Should a mythic be added for people that don't like light attack weaving?

ResidentContrarian · May 2022

No

Choosing to not do something that is part of the game should not be beneficial.

Also, that suggestion would just contribute to powercreep later and either become a mandatory item or lead to it being nerfed hard to the point it's useless.

Choucroute · May 2022

Alternative question: why do you all even care about LA weaving ?
LA weaving is for the hardcore no life end game players who want to squeeze as much damage as possible and be optimal, in both PvP and PvE.
People who don't LA weave aren't that hardcore, they're just "chilling" in the game, doing the basic content, and you don't NEED to weave for that kind of content.
You don't need to weave to clear overland, to clear a normal dungeon, a normal trial, or join a zerg in PvP.
You don't need to weave even for a lot of vet contents (let's say the mid-tier level of content), it is just that weaving would make the whole experience easier, smoother and faster thanks to the added damage. But you don't need to.

So taking that into consideration, I don't understand what your goal is. Is it to be able to join hardcore end game content without the need to weave ? Do you think you're being discriminated in joining things because you cannot weave and thus cannot give a 80-100k parse ?
But here's the thing, if you cannot weave because you're too lazy to learn it, because you have a physical disadvantage that makes it close to impossible for you to do it (or impossible without feeling pain), because you're too old and you just don't have the reflexes anymore to do this kind of things, etc., then getting rid of weaving wouldn't "fix" anything for you.
In PvP high tier it's constant movements, super quick reflexes, taking decisions instantly, in PvE high tier it's a lot of mechanics happening all at the same time, you have to pay attention to your positioning, your teammates, your uptimes, the enemies, the attacks happening around you, etc., constantly and all at the same time. If you physically or mentally struggle to do LA weaving, then you wouldn't be able to handle hardcore end game content.

I never understand people who want to get rid of LA weaving because of that.
It's either you play the game completely casually, don't care about hardcore content and then weaving shouldn't even be an issue of yours.
Or you really want to join hardcore content but you physically/mentally cannot handle LA weaving (or a strict rotation) but at this point if you cannot handle that, you wouldn't be able to handle what's going on at an end game level of trials.
Even for end game players there are things some can handle and some others cannot, and they just accept it and understand "Ah, I'll never be a Godslayer" because it's just out of their abilities.
Maybe you're like "Even if I can't do weaving, I know I'd be able to do vet DLC trials !" then try it: there are plenty of casual guilds with rather casual players who attempt vet DLC trials or seriously try to do PvP. They can't parse amazing, they can't LA weave, but they still go and attempt it. You could join those guilds.

MudcrabAttack · May 2022

Yes, but not in the way described in the post

Ultimates aren’t equal among the classes. A warden bear swipe is bearly significant compared to everything else a warden does. Nightblade already has a lot of ultimate regen, having more wouldn’t make a big difference

An overloading/ atronach dumping sorc would get way more out of it, necros would have a lot more colossus

There are already a lot of mythics that give their full effect without any light attacks

Perhaps a buff that stacks once every second since your last light attack, maxing out at 10 or 15 seconds. Using a light attack unloads X damage after reaching full stacks

Or buff every 2nd heavy attack with x damage, the problem with heavy attacks in the game is the time they add between skills

It would have to add a lot of damage to make up for the lack of light attacks + lower actions per minute + the lack of a strong buff like the kilt

Gilcroix · May 2022

Yes

d.schaerb16_ESO2 wrote: »

Gilcroix wrote: »

Because change just for the sake of change is usually bad.

then let light attacks be, embrace the status quo and get better in a basic game mechanic
The thing is, eso was always a playerskill based fight system. unlike WoW with autolightattacks and scripts/macros for rotations. Yes, in ESO someone with BiS Gear can be bad. And thats what i like, not the gearscore that makes you do more damage. You actually have to learn, train and get better.

My problem with the combat system isn't that it's hard. My problem is it's not fun.

Zezin · May 2022

No

Either just make the game auto attack or leave it as is, I enjoy LA weaving but wouldn't mind seeing it be a system function, what I don't want is another mythic with the excuse of "accessibility"(let's be honest accessibility calls for it to be implemented as a function of the game) to muck up the game with BS, if you don't want to engage in a basic components of ESO combat then you should not be rewarded with the damage it gives you. I don't like oakensoul and I would have this even more.

d.schaerb16_ESO2 · May 2022

No

Gilcroix wrote: »

My problem with the combat system isn't that it's hard. My problem is it's not fun.

for me its fun, so we agree to disagree

but what i really have to complain is, that all my magika characters have to play with dagger and sword for max dps. this is a much bigger problem i think. There is much potential for change. give us one handed wands or something. If i wanted to switch to stamina, i only have to change the points from mag to stam, you use even the same skills with mostly the same morphs ..

