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"Room the MMO" or "Have we been reduced to this?"
DagenHawk
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Okay this is my caffeine fueled rant for today...
I recently discovered that there is a MMO within ESO called "Room ®" In "Room®" you can quickly and effectively level up and equip your Companion and Character all by walking fifteen yards Kill ten Goblins walking back Fifteen yards Kill ten more Goblins collect loot and sell it to your Merchant when your inventory gets full.
Once your companion is leveled you then may leave "Room ®" and begin playing ESO.
I'm writing this post to demonstrate the ridiculousness of levels, the level systems serves no purpose other than be a minor annoyance and time gate for the player but thanks to "Room®" a player can bypass it all in a afternoon...so why even have it?
I recently discovered that there is a MMO within ESO called "Room ®" In "Room®" you can quickly and effectively level up and equip your Companion and Character all by walking fifteen yards Kill ten Goblins walking back Fifteen yards Kill ten more Goblins collect loot and sell it to your Merchant when your inventory gets full.
Once your companion is leveled you then may leave "Room ®" and begin playing ESO.
I'm writing this post to demonstrate the ridiculousness of levels, the level systems serves no purpose other than be a minor annoyance and time gate for the player but thanks to "Room®" a player can bypass it all in a afternoon...so why even have it?
1
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DagenHawk✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »What?
Okay...now stay with me on this.
Imagine a world where you could create your character and/or adopt a Companion and not waste time leveling them.
Wouldn't that be nice?
Edited by DagenHawk on May 21, 2022 8:31PM0 -
perfiction✭✭✭✭✭Well, in other MMOs you can pay for max level boost, is it better than manually leveling your character/companion? (btw sorry for giving ZOS ideas
)
Leveling new characters in ESO is fairly quick anyway, brp/skyreach in training gear and you get to 50 in few hours.
Edited by perfiction on May 21, 2022 8:34PM2 -
Kiralyn2000✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Imagine a world where you could create your character and/or adopt a Companion and not waste time leveling them.
Wouldn't that be nice?
No. Leveling/building/developing new characters is fun. All this "the game only starts at endgame/the level cap" stuff is a plague upon many game genres.
edit: and yeah, I've started just deleting those generic login-reward XP scrolls, because once I had more than 200 they started taking a second slot in my bank.Edited by Kiralyn2000 on May 21, 2022 8:34PM23 -
DagenHawk✭✭✭✭✭Kiralyn2000 wrote: »Imagine a world where you could create your character and/or adopt a Companion and not waste time leveling them.
Wouldn't that be nice?
No. Leveling/building/developing new characters is fun. All this "the game only starts at endgame/the level cap" stuff is a plague upon many game genres.
Okay but honestly not that many people do that...especially when you can get to max level in just a few hours
and honestly what if there were no endgame what if it was just...the game?0 -
Kiralyn2000✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭We already have "the game". If people stopped obsessively leveling, they might notice it.34 -
DagenHawk✭✭✭✭✭Kiralyn2000 wrote: »We already have "the game". If people stopped obsessively leveling, they might notice it.
You are just not going to stop that. Levels are arbitrary and they mean nothing...you might as well ask the player to Bunny hop her character for two hours to reach "max Level"
Levels were borrowed from D&D and like most things in a Table top RPG it's just awkward. and doesn't quiet fit.
The devs know this...they are just afraid of change even logical change.0 -
EozZoe1989✭✭✭lol if dont wanna play a leveling game .. then why play eso if like eso why moan about it lol
and also change in the game is fine..
postive words are good..
naming shaming is bad bullying also,,
but in game people do it anyways ..o.o should be game modders on during day and night to watch people in zone chat and other in i know hard,, but if anything ,, bullys need to be banned.
leveling is apart of gaming in mmos lol
so i think that will never change lol
companions too i think they need it but could have more levels.. if anything make it so we can add any of are suff on companions.,. also skills too..3 -
proprio.meb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭Jeez we're at the point not only people does not want to grind anymore, they do not even want to lose time leveling up a toon.
