Punishment to certain abilities (Burst heals, Shadowy Disguise, Snipe, Cleanse)

N1K3 · May 2022

The game has reached a point for a while now with certain abilities that will either “make it or break it” scenario or just drag on a fight unnecessary with zero punishment.

Over the years ESO have implemented some sort of punishment if used consecutively to holding block, dodge rolling and a certain ability; Bolt Escape (Casting again within 4 seconds costs 33% more Magicka)

Other abilities I believe require to have similar type of mechanic. (Just like how Bolt Escape works)

•ALL class 1 button burst heals
Naming a few as examples (Malevolent Offering, Coagulating Blood, Rushed Ceremony, Artic Wind ect.)
Healing and sustaining have been easily achievable for a while now, even to the most novice players. A typical scenario; being out pressured by an opponent then all you have to do is hold block and spam a 1 button burst heal 2+ times just to prolong a inevitable death anyway.

•Shadowy Disguise
Being able to spam one button “restart any given fight” eventually just dying or fleeing away (valid strategy btw) if the heats too much, get away right?

Like Bolt Escape, there needs to be some sort of drawback for spamming it back to back. Two very powerful unique ability for defensive and offensive play. Yes I know, use a detect pot, activate expert hunter/magelight or spam a AOE, but just like Bolt Escape which can also be countered with a gap closer, it has its own drawback with the increase cost cooldown. Just saying these two abilities should be in par imo.

•Cleansing Ritual
Let’s face it, we all know templars are just outperforming in every single aspect atm.
Relentless DPS w/ Burst Damage & a FREE proc damage class passive (won’t get into that right now) with strong heals overtime, a burst heal AND a purify that negates every other class potential damage with zero punishment. Compare it to other purify such as Betty Netch, which gives a major buff and it’s FREE, spam it as much as you want but it’s still not even comparable to Extended Ritual.

•Snipe
Do I need to say more to this one? #dysync
Increase cost to each consecutive cast OR/AND reduce damage for each consecutive cast!

For real tho, even though it’s not necessary; BUFF the tooltip of Snipe, burst heals & increase the duration of Shadowy Disguise by a second if you must. Just add some sort of punishment if used back to back!

EDIT: Another idea of punishment for burst heals and Snipe; reduce the healing/damage output X amount of % for each consecutive cast.

Minno · May 2022

I too would like to see a return to the resource management era of ESO aka 2014.
But that said, the game has changed too much and there are some counters to the above abilities. And many classes were changed to appease PVE performance over pvp (templars losing stun off their jabs, etc).

But a good fix would be to probably take a look at the current power levels in the game and their interaction with scalings. For example, if players complain about powerful healing and tough classes that build glass canon but use shadow disguise to reset fights, which of those is most troubling? My gut says, as a example, the cringe youtube builds that get like 40k mana with 6k SP are to blame and not the abilities/classes themselves.

That and the homogeneous aspect of the major/minor buff system result in some pretty front end builds that appear stronger than their spells/abilities/passives suggest. For example, when they made balanced warrior on templar to include SP. They didnt have to do that, knowing the difference between a templar with major sorcery and zero access to balanced war passive really wasnt that far away from a templar only running minor sorcery. My intent is to say, they could use a revamp of the buff system and maybe curate it a bunch.

Same issue happens in pve where you have this weird stacking of certain abilities in a timed rotation. Most of the DPS classes functioned for a while with backbar destro staves and other weapons with dots they can fire and forget. For a game that wants to be a more roleplay aspect of a MMO set in ES lore, it feels weird all around. For that they should probably change to a 1 weapon only while in combat. The bar swap mechanics do feel out of place for both a MMO and an RPG.

It is just a design issue with games that have open ended selections on builds, especially when the game also has to appease to the ES lore/fanbase.

jecks33 · May 2022

ok but do it via Battle Spirit, please

Irfind · May 2022

N1K3 wrote: »

•Snipe
Do I need to say more to this one? #dysync
Increase cost to each consecutive cast OR/AND reduce damage for each consecutive cast!

Snipe is a spammable for Bow users so .... NO

BXR_Lonestar · May 2022

Been saying this for a few years now. You want to stop snipe spam? Make Snipe an ultimate and make it a virtual OHK with a pretty expensive ulti cost and then replace snipe with something else.

IMO, snipe SHOULD be a strong skill. "Sniping" in other games is a OHK. That would stop the spam for sure, with some tradeoffs: all but the most tanky characters out there would basically get OHK. I think that is a pretty good trade off if desync is such a big issue.

Mr_Stach · May 2022

I just want to point out that Arctic Blast isn't even that good of a Burst Heal comparatively, it scales off max health, has a pretty high cost and the rest of the skill is screwy, the AoE DoT is Bad as it does match up with comparable AoE DoT durations and the Stun is mediocre.

Take that as you will.

lonnml · May 2022

if you’re dying to snipe and don’t know how to counter a cloaked nightblade this might be a l2p issue

AcadianPaladin · May 2022

Bow/bow PvE'ers (all classes) have limited options for a spammable as @irfind said above. Of the several options, none are great but snipe is perhaps the best. So, for PvP, use battle spirit to do whatever the PvP community wants. But for PvE. . . leave snipe alone!