AdamLAD · May 2022

No

How about we bring out a mythic that plays the game for you aswell. You have to literally press one button to light attack. Its the easiest combat function in the entire game. No hate. No bashing. I understand that people are better and worse than others. But come on. Light attack weaving ????

RaptorRodeoGod · May 2022

Yes

Choucroute wrote: »

Alternative question: why do you all even care about LA weaving ?
LA weaving is for the hardcore no life end game players who want to squeeze as much damage as possible and be optimal, in both PvP and PvE.
People who don't LA weave aren't that hardcore, they're just "chilling" in the game, doing the basic content, and you don't NEED to weave for that kind of content.
You don't need to weave to clear overland, to clear a normal dungeon, a normal trial, or join a zerg in PvP.
You don't need to weave even for a lot of vet contents (let's say the mid-tier level of content), it is just that weaving would make the whole experience easier, smoother and faster thanks to the added damage. But you don't need to.

So taking that into consideration, I don't understand what your goal is. Is it to be able to join hardcore end game content without the need to weave ? Do you think you're being discriminated in joining things because you cannot weave and thus cannot give a 80-100k parse ?
But here's the thing, if you cannot weave because you're too lazy to learn it, because you have a physical disadvantage that makes it close to impossible for you to do it (or impossible without feeling pain), because you're too old and you just don't have the reflexes anymore to do this kind of things, etc., then getting rid of weaving wouldn't "fix" anything for you.
In PvP high tier it's constant movements, super quick reflexes, taking decisions instantly, in PvE high tier it's a lot of mechanics happening all at the same time, you have to pay attention to your positioning, your teammates, your uptimes, the enemies, the attacks happening around you, etc., constantly and all at the same time. If you physically or mentally struggle to do LA weaving, then you wouldn't be able to handle hardcore end game content.

I never understand people who want to get rid of LA weaving because of that.
It's either you play the game completely casually, don't care about hardcore content and then weaving shouldn't even be an issue of yours.
Or you really want to join hardcore content but you physically/mentally cannot handle LA weaving (or a strict rotation) but at this point if you cannot handle that, you wouldn't be able to handle what's going on at an end game level of trials.
Even for end game players there are things some can handle and some others cannot, and they just accept it and understand "Ah, I'll never be a Godslayer" because it's just out of their abilities.
Maybe you're like "Even if I can't do weaving, I know I'd be able to do vet DLC trials !" then try it: there are plenty of casual guilds with rather casual players who attempt vet DLC trials or seriously try to do PvP. They can't parse amazing, they can't LA weave, but they still go and attempt it. You could join those guilds.

I can somewhat weave and hit 80k+ on a dummy. My issue is that it's just not a fun part of combat for me. I'd rather just use my skills, and I bet a lot of other people feel the same way.

I understand people like their light attack weaving, so I suggested an item that makes it an option not to do it for those the don't like/can't do it.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · May 2022

No

With how high damage is these days, LA weaving is unnecessary for everything except score pushing and certain trfectas. People think that light attack weaving turns 40k parses into 100k parses and it's simply not true. On a meta parse on say my necro, 120K+, LAs are 11% of my damage. As long as you can throw in a LA or HA once in a while to build ultimate, you can easily parse north of 100k without weaving.

Pace and an effective rotation are what separate high parses from low parses. Weaving is simply icing on the cake. You cant make a piece of gear that keeps you on the one second cooldown or makes sure all your DOTs are ticking.

Make a mythic like this significant enough to move the needle and close that 10-12% gap, and you probably have the Oakensoul original problem of being too powerful in the hands of skilled players. Skilled players always use these types of things more effectively than unskilled players, even if it's targeted at the later. Less so, and people will just complain about it and declare it DOA and a wasted chapter/DLC.

Learn 2 Weave, or don't. Either way, it's not the reason someone cant pull passable DPS.

