Maintenance for the week of December 23:
· [COMPLETE] NA megaservers for maintenance – December 23, 4:00AM EST (9:00 UTC) - 9:00AM EST (14:00 UTC)
· [COMPLETE] EU megaservers for maintenance – December 23, 9:00 UTC (4:00AM EST) - 14:00 UTC (9:00AM EST)
· [COMPLETE] NA megaservers for maintenance – December 23, 4:00AM EST (9:00 UTC) - 9:00AM EST (14:00 UTC)
· [COMPLETE] EU megaservers for maintenance – December 23, 9:00 UTC (4:00AM EST) - 14:00 UTC (9:00AM EST)
Oakensoul mythic change in patch 8.0.2
Patro
✭✭✭
I agree with the idea that this mythic as it was in patch 8.0.0 would be too strong for werewolves but with the current changes this item becomes really useless. §
Wouldn't it have been better to have this item's bonuses inactive when a player is transformed?
Wouldn't it have been better to have this item's bonuses inactive when a player is transformed?
3
-
Yarcanine✭✭✭I agree with the idea that this mythic as it was in patch 8.0.0 would be too strong for werewolves but with the current changes this item becomes really useless. §
Wouldn't it have been better to have this item's bonuses inactive when a player is transformed?
There are multiple threads discussing this, making the item useless on werewolves is not the answer. A good suggestion to a fix in another post:
(1 item) Adds 400 Weapon and Spell Damage
(1 item) Adds 3737 Maximum Health
(1 item) Adds 3737 Maximum Magicka
(1 item) Adds 3737 Maximum Stamina
(1 item) Gain Major Sorcery, Major Brutality, Major Resolve, Major Expedition, Major Evasion, Major Prophecy, Major Savagery, and Minor Force at all times.
While equipped, you are unable to swap between your Primary and Backup Weapon Sets
I think this is the best solution to have the mythic be useful in all content without it being too powerful on werewolves as they already have many of the buffs built in to their kit so they won't benefit twice.Edited by Yarcanine on May 5, 2022 6:00PM3 -
haelgaan✭✭✭✭✭simplest solution was to make it not applicable to a transformed player. giving buffs that you can get from a pot or other skill that likely was otherwise already on your bar is useless.
what a waste of a nice idea, and a slap in the face for everyone that was counting on it for accessibility.0 -
Vylaera✭✭✭✭✭
✭simplest solution was to make it not applicable to a transformed player. giving buffs that you can get from a pot or other skill that likely was otherwise already on your bar is useless.
what a waste of a nice idea, and a slap in the face for everyone that was counting on it for accessibility.
But if you don't have to use those buff abilities anymore then you can go all in on the highest damage abilities. Buffs is a good route. Initially I was apprehensive but if they make my suggested tweaks then it would be in a really good spot.
Like others have said, making it useless on werewolf isn't a fix.Vy • lae • ra | Fan of all things Vampiric | PC NA | Accurate World Map artist | Immaculate Reshade author2 -
ccfeeling✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭If WW still can able to keep WW form forever , they should not allow to use this mythic item , too OP .
2 -
Lazuli✭✭✭Better solutions to address the dev's comments on the nerf:
1- For the "power spike with Werewolf" comment: add a Werewolf stipulation that cuts the original stats in half while transformed
2- For the "how close many one-bar builds are to two-bar builds" comment: Slightly reduce the original stats by a bit (like back on week 1 PTS or even slightly less), one-bar DPS would never top 2-bar builds with that change.1 -
Patro✭✭✭BroughBreaux wrote: »simplest solution was to make it not applicable to a transformed player. giving buffs that you can get from a pot or other skill that likely was otherwise already on your bar is useless.
what a waste of a nice idea, and a slap in the face for everyone that was counting on it for accessibility.
But if you don't have to use those buff abilities anymore then you can go all in on the highest damage abilities. Buffs is a good route. Initially I was apprehensive but if they make my suggested tweaks then it would be in a really good spot.
Like others have said, making it useless on werewolf isn't a fix.
You can get most of those buffs from class skills, there is no point in giving up the second bar for bonus you already can have.Edited by Patro on May 6, 2022 12:17PM0 -
Yarcanine✭✭✭BroughBreaux wrote: »simplest solution was to make it not applicable to a transformed player. giving buffs that you can get from a pot or other skill that likely was otherwise already on your bar is useless.
what a waste of a nice idea, and a slap in the face for everyone that was counting on it for accessibility.
