enjoyment. Instead of trying to pinch out every single cent when the media is hot.
#3 If it's going downhill or bad PR, be honest with your players. If they enjoy the game they'll help you fight to keep it alive.
#4 customers aren't statistics to be milked. I love me some good statistics and predictions. However, I'd love to be opened with what I know about the customer about what their data tells our marketing team.
It may have to be from a brand new developer. Companies grow so big, and take on investors/shareholders that they lose their freedom to be expressive.1 -
EdmondDontes✭✭✭✭✭
✭Please stop suggesting changes to the way PvP works in ESO. The combat system in ESO is top notch....but the server and code support is not. The problem is not how it works, it's that it doesn't work far too often. PvP just needs to have the server and coding support it deserves.2 -
Wolfpaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭EdmondDontes wrote: »Please stop suggesting changes to the way PvP works in ESO. The combat system in ESO is top notch....but the server and code support is not. The problem is not how it works, it's that it doesn't work far too often. PvP just needs to have the server and coding support it deserves.
This 100%0 -
Amottica✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Redguards_Revenge wrote: »Another solid point to why Zenimax should not go this route. They would have to find a different way to monetize this suggestion as most of the players it might bring to ESO are less likely to be interested in playing the rest of the game because that would require some actual effort and time put into the game.
As I have already pointed out, Battle Royale does not fit well with ESO and this point explains how it is not a good business decision. That along with having to spend time creating and maintaining a second combat system that is irrelevant to each other is enough to scuttle it.
I disagree with you. The game will die if the players aren't in control of combat and level design of said combat locations. Devs can only do so much.The set in new chapter paradigm will die in about 3-5 years. The only people left will be the whales and the people who sunk in an extreme amount of time into the game and can't move on. The game will be still bringing in decent amount of money as they have a small centralized base they can cater the game to with a great amount of %. Giving them almost exactly what they want. However, new players will be sparse. The juggling act starts when newer players reaching end game starts to get lower than older players leaving the game.
This happens for many reasons
#1 RNG. True RNG kills MMOs...it seems like a great idea, but when you don't give players alternative ways to collect points and gain the item they want, it becomes a huge barrier to newer players because nobody is running the dungeons for those sets.
#2 Market Prices. They go higher and higher because there are few people farming for materials and going into dungeons/overworld. They are centralized mostly to the newest locations. Whales and established players asking for crazy amounts of gold because none of them want to go out and farm those mats. The people who start to hurt are the newer players and the mid players.
#3 Not having the gear. Nobody is in the lower dungeons so they take a longer time to gear up with the newer stuff. They will be pushed away from the difficult stuff as they don't meet the preset requirements.
#4 Death of PVP. No gear, no gold, no competition to the established people. They'll realize no matter how much they try, they'll be fodder to those who are well established or a whale.
I've seen it in many MMOs this pattern unfortunately holds true with this game. Like I said for some time they'll still bring in the money from their centralized base.
There IS a way to monetize this. I thought of it but I won't place it here. Maybe I'll write the fleshed out version in 3 months. Maybe I'll start a 2D game project and test out the idea.
There was a time when proc sets barely existed in ESO. Then they came down like a valkn skoria lagging out the whole game while it dropped. They decided to toss out their uniquness and go with what others were doing. So far we are all playing variations of yesterdays MMO....what will be the new one?
#1 thing I can tell you is that the core mechanics must always be above any set in the game. That's how one builds an ever lasting game.
#2 sacrifice some profits for player enjoyment. Instead of trying to pinch out every single cent when the media is hot.
#3 If it's going downhill or bad PR, be honest with your players. If they enjoy the game they'll help you fight to keep it alive.
#4 customers aren't statistics to be milked. I love me some good statistics and predictions. However, I'd love to be opened with what I know about the customer about what their data tells our marketing team.
It may have to be from a brand new developer. Companies grow so big, and take on investors/shareholders that they lose their freedom to be expressive.
Your last sentence seems to bring your comment into agreement with mine.
A TES BR may make sense as a separate product, hence a different developer team, but it does not make good business sense to add to ESO as the monetization model for BR is very different than what we have here.
Thanks.
As for the rest, yes, developers should listen to feedback about combat, but that is not what this thread is about. OP is not suggesting making changes to combat but designing a completely new combat system for something else that does not fit into ESO and should be handled by a different developer team if Zenimax/MS felt it was a good idea to pursue.
Even then, it is likely that at some Zenimax meeting a BR game for one of the IPs has been brought up. It is somewhat of an obvious topic to consider for such a gaming company.
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