Amottica · May 2022

No

The reality is Zenimax has emphasized light attack weaving as an essential part of the unique action combat style of ESO. They even did an off-cycle test that reduced the damage of LAs and increased the damage of HAs but the community balked and Zenimax realized that this is a significant part of the game that separates it from other MMORPGs and is part of the game's success. As such it is extremely unlikely Zenimax would consider such a mythic unless it was very weak and then it would not be worth getting.

I say this as someone who thinks it would make more sense for basic attacks to scale with how long we channeled them vs the current emphasis on LAs. I just do not see Zenimax giving the suggestion any serious thought based on the logic presented.

Bat · May 2022

I wanted to add a few more thoughts about why this should not happen.

Your item's effects would have to scale off of something, right? So, max magicka pool, max stamina pool, crit or pen, or something along those lines.

What that means is you or a friend of yours can craft you full sets and that would be enough to make full or at least very easily near-full use of the item's potentials. You should see why raising the floor for people like that, wouldn't be fair to players who have invested a lot of time to build strong damage dealers.

If instead you wanted this item to scale based off of sets you're wearing, that would quite likely imply an absolute coding nightmare.

It would also be unfair to just hand such power to players for that comparatively low effort; a mythic item takes around, what, a week to complete, at most, if you actively go searching for it? Going by current standards, that is. Compare that to the grind that is farming for set items with specific bonuses; it can take several months for players who are dedicated towards end-game content, to obtain and perfect their load-out. Why should anyone come close to achieving what those of us who take the time out of our lives to work towards that, by farming merely 1 item?

I also wanted to point out that I think there are some who misconstrue what light attack weaving is, and maybe for that reason also find it more frustrating, challenging, or painful, than what it actually has to be. I have joint issues, so I don't play with keyboard+mouse, as sitting up on a desk with those in front of me for extended periods of time can quickly cause discomfort. I weave more than decent, 0.1 with staves and 0.06 with dual wield - and there is no excessive spamming involved in that, as that would quickly cause discomfort/issues. Instead, there is a rhythm to light attack weaving, which can be learned with practice. Spamming your light attack button doesn't make more sense for weaving, than not to. I did my best parse so far the other day, at 86k on the trial iron atronach dummy. What I'm saying with this is, there are so many other ways in which to light attack weave comfortably if having disabilities (controllers of various types, pedals, binding other keys on the mouse for light attacks if the LMB is too painful), that the point we should add such a mythic item for "accessibility" is moot at best. We all have personal responsibility for playing the game in a comfortable way that won't have unfavourable impacts on our well-being.

I also don't think it's gatekeeping to say it would be unfair to dedicated players, that anyone could just reach that level of damage dealer proficiency by simply digging up a single mythic item. To be perfectly honest, I think it's fair to say that implementing such an item would be a huge slap in the face to a big part of the community.

Soarora · May 2022

Yes

I've thought about this a few times actually. I don't mind weaving but that's just me and I think people should be able to play how they want-- to an extent. Especially with how I've heard HA builds are performing right now. Not being able to use sets like Kinras and Rele I think already kinda balance out this mythic idea a bit, probably not something that'd become meta. Of course, one could just not light attack with a build as-is, but I feel that leads to a feeling of missing out and being "wrong" (and probably missing out on a lot of damage). Plus, people who do have disabilities where they shouldn't be light attack weaving deserve to be able to do decent damage too, even if they are a minority.

DagenHawk · May 2022

Yes

RaptorRodeoGod wrote: »

Something like this:

You deal X% more damage. You generate 3 ultimate per second while in combat. Your light and heavy attacks no longer deal damage or restore ultimate.

The ultimate restore can share the light/heavy attack ultimate restore cooldown.

Weaving was a bad idea when it was created and a worse idea now considering that it's either ignored or grudgingly done by the vast majority of players.

They won't fix the combat so something like that is the next best thing.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · May 2022

No

You know, the more I think about it, the more I can get behind it. If they could implement it in a way that it would supplement the damage that a weave could add (and no more), and not be exploitable by someone who is already very skilled at LA weaving, it would be worth adding.

(something like: Adds X amount of damage for each skill cast towards a single target, LAs are disable, Generate ultimate at Y rate while in combat. Where X is roughly the damage of a LA based on the stats, and Y is the amount of ult LA weaving generates).

People pulling 30k on a trial dummy would now pull like 35k on a trial dummy and they would finally realize that their inability to LA weave is NOT why their damage is terrible.