Kahnak · May 2022

"The game has reached a point for a while now with certain abilities that will either “make it or break it” scenario or just drag on a fight unnecessary with zero punishment."

In other words, players should be punished for using certain abilities to prevent themselves from dying when you think they should die. If that isn't obviously a bad reason to nerf any ability, I don't know what to tell you. Not one of those abilities is going to keep an experienced PvPer from killing you, especially with Battle Spirit.

"People on the other team are killing me too fast, so I think they should be punished for using abilities that kill me faster than I think I should be killed"

Didgerion · May 2022

Having any sort of cooldowns for skills is wrong and it goes against the original idea of the game creators.

There are more creative ways to balance things than adding cooldowns.

Here are few examples how we can balance things in PVP more creatively and realistically:
Roll dodge - currently roll dodge is way too powerful even with the cooldown, it allows players to escape neardeath situations quite consistently. Solution: remove cooldown but make it a 50% dodge chance instead in PVP.

Burst heal - instead of nerfing it across the board, ( which is a bad idea hence there are squishy builds out there that really need big spammable heals) fix it where it overperforms. For example, if you take only 20% of the damage due to high mitigation but can heal for 100% then there is clearly a problem. Solution: add a healing penalty in PVP that scales of your mitigation.

The Streak's cooldown is out of place, there are builds out there that can keep up with a streaking sorc, - Solution: Remove streak's cooldown and add more options for players to keep up with a streaking Sorc, it will only make the game more fun for everyone.

N1K3 · May 2022

Kahnak wrote: »

"The game has reached a point for a while now with certain abilities that will either “make it or break it” scenario or just drag on a fight unnecessary with zero punishment."

In other words, players should be punished for using certain abilities to prevent themselves from dying when you think they should die. If that isn't obviously a bad reason to nerf any ability, I don't know what to tell you. Not one of those abilities is going to keep an experienced PvPer from killing you, especially with Battle Spirit.

"People on the other team are killing me too fast, so I think they should be punished for using abilities that kill me faster than I think I should be killed"

Lol, A non experience player can definitely stay alive from a experienced pvper. (That’s why I made this post) I can promise you that. What platform are you on?

WrathOfInnos · May 2022

I don't think any skills should punish the user. Just let people play the way they want. Their opponent should certainly not be deciding which skills they are allowed to cast. Everything has counters, including dodge and streak (the stacking cost should be removed from both).

N1K3 · May 2022

Minno wrote: »

I too would like to see a return to the resource management era of ESO aka 2014.
But that said, the game has changed too much and there are some counters to the above abilities. And many classes were changed to appease PVE performance over pvp (templars losing stun off their jabs, etc).

But a good fix would be to probably take a look at the current power levels in the game and their interaction with scalings. For example, if players complain about powerful healing and tough classes that build glass canon but use shadow disguise to reset fights, which of those is most troubling? My gut says, as a example, the cringe youtube builds that get like 40k mana with 6k SP are to blame and not the abilities/classes themselves.

That and the homogeneous aspect of the major/minor buff system result in some pretty front end builds that appear stronger than their spells/abilities/passives suggest. For example, when they made balanced warrior on templar to include SP. They didnt have to do that, knowing the difference between a templar with major sorcery and zero access to balanced war passive really wasnt that far away from a templar only running minor sorcery. My intent is to say, they could use a revamp of the buff system and maybe curate it a bunch.

Same issue happens in pve where you have this weird stacking of certain abilities in a timed rotation. Most of the DPS classes functioned for a while with backbar destro staves and other weapons with dots they can fire and forget. For a game that wants to be a more roleplay aspect of a MMO set in ES lore, it feels weird all around. For that they should probably change to a 1 weapon only while in combat. The bar swap mechanics do feel out of place for both a MMO and an RPG.

It is just a design issue with games that have open ended selections on builds, especially when the game also has to appease to the ES lore/fanbase.

We can’t change builds because there’s always going to be another way to achieve those stats (40k mag 6k sd ect….) there’s also builds that can get you spamming streak indefinitely but the point is there is STILL a punishment to spamming Bolt escape. All I’m saying is why not implemented it for other strong abilities that prolong a fight?

N1K3 · May 2022

Mr_Stach wrote: »

I just want to point out that Arctic Blast isn't even that good of a Burst Heal comparatively, it scales off max health, has a pretty high cost and the rest of the skill is screwy, the AoE DoT is Bad as it does match up with comparable AoE DoT durations and the Stun is mediocre.

Take that as you will.

There’s a good reason why this has been nerf twice AND still getting a nerf next patch unfortunately.

N1K3 · May 2022

lonnml wrote: »

if you’re dying to snipe and don’t know how to counter a cloaked nightblade this might be a l2p issue

Haha I’m definitely not dying to those players as much as you may think making that claim, these type of nightblades are terrible and the only thing keeping them alive is invis, counter or not. it’s just sad to seeing these guys that could improve so much more getting carried big time…

I main a stamblade. If you play a cloaking blade I’d love to fight you sometimes

Mr_Stach · May 2022

N1K3 wrote: »

Mr_Stach wrote: »

I just want to point out that Arctic Blast isn't even that good of a Burst Heal comparatively, it scales off max health, has a pretty high cost and the rest of the skill is screwy, the AoE DoT is Bad as it does match up with comparable AoE DoT durations and the Stun is mediocre.

