Every class should be effective. Period.

BXR_Lonestar

Mr_Stach wrote: »

Note: This post is not a Dig into the previous Post. I also apologize that it got derailed so quickly.

ESO has always had a Balance Issue, Balance between classes and Balance between PvE and PvP. There's always a Meta to gravitate to and definitely underperforming and super over-performing classes and abilities

No class, no matter how over-performing, should be nerfed out of relevance.

Every class should have the tools to be effective and competitive in every venue of play, PvE, PvP, Solo, Trials, Dungeons. It doesn't matter. You should be able to feel powerful, no matter what class you play.

Yes. DK is Hella strong right now and with that nerf coming in High Isle, they will still be really good, probably still at the top of the food chain.

I've posted a lot lately about Warden needing better tools, I basically hijack any post vaguely referring to pvp balance to whine about Magden needing better tools.

We need to decrease the gap between the top and bottom performers. No one should feel handicapped when they join any game mode because their class doesn't have "X Feature".

I agree with this, but I'd take it one step further. Not only should each class have their own standout abilities (i.e., what that class does really well), but the way you build each class should also be different. This is one thing I hate about the hybridization/standardization system is that there is basically only 2-3 builds that are viable if you are looking to absolutely maximize your DPS. That should never be the case for a game that has 6 character classes AND the choice to make stamina or magika oriented characters. Everyone just goes for max damage with ~ 5k pen and as much crit chance/crit damage for any class or any build. Nobody builds for max stats/raw power (miss my max mag double pet sorc) or status chance builds, even though we now have better sets and champion perks to support those kinds of builds. Those builds are just not competitive because of the combat standardization (and to a lesser degree, hybridization).

It would be nice to see different classes have different ways to max out damage. Just for an example, sorc damage scaling could scale better off of max magika vs. templar, who's damage output scales best off of magic damage stat.

And while we're at it, why on earth is there no Class-specific sets? Powerful class specific sets could be one way to really make different classes shine in different roles.

Mr_Stach

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

And while we're at it, why on earth is there no Class-specific sets? Powerful class specific sets could be one way to really make different classes shine in different roles.

Well Nectopotence is essentially class specific, only Warden and Sorc get use out of it.

And maybe NB with their shades?? I've never actually tried that one so I'm not sure.

Aldoss

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

And while we're at it, why on earth is there no Class-specific sets? Powerful class specific sets could be one way to really make different classes shine in different roles.

I agree here, but I'm not quite sure how to implement something like that without the rng tables getting so bloated.

If it were the new arena weapons, for example, you'd need to drop 6 different sets of all weapon options to cover each class.

Perhaps instead of having them be weapons, they could be jewelry or body pieces to lower the loot table.

I think that would be an interesting expansion to boost creative options.

DagenHawk

Sure all classes should be effective...this is an unpopular opinion (I think Jack Emmert is the only dev that shares it) as long as we assign arbitrary numbers to characters we are going to have unbalance..we make it even more complected by handing out MTG like skills that have a Flavor text that provides numerical pluses or minuses.

It's an orgasmic dream for Spreadsheet monkeys, but a nightmare for that guy who just wants to play a Orc Templar, yet you need math for any video game...it's what they show us is the problem.

I have a buddy that works at Bioware here in Austin, he told me that the vast majority of the dev team spends time constantly fiddling with balancing, because the geniuses that created the convoluted systems are long gone and each new thing added throws everything else out of whack...so the entire budget (what little that there is left) is spent on patches bug fixes and Balance...no new content...just balance.

To some folks that is the fun though I have friends that play EvE online and they have created their own databases that could impress a Price Waterhouse employee.

I think at some point developers are going to start asking why are we doing this to ourselves? And the end user will stop seeing as much as they do now.

/shurg that's just one mans opinion.

Mesite

I always tell younger family member that 'Life's not fair' from a young age so they aren't disappointed with life. If life gives you lemons make lemonade.

Didgerion

I don't even know why there are classes at all in ESO.

There should be only the skill lines in the game, period.

I know it doesn't resonate to most of you but try to imagine Vampire as a class or WW as a class...yes you cannot, same would have go for the other classes if we weren't forced into the class system at the beginning of the game.

Now imagine how easy the balance would have been in a class-less system, the overperforming skills could be fixed without nerfing a class beyond unplayable, the players would have been more happy, with less alts, less grind and more roleplaying.

Arthtur

Meanwhile "DPS/Class Tier List for HI"... DKs at the bottom of the rankings yet again. So strong after the nerfs that ppl talk how its better to take Necro with Zen instead of DK xD
Well only few days left and we will be back to asking for buffs... i cant wait :x

wolfie1.0.