Sort of like animation cancelling (which is different than weaving). ZOS should just remove it for a week, then people would realize how clunky combat is without out. Most people AC every time they block, dodge, or bar swap without even realizing they are doing it. People would be dead everywhere. It would be glorious.

MentalxHammer · May 2022

No

Absolutely not. Mythic items should promote skilled and dynamic gameplay by operating around the mechanics of the mythic, rather than dumbing down the mechanics of gameplay. Gameplay with strong and methodical use of mechanics should be rewarded, not the other way around. Just look at the controversy and imbalance around oakensoul ring, these mythics that reward low skill gameplay are just a mess to balance.

MEBengalsFan2001 · May 2022

RaptorRodeoGod wrote: »

Darkstorne wrote: »

Pretty sure that's what Belharza's Band was attempting, but the inverse of your suggestion since most casual players prefer to focus on light attacks with the odd skill mixed in, rather than skills with the odd light attack mixed in.

Malacath is also great as a flat damage boost for unoptimized builds and playstyles. Oakensoul will likely fill a similar niche.

But ultimately mythics aren't the best items to target a more casual player base with imo, and I'd like to see more regular sets boosting LA/HA playstyles like this. Maybe an overland variant of Bloodmoon, boosting light attack speed and damage at all times by 25% for example. Useless for the ceiling, great for the floor.

You make a good point about that playstyle, and I dig the set idea, especially because I miss the old werewolf light attack only playstyle 😂

However my intent for this was to be for people that prefer to only use skills, and no light attacks. And possibly to satisfy people that want animation canceling to be removed

Every MMO game that had animation cancelling that I played has had it removed. Animation cancelling is actually one of many issues that can cause major lag if enough players are doing it at the same time. Hmm.... the system has to process the damage and if you have 8 damage dealer or so in a trail and there are 100+ trial groups playing that will hit the system pretty hard. Add into any dungeon etc.. that are also being run. Than PVP etc...

People who say get good must like lag because all the other games I played, lag almost vanished after removing animation cancelling. So instead of saying get good, players should say enjoy the lag.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · May 2022

No

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

RaptorRodeoGod wrote: »

Darkstorne wrote: »

Pretty sure that's what Belharza's Band was attempting, but the inverse of your suggestion since most casual players prefer to focus on light attacks with the odd skill mixed in, rather than skills with the odd light attack mixed in.

Malacath is also great as a flat damage boost for unoptimized builds and playstyles. Oakensoul will likely fill a similar niche.

But ultimately mythics aren't the best items to target a more casual player base with imo, and I'd like to see more regular sets boosting LA/HA playstyles like this. Maybe an overland variant of Bloodmoon, boosting light attack speed and damage at all times by 25% for example. Useless for the ceiling, great for the floor.

You make a good point about that playstyle, and I dig the set idea, especially because I miss the old werewolf light attack only playstyle 😂

However my intent for this was to be for people that prefer to only use skills, and no light attacks. And possibly to satisfy people that want animation canceling to be removed

Every MMO game that had animation cancelling that I played has had it removed. Animation cancelling is actually one of many issues that can cause major lag if enough players are doing it at the same time. Hmm.... the system has to process the damage and if you have 8 damage dealer or so in a trail and there are 100+ trial groups playing that will hit the system pretty hard. Add into any dungeon etc.. that are also being run. Than PVP etc...

People who say get good must like lag because all the other games I played, lag almost vanished after removing animation cancelling. So instead of saying get good, players should say enjoy the lag.

Vague statement without specific examples, and I don't believe a word of it. Animation canceling doesn't do anything to increase server load. You are still bound to the one second global cooldown. Remove animation canceling and what you are left with is clunky bar swaps and the inability to react to damage. People AC almost every time they dodge or block, and most do it to some degree when they bar swap.

Also, LA weaving is NOT animation canceling They even changed animations at one point to be sure you see the LA fire when you weave, which it does.

SeaGtGruff · May 2022

ResidentContrarian wrote: »

Choosing to not do something that is part of the game should not be beneficial.

There are many, many things in the game-- many activities, many skills, many gear sets, many weapon types and styles of fighting, many combinations of race and class, etc. There are usually benefits and drawbacks to just about anything in the game, and each player chooses which of these things they want to do/use and want to not do/use all the time, based on various factors-- their personal likes and dislikes, weighing any benefits against any drawbacks, balancing the costs in time and effort against the rewards or pleasure received, etc.

