The Gold Road Chapter – which includes the Scribing system – and Update 42 is now available to test on the PTS! You can read the latest patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/656454/
Maintenance for the week of April 29:
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – April 29
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – April 29
DEAR GOLD SELLERS AND GOLD BUYERS
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Lephrel✭✭✭✭✭I used to oppose gold selling. I don't anymore and here's why.
When ZOS legalised crown selling, they essentially said: "We don't care about the detriments of gold selling as long as it's us making the profit."
So whether or not someone buys gold by paying ZOS or by paying someone who actually plays the game (or lets his bots play)...it really doesn't matter to me.
Point is, just let people do their stuff.Edited by Lephrel on June 2, 2022 12:56PM6 -
Vaoh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I used to oppose gold selling. I don't anymore and here's why.
When ZOS legalised crown selling, they essentially said: "We don't care about the detriments of gold selling as long as it's us making the profit."
So whether or not someone buys gold by paying ZOS or by paying someone who actually plays the game (or lets his bots play)...it really doesn't matter to me.
Point is, just let people do their stuff.
Just to give an example on my server since some people will be confused by this whole process:
• Exchange Rate: 100 gold = 1 Crown
1. Player purchases the 21000 crowns pack for $149.99.
2. Player sells those crowns for 2,100,000 gold, aka you gift items and are sent gold in return.
3. Player uses this gold to purchase any gold materials, gear, carries, etc.
This is extremely common and promoted by ZOS.
Is it P2W? Guess that’s up to each person to decide for themselves.
You can have anything in the game by paying real money including any trial gear or even Planesbreaker.Edited by Vaoh on June 2, 2022 4:46PM3 -
Mr_Stach✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭WoW has this same problem.
Blizzard doesn't care that people are buying Gold, they just want to be the Gold Seller. Zos is probably in the same boat.Altoholic, Frost Warden Sympathizer and Main
Glacial Guardian - Main - Frost Warden Zealot
The Frost Man Cometh - PC Frost Backup1 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭A couple notes for context:
1. This isn't talking about the Crown Gifts for Gold trade, which is usually legitimate. We're talking players who got their gold via botting and/or duplication exploits, amd then sell it for real money to other players. Rather than risk the large gold transfer getting flagged by the Mail system, the buyer can list an item at a very high price to do the gold transfer.
2. When ZOS cleans up gold from a duplication exploit, they can track the transactions. This has resulted in gold being taken from the sellers who received the duplicated gold, even unknowingly.
3. ZOS can also claw back duplicated gold from Guild Banks, or zero out the guild balance if they spent it already. So as an officer, you really don't want that 3.5% Guild tax when you think the transaction isn't legitimate.
Therefore, there's a pretty serious risk for Guild Leaders when they realize that a player is making a suspicious transaction. A big red flag is selling items for way over their market value. An example where, even accounting for inflation, no one is spending 200k gold for a Fishy Stick Recipe: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/513228/pc-eu-theres-something-fishy-in-those-sticks-maybe-gold-selling#latest
If you want an older example of this, here's one where ZOS investigated and removed the offending accounts: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/505248/zos-1-billion-gold-laundering-it-was-now-1-25-billion-please-prioritize-it/p1
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6507796/#Comment_6507796Edited by VaranisArano on June 2, 2022 5:20PM1 -
Mythgard1967✭✭✭✭✭I find this to be an interesting discussion and I think the point made by @Lephrel is mostly valid.
I say mostly because....I don't know that I think ZOS "legalized" crown selling. They have just de-criminalized it. There is a difference. At any point; they can change their minds and choose to not allow crown for gold sales. They have just chosen to not police it (because they ultimately benefit from it).....but they have the option to police it and shut it down if they feel like it harms the game in ways that will cost them MORE money than what they gain from this path.
I actually dislike that. It is ambiguous. I dont have much of an issue with gold selling or buying so much as I have an issue with condoning it vs supporting it. I think the thought is...people who really want to do this will do it and they have a semi legit way to do it and the buyers/sellers accept the risk of being scammed. Bit how do you balance an economy around an exchange rate you cant control??
I think I might feel (ya...I havent given this a ton of thought really).....that if you are going to allow it...then allow it. Other games (GW2 and Neverwinter come to mind) have models built in for dollars to store currency to game currency back to store currency all brokered through the game (just not back to real dollars). GW2 actually does it better than Neverwinter....neverwinter is definitely p2w and gw2 is pay to be pretty with pay for convenience aspects.
Arenanet makes money; players aren't at risk for being scammed and Arenanet can manage the conversion rate (allowing them to manage how much game currency floods into the game).
I dont think I have an opinion on whether or not ESO should be "no gold selling" or "truly supported gold selling"; but, I do think that having grey area gold selling is somewhat shady.0 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Mythgard1967 wrote: »I find this to be an interesting discussion and I think the point made by @Lephrel is mostly valid.
I say mostly because....I don't know that I think ZOS "legalized" crown selling. They have just de-criminalized it. There is a difference. At any point; they can change their minds and choose to not allow crown for gold sales. They have just chosen to not police it (because they ultimately benefit from it).....but they have the option to police it and shut it down if they feel like it harms the game in ways that will cost them MORE money than what they gain from this path.
