Could we get a polite negative reaction for the forums? (ZOS?)

HerrKeinTipp_MrNoTip · May 2022

Currently our forum reactions are limited to "Agree", "Insightful", and "Awesome".

While I can totally imagine and appreciate why ZOS do not want to create a mini-reddit downvote system here, the current options provide players with the option of providing a positive reaction, going to the effort of writing up a negative reaction or letting it slide and becoming considered part of a silent majority.

So if Reddit is no good for a friendly, cohesive community environment that acknowledges its members have differing views without descending into the potential destruction of its contributors....let's look at Facebook...i am in no way saying facebook is anything close to a model to follow overall, but their 'sad' and 'angry' reactions allow people to respond in the negative without becoming aggressive or offensive and without adding to bullying by default (which is what reddit downvotes definitely do a lot of the time).

So why can't we please add a "Disagree" or similar reaction? This would allow less confident people to have their voice heard in some way. It would allow people to show their opinion without clogging up the thread with a brand new post saying the same thing others did.

I know this stuff isn't the end of the world, but the lack of a polite but clear negative reaction (and I truly do believe this is possible) actually invalidates the three positive reactions we have currently. If some of the community can't react in the other direction, the three positives in no way represent fair slice of the community reaction....yet they are presented this way.

Lugaldu · May 2022

There will probably be enough people who "disagree" simply because the option is there. If you really want a fruitful discussion that includes a contrary opinion, then this will not be achieved with a smiley, but only by writing your own opinion.

HerrKeinTipp_MrNoTip · May 2022

Lugaldu wrote: »

There will probably be enough people who "disagree" simply because the option is there. If you really want a fruitful discussion that includes a contrary opinion, then this will not be achieved with a smiley, but only by writing your own opinion.

Fair enough. In my mind if those people disagree when it's there as an option are telling us something, even if they haven't spent the time to construct an eloquent reply telling us that. But to each their own. You already have three agrees with your side of the coin. I am not sure about my side, because it's definitely not important enough to spend the effort on a true post to most people haha.

Edit: I mean....polls kinda do what I am asking for IF the OP thinks to set it up/if their post is easily pollable. I have seen some polls in recent weeks that haven't turned into a 'nahfest' like you suggest...and people still expand on their poll response if they have something to add.... but don't waste space if they don''t have more to add, only agree with what's been said?

Danikat · May 2022

I disagree.

HerrKeinTipp_MrNoTip · May 2022

Danikat wrote: »

I disagree.

I'll pretend I have no ability to detect light hearted trolling and sarcasm in aid of my proposal...

With all the focus on server-side efficiencies like AWA and instance, wouldn't it be grand if you could have expressed that without creating pointless noise in the thread that could have been communicated via a passive and non-disruptive reaction?

Danikat · May 2022

HerrKeinTipp_MrNoTip wrote: »

Danikat wrote: »

I disagree.

I'll pretend I have no ability to detect light hearted trolling and sarcasm in aid of my proposal...

With all the focus on server-side efficiencies like AWA and instance, wouldn't it be grand if you could have expressed that without creating pointless noise in the thread that could have been communicated via a passive and non-disruptive reaction?

Or I could have written an actual post which contributes to the discussion. A disagree button is just encouraging that sort of pointless noise rather than any actual discussion of the topic.

Which is exactly why I'm against the idea. I've used forums with a disagree button before and never found it useful. Unless the post in question is a very simple statement presented as fact a simple disagree or negative reaction is too vague to be meaningful.

If someone says "bows are the best weapon" and someone disagrees that's one thing. But if the post goes on to elaborate why they think bows are superior to other weapons, which skills and builds work well and the situations where they offer an advantage and the response is still 'I disagree' then it's much harder to draw any useful information from it. Do they disagree with the entire premise, or the specific build/s suggested? Do they think other weapons can achieve the same thing, or that what it's doing is unnecessary and it would be better to focus on something else entirely? And that's still a relatively simple example.