Taking your statement in its most general sense, I respectfully disagree. For example, attacking the unkillable guards is part of the game, so it makes no sense to me to suggest that choosing to not attack the unkillable guards should not be beneficial.

And taking your statement in the much more specific sense in which I'm guessing you intended it-- that light attack weaving is part of the game, and that choosing to not use light attack weaving should not be beneficial-- I also respectfully disagree. For one thing, I don't think that light attack weaving should be required in any way, shape, or form, just as no other particular type of fighting style should be required. Each fighting style should have advantages and disadvantages, benefits and drawbacks, such that choosing to use it can give you some benefit, and choosing to not use it can also give you some other benefit. This keeps the game more interesting and alive, allowing for greater flexibility and variety of playstyles and character builds.

Note, as far as the OP's suggestion, I have no particular preference; I can take it or leave it.

Ksariyu · May 2022

No

HerrKeinTipp_MrNoTip wrote: »

There's nothing wrong with trying to 'gatekeep' changes you disagree with! But don't pretend that's not the reason you're sharing your opinion in the first place!

Really stretching the definition of "gatekeeping" here. The OP asked for an opinion. I gave him one. That's all.

d.schaerb16_ESO2 wrote: »

then let light attacks be, embrace the status quo and get better in a basic game mechanic
The thing is, eso was always a playerskill based fight system. unlike WoW with autolightattacks and scripts/macros for rotations. Yes, in ESO someone with BiS Gear can be bad. And thats what i like, not the gearscore that makes you do more damage. You actually have to learn, train and get better.
The real skills gap is cpm, nobody with 50 cpm can do as much damage as someone with 120. And nothing can fix this expect the player. If you can press fast and precise enough buttons, lightattacks are no problem. If you smash keys in random speed, dont expect to do top dps

So why is LA weaving the ONLY rotational skill to learn then? Why is that the ONLY pattern that exists? There are theoretically tons of ways the game could promote different playstyles and potentially even make combat faster, so why stick everyone with something that a lot of people dislike?
As far as APMs, there's more to skill than speed.
(Also LA weaving is not a basic mechanic. It's a bug that the dev team purposely kept, and even among the community it's considered more of an advanced mechanic, as opposed to the actual basics of attacks, skills, dodging, etc.).

Choucroute wrote: »

Alternative question: why do you all even care about LA weaving?

Super simple answer. It's boring. It doesn't matter what class I pick or what weapon I use, as long as I know how to weave I can swap to literally any setup and be equally effective. I'd much rather have options, even if one of them will always be LA weaving.

MorganaBlue · May 2022

No

you forgot the "git gud" option

Learn the game, people. LA weaving is an integral part of it. If you are a damage dealer, learn how to deal damage. It's that simple.

Jaraal · May 2022

RaptorRodeoGod wrote: »

Should a mythic be added for people that don't like light attack weaving?

Well, if they do that, then they should probably add a mythic for people who don't like blocking, either.

Oh, wait.....

Bat · May 2022

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Also, LA weaving is NOT animation canceling They even changed animations at one point to be sure you see the LA fire when you weave, which it does.

That's just entirely wrong. LA weaving is literally cancelling the animations of light attacks so that animations from abilities weave into them. They reworked how animations on abilities work a while back, and after that rework a big chunk of animations that previously were easy to cancel, are now either not easy to cancel, or can not be cancelled. This is the reason why people grunt and groan a heck lot more around you these days than when animations from abilities could be cancelled by for example block very easily, because those animations a lot more often play out in full and allow for the accompanying sound to also be played out properly when their queue in the animation comes.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · May 2022

No

Bat wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Also, LA weaving is NOT animation canceling They even changed animations at one point to be sure you see the LA fire when you weave, which it does.

That's just entirely wrong. LA weaving is literally cancelling the animations of light attacks so that animations from abilities weave into them. They reworked how animations on abilities work a while back, and after that rework a big chunk of animations that previously were easy to cancel, are now either not easy to cancel, or can not be cancelled. This is the reason why people grunt and groan a heck lot more around you these days than when animations from abilities could be cancelled by for example block very easily, because those animations a lot more often play out in full and allow for the accompanying sound to also be played out properly when their queue in the animation comes.