I actually dislike that. It is ambiguous. I dont have much of an issue with gold selling or buying so much as I have an issue with condoning it vs supporting it. I think the thought is...people who really want to do this will do it and they have a semi legit way to do it and the buyers/sellers accept the risk of being scammed. Bit how do you balance an economy around an exchange rate you cant control??
I think I might feel (ya...I havent given this a ton of thought really).....that if you are going to allow it...then allow it. Other games (GW2 and Neverwinter come to mind) have models built in for dollars to store currency to game currency back to store currency all brokered through the game (just not back to real dollars). GW2 actually does it better than Neverwinter....neverwinter is definitely p2w and gw2 is pay to be pretty with pay for convenience aspects.
Arenanet makes money; players aren't at risk for being scammed and Arenanet can manage the conversion rate (allowing them to manage how much game currency floods into the game).
I dont think I have an opinion on whether or not ESO should be "no gold selling" or "truly supported gold selling"; but, I do think that having grey area gold selling is somewhat shady.
It's not that gray of an area.
Goldselling for real money is not allowed.
Trading Crowns themselves for Gold is not possible.
Trading Crown Gifts in exchange for Gold and other in-game items is allowed. ZOS has said so clearly.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5205829/#Comment_5205829
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5208334/#Comment_5208334To clarify, trading an in-game item for other in-game items is allowed; trading in-game items for real-world money or other out-of-game items is strictly prohibited.A Crown Store item is considered an in-game item.1 -
Saucy_Jack✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Well, like I said, if people want to make their own shady deals in their own shady guilds on their own shady traders, that's one thing. And as far as my personal opinion goes, they're free to do that, at least until ZOS bans them for blatantly violating the TOS.
But what I DON'T stand for is shady people using our guild as a platform for their shadiness. Not only does it put the guild in a dubious position and give us a shady reputation by proxy, but it's also skewing the MM data for everyone in our guild, and for a trading guild in particular, having up-to-date, accurate MM data is fairly critical.
If someone's purposely skewing it due to unethical practices, not only are they actively harming the legitimate trading of everyone else in the guild, but they're also demonstrating that they couldn't care less about whether or not they're hurting other members. They view the guild as a means to a shady end and literally nothing else; they couldn't care less about actually being a part of the guild community itself.
As a GM, my priority is to look out for our guild members. So if anyone joins the guild just to use it as a platform to actively harm other members, they can a) eat a bag of...something that rhymes with clicks, and b) get out. They can choose the order in which those happen.ALL HAIL SNUGGLORR THE MAGNIFICENT, KING OF THE RNG AND NIRN'S ONE TRUE GOD! Also, become a Scrub-scriber! SJ Scrubs: Playing games badly to make you feel better about yourself.5 -
karthrag_inak✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭biovitalb16_ESO wrote: »karthrag_inak wrote: »How does one know that one has a gold-seller in one's trading guild? This one is GM of a trading guild and now khajiit has concerns.
A super easy way to see is when you look at MM/ATT sales data and you see something like,.
Basic white weapon with no trait - 5,000,000 gold - Sold 1 day ago
Obviously a 40g vendor trash item shouldn't be selling on your trader for 5M
This would indicate gold buyer, yes? What would indicate a gold seller in one's guild?Edited by karthrag_inak on June 3, 2022 1:49AMPC-NA : 19 Khajiit and 1 Fishy-cat with fluffy delusions0 -
TaSheen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭karthrag_inak wrote: »biovitalb16_ESO wrote: »karthrag_inak wrote: »How does one know that one has a gold-seller in one's trading guild? This one is GM of a trading guild and now khajiit has concerns.
A super easy way to see is when you look at MM/ATT sales data and you see something like,.
Basic white weapon with no trait - 5,000,000 gold - Sold 1 day ago
Obviously a 40g vendor trash item shouldn't be selling on your trader for 5M
This would indicate gold buyer, yes? What would indicate a gold seller in one's guild?
The person who listed that piece of white trash for that much gold?
______________________________________________________
But even in books, the heroes make mistakes, and there isn't always a happy ending.
PC NA, PC EU (non steam)- three accounts, many alts....0 -
karthrag_inak✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭karthrag_inak wrote: »biovitalb16_ESO wrote: »karthrag_inak wrote: »How does one know that one has a gold-seller in one's trading guild? This one is GM of a trading guild and now khajiit has concerns.
A super easy way to see is when you look at MM/ATT sales data and you see something like,.
Basic white weapon with no trait - 5,000,000 gold - Sold 1 day ago
Obviously a 40g vendor trash item shouldn't be selling on your trader for 5M
This would indicate gold buyer, yes? What would indicate a gold seller in one's guild?
The person who listed that piece of white trash for that much gold?
Again, that would seem to indicate a gold buyer - they are getting the ridiculous amount of gold for the worthless item.
It seems there is no easy way to distinguish a gold seller ahead of time - that was the point of this one's original question.