If someone posts a suggestion and people who disagree with it don't elaborate on why then there's no opportunity to build on that feedback to improve the suggestion and therefore almost no chance of getting to the point where there's any consensus on the idea.

proprio.meb16_ESO · May 2022

This was asked pretty recently.
Despite politeness it will be used in the wrong way and will have the effect of intimidating people into discussing, shutting up people with numbers, and help weirdos to feel more martyr than they usually do.

Ideally it would be good, in reality it would most probably be abused and create an unnecessary issue.

HerrKeinTipp_MrNoTip · May 2022

Danikat wrote: »

Or I could have written an actual post which contributes to the discussion.

LOL Ok you're serious? In that case, you saying "I disagree" and nothing more is a perfect exemplar of why this would be beneficial. Those two words, with no rationale or justification, contributed little to nothing....certainly no more than a reaction would have contributed - that is 100% undeniable because you literally typed out what the reaction text might be.

Your argument; "the only valid contributions come from those who engage in actual discussion on the topic" falls over completely when you used your first post in this thread to do the exact opposite....it sounds like you had a legitimate opinion on this idea....and you expressed that opinion with absolutely no further contribution (until your second post here). You did create noise for no value where an alternate channel might have existed.

Sylvermynx · May 2022

I understand that this forum used to have an "LOL" icon. After a while it was removed. That was before I landed here; perhaps someone who was here at that time can elaborate on why it was removed.

Another forum I used to use regularly had something similar, which also got removed - the explanation there was that people were misusing it to ridicule ideas and posters.

Maitsukas · May 2022

If you go to the following forum page, you'll notice that there are badges for now removed reactions:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/badges/

The reactions that are listed there:

Like (last earned by an user in November 2013)
LOL (last earned by an user in February 2015)
Up Vote (never earned by anyone)

HerrKeinTipp_MrNoTip · May 2022

proprio.meb16_ESO wrote: »

This was asked pretty recently.
Despite politeness it will be used in the wrong way and will have the effect of intimidating people into discussing, shutting up people with numbers, and help weirdos to feel more martyr than they usually do.

Ideally it would be good, in reality it would most probably be abused and create an unnecessary issue.

I didn't see the thread, and did try a search but maybe my keywords were wrong.

Your concerns are mine, too. I guess I feel that the current forums are already geared against this downside if a negative were implemented. You don't even see the reactions unless you hover over a particular reply. They don't contribute to rankings unlike reddit.

Maybe limiting them to responses and in-thread visibility rather than appearing on the main list of threads would also help mitigate the trollish downsides?

DaiKahn · May 2022

Sylvermynx wrote: »

I understand that this forum used to have an "LOL" icon. After a while it was removed. That was before I landed here; perhaps someone who was here at that time can elaborate on why it was removed.

Another forum I used to use regularly had something similar, which also got removed - the explanation there was that people were misusing it to ridicule ideas and posters.

It was removed because some people got their feelings hurt due to too many people LOL'ing at their posts. This in turn apparently made them not want to post (or complain about the feature, can't remember)

So yes, pretty much as you describe with the other forum

Sylvermynx · May 2022

DaiKahn wrote: »

Sylvermynx wrote: »

I understand that this forum used to have an "LOL" icon. After a while it was removed. That was before I landed here; perhaps someone who was here at that time can elaborate on why it was removed.

Another forum I used to use regularly had something similar, which also got removed - the explanation there was that people were misusing it to ridicule ideas and posters.

It was removed because some people got their feelings hurt due to too many people LOL'ing at their posts. This in turn apparently made them not want to post (or complain about the feature, can't remember)

So yes, pretty much as you describe with the other forum

Thanks for the info - I've wondered if that was it ever since someone posted way back shortly after I arrived (June 2018) that they really missed the LOL button!