I see my light attacks fire every time I weave, and I weave at a pace of about .93/sec. My staff goes forward, the fire ball shoots, and as my staff retracts, the skill animation begins. It is very smooth and fluid. Its called weaving because you are layering LAs and Skills, as they have separate cooldowns, so you can weave both on the 1 second GCD pace. Only time I see animations clipped are when I swap cancel a skill, block cancel a skill, or roll cancel a skill. Skill animations do get clipped in those scenarios.

While perhaps not ideal from an immersion standpoint, if you couldnt do that, it would severly limit your ability to react to damage if you had to wait for an annimation to play before you could react defensively with a dodge or block. In terms of swap canceling, if you couldn't do it, you couldn't maintain pace with the GCD after bar swaps. Its a good tradeoff in both scenarios.

A long while back, it used to be more choppy. The LA animations on a weave that was close to the GCD pace would often appear not to fire, even though they were. That is no longer the case, unless your ping is really high, but that is really more of an issue with high ping or pour FPS than Animation Canceling.

Bat · May 2022

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

I see my light attacks fire every time I weave, and I weave at a pace of about .93/sec. My staff goes forward, the fire ball shoots, and as my staff retracts, the skill animation begins. It is very smooth and fluid. Its called weaving because you are layering LAs and Skills, as they have separate cooldowns, so you can weave both on the 1 second GCD pace. Only time I see animations clipped are when I swap cancel a skill, block cancel a skill, or roll cancel a skill. Skill animations do get clipped in those scenarios.

While perhaps not ideal from an immersion standpoint, if you couldnt do that, it would severly limit your ability to react to damage if you had to wait for an annimation to play before you could react defensively with a dodge or block. In terms of swap canceling, if you couldn't do it, you couldn't maintain pace with the GCD after bar swaps. Its a good tradeoff in both scenarios.

A long while back, it used to be more choppy. The LA animations on a weave that was close to the GCD pace would often appear not to fire, even though they were. That is no longer the case, unless your ping is really high, but that is really more of an issue with high ping or pour FPS than Animation Canceling.

Well, yeah, you've always been able to see the light attacks of staves go off, there is a visual clue for all properly fired off staff light attacks, even if they are animation cancelled. The animation cancelling is the entire thing - you mention that you see your staff move forward and that it then retracts before you start an ability animation, and that your weave is at close to one full second - that's the part you cancel the animation for in a weave. Cancelling LA animations is what gives you a lower weave score the sooner into the LA animation you cancel it. The better your weaves are, the less of that "staff going forward and retracting" animation you will see - which doesn't mean your LA isn't firing, it just means that you'll make room for more APM. The best staff weaves will look almost like they entirely just skip the animation for the LA attack altogether. My weave scores for staves average around 0.1, for dual wield it's better for some reason at an approximate 0.06 weave, likely since I use a controller where I never bothered unmapping the weapon firing (they're on right triggers by default), I'm sure people playing with KB+M will have even lower numbers for their weaves than so.

The rework they did with animations not too long ago, didn't affect LA animation cancelling, it affected the ability animation cancelling that specifically used to be ubiquitously cancelled by tapping block immediately after an ability. People used to do that in order to more accurately be able to see their next LAs, which they wanted to cancel the animation for, fire off, so that they could more easily see them happening. The reason for their rework of this was, they stated, that that form of animation cancelling put a lot of stress on server calculations - unnecessarily, according to them, since the abilities are all on a GCD anyway. They reworked it so that most ability animations can not be cancelled as reliably as they used to be able to be cancelled by the use of block immediately after an ability was activated. Of course they would still allow for bar swaps and roll dodges since these are fundamental functions that should not be locked down from having an ability animation happening.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · May 2022

No

Ksariyu wrote: »

HerrKeinTipp_MrNoTip wrote: »

There's nothing wrong with trying to 'gatekeep' changes you disagree with! But don't pretend that's not the reason you're sharing your opinion in the first place!