I suppose "why do play it at all? just give us rewards!" will be the next logical tought... amazingEdited by proprio.meb16_ESO on May 21, 2022 9:37PM15 -
Tandor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »What?
Okay...now stay with me on this.
Imagine a world where you could create your character and/or adopt a Companion and not waste time leveling them.
Wouldn't that be nice?
No, it would be completely pointless. You would simply reach more quickly the point where you complain about the lack of things to do. If character progression doesn't appeal, then perhaps MMORPGs aren't the right genre for you.
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Kiralyn2000✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭You are just not going to stop that. Levels are arbitrary and they mean nothing...you might as well ask the player to Bunny hop her character for two hours to reach "max Level"
Levels were borrowed from D&D and like most things in a Table top RPG it's just awkward. and doesn't quiet fit.
Eh. Levels (whether character levels, skill levels, etc), are a useful way to quantify progression. Don't find them awkward at all. /shrug
(But then, I've been playing games with levels for 30+ years. Including, yes, tabletop RPGs of many flavors. They fit just fine.
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...the whole "bunny hop for two hours to reach max level" thing does remind me of people jumping up & down stairs in Morrowind & Oblivion to level up their Athletics, though.
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Agenericname✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭proprio.meb16_ESO wrote: »Jeez we're at the point not only people does not want to grind anymore, they do not even want to lose time leveling up a toon.
I suppose "why do play it at all? just give us rewards!" will be the next logical tought... amazing
A "win" button at the log in screen is where this ends.12 -
MasterSpatula✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »What?
Okay...now stay with me on this.
Imagine a world where you could create your character and/or adopt a Companion and not waste time leveling them.
Wouldn't that be nice?
Imagine, if you will, an MMO that you can play without the tedium of actually having to play.
"A probable impossibility is preferable to an improbable possibility." - Aristotle15 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Kiralyn2000 wrote: »We already have "the game". If people stopped obsessively leveling, they might notice it.
You are just not going to stop that. Levels are arbitrary and they mean nothing...you might as well ask the player to Bunny hop her character for two hours to reach "max Level"
Levels were borrowed from D&D and like most things in a Table top RPG it's just awkward. and doesn't quiet fit.
The devs know this...they are just afraid of change even logical change.
Unsurprisingly, the TES games have strong roots in D&D and cRPG adaptations of that system.
Are the levels in ESO kind of awkward? Sure.
Are the levels also expected in a TES game? Yeah, pretty much. Arena, Daggerfall, Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim all had them. The TES games have done away with certain aspects of D&D (like Morrowind's dice rolls in combat) and kept others.
Now, it's possible that the Devs will reject the awkwardness, embrace logic, and remove the unwieldy combination of levels vs CP business that ESO has grown into. Alternatively, I think its likely that the logic of maintaining the Elder Scrolls "brand" in the first MMO of the series means we're likely to hang onto those D&D/CRPG/TES levels.
Also, Skyreach leveling (and the complaints about "Skyreach babies") has been going on for ages. Since One Tamriel, there's been ways to rush the leveling process for players who want to do so.5 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MasterSpatula wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »What?
Okay...now stay with me on this.
Imagine a world where you could create your character and/or adopt a Companion and not waste time leveling them.
Wouldn't that be nice?
Imagine, if you will, an MMO that you can play without the tedium of actually having to play.
That's the PTS for me, unless I have something very specific I want to test.
I log on, make a template character, spend an hour playing around with every piece of gear under the sun, another hour decorating a house I'll never buy with every furnishing I can, and then get bored because nothing I do will last beyond the next reset.4 -
Supreme_Atromancer✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭What I think is a weakness in your argument is this assumption that "nobody wants to level". If you're presented with evidence its not the case, and proceed to double down, it becomes obvious to others why you're missing the big picture and mistaking "the people you know" for the 20 million players out there.