PC-NA : 19 Khajiit and 1 Fishy-cat with fluffy delusions0 -
kevkj✭✭✭✭biovitalb16_ESO wrote: »karthrag_inak wrote: »How does one know that one has a gold-seller in one's trading guild? This one is GM of a trading guild and now khajiit has concerns.
A super easy way to see is when you look at MM/ATT sales data and you see something like,.
Basic white weapon with no trait - 5,000,000 gold - Sold 1 day ago
Obviously a 40g vendor trash item shouldn't be selling on your trader for 5M
Are you saying those nightwood staves aren't worth 70k gold??? Kidding, obviously.0 -
Jem_Kindheart✭✭✭✭ectoplasmicninja wrote: »Ah, is this why I sometimes see a random item listed for crazy millions of gold? I've been assuming whoever listed those things was hitting the skooma bubbler, but that would make more sense.
Funny related story, couple years ago I was leveling a new character's Provisioning, so was going through Mournhold buying all the guild store Potatoes. Was kinda on mental autopilot, ya know, just half paying attention and mashing buttons.
Almost accidently bought someone's 2 Mil single Potato lololol. Checked on it every few days or when I remembered to, it was there for a couple weeks at least till I stopped checking haha.
Couldn't say if it was just someone being funny, hoping for an idiot to buy it (like me almost) or gold laundering, but it has mystified me ever since.Longtimer since beta, the usual. 26 CP toons. ~1700cp on main account, 1000cp on 2nd account. Endgame-ish lol. Most Vets / some HM's cleared.1 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭karthrag_inak wrote: »karthrag_inak wrote: »biovitalb16_ESO wrote: »karthrag_inak wrote: »How does one know that one has a gold-seller in one's trading guild? This one is GM of a trading guild and now khajiit has concerns.
A super easy way to see is when you look at MM/ATT sales data and you see something like,.
Basic white weapon with no trait - 5,000,000 gold - Sold 1 day ago
Obviously a 40g vendor trash item shouldn't be selling on your trader for 5M
This would indicate gold buyer, yes? What would indicate a gold seller in one's guild?
The person who listed that piece of white trash for that much gold?
Again, that would seem to indicate a gold buyer - they are getting the ridiculous amount of gold for the worthless item.
It seems there is no easy way to distinguish a gold seller ahead of time - that was the point of this one's original question.
IIRC, the guild history shows both the Buyer and the Seller.
And in any case, if ZOS deems something suspicious about the Gold Buyer who listed the item, it's trivially easy for them to figure out the other end of the transaction.2 -
karthrag_inak✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »
IIRC, the guild history shows both the Buyer and the Seller.
And in any case, if ZOS deems something suspicious about the Gold Buyer who listed the item, it's trivially easy for them to figure out the other end of the transaction.
Excellent point. There's no way to ban a potential buyer from using a merchant, is there? Not saying there should be, just curious.PC-NA : 19 Khajiit and 1 Fishy-cat with fluffy delusions0 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭karthrag_inak wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »
IIRC, the guild history shows both the Buyer and the Seller.
And in any case, if ZOS deems something suspicious about the Gold Buyer who listed the item, it's trivially easy for them to figure out the other end of the transaction.
Excellent point. There's no way to ban a potential buyer from using a merchant, is there? Not saying there should be, just curious.
Um...well, a social ban will prevent players from using traders among other things. But that's done by ZOS and usually for different reasons.
So no, there's no way to blacklist someone as a buyer, just as a member.
Most guilds will report the buyer and seller to ZOS when they see suspicious behavior, figuring that ZOS will sort it out. They might kick one or both of them from the guild to prevent further problems.
When I was an officer on a PC trading guild, we had a general rule about not dramatically overpricing items because we didn't want a reputation for price gouging. So it was easy to boot any gold-buying players.0 -
Amottica✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Why is this an issue? The game already has legalized gold selling/buying through Crowns.
Only difference is that in these cases, ZOS is not making a cut.
@Faulgor
Simply because the gold sellers use bots and such to farm their gold. And it’s a direct violation of the TOS per Zenimax official statement since it is trading a real work item for an in-game item. Zenimax considers crowns an in-game item which means crown trading is all in-game and therefore acceptable.
Yes, the last point is splitting a hair but a Zenimax owns this world so it is their hair to split.
That's the thing though. It has been literally months if not years since the last time I ran into mats (usually wolves lol) harvesting bot trains of 4 or more identical jabby-jabby templars running an obvious terrain script. I used to see them frequently in their favorite secluded spots but not these days.
That's what made me think that the 3rd party gold selling market was essentially dead here. If they're not botting to make gold to sell how the heck are they making their gold?
When they face pressure in one area, doing one thing, they change up their MO. They do not stop but only change.0 -
kashat✭✭vincentxavier wrote: »Are they getting real life money for this gold? I have heard of something like this on DCUO, so I guess it makes sense that it would happen here too.
Yes. They are.
I was asking about this in one of the more popular tradingguilds, I saw some trading I thought was fishy.
I asked about it and they basicly asked me to stop talking about it...
And the atmosphere in guildchat took a sour turn.
I was pretty shocked because, I mean for me it is obvious that it would be going on on some way, Every mmo has it.0