Really stretching the definition of "gatekeeping" here. The OP asked for an opinion. I gave him one. That's all.

d.schaerb16_ESO2 wrote: »

then let light attacks be, embrace the status quo and get better in a basic game mechanic
The thing is, eso was always a playerskill based fight system. unlike WoW with autolightattacks and scripts/macros for rotations. Yes, in ESO someone with BiS Gear can be bad. And thats what i like, not the gearscore that makes you do more damage. You actually have to learn, train and get better.
The real skills gap is cpm, nobody with 50 cpm can do as much damage as someone with 120. And nothing can fix this expect the player. If you can press fast and precise enough buttons, lightattacks are no problem. If you smash keys in random speed, dont expect to do top dps

So why is LA weaving the ONLY rotational skill to learn then? Why is that the ONLY pattern that exists? There are theoretically tons of ways the game could promote different playstyles and potentially even make combat faster, so why stick everyone with something that a lot of people dislike?
As far as APMs, there's more to skill than speed.
(Also LA weaving is not a basic mechanic. It's a bug that the dev team purposely kept, and even among the community it's considered more of an advanced mechanic, as opposed to the actual basics of attacks, skills, dodging, etc.).

Choucroute wrote: »

Alternative question: why do you all even care about LA weaving?

Super simple answer. It's boring. It doesn't matter what class I pick or what weapon I use, as long as I know how to weave I can swap to literally any setup and be equally effective. I'd much rather have options, even if one of them will always be LA weaving.

Um its not. And that is the misconception that so many people have about weaving and how it impacts damage. There are lots of skill sets to a high end DPS parse, LA weaving is one of them, but it is neither the most difficult nor the most important. In order of difficulty, I would say it goes something like this:

1. Far and away the hardest part of a high end DPS parse is maintaining your Pace as close to the one second global cooldown as possible, without going over. I look at a LOT of parses trying to help people. They copy a build, use a static rotation and perform it very well, only miss a handful of LAs, and only pull 70k when the YouTube guy is pulling 120k and wonder why. Well they are on a pace of 0.6-0.7 skills per second, just about every time.

2. Managing a rotation. This is also rather difficult. For the most part, Rotations can be static (repetitive), Dynamic (cast whatever is next off cooldown) or semi static (some parts are repetitive, others aren't). Usually, dynamic rotation are tougher, but not always. For example, I think my dynamic sorc rotation actually plays easier than my static necro rotation, but thats because my static necro rotation is 30 seconds long and takes 14 bar swaps per 30 seconds. Which brings me to the next part.

3. Swap cancelling. This is really they only part of a high end parse that involves animation canceling. This goes hand and hand with number 1, as this is one of the biggest culprits for slow pace. This one takes a lot of practice, and personally, I think it is one of the toughest things about either a dynamic rotation or a static rotation like necro with a lot of swaps. Different skills need to be swap cancelled at slightly different paces, and some skills cant be swap cancelled off of (sweeps, hard cast frags, etc). Being able to manage that on the fly takes a lot of skill.

If you do 1-3 well, you can break 100k in the current meta, and notice, LA weaving hasnt been mentioned yet.

4. LA weaving. This adds roughly 10-13% damage on the extreme end of things. For most people, its less. Significant, but not the difference between someone parsing 50k vs. 120k. It is difficult in the sense that it doubles your APMs, but the half it adds are very predictable. The other half (from 1-3) are not always predictable, and they are where the real skill comes into play. Absolutely it takes practice, but its not nearly as big a piece of the puzzle as most people think.

-Call it a bug if you want, but I think more accurately, it was an unintended consequence of giving LAs and Skills separate cooldowns. People figured this out very early, realized it was pretty freaking cool, and ZOS has doubled down on it time and again. It aint going anywhere, nor should it. I love that as a master swordsman i can sprinkle in light attacks with my blade between my more powerful abilities. Seems to fit very well from a lore standpoint, and makes combat fast paced and fun.

5. Managing things like ultimates, potions, etc. This isnt terribly hard, but people still get it wrong. Keeping your potions up (outside the GCD) every 45 seconds, and casting your ulitmate is a skill. Some Ults like Incap Strike, is very difficult to use effectively. It needs to be cast frequently, and you also want to time so you are casting spam skills to follow. Ults like DK standard or meteor are much easier to deal with.

6. Openings and Execute. These come in last place for me. Usually both break number 2 to some degree. They arent the difference between 60-120k, but they can certainly be the difference between 110-120k. Knowing how to open, and what skills to drop at what percent health is certainly a skill, and once that can vary greatly from class to class.

Point is, most people copy a build, dont get the results of the guys on youtube, and blame weaving. When in reality, it's a very small piece of the pie.