Here's the thing that I think your idea needs to contend with: progressing your character through levelling is one of the pillars of Roleplaying Games, and I strongly suspect that many many people consider it an integral part of the experience. Which would mean that you're pushing something a lot more people than you considered are not going to care about, or worse- be opposed to because it will impact their experience.
I don't think its a terrible idea as an *option*. I wont use them, but if ZOS wants to sell scrolls to people who don't want to grind or whatever, it doesn't effect my experience in the slightest, so why not make money and make people happy?
I think another direction to think about the problem (not mutually exclusive with your solution) is to make the levelling system more meaningful. The system still has a lot of baggage associated with their older philosophy, and the changes they've made over the years has resulted in a somewhat clunky, incohesive system that could use some work. For instance, many of the level-associated gear and consumables are so ephemeral as to have been essentially orphaned by the game- food and recipes, potions, repair kits, gear. They took the plunge with Soul Gems several years ago, reducing them to one type- so they could conceivably follow through with other things?
The transition between traditional levels and champion points also seems pretty clunky to me- its certainly hard to explain to newer players what's going on. Its not the product of an organic levelling system, but a patchwork fixer-upper. I think it would be better if they merged traditional levels with champion points which you can start achieving and assigning immediately. We don't need "levels" and "champion levels". Just make them all functionally champion levels, call them just "levels", assign attribute increases and skill points to the first 64 levels, along with the perks. Very tidier, such cohesive.
As to how they could make the levelling system more meaningful while still satisfying within the framework of being able to play with your friends at any level, well that one's a bit more of a tricky challenge, I guess. But I suspect ZOS hasn't gotten rid of levels altogether because they do recognise its importance to a lot of people. I'd be looking at what that experience currently means to those people -the whole developing as a character, gaining power, and sense of progress stuff- and then trying to develop around that. Right now the only meaning seems to be just an obligate, suggested time to become familiar with a class, and growing into an ultimate build via skill and morph choices: there are no tiers of power to speak of (though there was more so at launch).Edited by Supreme_Atromancer on May 22, 2022 3:28AM8 -
Tesman85✭✭✭✭Character experience levels are a tried and true method for providing a sense of progress and a way to measure it. Also, they are the easiest one to implement. So I understand why ESO and most other MMO's use them.
Still, OP is at least somewhat right. With levels and especially the game items tied to them there comes the sense of being compelled to get to the maximum item level as soon as possible. Otherwise, one doesn't get the full benefits of gear. Besides, if one has multiple characters at multiple levels, it's very inconvenient to swap found overland sets etc. between them since the lowel level character can't use what the high level character has found and the latter has no use for low level gear. Thus, the levels are somewhat of a barrier to full enjoyment of the game.
Fortunately there is a solution to this dilemma, and it has been succesfully implemented in at least one RPG before. I mean the system where skills, and not levels, are in the centre of the system. In the 1990's RPG Darklands there are no experience levels, only attributes and skills. Attributes are semi-fixed at the start (you can alter them only by occasional random events), but skills grow by using them. All skills are theoretically available to all characters, but if one hasn't put points into them in the character creation, they are next to useless. All gear qualities are usable right from the start, and the skills govern how useful the gear is (and in case of armor, strength determines which armor is most sensible).
How could this kind of system be implemented in ESO? The attribute points could be all distributed at the character creation - with the option of respeccing retained, of course. Also, gear attribute enchantments could be buffed as a tool for differentiating characters. Class could determine which skills get initial boost (and maybe which skill ultimates would available), and instead of overall experience points skill experience points would be the most important. Current weapon, crafting, PvP, world and guild skills would be "wild" in the sense that no class would govern them. General exp points could be retained for exploration and quest rewards so that they would count towards class skills or all skills.