But if you don't have to use those buff abilities anymore then you can go all in on the highest damage abilities. Buffs is a good route. Initially I was apprehensive but if they make my suggested tweaks then it would be in a really good spot.
Like others have said, making it useless on werewolf isn't a fix.
You can get most of those buffs from class skills, there is no point in giving up the second bar for bonus you already can have.
Do you understand opportunity cost? You now no longer need to run those class skills, and can run other skills. Perhaps you want more DPS, you can now run the highest DPS skills instead of skills that you need major buffs from on a limited bar space because you only have 1 bar. Or maybe you want mobility or utility skills. By giving most of the Buffs you need on the mythic it gives more options on what skills you can run.0 -
Patro✭✭✭BroughBreaux wrote: »simplest solution was to make it not applicable to a transformed player. giving buffs that you can get from a pot or other skill that likely was otherwise already on your bar is useless.
what a waste of a nice idea, and a slap in the face for everyone that was counting on it for accessibility.
But if you don't have to use those buff abilities anymore then you can go all in on the highest damage abilities. Buffs is a good route. Initially I was apprehensive but if they make my suggested tweaks then it would be in a really good spot.
Like others have said, making it useless on werewolf isn't a fix.
You can get most of those buffs from class skills, there is no point in giving up the second bar for bonus you already can have.
Do you understand opportunity cost? You now no longer need to run those class skills, and can run other skills. Perhaps you want more DPS, you can now run the highest DPS skills instead of skills that you need major buffs from on a limited bar space because you only have 1 bar. Or maybe you want mobility or utility skills. By giving most of the Buffs you need on the mythic it gives more options on what skills you can run.
I'd rather have the extra costs to use the skills needed to get those buffs than give up the second bar and all that that implies, like losing 2 pieces of the set, second weapon, second ultimate, etc.0 -
Yarcanine✭✭✭BroughBreaux wrote: »simplest solution was to make it not applicable to a transformed player. giving buffs that you can get from a pot or other skill that likely was otherwise already on your bar is useless.
what a waste of a nice idea, and a slap in the face for everyone that was counting on it for accessibility.
But if you don't have to use those buff abilities anymore then you can go all in on the highest damage abilities. Buffs is a good route. Initially I was apprehensive but if they make my suggested tweaks then it would be in a really good spot.
Like others have said, making it useless on werewolf isn't a fix.
You can get most of those buffs from class skills, there is no point in giving up the second bar for bonus you already can have.
Do you understand opportunity cost? You now no longer need to run those class skills, and can run other skills. Perhaps you want more DPS, you can now run the highest DPS skills instead of skills that you need major buffs from on a limited bar space because you only have 1 bar. Or maybe you want mobility or utility skills. By giving most of the Buffs you need on the mythic it gives more options on what skills you can run.
I'd rather have the extra costs to use the skills needed to get those buffs than give up the second bar and all that that implies, like losing 2 pieces of the set, second weapon, second ultimate, etc.
I'm not sure what we're even debating here. If you're trying to say a well designed 2 bar build is better than a 1 bar build then yeah, ofcourse it is. This mythic is for players that for whatever reason prefer only using 1 bar and to make that kind of playstyle more viable, not to make it as good or better than 2 bars. You generally run buffs on the backbar so if the purpose of the ring is to somewhat replace a backbar it makes the most intuitive sense to just put those buffs on the ring since you have limited barspace as it is to run other skills.1 -
Patro✭✭✭BroughBreaux wrote: »simplest solution was to make it not applicable to a transformed player. giving buffs that you can get from a pot or other skill that likely was otherwise already on your bar is useless.
what a waste of a nice idea, and a slap in the face for everyone that was counting on it for accessibility.
But if you don't have to use those buff abilities anymore then you can go all in on the highest damage abilities. Buffs is a good route. Initially I was apprehensive but if they make my suggested tweaks then it would be in a really good spot.
Like others have said, making it useless on werewolf isn't a fix.
You can get most of those buffs from class skills, there is no point in giving up the second bar for bonus you already can have.
Do you understand opportunity cost? You now no longer need to run those class skills, and can run other skills. Perhaps you want more DPS, you can now run the highest DPS skills instead of skills that you need major buffs from on a limited bar space because you only have 1 bar. Or maybe you want mobility or utility skills. By giving most of the Buffs you need on the mythic it gives more options on what skills you can run.
I'd rather have the extra costs to use the skills needed to get those buffs than give up the second bar and all that that implies, like losing 2 pieces of the set, second weapon, second ultimate, etc.