Hope things are going well for you! *waves as I head off to get in game*

proprio.meb16_ESO · May 2022

HerrKeinTipp_MrNoTip wrote: »

I didn't see the thread, and did try a search but maybe my keywords were wrong.

Your concerns are mine, too. I guess I feel that the current forums are already geared against this downside if a negative were implemented. You don't even see the reactions unless you hover over a particular reply. They don't contribute to rankings unlike reddit.

Maybe limiting them to responses and in-thread visibility rather than appearing on the main list of threads would also help mitigate the trollish downsides?

It was a poll at the end of March... surely not a big discussion: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7556903

I've seen err read enough "we vs. them" threads and any kind of super egocentric responses here to be optimistic about such a feature... i'm inclined to think implementing it would definitely not have a good outcome, despite good intention.

Tomboski · May 2022

OP is onto something here. Brevity, while not always the best policy, does have its merits. The sheer volume of threads that have degenerated into five-heads hopelessly trying to explain why they believe that they're the smartest person in the room is simply astonishing.

Nemeliom · May 2022

The problem is the crystal generation. People getting offended for everything is destroying free speach. Not liking something used to be an option, but sensibility is now the rule.

Redguards_Revenge · May 2022

I think it was called LOL or laugh or funny, but ZoS removed it.

wenchmore420b14_ESO · May 2022

Redguards_Revenge wrote: »

I think it was called LOL or laugh or funny, but ZoS removed it.

I was "LOL". I have the badge and got 5 LOL's before it was removed.
The idea of a "Disagree" button has been brought up many times, but the possibility of it being used to troll people was the main reason, IIRC, it was not implemented.
Huzzah!

chattygeekHD · May 2022

What about a "Curious?" button.

It would maybe give the opportunity for the reader to note that they think differently, or that the poster's words don't necessarily resonate with the reader - but without the negativity.

SilverBride · May 2022

A disagree button would be way too easy to abuse. There is really no need for it anyway because posters can and do comment when they disagree with a suggestion.

Freelancer_ESO · May 2022

You already see posts on reddit from time to time trying to draw people onto the forums to come disagree with posters on forums. If you add negative reactions it will only get worse as that requires less effort.

You'd also hit the issue with people using multiple accounts to attempt to manipulate the results if they feel the results are actually being taken really seriously.

Keep in mind that only 161, 343 accounts have ever posted on forums that's a small fraction of the game overall population and most of those accounts are not active posters.

Most of us when we were new to playing a game/back to playing a game got really excited at some point and went to post on a gaming forum only to get either downvotes or disagree with no response. Sure, some/most of our ideas might have been stupid but, it's incredibly aggravating to just get marked down without a response.

HerrKeinTipp_MrNoTip · May 2022

chattygeekHD wrote: »

What about a "Curious?" button.

It would maybe give the opportunity for the reader to note that they think differently, or that the poster's words don't necessarily resonate with the reader - but without the negativity.

I like this...as yet another option among maybe half a dozen or so.

HerrKeinTipp_MrNoTip · May 2022

chessalavakia_ESO wrote: »

Keep in mind that only 161, 343 accounts have ever posted on forums that's a small fraction of the game overall population and most of those accounts are not active posters.

I don't know if I am unique here, but as someone who signed up in 2014 and rejoined mid last year, I had no forum account....I can't sign up as its supposed to be part of my account on creation. I finally pulled my finger out and contacted support and they fixed me up a couple weeks ago.

I am not suggesting this issue, if common, explains the low relative population...but maybe an easier way to sign up or a check for disconnected accounts could help people engage more. I definitely wanted to reply to this thread or that for months now...it was just finding the time to talk to support to get it happening.

HerrKeinTipp_MrNoTip · May 2022

SilverBride wrote: »

A disagree button would be way too easy to abuse. There is really no need for it anyway because posters can and do comment when they disagree with a suggestion.

Yep. This works. I am just suggesting it could work better.

People who care enough are sometimes/often cloggin the thread up with a post that does nothing more than echo the opinion of others.