WynnGwynn · May 2022

Yes, but not in the way described in the post

I weave and I just think it was never intended the way it is implemented and looks....bad. Your character stutters and looks like the game is glitching. I don't think they could make a mythic be on par with weaving but if they could and you could look good doing it (not stutter around like a fool) I might be interested just so I wouldn't look like a glitch.

Merforum · May 2022

Yes, but not in the way described in the post

Jaraal wrote: »

RaptorRodeoGod wrote: »

Should a mythic be added for people that don't like light attack weaving?

Well, if they do that, then they should probably add a mythic for people who don't like blocking, either.

Oh, wait.....

Yeah and by that logic they would never have a mythic that changes roll dodge....

Oh, wait....................

Mythic for people who don't like block, don't like dodge, don't like swap........question is NOT 'should' there be a mythic for people who don't like LA Weave/AC/exploit whatever you want to call it, but WHEN. I actually think it would be the perfect compliment to OAKEN... to have it put LA on same GCD too, then they could add some flat stats since it couldn't be abused.

BTW contrary to the vocal minority LA 'weave' ADDS a ton more than just 10-15% DPS, that is JUST the LA part of the equation. It doesn't count that a perfect weave gives 10 LA AND 10 skills in 10 secs, without it you only get 5la+5skill or 1la+9skill, which is WAY LESS potential damage. Also every super high parse is using LA based proc sets like rele, which explodes DPS with more LAs. And let's remember the timings on the AOEs/buffs that can be optimized when you can get close to 10la+10 skill per 10 sec, where with a slower rotation you will have much lower uptime on AOEs or less spammables in between (the difference is staggering). Even the people who say LA AC doesn't add much to damage will tell others who they are trying to teach the this too that if they go from 5la + 10 skills (because they miss 5 weaves) that if they can improve on that they can go from 90K to 120K HELLO just with a few more weaves you get massive bump. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to know this is a broken mechanic, that significantly contribute to the power creep.

WrathOfInnos · May 2022

Yes

I like Light Attack weaving, but a set like this could be nice for other players. I'd make it a stacking buff, that is lost when you light attack (much like Thrassian Stranglers, which is lost on death or sneak). Something like:

Dealing damage to an enemy grants a stack of Ability Focus for 60 seconds, increasing weapon and spell damage by 200. This effect may occur every 1s and stack up to 5 times. Dealing damage with a light attack removes all stacks.

Then it is a 5s buildup to 1000 Weapon and Spell Damage, which is roughly 11% DPS (in exchange for a 5pc set or mythic and all weaving damage) and should close the gap with light attack builds without exceeding their damage.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · May 2022

No

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

I like Light Attack weaving, but a set like this could be nice for other players. I'd make it a stacking buff, that is lost when you light attack (much like Thrassian Stranglers, which is lost on death or sneak). Something like:

Dealing damage to an enemy grants a stack of Ability Focus for 60 seconds, increasing weapon and spell damage by 200. This effect may occur every 1s and stack up to 5 times. Dealing damage with a light attack removes all stacks.

Then it is a 5s buildup to 1000 Weapon and Spell Damage, which is roughly 11% DPS (in exchange for a 5pc set or mythic and all weaving damage) and should close the gap with light attack builds without exceeding their damage.

I could get on bored with that. I think the balance would be just about right in PVE. I could see scenarios where it might be a touch strong in PVP, as weaving is not always quite as consistent in that environment, but considering you are giving up a mythic, it would probably be okay. You might need to do something about ulti regen in the tooltip as well.

Merforum · May 2022

Yes, but not in the way described in the post

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

I like Light Attack weaving, but a set like this could be nice for other players. I'd make it a stacking buff, that is lost when you light attack (much like Thrassian Stranglers, which is lost on death or sneak). Something like:

Dealing damage to an enemy grants a stack of Ability Focus for 60 seconds, increasing weapon and spell damage by 200. This effect may occur every 1s and stack up to 5 times. Dealing damage with a light attack removes all stacks.

Then it is a 5s buildup to 1000 Weapon and Spell Damage, which is roughly 11% DPS (in exchange for a 5pc set or mythic and all weaving damage) and should close the gap with light attack builds without exceeding their damage.

That is a decent idea but you would have to have a mythic that automatically did a LA before every skill to see what the REAL impact of this was. Since everyone likes to claiming it is only 15% while conveniently ignoring the COMPOUND effect.