I'm not sure what we're even debating here. If you're trying to say a well designed 2 bar build is better than a 1 bar build then yeah, ofcourse it is. This mythic is for players that for whatever reason prefer only using 1 bar and to make that kind of playstyle more viable, not to make it as good or better than 2 bars. You generally run buffs on the backbar so if the purpose of the ring is to somewhat replace a backbar it makes the most intuitive sense to just put those buffs on the ring since you have limited barspace as it is to run other skills.
I have little experience in pve but i'm sure that in pvp creating an effective build using only one bar would be really hard, so this effort should be rewarded by having a considerable advantage from this mythic.0 -
buttaface✭✭✭✭✭Do you understand opportunity cost?
Apparently many don't understand opportunity cost because many who reference it omit that not only are you giving up your back bar but a different, better mythic also... they also omit the lost infused weapon damage glyph on the back bar OR the elemental enchant and trait on the front bar if they keep the infused berserker there... they omit the backbar arena weapon OR the front bar set weapon if an arena weapon is on the one bar... they omit that many of the buffs on the overnerfed item are got from things like free crown pots or class skills...they omit that WW form has no ult, no arena weapons, only -one- build, no CC break, expensive heal, expensive skills generally, is not optimal for any content in the game just funzie and RP.
Yeah, lots of people do in fact understand opportunity cost, and more importantly the necessity of including ALL material context when calculating it.
1 -
MashmalloMan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Do you understand opportunity cost?
Apparently many don't understand opportunity cost because many who reference it omit that not only are you giving up your back bar but a different, better mythic also... they also omit the lost infused weapon damage glyph on the back bar OR the elemental enchant and trait on the front bar if they keep the infused berserker there... they omit the backbar arena weapon OR the front bar set weapon if an arena weapon is on the one bar... they omit that many of the buffs on the overnerfed item are got from things like free crown pots or class skills...they omit that WW form has no ult, no arena weapons, only -one- build, no CC break, expensive heal, expensive skills generally, is not optimal for any content in the game just funzie and RP.
Yeah, lots of people do in fact understand opportunity cost, and more importantly the necessity of including ALL material context when calculating it.
Your quoting someone who I'm pretty sure plays Werewolf daily. Difference is they're trying to be balanced and objective.
WW skills are overloaded to account for only having 1 bar, they have extra effects that combo into each other or do different things in different scenario's. They are objectively stronger than regular skills if they were universally available. They are loaded with common buffs to cover the fact that they only have 1 bar. WW has passive increases built in.
Do WW's need work? Maybe, but the ring isn't the solution. A gear item should never be the solution. (Looking at Necro's and Dark Convergence).
Even in the current state of the mythic, it gives a unique and constant 3.7k stam, mag and hp which is better than DDFs 2.6k that requires build up and for you to be in combat.
You bring up an infused damage enchant, but fail to mention it requires you to manage that uptime with a skill that you cast instead of something on your front bar.
What about the ease of play reducing the actions necessary a WW does to 5 skills vs 12 skills. The buff rotations typical builds follow to keep up sustain, mitigation, speed, and healing up to deal damage or survive. No duh, they have benefits to the added complexity, but WW argueably has less to think about.
Sounds like you're omitting context too, you bring up good points, then fail to mention 1s that hurt your narrative.
I think @Yarcanine is being pretty objective about this (although, I think Evasion and Expedition are overkill on their idea). The previous iteration of the ring was way too strong, something in the middle of the new and old would be ideal. Some named buffs, some unique, this way there is some overlap for WW making it balanced for them, while allowing non WW builds similar ease of access to skill diversity on their limited bar space.
Last thing I'll say is.. if this item buffs WW's too much, you will never run another mythic on WW ever again. Even in the current state, there is absolutely no reason to run Death Dealers Fete or Gaze of Sithis. Where is the opportunity/cost in that? There is at least some build diversity in what you choose now on live(PVP), it would of been a nightmare with the first weeks version of the item.Edited by MashmalloMan on May 7, 2022 9:34PMPC Beta - 2200+ CP
Stam Sorc Khajiit PvE/PVP Main || Stam Sorc Dark Elf PvP ||
Stam Templar Dark Elf || Stam Warden Wood Elf || Stam DK Nord || Stam Necro Orc || Stam Blade Khajiit
Mag Sorc High Elf || Mag Templar High Elf || Mag Warden Breton || Mag Necro Khajiit || Mag Blade Khajiit1 -
Yarcanine✭✭✭MashmalloMan wrote: »Do you understand opportunity cost?