Others might want to express, but CBF writing a post...so they return to the silent masses and whoever 'wins' the argument (as if you can!) will claim them into the silent majority.

It could be better, is all I am suggesting.

HerrKeinTipp_MrNoTip · May 2022

Very interesting dialogue here, friends. I was expecting about this level of disagreement, but it's cool to hear the reasons why.

I still disagree and feel I have a logical counter to most of what I am seeing here...but I also recognise that this is a game with a very low tolerance to potentially perceived bullying/bigotry etc etc whatever...and so the fear of dislike button bullying makes a lot of sense.

For the record on "perceived bullying/bigotry etc etc whatever..."...I am one of the last people to say that being 'woke' has gone too far. I will go to war with any homophobe or racist on zone, guild chat, this forum..whatever.,. ...and the same other small-minded silliness if someone wants to find a niche way to be a bigot coz homophobia isn't edgy enough anymore or whatever.

..but from this lens I was forced to change my name earlier this year...apparently my user name and the last part of my forum username here, Mr No Tip was transphobic. It couldn't be further from, but I do see how it could be perceived that way briefly...but the fact is that is incorrect. Anyone who is anyone knows anything knows that it's all about when Mr Burns dated Marge's mum:

So why am I derailing my own thread with a rant about a forced name change for the wrong reasons? ...I am not trying to do that....I am just agreeing with those who disagree with me. (a totally fresh and innovative way to derail my own threads!)

While I think we COULD and SHOULD have a dislike react or similar, I get why we don't, and I get why we don't because of the current ZOS complaint/pastoral care strategies. I still maintain that we should be able to do better than that...but acknowledge we can't or won't.

Even if this post was mostly borne from filling in boredom during patching, and even most of us agree this won't happen for...reasons....I've enjoyed the debate.

DagenHawk · May 2022

It would be abused and exploited

We can never have nicer things because people in general are horrible.

BretonMage · May 2022

HerrKeinTipp_MrNoTip wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

A disagree button would be way too easy to abuse. There is really no need for it anyway because posters can and do comment when they disagree with a suggestion.

Yep. This works. I am just suggesting it could work better.

People who care enough are sometimes/often cloggin the thread up with a post that does nothing more than echo the opinion of others.

That happens with both agreements and disagreements, and a person expressing their view is not clogging up anything. In any case, what usually happens is that someone will disagree with a post, and people will agree with their disagreement, which is effectively your disagree button.

spartaxoxo · May 2022

A disagree button adds nothing constructive to the conversation

RisenEclipse · May 2022

This has been asked before. A disagree button would not add anything at all. So I would rather not have one here.

VaranisArano · May 2022

I prefer to actually write out my reasons for disagreeing with someone in the hopes that even if they don't change their mind, the Devs who lurk on the forums will at least know why I have concerns about the idea. I've seen a couple topics where one side was very vocal in support of something, and the other side didn't argue back in detail (if they did, it was along the lines of "I disagree") and then were shocked when ZOS implemented the idea with vocal support.

Furthermore, I prefer to learn from the posts where someone disagrees with me, rather than simply seeing that they've pushed a button to register their disagreement. I like hearing why others disagree with me, and I've changed my approach to various topics over time because of discussions with other players. If they simple hit the disagree button or downvote, I would learn nothing. It gives me no reason to change my mind. "This is an unpopular opinion" is nowhere near as convincing as "This is a bad idea because X, Y, and Z" or "Have you thought about this?"

If ZOS merely wants to know how popular/unpopular an idea is, they can set up their own poll. They recently did with the surprise Explorer's Celebration, in fact, and if you take a look at that poll, you'll see that lots of voters on both sides further qualified and explained their votes in later posts, since simple yes/no or agree/disagree answers are not particularly informative.

Poll: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/600401/do-you-like-having-surprise-in-game-events/p1

Tommy_The_Gun · May 2022

There is an option to disagree... you just don't hit the "Agree" button...