All active skills in the game could be available to all characters from the start. This would make the system a hybrid of previous TES titles and Darklands. Skill points would be retained, as would be morphs and passive skills. Skill points would be awarded by class skill advancements and otherwise by the same methods as now. Seeing how in this proposed system all basic skills would be usable to everyone, skill points would mainly be used for ultimates, morphs and passives. This would open a way for a multitude of very creative builds and truly viable hybridization, and thus would be a boon for anyone liking to tinker with builds.
Gear would still come in different qualities, both material-wise and improvement-wise, but it would all be usable from the start. Most gear drops would be lowest qualities, but bosses would drop better things and high-quality things could be crafted by a skilled character. In this way no gear would become wholly obsolete but could be used by different characters.
And champion points? Skill "over-levels" could replace them, with a new selection of passives becoming available when one would reach the maximum skill level in some skill. Those passives would be gradual in the same way the CP's are now and so encourage endgame play.
I think this kind of system, of which only a rough outline could be given here, would be the most flexible and enjoyable. But since it would require a wide redesign of the game system, I don't expect ever to see it in ESO. But one can always hope. Or maybe I should design my own game...Edited by Tesman85 on May 22, 2022 5:13AM3 -
Amottica✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Kiralyn2000 wrote: »Imagine a world where you could create your character and/or adopt a Companion and not waste time leveling them.
Wouldn't that be nice?
No. Leveling/building/developing new characters is fun. All this "the game only starts at endgame/the level cap" stuff is a plague upon many game genres.
Okay but honestly not that many people do that...especially when you can get to max level in just a few hours
and honestly what if there were no endgame what if it was just...the game?
More people than you think probably level up normally. I ca attest most know hate doing a grind and prefer to play the game. As such that’s how they level, by playing the game.
It would seem the replies in this thread strongly most agree with me.9 -
Beilin_Balreis_Colcan✭✭✭✭✭
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I know I do. I prefer to play the game at a "normal" rate. I quest, I listen to the NPCs without speed-clicking through the dialogues, I forage, fight any random hostile NPCs I can find, I scry and excavate, and I even read many of the books. The levelling just naturally goes with that.Kiralyn2000 wrote: »Imagine a world where you could create your character and/or adopt a Companion and not waste time leveling them.
Wouldn't that be nice?
No. Leveling/building/developing new characters is fun. All this "the game only starts at endgame/the level cap" stuff is a plague upon many game genres.
Okay but honestly not that many people do that...especially when you can get to max level in just a few hours
and honestly what if there were no endgame what if it was just...the game?
More people than you think probably level up normally. I ca attest most know hate doing a grind and prefer to play the game. As such that’s how they level, by playing the game.
It would seem the replies in this thread strongly most agree with me.PC(Steam) / EU / play from Melbourne, Australia / avg ping 3903 -
Daraklus✭✭✭✭Kiralyn2000 wrote: »We already have "the game". If people stopped obsessively leveling, they might notice it.
I have played "The Game". It's disappointing, with the endgame actually providing a level of depth.1 -
WhiteCoatSyndrome✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭All the monsters and zones are already leveled to you. And I’ve seen groups specifically look for lower-level characters, I assume so they can avoid the DLC dungeons. #proud2BAStarObsessedLoony
PAWS (Positively Against Wrip-off Stuff) - Say No to Crown Crates!