I would just like to point out that there will always be an imbalance no matter what you do so long as each class has differences. The question really is then exactly how big is the gap?

Caribou77

Assuming this is primarily PVP focused, an interesting and potent factor in class competitiveness is how well that class’s key skills work with server lag. Magden, for example, has slow offensive skills. Trying to line up shalks on a stam character who is typically faster than you is challenging, but you can learn to do it. Throw in a dose of lag and it becomes extremely challenging. Try casting cliff racer during lag. No one uses the skill because it crawls.

Meanwhile, a good stamsorc just hit you with 4 whirling blades in a row while you were trying to get elemental weapon to actually fire.

My point is, if you have lag like most of us, you inevitably wind up playing a class with skills fast enough to be effective in lag conditions, which is pretty limiting and significantly diminishes the dynamism of the game.

FeedbackOnly

Buff dk healer please

ResidentContrarian

DagenHawk wrote: »

I have a buddy that works at Bioware here in Austin, he told me that the vast majority of the dev team spends time constantly fiddling with balancing, because the geniuses that created the convoluted systems are long gone and each new thing added throws everything else out of whack...so the entire budget (what little that there is left) is spent on patches bug fixes and Balance...no new content...just balance.

Sums up exactly what's wrong with most games seeking balance, but ESO also has a playerbase that does warn them in the PTS about balance issues with some things they introduce.

Unfortunately, there is always a large amount of players that claim "X is fine" because they understand how much powercreep is coming and want it to enable their "fun" of stomping others that either don't have access to said power or don't know what kinds of builds are possible.

All that happens is that players won't participate in content where powercreep is most noticeable and impossible to overcome. I don't bother arguing with players over balance much, because ultimately ZOS has historically done what they wanted, and that always tends to be to let some players live their power fantasy at the expense of others, whether that means op gear, skills, mechanics, etc. are left in the game until they become too problematic and get nerfed down the line (like Living Dark).

I, myself, simply won't be playing PvP this patch and dealing with the nonsense balance there thanks to the changes they have made. Plenty of PvE for me to do, and the less skillful PvP becomes, the more boring it is. I have zero interest in running a build where I rarely die because of gear that's out of line, skills out of line, and ultimately a playerbase that isn't honest with feedback.

FeedbackOnly

ResidentContrarian wrote: »

DagenHawk wrote: »

I have a buddy that works at Bioware here in Austin, he told me that the vast majority of the dev team spends time constantly fiddling with balancing, because the geniuses that created the convoluted systems are long gone and each new thing added throws everything else out of whack...so the entire budget (what little that there is left) is spent on patches bug fixes and Balance...no new content...just balance.

Sums up exactly what's wrong with most games seeking balance, but ESO also has a playerbase that does warn them in the PTS about balance issues with some things they introduce.

Unfortunately, there is always a large amount of players that claim "X is fine" because they understand how much powercreep is coming and want it to enable their "fun" of stomping others that either don't have access to said power or don't know what kinds of builds are possible.

All that happens is that players won't participate in content where powercreep is most noticeable and impossible to overcome. I don't bother arguing with players over balance much, because ultimately ZOS has historically done what they wanted, and that always tends to be to let some players live their power fantasy at the expense of others, whether that means op gear, skills, mechanics, etc. are left in the game until they become too problematic and get nerfed down the line (like Living Dark).

I, myself, simply won't be playing PvP this patch and dealing with the nonsense balance there thanks to the changes they have made. Plenty of PvE for me to do, and the less skillful PvP becomes, the more boring it is. I have zero interest in running a build where I rarely die because of gear that's out of line, skills out of line, and ultimately a playerbase that isn't honest with feedback.

Battlegrounds can still be fun

Everrsor

they're

Browiseth

every class should be effective

except mag wardens, especially the ones using frost magic

i don't think it would be fair on the rest of us if they were effective

Mr_Stach

Browiseth wrote: »

every class should be effective

except mag wardens, especially the ones using frost magic

i don't think it would be fair on the rest of us if they were effective

Caribou77

Battlegrounds are now filled with DKs and Magplars, the latter of which I have affectionately taken to calling "Spazplars" as they typically do a toppling charge then mash biting jabs for days and days and days until maybe something dies.

I realize it's just a video game and people can have fun doing whatever they want. It's just hard for me to understand how mashing a single skill repeatedly could be interesting/entertaining.

I propose eliminating biting jabs and dragon leap to force 70% of people in BGs to reconsider a more dynamic, responsive combat style.