Ok here's an unpopular opinion but anyway:

I've been playing PVP a lot for the last couple of years and I came across good and bad players for every class, while the balance shifts from patch to patch, in the end it's all about counterplay and learning to adapt

The real problem is people are defining meta builds and whenever the next patch hits and they die to something while wearing the standard meta build there's call for a nerf.

I've seen non-top-tier classes performing incredibly well so it's not like only a few classes are effective.

Everyone likes a buff, no one likes a nerf but in the end ESO is really not so bad.

By saying this I'm not suggesting further tweaking isn't nescessary, some classes are underperforming a bit (nb for example could use some extra oomph in a time where people are hard to kill, and I don't play a nb) but in my humble opinion I see a lot of discussions where we're just exaggerating a bit on ESO being unbalanced or broken.

Well when you don't have content to release (PvP), you do the set/class shuffle and pick.

Most games do this, but they bring out new weapons, maps and what not at the same time. Here we are focusing a bit too much on class/set shuffle with no extras.

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

[snip]


Anyway, good post. I agree. People's reactions to the DK nerfs are overdramatic. DK's literally top all the charts, and even after this nerf, they'll still top all the charts, but at least other classes will have more of a chance.
PVE and PVP should be balanced separately, this would help balancing all classes. Then, NB and Warden need buffs (in different ways). NB, imo needs more of a rework if anything. I play templar, warden, and Sorc. Sorc's crystal weapon buff needs to be addressed as it's super borked. Rather than trying to balance two systems like this, they have the tools to separate them to balance them individually, and they really should.

[edited for bashing]

NB does not need a rework.

dmnqwk wrote: »

The issue is people only view things from their personal playstyle.

If you say 'my class is bad' you actually cut the sentence short, when you really want to say 'my class is bad at doing X when I press A B and C, I think B is weak and even if buffing it would make me good doing X, you'd decimate game mode Y but that's not my concern'.

Even when people go 'yeah, but...' it's still always a poor view of things as a whole. Warden can do enough damage as stamina-based, but not as Magicka? I think that's your concern because Magicka lacks an execute? That's on Magicka... NOT warden!

The game itself provides every buff/ability but I do think executes on the staff are missing, which perhaps is something the 10% single target fire passive could be altered to provide an execute function for Magicka.

Other than the execute thing, I don't think Wardens are in a bad place for damage output.

I've never really pushed for more damage. Warden's Damage is fine.

Warden's Toolkit is lacking though, which is what I and others have Addressed time and time again. Every Class should have a Reliable on Demand Stun. Every Class should have a Reliable Spammable that doesn't require jumping through hoops to be effective.

dmnqwk wrote: »

The issue is people only view things from their personal playstyle.

If you say 'my class is bad' you actually cut the sentence short, when you really want to say 'my class is bad at doing X when I press A B and C, I think B is weak and even if buffing it would make me good doing X, you'd decimate game mode Y but that's not my concern'.

Even when people go 'yeah, but...' it's still always a poor view of things as a whole. Warden can do enough damage as stamina-based, but not as Magicka? I think that's your concern because Magicka lacks an execute? That's on Magicka... NOT warden!

The game itself provides every buff/ability but I do think executes on the staff are missing, which perhaps is something the 10% single target fire passive could be altered to provide an execute function for Magicka.

Other than the execute thing, I don't think Wardens are in a bad place for damage output.

This is correct. We already have one post suggesting the NB needs the most rework with a reply suggesting the NB does not need any rework.

Much of this is just opinion based off our personal experiences which includes the build and playstyle we choose.

I agree OP that every class should be effective. I honestly think that's the goal, I just think it's a never ending task.

Every time they add sets (or extra skill lines) to the game, it can ultimately change the balance, especially if one class or race can take advantage of something differently than another. If they alter something like resource management for example, it suddenly can make a racial passive that gives rss help more powerful, or if the opposite happens: much weaker. We kind of see that with the meta set Bahsai's - a Breton DPS, already weaker due to not getting the straight power bonuses of Dunmer, Khajiit or Altmer, actually becomes even weaker when this set is meta b/c it benefits the least from it. Same for DK, many builds would avoid taking certain resource management passives so they would end up with lower magicka pools to get a bigger buff from the set. And that is just one set and dealing with a few of the races and mentioning one class with it. Not to mention mixing PvP into the mix and how a tweak to make something work better in PvE can suddenly makes it OP in PvP, or how something barely noticeable as a benefit in PvE gets changed b/c of how strong it plays in PvP. And lately, some of the hybridy changes that have been going on will complicate some things even further for a while (not to mention making those rss management races like Breton and Redguard feel even weaker and less versatile than they already do)

Then you have various ways one single class balances with itself in different forms. I play my mag Nightblade in PvP a lot and I'm not a ganker or bomber build, I just kind brawl with it like I would my templar or DK and it's definitely not the best use of that class. Stamblade is much stronger in PvP, so any tweaks they might make if they agreed magblade needed some love, they have to make sure it doesn't overbuff Stamblade or make certain focuses like ganking even stronger than it already is for the class. Not to mention from a creative standpoint, they often want to work any changes into the feel and theme of a class. They may have no interest in ever letting magicka NB be as good at just sitting in the thick like a DK b/c they excel at other aspects of gameplay a DK and even if you could nerf those down, you don't want to lose what makes one class a little different than the others. Even though some will say it can feel like this already, you don't want six classes that are just the same skills reskinned in different effects.