A useful explanation for how RNG works
How to turn off the sustainability features (screen dimming, fps cap) on PC0 -
Browiseth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭eh, thats part of the rpg in mmorpg though isn't it? a progression system + rewarding the player for their time spent playing the game in small ways like levelling up your character (or in this case your companion) is kinda the entire point
its those little bits of dopamine that keep you playing the game in the first place, even if you don't really think about it
and i don't really care if you happen to be the one exception to this. levelling up, finding loot, unlocking abilities...its all of these little micro rewards that are often core to rpgs and rpg inspired games. if you dont like it, then im sorry but it's the nature of the beast
that's not even mentioning the fact you actively chose to grind out your companion's levels in a boring - but efficient way. that's a choice you made. you could have levelled your companion up passively while playing other content you would have enjoyed more, but you chose to fast-track it through a less enjoyable but quicker method
and i think that's pretty cool. it's nice that you have the option to do that, but you also have the option to not do thatEdited by Browiseth on May 22, 2022 12:17PMskingrad when zoscharacters:PC/NA but live in EU 150+ ping lyfe- EP - M - Strikes-with-Arcane - Argonian Stamina Sorc - lvl 50 - The Flawless Conqueror/Spirit Slayer
- EP - F - Melina Elinia - Dunmer Magicka Dragonknight - lvl 50
- EP - F - Sinnia Lavellan - Altmer Warden Healer - lvl 50
- EP - M - Follows-the-Arcane - Argonian Healer Sorcerer- lvl 50
- EP - F - Ashes-of-Arcane - Argonian Magicka Necromancer - lvl 50
- EP - M - Bolgrog the Sinh - Orc Stamina Dragonknight - lvl 50
- EP - F - Moonlight Maiden - Altmer Magicka Templar - lvl 50
- EP - F - Maxine Cauline - Breton Magicka Nightblade - lvl 50
- EP - M - Garrus Loridius - Imperial Stamina Templar - lvl 50
- EP - F - Jennifer Loridius - Imperial Necromancer tank - lvl 50
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Dojohoda✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭This topic makes me think of National Lampoon's Vacation.Fan of playing magblade since 2015. (PC NA)
Might be joking in comments.
-->(((Cyrodiil)))<--0 -
Mesite✭✭✭✭I just log on, and play the game. I have no idea what level my companions are at. I never talk to them. I have no idea whether they like me or not. Mirri kills a lot of the monsters while I just walk past so she probably thinks I'm a hard taskmaster and wishes I would pull my weight.1
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kargen27✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭"With levels and especially the game items tied to them there comes the sense of being compelled to get to the maximum item level as soon as possible."
That is a player issue not a game issue.
"All active skills in the game could be available to all characters from the start. "
Personally I like that choices we make limit the skills we have available to our characters. I like that we can choose to unlock universal skills through different quest lines and I like that none are so overpowered that we need feel compelled to complete them.
Some of my characters have finished the fighters guild skill line and some have not. To me it makes sense that the characters that have not finished the line shouldn't have access to the skills.and then the parrot said, "must be the water mines green too."1 -
majulook✭✭✭✭✭
✭I do not understand....
You want to eliminate leveling by actually playing the game?
So everyone basically starts out a max level? With all skill lines available? No challenge to do anything?
Why play the game?
Si vis pacem, para bellum4 -
karekiz✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Okay this is my caffeine fueled rant for today...
I recently discovered that there is a MMO within ESO called "Room ®" In "Room®" you can quickly and effectively level up and equip your Companion and Character all by walking fifteen yards Kill ten Goblins walking back Fifteen yards Kill ten more Goblins collect loot and sell it to your Merchant when your inventory gets full.
Once your companion is leveled you then may leave "Room ®" and begin playing ESO.
I'm writing this post to demonstrate the ridiculousness of levels, the level systems serves no purpose other than be a minor annoyance and time gate for the player but thanks to "Room®" a player can bypass it all in a afternoon...so why even have it?
Say room name. Don't chicken out if your posting about it.5 -
dmnqwk✭✭✭✭✭I can't say I'm very fond of the 'I don't like X, ZOS REMOVE X' posts, because they're always selfish.
I appreciate people don't have to enjoy everything, but be like the people who go 'I'd love to pay crowns for a level 50 token' and not like the 'OMG this feature sucks so much why add it remove it now now now now now now now'.
Levelling 1 to 50 itself takes a few hours if you're capable of, then you have all the skill lines to level... That's the actual game.
If you choose to only do the story, you can be level 1 to do the entire story (barring accidental levelling from completing it of course).
The point of the game is what you make of it, and if you're only making a complaint about it... well, there are tens of thousands of others who are not.0