Apparently many don't understand opportunity cost because many who reference it omit that not only are you giving up your back bar but a different, better mythic also... they also omit the lost infused weapon damage glyph on the back bar OR the elemental enchant and trait on the front bar if they keep the infused berserker there... they omit the backbar arena weapon OR the front bar set weapon if an arena weapon is on the one bar... they omit that many of the buffs on the overnerfed item are got from things like free crown pots or class skills...they omit that WW form has no ult, no arena weapons, only -one- build, no CC break, expensive heal, expensive skills generally, is not optimal for any content in the game just funzie and RP.
Yeah, lots of people do in fact understand opportunity cost, and more importantly the necessity of including ALL material context when calculating it.
Your quoting someone who I'm pretty sure plays Werewolf daily. Difference is they're trying to be balanced and objective.
WW skills are overloaded to account for only having 1 bar, they have extra effects that combo into each other or do different things in different scenario's. They are objectively stronger than regular skills if they were universally available. They are loaded with common buffs to cover the fact that they only have 1 bar. WW has passive increases built in.
Do WW's need work? Maybe, but the ring isn't the solution. A gear item should never be the solution. (Looking at Necro's and Dark Convergence).
Even in the current state of the mythic, it gives a unique and constant 3.7k stam, mag and hp which is better than DDFs 2.6k that requires build up and for you to be in combat.
You bring up an infused damage enchant, but fail to mention it requires you to manage that uptime with a skill that you cast instead of something on your front bar.
What about the ease of play reducing the actions necessary a WW does to 5 skills vs 12 skills. The buff rotations typical builds follow to keep up sustain, mitigation, speed, and healing up to deal damage or survive. No duh, they have benefits to the added complexity, but WW argueably has less to think about.
Sounds like you're omitting context too, you bring up good points, then fail to mention 1s that hurt your narrative.
I think @Yarcanine is being pretty objective about this (although, I think Evasion and Expedition are overkill on their idea). The previous iteration of the ring was way too strong, something in the middle of the new and old would be ideal. Some named buffs, some unique, this way there is some overlap for WW making it balanced for them, while allowing non WW builds similar ease of access to skill diversity on their limited bar space.
Last thing I'll say is.. if this item buffs WW's too much, you will never run another mythic on WW ever again. Even in the current state, there is absolutely no reason to run Death Dealers Fete or Gaze of Sithis. Where is the opportunity/cost in that? There is at least some build diversity in what you choose now on live(PVP), it would of been a nightmare with the first weeks version of the item.
Yeah werewolf has strong abilities but it lacks some of the basics that any good PvP build needs. Namely a good HoT, an execute/burst ability, and no real mobility/snare removal skill. Definitely needs buffs or a rework. I agree that 1 mythic shouldn't be the answer though, but I just don't see any big changes coming to WW any time soon.
Keep in mind with this ring you wont be running Sithis, thats 4000 armor and 1025 recovery gone making WW quite a bit squishier. Main reason I'm suggesting Evasion is because with the current ring giving you major recoveries you can run armor pots giving you 5280 armor against all types of damage not just AoE. With the proposed changes removing recoveries from the ring you would be going back to tristat potions and losing the armor buff, evasion being a buff usually ran on the backbar seems like the most intuitive replacement for this. There's also major protection which I guess would also be a suitable replacement but it's not really a backbar buff.
Expedition is probably the most questionable buff on there but the reason I suggest it is because it's also usually put on the backbar and you can already have good uptime on this by using bow as your weapon in WW form because the roll dodge passive is one of the few that actually carries over. With WW not having a snare removal or mobility skill its 30% built in speed isn't much help, especially since expedition is an easy buff to gain access to on most builds with many sources. Having expedition won't make you unkillable.
To address the point that in order to have high uptime on these kinds of buffs on a 2bar build it requires a lot of input/APM; yes but this is the entire purpose of this item. The whole reason you would run this item is because you are unable/unwilling to put in the required apm to perform at a high level on a 2bar build. That's the trade off, it's still possible to have 100% uptime on these buffs on a 2bar if you are good enough. Your reward for doing so is having a stronger build with more potential and versatility. Even if the ring went live with the proposed changes a good player on a well designed build will blow a 1bar player with this ring out of the water.Edited by Yarcanine on May 8, 2022 6:13PM0