So my point is, you're always going to have balance issues. It's an ongoing struggle and there is always going to be a meta where a certain set or class performs a bit better in certain circumstances. PvP can make class imbalance feel even more punishing. And it often doesn't help that some of the good pvp players also gravitate toward the meta in both gear and class, so players that stick with their main and struggle vs. the latest thing are also often struggling vs. some of the better players when they see that class in action.

I DO think though, that they should keep working toward making sure every class is as effective as another at each role and in both pvp and pve. For years I've preached in the forums about tanking and how some classes needed a lot of love and how we shouldn't feel like we have to play a DK (or later Warden and Necro) in order to tank for a hardcore run. Sure, some super hardcore runs are still going to micro manage every class and build in the group, but my guild just does HM trials and then goes for trifectas slowly, so they aren't quite as strict. They mostly will ask for tanks to wear certain sets and just be able to do the job, but it still often felt like I needed to be on certain classes to do that job. It's gotten a lot better. I don't feel like I'm hurting my group if I bring my NB or Templar tank for example. Work still needs to be done, some tweaks here and there, but that will always be the case. At least they have gotten closer to the eso world I want to live in where I can feel just as solid on my NB tank as my DK for a run. And the same goes for healing and DPS. You want players to be able to use their favorite class for their favorite role, that's how you keep them most interested in the game.

It's just always going to be something they have to keep tweaking. The nature of the game when you are constantly adding new systems into the mix.

katanagirl1 wrote: »

For every class stamina build should be as effective as magicka build, and sadly it is not.

And probably never will be, because four of the six classes were designed back when everyone was supposed to use magicka while stamina was just for movement and flavor.

ESO has grown into the current mag/stam divide; it was not designed with it in mind.

in the hands of good players every class becomes good and dangerous, the difference only becomes apparent when the top x% play against each other. some classes are clearly more beginner friendly than others, but if we talk about the real potential of the class, this is really used by the fewest anyway. in this respect, you should first optimize your own way of playing, then it's enough for 95% of the opponents / content.

why mess with something that works lol

Ermiq wrote: »

How things work in the world where nothing gets nerfed:
This class is underperforming. Let's buff this ability.
Okay, looks like this class is overperforming compared to all the others.
Let's buff the others.
Oops, these two classes seem to have the unintended very strong options now. We need to buff the other classes too.
In the end of times: people run trials solo.

PS: don't tell me "but just be smart and buff only the things that need a buff and don't over buff, and everything will be fine". It doesn't work like that. I've never seen a single MMORPG ever that wouldn't have constant balance related issues and discussions.

There is no buff only nerf but same argument can be said about nerfing eventually no class can run trails

They should remove magdks abillity to regen resources outside the passive so they get a max of 666/s resource and then nerf passive to half 333/s then it will be equality between classes. But i agree on warden its class kit feels very limited and you will mostly end up with same builds on stam and mag like 2 of 5 in the supposed dps line is buffs

Lailaamell wrote: »

Ermiq wrote: »

How things work in the world where nothing gets nerfed:
This class is underperforming. Let's buff this ability.
Okay, looks like this class is overperforming compared to all the others.
Let's buff the others.
Oops, these two classes seem to have the unintended very strong options now. We need to buff the other classes too.
In the end of times: people run trials solo.

PS: don't tell me "but just be smart and buff only the things that need a buff and don't over buff, and everything will be fine". It doesn't work like that. I've never seen a single MMORPG ever that wouldn't have constant balance related issues and discussions.

There is no buff only nerf but same argument can be said about nerfing eventually no class can run trails

I never said "don't buff anything". Both buffs and nerfs is the way to go, always has been and always will be - that's what I mean. And when people complain about "__(put any game dev studio here) just loves to nerf things to the ground!", I feel like the people are not quite smart to say the least.
Back to you post and the words "there is no buff" particularly, where is "there"? You mean the upcoming DK nerf? Well, yes, it's just a nerf in this particular case. Do you suggest some buffs instead? Why? When some class is overpowered, it doesn't mean that you should buff the others, that's what I'm saying. You nerf the overperforming one, and I don't know, is it some quantum physics? Why is it not obvious to everyone?