Take that as you will.

There’s a good reason why this has been nerf twice AND still getting a nerf next patch unfortunately.

Ok.

So it's fine that I need to wait 5 seconds, and if they walk out of the AoE, I need to recast spend 8k for a Stun. That makes perfect Sense. But Sorc/Templar/DK can just instantly stun someone. That's some great Balance.

N1K3 · May 2022

Minno wrote: »

I too would like to see a return to the resource management era of ESO aka 2014.
But that said, the game has changed too much and there are some counters to the above abilities. And many classes were changed to appease PVE performance over pvp (templars losing stun off their jabs, etc).

But a good fix would be to probably take a look at the current power levels in the game and their interaction with scalings. For example, if players complain about powerful healing and tough classes that build glass canon but use shadow disguise to reset fights, which of those is most troubling? My gut says, as a example, the cringe youtube builds that get like 40k mana with 6k SP are to blame and not the abilities/classes themselves.

That and the homogeneous aspect of the major/minor buff system result in some pretty front end builds that appear stronger than their spells/abilities/passives suggest. For example, when they made balanced warrior on templar to include SP. They didnt have to do that, knowing the difference between a templar with major sorcery and zero access to balanced war passive really wasnt that far away from a templar only running minor sorcery. My intent is to say, they could use a revamp of the buff system and maybe curate it a bunch.

Same issue happens in pve where you have this weird stacking of certain abilities in a timed rotation. Most of the DPS classes functioned for a while with backbar destro staves and other weapons with dots they can fire and forget. For a game that wants to be a more roleplay aspect of a MMO set in ES lore, it feels weird all around. For that they should probably change to a 1 weapon only while in combat. The bar swap mechanics do feel out of place for both a MMO and an RPG.

It is just a design issue with games that have open ended selections on builds, especially when the game also has to appease to the ES lore/fanbase.

That’s true, I’m just wishful thinking here huh? unfortunately the game is at minimal skill base game than ever.

Mr_Stach · May 2022

Now I don't care about the Heal on Arctic Blast.

Just Remove it, make it an Instant Stun on the First person you hit, Increase the Duration to 10s to match other AoE Abilities. Donezo.

N1K3 · May 2022

Mr_Stach wrote: »

N1K3 wrote: »

Mr_Stach wrote: »

I just want to point out that Arctic Blast isn't even that good of a Burst Heal comparatively, it scales off max health, has a pretty high cost and the rest of the skill is screwy, the AoE DoT is Bad as it does match up with comparable AoE DoT durations and the Stun is mediocre.

Take that as you will.

There’s a good reason why this has been nerf twice AND still getting a nerf next patch unfortunately.

Ok.

So it's fine that I need to wait 5 seconds, and if they walk out of the AoE, I need to recast spend 8k for a Stun. That makes perfect Sense. But Sorc/Templar/DK can just instantly stun someone. That's some great Balance.

And that’s the problem^^^ a meh burst heal, a heal overtime AND a stun.

But yes not disagreeing with you, unblockable stuns on any class is lol, Not going to discuss it here haha
someone’s going to say “ there’s a counter for that too” 😂

N1K3 · May 2022

Mr_Stach wrote: »

Now I don't care about the Heal on Arctic Blast.

Just Remove it, make it an Instant Stun on the First person you hit, Increase the Duration to 10s to match other AoE Abilities. Donezo.

If you need an instant unblockable AOE stun, just use Turn Evil from Fighters Guild instead. Even though I somewhat agree with you that the burst heal or/and heal overtime of Artic Blast being “meh” it still really makes a difference in staying alive IF you don’t have another heal to replace it with. And if you do go the route of dropping Artic Blast for Turn Evil, do you really think you have the room on your bar for another healing ability without sacrificing too much?

^^^And this is why the skill itself is very strong, 1 ability that does 3 things. Burst heal, HOT & unblockable stun (yes I know, counter to everything right? move away or run immovable pots) but in reality, if you’re already being out-pressured and you’re just spamming 1 button heals and doing little to no damage back (And you’re also some sort of damage dealer yourself) you already lost the fight 9/10 times (Unless you’re saving for a balorgh 😂)…. You’re just prolonging a inevitable death or you really just don’t want to die even if you did zero to little effort towards your opponent, it’s a win as long as the other player doesn’t kill you right? #ESOMENTALITY101

ESO community be like; “damn, it took that player that long to kill me” or “it takes X amount of players to kill me” even though I couldn’t kill anyone. People really feel good about themselves and think they’re actually made an impact.

A 7-year old game that has always had the potential to be such a good game if it was really more skill base (anything to do with PVP should be more skill base imo) but unfortunately it’s business at the end of the day for ZOS, anything to make the casual/inexperience players pay for and compete (#1buttonheals, freedamageprocs) otherwise more players would leave the game which = less money.
It is such a shame.